Observations of a Spiritual Kind

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
Have you noticed how the record of Moses’ birth is short but the record of Exodus 2:2 uses a phrase that seems to carry special emphasis. “he was a goodly child”. Stephen describes Moses in Acts 7:20 as being “exceedingly fair”. Hebrews 11:23 reads that Moses was “a proper child”. The Greek word for proper is the same as fair in Acts 7:20.

Have you ever noticed that when scripture places emphasis on the birth and early years of a child it is because the individual is going to play a significant role in the purpose of Yahweh.

There was Samuel, Samson, John the Baptist, Jesus.

We often think when we read the record of Moses being hid by his parents when he was a baby that it was simply the love of mother wanting to protect her son. Yet we can not help but think that Amram and Jochebed may have received some sort of insight that this baby was going to play a role in the deliverance of Israel.

Could it be possible that they received a vision or a dream that this baby boy was the one? We are not told are we?

Hebrews 11:23 “by faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months by his parents, because they saw that he was a proper child”?

Whose faith is being referred to? Amram and Jochebed’s?

We are told very little of the first 40 years of Moses’ life that he lived in Egypt. The best account we have is once again in Acts 7:21,22 Jochebed would no doubt taught Moses of the Jewish way of life and of the God of Israel. Of the promises that were made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and how the 400 year period was coming to a conclusion. Moses may have seen himself as a man of destiny, the one who would lead them out of Egypt.

Egypt at this time was the centre of culture and learning. Stephen reveals to us that Moses was a man of the age, he had the wisdom of Egypt, he was well spoken and it would appear that he was a leader. Scripture does not tell us, yet in Jewish secular history has recorded that Moses was a leader of the Egyptian military and won many significant battles. Moses was a prince in Egypt possibly next in line to the throne of Egypt. Moses had the world in the palm of his hand.

Stephen tells us that when Moses was 40 years old he had a desire to visit his people; his brothers and sisters. The Israelites. We need to be conscious, was not just a casual visit. Moses made a deliberate decision and it was not decision made by a thrill seeking teenager. Moses was 40 years old and he made a public declaration that he was going to associate himself with the Israelites. Heb. 11:24,25,26,27 Notice the terms used; “Choosing to suffer affliction”, “ the reproach of Christ”, not fearing the wrath of the king” and “he endured”. Moses walked away from everything that Egypt had to offer. He did not want the patronage that his position entitled him to, quite different from those of our political leaders today. His Egyptian friends would have thought him to be crazy. The Pharaoh when he heard that Moses had killed an Egyptian and protected the Israelite wanted to kill Moses.

William Barcley in his commentary, New Testament Words in connection with Hebrews 11:26 wrote; “He had respect unto the recompence of the reward, or as the RSV renders it, he looked to the reward. The Greek term conveys the idea “to look away, or to turn one’s attention from everything that might distrace and to fix the gaze on one thing alone.”” Moses looked beyond the material things of his day to the things associated with Yahweh’s people, and Yahweh’s purpose. He had full confidence in the invisible God.

Moses may have felt that his action against the Egyptian would have been viewed as a rallying call to his people to follow him as a leader. His attempt to mediate between the two Israelites would have convinced him that this thought was not to be. He had thrown at him in Exodus 2:14 “Who made you a prince and a judge over us?” The lesson that Moses had to learn was that the Israelites were not going to be delivered by human strength and influence. He had to realize that if the Israelites were going to be delivered it was going to be according to Yahweh’s schedule and they would be delivered Yahweh’s way. At the age of 40 years Moses had not been groomed by Yahweh for the task of leading Israel. Moses may have been confused, possibly upset but the time was not right and he headed to Midian where the second 40 years of his life were lived.

The Divine hand lead Moses to the household of Jethro who would become his father-in-law. Once again we are not told, but there is a possibility that Jethro could have been a descendant of Abraham and Keturah through their son Midian. (Genesis 25:1,2 ) It is possible that Jethro was a worshipper of Yahweh and if this was the case Moses could have had a natural attraction to Jethro. But Moses never was really comfortable, never settled in Midian. When his first son was born in Exodus 2:22 we are told that the boy’s name was Gershom. There is a note in the King James margin that indicates that Gershom means “a stranger here”. It was while in the land Midian that Moses was groomed by Yahweh for the commission of leading Israel. We can not help but think that Moses had to learn patience and the importance of waiting on Yahweh’s schedule.

The call finally came in Exodus 3:10 But the man who responses to Yahweh’s call has changed from when he lived in Pharaoh’s house. He is no longer the man who was eloquent in speech and mighty in deeds. After 40 years in Midian he now needs the reassurance of Yahweh that He would be with him. Five times in Exodus 3 the phrase “I have sent thee” is used. Moses has come to the realization that it is Yahweh who is to bring Israel out of Egypt and not him. There is an amazing confession in Exodus 4:10. from the man who was raised as Pharaoh’s grandson, who was once mighty in words and deeds.

We may feel that Moses’ reluctance to take on the commission of leading Israel out of Egypt is showing a weak character. This would be a mistake. The way he presented himself in front of Pharaoh and how he lead the people of Israel show him as one of, if not the greatest man; other then Jesus, in the sight of Yahweh. Listen to the testimony that is given in Number 12 when Aaron and Miriam challenged the leadership of Moses’. This is the response of God. Exod 4:5-9 In verse 3 Moses is described as being meek. His reaction to the exhibited jealously of Aaron and Miriam truly illustrates the mind and spirit of the man as he prays for Miriam’s recovery from leprosy. He has no resentment, we do not see any bitterness. Instead we see a spirit of forgiveness. His primary interest was for the honour of his God and the welfare of the people who had been entrusted to him.

The Numbers account provides us an insight to the mind and spirit of Moses in chapter 11. In chapter 11 Moses was told that Eldad and Medad were prophesying in the camp and Joshua was upset that the honour of Moses had been challenged. The result was that Joshua was rebuked. V 29 ESV “But Moses said to Joshua, Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD’s people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!” Moses’ action on behalf of the people of Israel and especially for his brother Aaron is another example of Moses’ suppression of any personal ambitions or goals in order that the glory of Yahweh might be the centre of focus. Exodus 32 is the record of the incident of the golden calf. Yahweh was ready to remove the people of Israel from the face of the earth and achieve His purpose by making from the descendants Moses a great nation. It would have been from a human perspective an offer that one could not refuse. What an honour for Moses. Yahweh from time to time tests His servants by placing them in a such a situation to develop unseen qualities they possess. To shape or mold the
individual into something or someone that He can use to accomplish His purpose. The response of Moses is stellar. His first thought is the honour of Yahweh. Exodus 32:9-14 What is significant is what the record of Exodus does not tell us. Moses recounts the episode of the golden calf in Deuteronomy 9 and reveals details not recorded in Exodus. Deuteronomy 9 reveals to us that Moses was afraid of how great the anger of Yahweh was at this time. Realizing the severity of the situation Moses immediately acted on behalf of the people of Israel and especially on behalf of his brother Aaron. Yahweh was prepared not only to destroy Israel but He was ready to remove all records of their existence. It was a desperate time brothers and sisters. It took a move of courage and of faith on the part of Moses to save both Israel and Aaron. It is difficult for us to fully appreciate just how desperate the situation was and possibly even the Deuteronomy record does not provide us a complete understanding. We have another passage of scripture where we are told what it took to remove the anger of Yahweh at this moment of time. Psalm 106 is an account of the exodus and in verse 23 we are told what it took. Psalm 106:23

The phrase “Moses stood before Yahweh in the breach” is truly staggering brothers and sisters in what it means. Yahweh gave strict instructions in Exodus 19 on how the people and the priests were to conduct themselves, so that He, Yahweh, would not break through and destroy Israel. The idea was that God would make a breach in the protective wall that surrounded them, He would break through and in anger and destroy them. This is what occurred to Uzzah when he put out his hand to steady the ark. The record in 2 Samuel 6:8 tells us that Yahweh made a breach on him and in His anger broke through and destroyed Uzzah. The anger of Yahweh due to Israel’s idolatry, in Exodus 32 had reached the boiling point, the judgments of God were about to be unleashed, a breach had been created. Moses at the last second stepped into that breach or filled that breach and the anger of Yahweh was turned away. We find it difficult to find appropriate words to describe the courage, the boldness of Moses. It is difficult to appreciate his understanding of the character of Yahweh that allowed him to make such an impulsive and dangerous decision to intercede on behalf of the people of Israel. Moses stepped into the breach, the welfare of the people entrusted to his care was paramount.

The final episode of his life illustrates just how remarkable a man Moses was. He was told in Numbers 20:12 “Because you did not believe me, to uphold me as holy in the eyes of the people of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them”. There had to be a disappointment that not many have ever felt. Yet again there was no bitterness or resentment in his heart. His continued and only thought was for the people entrusted to him, the people he lead for the last 40 years. Numbers 27:16-17 Moses was a true Sheppard and his primary thought was for the flock. In response to his plea Yahweh set Joshua over the people and it was to Joshua that the commission of bringing Israel into the Promised Land was given.

There has not been another individual, other then the Lord Jesus Christ, who had such a close and intimate relationship with Yahweh. Moses spoke to Yahweh face to face as one would speak with his friend. His one longing in life was to know God. “Now therefore, if I have found favour in your sight, please show me now your ways, that I may know you in order to find favour in your sight”. Exodus 33:13 His request to see the glory of Yahweh was granted. Yahweh said to Moses; “there is a place by me” Exod 33:21 and there hid in the cleft of the rock Yahweh allow all of His glory to pass by and declared His name to Moses. We may not have the same intimate relationship with Yahweh as Moses did, but in the Lord Jesus Christ, as have read this past week from Hebrews 10, we can approach His throne of grace with boldness and we also can have a place by Him, a fellowship, that through His word gives us an understanding of the character of our God so that we may come to know Him and like Moses treasure the eternal things that have been promised to those who love Him.

Amen
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
This thinking was not new to the story of Moses.
Have you ever read the story of the birth of Noah from 1-Enoch?

Enoch 105 [CV] 1-20 ~ The Birth of Noah
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/bep/bep07.htm


Not that I suggest the above should be considered "canon" or anything like that but that the "Hebrew mindset" presented in the writing is actually much older than anything even found in our modern Bibles, (unless you happen to use the Septuagint). Fragments of the "Book of Noah" were found at Qumran, (second century BC material). The point is that, yes, this is not something new concerning Moses, and yes, there is more to the story of his birth which, although not found in the text of Exodus, surely is implied in text of Exodus. Not to change the topic but to enhance the perspective whichever direction you are taking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Noah

Jethro is not the only name written of the father-in-law of Moses but the Priest of Midian was also called Reuel. Reu'el means "friend of God" ('El) and is the same which comes from Reu which means friend, (Genesis 11:18). Reu was the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Salah, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem. Some say that the Melchizedek line of priests came by Shem and some even go further to suggest that Shem was himself Melchizedek. Whether this is true or not really is inconsequential to the point which is that it is extremely likely that Reuel-Jethro, the priest of Midian, represents the Melchizedek line which Moses then married into.

R`uw'el = "Friend of God" (Exodus 2:18)
Yithrow = "His Excellence"

"Moshe and Aharon among his kohanim-priests; heard of 'El in calling upon his name: they cried unto YHWH, and he answered them. In the pillar of cloud he spoke unto them: they hedged about his statutes, and the ordinance that he gave them" . . . (Psalms 99:6-7) :)
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
daq said:
This thinking was not new to the story of Moses.
Have you ever read the story of the birth of Noah from 1-Enoch?

Enoch 105 [CV] 1-20 ~ The Birth of Noah
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/bep/bep07.htm


Not that I suggest the above should be considered "canon" or anything like that but that the "Hebrew mindset" presented in the writing is actually much older than anything even found in our modern Bibles, (unless you happen to use the Septuagint). Fragments of the "Book of Noah" were found at Qumran, (second century BC material). The point is that, yes, this is not something new concerning Moses, and yes, there is more to the story of his birth which, although not found in the text of Exodus, surely is implied in text of Exodus. Not to change the topic but to enhance the perspective whichever direction you are taking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Noah

Jethro is not the only name written of the father-in-law of Moses but the Priest of Midian was also called Reuel. Reu'el means "friend of God" ('El) and is the same which comes from Reu which means friend, (Genesis 11:18). Reu was the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Salah, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem. Some say that the Melchizedek line of priests came by Shem and some even go further to suggest that Shem was himself Melchizedek. Whether this is true or not really is inconsequential to the point which is that it is extremely likely that Reuel-Jethro, the priest of Midian, represents the Melchizedek line which Moses then married into.

R`uw'el = "Friend of God" (Exodus 2:18)
Yithrow = "His Excellence"

"Moshe and Aharon among his kohanim-priests; heard of 'El in calling upon his name: they cried unto YHWH, and he answered them. In the pillar of cloud he spoke unto them: they hedged about his statutes, and the ordinance that he gave them" . . . (Psalms 99:6-7) :)
Daq, if you would like to PM me an email address I did a PPT on Numbers 10 which I believe you would greatly enjoy.
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
Purity said:
Daq, if you would like to PM me an email address I did a PPT on Numbers 10 which I believe you would greatly enjoy.
If you take the contact link provided in my profile here you will find my email, (the spinning globe) at the top of that page.
Here are some other things that you might find helpful in this study:

Genesis 6:14-18 KJV
14. Make thee an ark [HSN#8392 tebah] of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch [HSN#3722 kaphar] it within and without with pitch [HSN#3724 kopher].
15. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
16. A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.
17. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
18. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.


Original Strong's Ref. #8392
Romanized tebah
Pronounced tay-baw'
perhaps of foreign derivation; a box:
KJV--ark.

Original Strong's Ref. #3722
Romanized kaphar
Pronounced kaw-far'
a primitive root; to cover (specifically with bitumen); figuratively, to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel:
KJV--appease, make (an atonement, cleanse, disannul, forgive, be merciful, pacify, pardon, purge (away), put off, (make) reconcile(-liation).

BDB Strong's Hebrew Definition for #03722
03722 // rpk // kaphar // kaw-far' //
a primitive root; TWOT - 1023,1024,1025,1026; v
AV - atonement 71, purge 7, reconciliation 4, reconcile 3, forgive 3, purge away 2, pacify 2, atonement...made 2, merciful 2, cleansed 1, disannulled 1, appease 1, put off 1, pardon 1, pitch 1; 102
1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch
1a) (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch
1b) (Piel)
1b1) to cover over, pacify, propitiate
1b2) to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for
1b3) to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites
1c) (Pual)
1c1) to be covered over
1c2) to make atonement for
1d) (Hithpael) to be covered

Original Strong's Ref. #3724
Romanized kopher
Pronounced ko'-fer
from HSN3722; properly, a cover, i.e. (literally) a village (as covered in); (specifically) bitumen (as used for coating), and the henna plant (as used for dyeing); figuratively, a redemption-price:
KJV--bribe, camphire, pitch, ransom, satisfaction, sum of money, village.

BDB Strong's Hebrew Definition for #03724
03724 // rpk // kopher // ko'-fer //
from 03722 ; TWOT - 1025b; n m
AV - ransom 8, satisfaction 2, bribe 2, camphire 2, pitch 1, sum of money 1, village 1; 17
1) price of a life, ransom, bribe
2) asphalt, pitch (as a covering)
3) the henna plant, name of a plant (henna?)
4) village

Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt kaphar-"atone-cover" it within and without in kopher-"red tar pitch"-atonement-"ransom price"-covering.

Exodus 2:1-3 KJV
1. And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took to wife a daughter of Levi.
2. And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he was a goodly child, she hid him three months.
3. And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark [HSN#8392 tebah] of bulrushes, and daubed [HSN#2560 chamar] it with slime [HSN#2564 chemar] and with pitch, [HSN#2203 zepheth] and put the child therein; and she laid it in the flags by the river's brink.


Original Strong's Ref. #2560
Romanized chamar
Pronounced khaw-mar'
a primitive root; properly, to boil up; hence, to ferment (with scum); to glow (with redness); as denominative (from HSN2564) to smear with pitch:
KJV--daub, befoul, be red, trouble.

Original Strong's Ref. #2564
Romanized chemar
Pronounced khay-mawr'
from HSN2560; bitumen (as rising to the surface):
KJV--slime(-pit).

Original Strong's Ref. #2203
Romanized zepheth
Pronounced zeh'-feth
from an unused root (meaning to liquify); asphalt (from its tendency to soften in the sun):
KJV--pitch. #ziq or zeq. See HSN2131.


Do not let the large definitions distract from what is being said in the symbolism of these passages. The words used for the "pitch" which "covered" the ark-basket of Moses may have different meanings but the results are the quite the same regarding the symbolism of the Ark of Noah and the Ark of Moses. Thus, the Covenant to Noah and all flesh is symbolically "folded" into Moses, (one covenant does not annul the previous covenant but rather adds to the former just as the Law did not annul the covenant with Abraham). The Tebah-Arks of both Noah and Moses were pitched within and without with the "red-tar" typology of atonement blood. :)




Shabbat Shalom Purity,
Having just read all of your presentation, concerning Numbers 10, I must say that it was very astute and thank you. We can discuss it here if you desire or not if you desire not. Here are some things that you may find consequential to this thread but, if I remember correctly, we do not share the same understanding of "angels" or messengers. Please remember that these things are written and given in parables, allegories, idioms, and similitudes. Hobab does not say to Moses that he will not "go" but rather that he would not "walk except but to his own land" (HSN#3588 kiy, HSN#518 'im - "except but") and the tell tale sign that this is the correct understanding is not just the word employed but also because this is what Barak says to Deborah the "prophetess" (Spirit) in the same passage where Hobab is again mentioned. In addition it does not say that Hobab still refused Moses after he beseeched once more in Numbers 10:32, in fact, "they" then departed three days journey from the mount, (v.33).

Numbers 10:29-33 KJV
29. And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Raguel the Midianite, Moses' father in law, [HSN#2859 cathan] We are journeying unto the place of which the Lord said, I will give it you: come thou with us, and we will do thee good: for the Lord hath spoken good concerning Israel.
30. And he said unto him,
I will not go; [HSN#3212 yalak] but [kiy 'im - "except but"] I will depart [not in the text] to mine own land, and to my kindred.
31. And he said, Leave us not, I pray thee; forasmuch as thou knowest how we are to encamp in the wilderness, and thou mayest be to us instead of eyes.
32. And it shall be, if thou go with us, yea, it shall be, that what goodness the Lord shall do unto us, the same will we do unto thee.
33. And they departed from the mount of the Lord three days' journey: and the ark of the covenant of the Lord went before them in the three days' journey, to search out a resting place for them.


Original Strong's Ref. #2859
Romanized chathan
Pronounced khaw-than'
a primitive root; to give (a daughter) away in marriage; hence (generally) to contract affinity by marriage:
KJV--join in affinity, father in law, make marriages, mother in law, son in law.


Original Strong's Ref. #3212
Romanized yalak
Pronounced yaw-lak'
a primitive root [compare HSN1980]; to walk (literally or figuratively); causatively, to carry (in various senses):
KJV--X again, away, bear, bring, carry (away), come (away), depart, flow, + follow(-ing), get (away, hence, him),
(cause to, made) go (away, -ing, -ne, one's way, out), grow, lead (forth), let down, march, prosper, + pursue, cause to run, spread, take away ([-journey]), vanish, (cause to) walk(-ing), wax, X be weak.

Ha Torah was given by "the disposition" of angels-messengers ~ Acts 7:53
Hobab of Ragu'el sojourned with Moses who likewise gave Joshua the charge and anointing.
The name "Raguel" is certainly found in the older Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures:

Number 10:29-32 LXX Septuagint (Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton 1851)
29 An
d Moses said to Obab the son of Raguel the Madianite, the father-in-law of Moses, We are going forward to the place concerning which the Lord said, This will I give to you: Come with us, and we will do thee good, for the Lord has spoken good concerning Israel. 30 And he said to him, I will not go, but I will go to my land and to my kindred. 31 And he said, Leave us not, because thou hast been with us in the wilderness, and thou shalt be an elder among us. 32 And it shall come to pass if thou wilt go with us, it shall even come to pass that in whatsoever things the Lord shall do us good, we will also do thee good.
http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Numbers/index.htm

Numbers 10:29 Greek OT: Septuagint - Transliterated
29 kai eipen mōusēs tō iōbab uiō ragouēl tō madianitē tō gambrō mōusē eξairomen ēmeis eis ton topon on eipen kurios touton dōsō umin deuro meth' ēmōn kai eu se poiēsomen oti kurios elalēsen kala peri israēl

http://biblehub.com/sept/numbers/10.htm

Raguel is again mentioned in several other "non-canonical" Hebrew writings. However, because of the modern teachings concerning angels, or more properly messengers, most of what is written concerning such things has been "expunged" from what is now considered canon. Raguel appears again in Tobit as a man and also in 1-Enoch, ("Ethiopian") which is the same Book of Enoch for which portions and fragments were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls of the Essenes at Damascus-Qumran, (Qumran was called "Damascus" by the Essenes of that particular communal sect out in the desert oasis at the northern rim of the Dead Sea). Again remember those are written and given in
parables, allegories, idioms, and similitudes. The lower portion of my comments I have removed, (in case you did not desire to take that direction). :)
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
daq said:
Genesis 6:14-18 KJV
14. Make thee an ark [HSN#8392 tebah] of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch [HSN#3722 kaphar] it within and without with pitch [HSN#3724 kopher].
15. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
16. A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.
17. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
18. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.


Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt kaphar-"atone-cover" it within and without in kopher-"red tar pitch"-atonement-"ransom price"-covering.


Do not let the large definitions distract from what is being said in the symbolism of these passages. The words used for the "pitch" which "covered" the ark-basket of Moses may have different meanings but the results are the quite the same regarding the symbolism of the Ark of Noah and the Ark of Moses. Thus, the Covenant to Noah and all flesh is symbolically "folded" into Moses, (one covenant does not annul the previous covenant but rather adds to the former just as the Law did not annul the covenant with Abraham). The Tebah-Arks of both Noah and Moses were pitched within and without with the "red-tar" typology of atonement blood. :)
Yes I have long enjoyed the lessons you present above.

The Hebrew word for "pitch" is kopher, covering (as you rightly state) - "thou shalt cover it with a covering". The vessel was caulked for safety. What was used for that purpose we are not specifically told; but it could well have been bitumen, or the resin from trees. The fact we need to heed is that it was required to be covered. The word used to describe this, kopher, is the same word that is used for the covering of sins. It is rendered "ransom" (Exo 30:12; Isa 43:3; Job 33:24). In its plural form kappurim it is translated "atonement" (Exo 29:36; Exo 30:10; Exo 30:16; Lev 23:27; Lev 25:9). As kapporeth, it is used of the mercy seat, the covering of the ark of judgment. The "covering" made the ark watertight, and thus held back the waters of judgment. The covering in Christ (Gal 3:26-29) does likewise by providing a means for the forgiveness of sins.

If it were red-tar as you say the type is fulfilled beautifully. :)

daq said:
Shabbat Shalom Purity,

Having just read all of your presentation, concerning Numbers 10, I must say that it was very astute and thank you. We can discuss it here if you desire or not if you desire not.
Doubtless I will be asked to give this study at some future time, so any information you can add will be gracefully received. How did you find the divine order in Numbers 10? The methodology of teaching fits perfectly with our psyche...not surprising seeing He is our Maker and knows our frame.

I should add if other forum members would like a copy of the ppt on Numbers 10 I can be emailed at alethosis@gmaildotcom.

I recall a brother commenting prior to the study "I don't know what you are going to get out of that chapter?" and yet if we develop its depth we shall be revealed greater insight, especially carrying the theme into the New Testament where it really shines.

Purity
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
1) Spirit is literal and I know of a certainty that likewise what you call "Armageddon" is real but not the way that you currently perceive it. 2) Not sure what you mean by "resurrected flesh nature". Put to death the "flesh nature" because if you do not he will kill you at Armageddon. 3) Absolutely not, however, "Israel" is not a location on a map but rather Israel is the man Jacob and his twelve sons. 4) Yeshua is seated on the throne of David now because the throne of David is my heart. It was a indescribably beautiful dawn in the morning that the Day Star rose up from the Anatole sun rising and sealed me forever, (by the way lightning does not flash all the way across the sky as far as the east is from the west but rather only the perfectly straight first rays of light from the morning dawn can do such a thing). 5) Have you not read that the first day beside the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as day one? Beware lest you be found a grumbler, complainer, or a murmurer, like the children of Israel which died off in the wilderness. What if your first visitation from the Lord has already occurred when you were first introduced to him and became a babe in the kingdom? The Lord appeared twice unto Solomon and "the Preacher" then wrote in the end that he knew what it was to live "a thousand years twice told".

Quote Purity]"There will be no displacing the Jews"[End quote.

Priests have absolutely no inheritance in any physical land whatsoever; likewise, in this world, we have no continuing city.

Quote Purity]"Have we taken part in the campaigns of Christ to subdue and humble the nations which will end with total subjection of all peoples?"[End quote.

In the doctrine of Yeshua there are seven heathen nations which are the seven mountains with their seven devil-kings:

Deuteronomy 7:1-6
1. When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites,
seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
2. And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
3. Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
4. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.
5. But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire.
6. For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.


Those seven devils and their doctrines I rule with a Rod of Iron, which is Torah, which the Master has put into my hand by the Word of his doctrine which interprets Torah for me in the Gospel accounts. On the throne of my heart is the Son of man, on the throne over him is the Father, and as for myself I was made third ruler of my dominion in the night that Beldak was slain. All of the former kings of my land bow the knee to my Master, his doctrines, and his and my Father. :)
Posted for discussion.
1) Spirit is literal and I know of a certainty that likewise what you call "Armageddon" is real but not the way that you currently perceive it.
Can you explain how I perceive it?
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
Purity said:
Posted for discussion.

Can you explain how I perceive it?
You made it fairly clear in the thread you have quoted but the same is now some thirteen pages long. Why should I be the one to gather up the quotes of what things you stated there? Perhaps we should start fresh and you should explain your own perception of Armageddon if you desire to change directions here? You asked me if I thought Armageddon is real and I say yes it is, ("Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt chamber in the inner chamber to hide thyself", it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living One, blessed be He). :)
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
daq said:
How many verses would be enough?

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


Sorry Daq, as you can see I am not able to keep up with every post and some slip through - its not intentional.

You went on to say

If indeed the prince of the power of the air was cast out of you to begin with then what makes you think that this passage does not apply to you?
Quoting from Eph 2:2 then Eph 5:6 then Lev 16:8,10,26 then quoted Rev 17:11 then 1 John 4:1.

All these passages you used to say this:

If indeed the prince of the power of the air was cast out of you to begin with then what makes you think that this passage does not apply to you? In fact it can only apply to disciples of Yeshua because the unbelievers of the world still have the same spirit of the world which now works in the sons of disobedience. Likewise if your old man scapegoat twin goes and takes to himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they return, then does that not make him "the eighth and of the seven"? Understand likewise that YOU are the former "HOUSE" from whence he came. Therefore we are forewarned to "test the spirits" and their doctrines to see whether they be of God or not.
You proceeded to quote Rev 17 then this

So you see we cannot possibly understand any of this without both Torah and the Testimony of Yeshua which interprets Torah. The one who comes back from the pit of Dudael in the desert is your own `Aza'zel scapegoat with all the sins upon his mortally wounded head, (with two horns like a lamb and speaking like a crafty dragon).
Of this I agree with your premise here "So you see we cannot possibly understand any of this without both Torah and the Testimony of Yeshua which interprets Torah."

You go on to quote John 14:14-19; Mark 16:9 Matt 28:1-2

The End.

Your post was in response

Like I already showed from the Scripture some three or four pages back in this thread: it is when "the fulness of the HEATHEN" have entered in. And when all seven kings have come then that one will know what it means to be "saved", (if indeed he overcomes in that hour) because there is nothing he can do to save himself but bow the knee to his Baal. But whosoever shall seek to save his soul shall lose it. There may even be some twice dead castaway fish right here in this forum for all we know. No joke
Can you perceive the difficulty I have in responding to your post? (said respectfully)

You begin with a record which speaks to Christs parable that responds to their charge that he cast out devils by Beelzebub. Jesus shows that the unclean spirit must be bound before his house can be spoiled.

But within this parable you latch onto the number seven (7) which is doubtless one of the most significant numbers in all Scripture to prove a doctrinal belief which at this present time is vague I must say (again respectfully).

Can you provide the literal event you are speaking too and then apply the spiritual overtones?

Thanks
Purity
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
Start with the "prince of the power of the air" which Paul mentions in Ephesians 2:2, (and remember the context of Ephesians 2 which concerns the covenants of promise and the commonwealth of Israel). All of my answers come from the Scripture and we should understand that likewise do all of those things spoken through the Apostles and authors in all of the New Testament writings. The NT authors write with a heavy background in O/T-Torah-Tanak and those things they view through the "lens" of the Testimony of Yeshua, (that was all they had at their disposal and likewise all they needed). Therefore who or what is Paul speaking of when he writes of the "prince of the power of the air"? You will find that one in Genesis 10:1-4, Leviticus 16, Leviticus 17:7, Deuteronomy 28:49-50, Isaiah 34:14, and Daniel 8. However, if one does not consider himself or herself one of "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" then I suppose the same would have no need to believe that these things apply to themselves. :)
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
Start with the "prince of the power of the air" which Paul mentions in Ephesians 2:2, (and remember the context of Ephesians 2 which concerns the covenants of promise and the commonwealth of Israel). All of my answers come from the Scripture and we should understand that likewise do all of those things spoken through the Apostles and authors in all of the New Testament writings. The NT authors write with a heavy background in O/T-Torah-Tanak and those things they view through the "lens" of the Testimony of Yeshua, (that was all they had at their disposal and likewise all they needed). Therefore who or what is Paul speaking of when he writes of the "prince of the power of the air"? You will find that one in Genesis 10:1-4, Leviticus 16, Leviticus 17:7, Deuteronomy 28:49-50, Isaiah 34:14, and Daniel 8. However, if one does not consider himself or herself one of "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" then I suppose the same would have no need to believe that these things apply to themselves. :)
Yes, I have already agreed to everything concerning the authenticity of the Divine record and their authority to discern Eph 2:2.

What I am not reading is the notions you (may) infer on the record. Do you have in mind for instance a literal person or a ecclesiastical / political system, are your notions, evil spiritual creatures likened ghosts and goblins?

Put some meat on the bones - show me what was in the mind of the Apostle when putting pen to parchment.

In the Masters service
Purity
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
Purity said:
Yes, I have already agreed to everything concerning the authenticity of the Divine record and their authority to discern Eph 2:2.

What I am not reading is the notions you (may) infer on the record. Do you have in mind for instance a literal person or a ecclesiastical / political system, are your notions, evil spiritual creatures likened ghosts and goblins?

Put some meat on the bones - show me what was in the mind of the Apostle when putting pen to parchment.

In the Masters service
Purity


Meat on the bones eh? ^_^

Daniel 8:5 KJV
5. And as I was considering, behold, an he goat [HSN#6842 tsaphiyr HSN#5795 `ez-`iziym] came from the west on the face of the whole earth,
and touched not the ground: and the goat [HSN#6842 tsaphiyr] had a notable horn between his eyes.

Original Strong's Ref. #6842
Romanized tsaphiyr
Pronounced tsaw-feer'
from HSN6852; a male goat (as prancing):
KJV--(he) goat.

Original Strong's Ref. #5795
Romanized `ez
Pronounced aze
from HSN5810; a she-goat (as strong), but masculine in plural (which also is used ellipt. for goat's hair):
KJV--(she) goat, kid.

This goat comes from the shadows of the West, (Yavan) over the pney-countenance-face of all the earth, (man) and touches not the ground. He is the prince of the power of the air because he touches not the ground. The notable horn between his eyes is himself, his false word, and his god. Thus he has made the frontlets between his eyes himself in opposition to Torat Elohim:

Deuteronomy 11:18-21 KJV
18. Therefore shall ye lay up these my words in your heart and in your soul, and bind them for a sign upon your hand,
that they may be as frontlets between your eyes.
19. And ye shall teach them your children, speaking of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
20. And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates:
21. That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth.


In the next portion this he-goat is called sa`iyr which is a link to the Leviticus passages:

Daniel 8:21 KJV
21. And the rough [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] goat [HSN#6842 tsaphiyr] is the king of Grecia: [HSN#3120 Yavan] and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.


Original Strong's Ref. #8163
Romanized sa`iyr
Pronounced saw-eer'
or sa`ir {saw-eer'}; from HSN8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by analogy, a faun:
KJV--devil, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr.

Leviticus 16:7-10 RSV
7. Then he shall take the two goats, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] and set them before the Lord at the door of the tent of meeting;
8. and Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] one lot for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel [HSN#5799 `aza'zel].
9. And Aaron shall present the goat [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] on which the lot fell for the Lord, and offer it as a sin offering;
10. but the goat [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] on which the lot fell for Azazel [HSN#5799 `aza'zel] shall be presented alive before the Lord to make atonement over it, that it may be sent away into the wilderness to Azazel [HSN#5799 `aza'zel].


Original Strong's Ref. #5799
Romanized `aza'zel
Pronounced az-aw-zale'
from HSN5795 and HSN0235; goat of departure; the scapegoat:
KJV--scapegoat.

The sa`iyr pertains not only to "hairy" and "goat" but in the bad sense devils:

Leviticus 17:3-7 KJV
3. What man soever there be of the house of Israel, that killeth an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or that killeth it out of the camp,
4. And bringeth it not unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, to offer an offering unto the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed unto that man; he hath shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people:
5. To the end that the children of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, even that they may bring them unto the Lord, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, unto the priest, and offer them for peace offerings unto the Lord.
6. And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and burn the fat for a sweet savour unto the Lord.
7. And they shall no more offer their sacrifices unto devils, [HSN#8163 sa`iyr] after whom they have gone a whoring. This shall be a statute for ever unto them throughout their generations.


Anyone who does not bring his offering to the Door of the Tabernacle, (which Door is Messiah) the same then offers up his sacrifices in the name of himself, unto himself, and to the devils of his own vain imagination. The next portion of from the Daniel passage thoroughly establishes this doctrine for those willing to receive it. The sa`iyr devil goat of Yavan has his great horn broken, and this does apply to Alexander the Great but that fact is merely the historical establishment of the typology of the prophecy which now applies to all men in the doctrine of Yeshua. So the great horn is burst-broken, yet the goat is not destroyed, and a small tetrarchy of four lesser horns arise in the head of the goat. In the latter time of this tetrarchy the four smaller horns form a compact or league and from the midst of them one mit-sa`iyrah little horn (Daniel 8:9) rises up from the midst of them:

Daniel 8:22-23 KJV
22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce [HSN#5794 `Az] countenance, [HSN#6440 paniym] and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


This word `Az, (or `Oz) may be taken as a proper name or as simply a description of fierceness, vehement, harsh, or powerful. It really does not matter as far as what is being presented here because the name `Aza'zel is likewise controversial but nevertheless it is what is written in Leviticus 16. This fierce paniym-anthropon-countenance of `Az is the same phrase employed by Moses in the following passage which was also referenced in my previous reply above:

Deuteronomy 28:49-51 KJV
49. The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
50. A nation of fierce [HSN#5794`az] countenance, [HSN#6440 paniym] which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:
51. And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.


So if indeed one desires to be of the lost sheep of the house of Israel then he or she must be willing to take the good with the bad, the honey with the bitter herbs and mustard seed, the sweetness in the mouth with the bitterness of the belly that follows; and put to death his "old man" sin nature anthropon-paniym-countenance of `Az.

HSN#5794 `Az comes from HSN#5810 `azaz and is therefore linked to HSN#5799 `Aza'zel through HSN#5795 `ez. `Aza'zel represent your own scapegoat having two horns like a lamb but speaking like a dragon which was sent away into the wilderness-dry-arid-desert places with all the sins upon his head when you first entered into the Yeshua faith and met the Master and High Priest of our faith. And according to the doctrine of the Master that old man unclean spirit of the world goes and gets seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and then returns, seeking to regain entry into his "former house" which is YOU.

Original Strong's Ref. #5810
Romanized `azaz
Pronounced aw-zaz'
a primitive root; to be stout (literally or figuratively):
KJV--harden, impudent, prevail, strengthen (self), be strong.

Original Strong's Ref. #5794
Romanized `az
Pronounced az
from HSN5810; strong, vehement, harsh:
KJV--fierce, + greedy, mighty, power, roughly, strong.

Original Strong's Ref. #5795
Romanized `ez
Pronounced aze
from HSN5810; a she-goat (as strong), but masculine in plural (which also is used ellipt. for goat's hair):
KJV--(she) goat, kid.

Original Strong's Ref. #5799
Romanized `aza'zel
Pronounced az-aw-zale'
from HSN5795 and HSN0235; goat of departure; the scapegoat:
KJV--scapegoat.

Original Strong's Ref. #235
Romanized 'azal
Pronounced aw-zal'
a primitive root; to go away, hence, to disappear:
KJV--fail, gad about, go to and fro [but in Eze.27v19 the word is rendered by many "from Uzal," by others "yarn"], be gone (spent).

So whether one wants to call them demons, devils, doctrines, or devils with their doctrines; it matters not so much, depending on the maturity of the disciple. In the beginning one should take these things and fully believe them as a child because this is exactly what we find in the opening of the ministry of Yeshua in the Gospel accounts; the casting out of demons, devils, (which clearly have their doctrines) and the healing of the blind, lame, sick, and leprous, (which also pertains to the devils and their doctrines). It is imperative that we first become like children so as to realize how the Father views our old man sin nature, (as devilish) so that we might understand the gravity of allowing him back into the house with all his wicked friends while the house Master is away in a far journey. For the same reason we are commanded to WATCH! The old man `Aza'zel is surely going to return, and there is another fiery latter days atonement made with him, but keep the patient endurance and faithfulness of the saints and you shall not be hurt of the second death.
:)
 

Purity

New Member
May 20, 2013
1,064
15
0
Melbourne
daq said:

Meat on the bones eh? ^_^

Daniel 8:5 KJV
5. And as I was considering, behold, an he goat [HSN#6842 tsaphiyr HSN#5795 `ez-`iziym] came from the west on the face of the whole earth,
and touched not the ground: and the goat [HSN#6842 tsaphiyr] had a notable horn between his eyes.

Original Strong's Ref. #6842
Romanized tsaphiyr
Pronounced tsaw-feer'
from HSN6852; a male goat (as prancing):
KJV--(he) goat.

Original Strong's Ref. #5795
Romanized `ez
Pronounced aze
from HSN5810; a she-goat (as strong), but masculine in plural (which also is used ellipt. for goat's hair):
KJV--(she) goat, kid.

This goat comes from the shadows of the West, (Yavan) over the pney-countenance-face of all the earth, (man) and touches not the ground. He is the prince of the power of the air because he touches not the ground. The notable horn between his eyes is himself, his false word, and his god. Thus he has made the frontlets between his eyes himself in opposition to Torat Elohim:


Greetings Daq,

Are you making a connection between Alexander the Great and the Prince of the Power of the Air?

"An he-goat came from the west"

Its an interesting Symbol God chose to describe Alexander. A legend states that Caremus. their first king, when seeking new habitations in Macedonia, was commanded by the oracle to some goats for his guides. Accordingly, when he saw a flock of goats fleeing from a violent storm, he followed them to Edessa, and there established the seat of his power. The city was called Aegeoe,i.e. Goats' Town; the people were named Aegeadoe, or Goats' People and the same name was given to the ocean itself; Aegean Sea, derived from the root. Aigeos, i.e. Alexander's son was named Alexander Aegus - or Son of the Goat! As Macedonia and Greece are west of Persia, and of Susa. the vision properly represented the goat as moving east from that direction.

"On the face of the whole earth"

Alexander the Great who established the Grecian or Macedonian Empire set his sights on world domination: he was an extremely ambitious man, and highly skilful in the art and discipline of war. He evolved a new form of warfare and strategy with overwhelming success.

One must ask in what manner are you likening Alexander the Great to the symbolic force Paul is describing in Eph 2:2?

Not to say there isn't one :)

daq said:

Daniel 8:22-23 KJV
22. Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce [HSN#5794 `Az] countenance, [HSN#6440 paniym] and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.


This word `Az, (or `Oz) may be taken as a proper name or as simply a description of fierceness, vehement, harsh, or powerful. It really does not matter as far as what is being presented here because the name `Aza'zel is likewise controversial but nevertheless it is what is written in Leviticus 16. This fierce paniym-anthropon-countenance of `Az is the same phrase employed by Moses in the following passage which was also referenced in my previous reply above:
This section of Scripture describes the warlike aspect of Rome, and the ruthlessness of the Legions that extended its power. It is a title that Moses used to describe the nation that would scatter Jewry, so that Daniel would have been familiar with it. Moses prophetically declared: "Yahweh shall bring a nation against thee from afar (Rome was at the western extremity of the then known world as far as Jewry was concerned) as swift as the eagle flieth (the flying eagle was a symbol of Rome); a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand (in structure and idiom Latin is completely foreign to Hebrew), a nation of fierce (warlike) countenance... and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates" etc. (Deut 28:49-52).

Clearly these prophecies speak to the development of the Kingdom(s) of men and as Paul defines that which we are taken from as "walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air"

Course of the this world = Prince of the power of the air.

In other words the political, ecclesiastical powers upon which the majority of people of the ages have walked. Notice how Paul speaks of this movement as a "spirit" or "mind and thinking" "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

The list of attributes are given for us:

- You walked (as Gentiles)according to the course of this world
- According to the prince of the power of the air
- The spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience
- Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh
- Fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Daq, there are no evil spirits here or demons and devils or the notions Christians like to attach to such words.

Everything in Eph 2:2,3 can be summed up with 1 John 2:16 manifested through every kingdom dominated by man those prophesied and those not. Every false political and religious system designed to elevate mankind above the things of Yahweh. For Paul it was Judaism; for you and I it is the fragments of a once powerful Roman empire which is trying to be strong though weakness persists. Its a Harlot Church with her many daughters.

You get the picture.

Purity