Who created evil and death?

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Sargento

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Again, you do not have to listen to me... but if you reply, I'll reply back as long as I think it's worth... ignore me and I'll ignore you.

I'm not accusation you of anything, I asked you questions.
I'm not ignoring anything, you are.

I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else, {there is} no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that {there is} none beside me. I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {things}.
Isaiah 45:5-7

It could not be any more explicit than this... yet you claim that I'm the one twisting scriptures.
 

veteran

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Sargento said:
Sure...


Thou {art} the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee {so}: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou {wast} perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never {shalt} thou {be} any more. {a terror: Heb. terrors}

Ezequiel 28:14-19


But after having much merchandise and traffick in heaven and after being devoured from inside out to never exist again he showed up again in Eden???

Hard to kill this snake, isn't it??
The Ezekiel 28:18 verse about his destruction hasn't happened yet today. That destruction was also taught by Christ in His Book of Revelation, as it's for after... Christ's still future thousand years reign. You, like many others here, fail to 'rightly divide' the Scripture according to its timelines.
Sargento said:
Again, you do not have to listen to me... but if you reply, I'll reply back as long as I think it's worth... ignore me and I'll ignore you.

I'm not accusation you of anything, I asked you questions.
I'm not ignoring anything, you are.

I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else, {there is} no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that {there is} none beside me. I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {things}.
Isaiah 45:5-7

It could not be any more explicit than this... yet you claim that I'm the one twisting scriptures.
The reason you interpretation of that Scripture is wrong is because you've failed to rightly divide God's Word according to its timelines, like I said before.

I already covered the matter of Isaiah 10 where God uses "the Assyrian" as a symbolic title for Satan himself, and how He USES... Satan as a punishing rod upon the wicked. God even expressed the idea that how can a rod which is nothing more than a piece of wood direct that punishment.

That Scripture example is very important, because God shows us that for this present world He uses 'evil' against those who do evil. It does not suggest that God created Satan to do evil at all, since God is Just in using him to combat evil since he was the one who caused the first sin against Him in the world of old.

As far as the idea of riches and trafficking per Ezek.28, you apparently haven't realized the timeline of the Rev.12:3-4 verses yet, which is about the time of Satan's original rebellion against God PRIOR to Adam and Eve. In that time of old Satan had a beast kingdom like the one in Rev.13:1, the main difference was that old one had only "seven crowns" instead of ten like the one in Rev.13:1.
 

Sargento

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VETERAN...

His destruction does not happens only on verse 18, it happens on the 16 after he sinned.

Thou {art} the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee {so}: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Thou {wast} perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never {shalt} thou {be} any more. {a terror: Heb. terrors}
Ezequiel 28:14-19


Anyway, the division you claim exists only in your mind... of course you have to create them so you can keep the tradition... so you create timelines and your own rules to divide scripture and change it's meaning...

But here it doesn't show the Devil was ever good, and Christ it was always bad... so you have NOTHING to support this theory besides your own deduction AGAINST the word of Christ.

That Scripture example is very important, because God shows us that for this present world He uses 'evil' against those who do evil.
Reward... it always comes down to this... works and rewards.
Veteran, what evil have babies done in the time of Saul or Moses done? Why did GOD killed them?


About Rev, well go there... for now what you're doing is refute the direct words of Christ and John by PARABLES you do not understand... you should understand the parables by what is clear, not the other way around.
 

veteran

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You're still... not able to rightly divide the Scripture with the simplicity that is in Christ Jesus.

Ezek 28:16-19
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
(KJV)


That is a FUTURE description of Satan's destruction in the "lake of fire". It's easy... to know it's about Satan, because Alexander the Great when God gave him to conquer Tyre he pardoned the king of Tyre. And anyone with any common sense well knows the flesh king of Tyre (Tyrus) NEVER... was in God's Garden of Eden.

Furthermore, NO flesh man has been judged to perish in the lake of fire yet. ONLY Satan and his angels have.


And YES... God DID SAY He originally created that "anointed cherub" perfect in his ways...

Ezek 28:13-15
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)


So all YOU are doing so far is telling LIES.
 

Sargento

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Simplicity of breaking verses in half? Sure, that's why today between the verse 1 and 2 of Genesis some manage to put another creation.



Prophecys are for the future...
Amazingly, your KJV puts part of this verses to the future ... most of the other do not like the American Standard Version or even my Portuguese ones... strange...


By the abundance of thy traffic they filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore have I cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God; and I have destroyed thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I have cast thee to the ground; I have laid thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
By the multitude of thine iniquities, in the unrighteousness of thy traffic, thou hast profaned thy sanctuaries; therefore have I brought forth a fire from the midst of thee; it hath devoured thee, and I have turned thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the peoples shall be astonished at thee: thou art become a terror, and thou shalt nevermore have any being.
Ezequiel 28:16-19


But I'm not gonna use this as an argument because all bible have errors... in this case it's the KJV, which is not really wrong either but makes space for your arguments of dividing the verses and apply one part in the past and another in the future so you can can deduce that it COULD mean that the devil was once good which ignores Jesus's words.
It's a house build on deception, one carefully on the top of another in which none supports it self.

It is easily understandable for who reads it that this is the Antichrist by reading the whole chapter what is it talking about ... which is where it starts talking about him with that same characteristics that Peter and Paul and Jesus told us about.


The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart {is} lifted up, and thou hast said, I {am} a God, I sit {in} the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou {art} a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: {midst: Heb. heart}
Behold, thou {art} wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
By thy great wisdom {and} by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: {thy great...: Heb. the greatness of thy wisdom}
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of {them that are} slain in the midst of the seas.
Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I {am} God? but thou {shalt be} a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. {of him that slayeth: or, of him that woundeth}
Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken {it}, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezequiel 28:1-10


Its amazing to me how you deny this for a tradition and a deduction AGAINST CHRIST WORDS.


Of course it is to the future... but if this is the Devil and all of this curses are for the future what did GOD do with Devil after he sinned?
 

aspen

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Sargento said:
Again, you do not have to listen to me... but if you reply, I'll reply back as long as I think it's worth... ignore me and I'll ignore you.

I'm not accusation you of anything, I asked you questions.
I'm not ignoring anything, you are.




I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else, {there is} no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that {there is} none beside me. I {am} the LORD, and {there is} none else.
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {things}.
Isaiah 45:5-7
It could not be any more explicit than this... yet you claim that I'm the one twisting scriptures.
Yet, how can you trust this statement?

If God is above His own law, He could change His mind second by second......the Bible becomes completely arbitrary.

BTW have you agreed with any Christian on this board? It seems like your understanding of theology and doctrine is quite different from everyone on the board? Does this worry you or do you believe you have a special revelation?
 

veteran

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Sargento said:
Simplicity of breaking verses in half? Sure, that's why today between the verse 1 and 2 of Genesis some manage to put another creation.



Prophecys are for the future...
Amazingly, your KJV puts part of this verses to the future ... most of the other do not like the American Standard Version or even my Portuguese ones... strange...


By the abundance of thy traffic they filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore have I cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God; and I have destroyed thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Thy heart was lifted up because of thy beauty; thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I have cast thee to the ground; I have laid thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
By the multitude of thine iniquities, in the unrighteousness of thy traffic, thou hast profaned thy sanctuaries; therefore have I brought forth a fire from the midst of thee; it hath devoured thee, and I have turned thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the peoples shall be astonished at thee: thou art become a terror, and thou shalt nevermore have any being.
Ezequiel 28:16-19


But I'm not gonna use this as an argument because all bible have errors... in this case it's the KJV, which is not really wrong either but makes space for your arguments of dividing the verses and apply one part in the past and another in the future so you can can deduce that it COULD mean that the devil was once good which ignores Jesus's words.
It's a house build on deception, one carefully on the top of another in which none supports it self.

It is easily understandable for who reads it that this is the Antichrist by reading the whole chapter what is it talking about ... which is where it starts talking about him with that same characteristics that Peter and Paul and Jesus told us about.


The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart {is} lifted up, and thou hast said, I {am} a God, I sit {in} the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou {art} a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God: {midst: Heb. heart}
Behold, thou {art} wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
By thy great wisdom {and} by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches: {thy great...: Heb. the greatness of thy wisdom}
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of {them that are} slain in the midst of the seas.
Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I {am} God? but thou {shalt be} a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee. {of him that slayeth: or, of him that woundeth}
Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken {it}, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezequiel 28:1-10


Its amazing to me how you deny this for a tradition and a deduction AGAINST CHRIST WORDS.


Of course it is to the future... but if this is the Devil and all of this curses are for the future what did GOD do with Devil after he sinned?
Your argument has already fallen to the wayside like dung on a cow path. All you're left with now are LIES, and you are not to be trusted.
Blue Lanai said:
@CarlosB:

I believe God created death and humans created evil.
Study your Bible more and you'll eventually find out how that is not so.

Understanding about Satan's original rebelliion per God's Word is very important, mainly because God is going to allow Satan to try and set himself up as God once again, for the last days. Many ole dead branches on God's tree are going to be pruned by that, which is why God is going to allow it again before He ends Satan's existence forever.
 

Sargento

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ASPEN...
aspen2 said:
Yet, how can you trust this statement?

If God is above His own law, He could change His mind second by second......the Bible becomes completely arbitrary.

BTW have you agreed with any Christian on this board? It seems like your understanding of theology and doctrine is quite different from everyone on the board? Does this worry you or do you believe you have a special revelation?
Why? Why can't you allow a living GOD? Why does HE have to be constrained to your knowledge of right or wrong?

This is your picture:


I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these {things}.
Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! {Let} the potsherd {strive} with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Woe unto him that saith unto {his} father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, {even} my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Isaías 45:7-12

If HE says "I created evil" has a believer you should believe... not question your creator's creations.

So far I can't agree with anyone, except for Carlos who started this topics... we have the same faith.
He just doesn't talk much here because his English is much worse than mine and he has to fully rely in translators.

But I'm not here to promote myself or any other man.... only the truth.
Who knows the truth knows us.

Blue Lanai...
I believe God created death and humans created evil.
Hi Blue...
GOD says that HIMSELF created evil... why is that wrong? Isn't HE the only creator or are we creators too now?


Veteran...


Your argument has already fallen to the wayside like dung on a cow path. All you're left with now are LIES, and you are not to be trusted.

My argumentS are standing... you just refuse to see it when when you got stuck you divided the prophecy in two parts but still ignoring my arguments... because what you do is to pick ONE of my arguments and fight it with arguments that my other arguments show to be fake in your theory... you're moving in a town in filled with dead ends, and each time you get to the end of one you change your attention to another one.... when they're over you star over... so you never have to admit your mistake.
We have an expression for that in my country, you're "filling sausages".

In all of this, what most amazes me is that you deny Christ's words for a self interpretation because LITERALLY (my first argument which you tried to refute by changing it's purpose) that in not written anywhere.

I'm not wasting more time with you until you take ALL my arguments into account and make your theory stand still.
 

veteran

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Sargento said:
Veteran...




My argumentS are standing... you just refuse to see it when when you got stuck you divided the prophecy in two parts but still ignoring my arguments... because what you do is to pick ONE of my arguments and fight it with arguments that my other arguments show to be fake in your theory... you're moving in a town in filled with dead ends, and each time you get to the end of one you change your attention to another one.... when they're over you star over... so you never have to admit your mistake.
We have an expression for that in my country, you're "filling sausages".

In all of this, what most amazes me is that you deny Christ's words for a self interpretation because LITERALLY (my first argument which you tried to refute by changing it's purpose) that in not written anywhere.

I'm not wasting more time with you until you take ALL my arguments into account and make your theory stand still.
Your mouth is starting to get you in trouble. Best be silent while you're ahead. You cannot deman that I heed your fallen arguments when you fail to even address the Ezekiel 28 Scripture as written.
Blue Lanai said:
@CarlosB:

I believe God created death and humans created evil.
At least that's better than blaming the creation of evil on God like others have done here.
 

aspen

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Well S, it sounds to me like we have reached a roadblock. I also think that most of your other conversations are in the same condition. I have explained my position on God's nature, which is in line with modern theologians and the early church; your exasperation and rejection of these ideas tells me that you might need to educate yourself a bit more. Augustine is a good place to start.
 

veteran

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Once again, I cannot stress enough, that understanding WHY God setup this present world for His Son to be born of woman to die on the cross for the remission of sins for those who 'believe' IS... directly connected to what Satan did at his original rebellion against God.

Evil would not be assigned to ALL men born in the flesh if Satan had not rebelled against God to begin the concept of evil.

Evil in this context regarding what Satan did in the beginning, with having sinned from the beginning like Apostle John said in 1 John 3:8, has a direct association with God's Law. This is why John mentioned in that same chapter from the start by declaring sin as the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). That means, evil... is equated with sin, and the devil was the first to sin against God's Law.

Now if some have a hard time figuring that out, since sin is against God's Law, it also means 'evil' is against God's Law, which is more solid Biblical proof that evil did NOT... originate from our Heavenly Father. "Yeah, but didn't God create everything," some will say? Yes, He did, but He did not create the angels like robots, otherwise the 1/3 of the angels of Rev.12:3-4 would not have also fallen into rebellion along with Satan in the time of old (see book of Enoch for more about that subject, the Ethiopic version).

For this present world, the devil and his servants here on earth want to HIDE... all that from God's people. It's because knowing about it seals up a lot of true understanding within God's Word about this earth's history, why we are here, and why our Heavenly Father sent His Son to die on the cross for those who would believe on Him.

Furthermore, since the concept of 'death' is also mentioned in this thread topic title as being from God, you folks might want to read and understand the following Scripture also...

Heb 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(KJV)



Our Lord Jesus came to die on the cross not just to defeat the devil only, but to defeat death itself which power was assigned to the devil. Thus I have to remind folks of these Scriptures also about that...

1 Cor 15:54-57
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, Which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)


If sin equals the "sting of death" like Apostle Paul said there, then how could the concept of 'death' originate from God?

In the purest sense, anything... that is against God's Law He established in the beginning (not just from the days of Moses), is equal to sin and death, the opposite condition of God's Own Nature. So in the strongest technical sense one can still only attribute the concept of the creation of sin and death having been started as a result of what Satan did against Him in the world of old like the Ezekiel 28 Scripture is pointing us to.

2 Tim 1:10
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
(KJV)


Sin and death originated by Satan's acts against God in the previous world, and its operation was setup as part of this present world. But in the world to come, both sin and death... will be abolished...

Rev 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(KJV)
 

logabe

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veteran said:
Once again, I cannot stress enough, that understanding WHY God setup this present world for His Son to be born of woman to die on the cross for the remission of sins for those who 'believe' IS... directly connected to what Satan did at his original rebellion against God.

Evil would not be assigned to ALL men born in the flesh if Satan had not rebelled against God to begin the concept of evil.

Evil in this context regarding what Satan did in the beginning, with having sinned from the beginning like Apostle John said in 1 John 3:8, has a direct association with God's Law. This is why John mentioned in that same chapter from the start by declaring sin as the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). That means, evil... is equated with sin, and the devil was the first to sin against God's Law.

Now if some have a hard time figuring that out, since sin is against God's Law, it also means 'evil' is against God's Law, which is more solid Biblical proof that evil did NOT... originate from our Heavenly Father. "Yeah, but didn't God create everything," some will say? Yes, He did, but He did not create the angels like robots, otherwise the 1/3 of the angels of Rev.12:3-4 would not have also fallen into rebellion along with Satan in the time of old (see book of Enoch for more about that subject, the Ethiopic version).

For this present world, the devil and his servants here on earth want to HIDE... all that from God's people. It's because knowing about it seals up a lot of true understanding within God's Word about this earth's history, why we are here, and why our Heavenly Father sent His Son to die on the cross for those who would believe on Him.

Furthermore, since the concept of 'death' is also mentioned in this thread topic title as being from God, you folks might want to read and understand the following Scripture also...

Heb 2:14-15
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
(KJV)



Our Lord Jesus came to die on the cross not just to defeat the devil only, but to defeat death itself which power was assigned to the devil. Thus I have to remind folks of these Scriptures also about that...

1 Cor 15:54-57
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, Which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)


If sin equals the "sting of death" like Apostle Paul said there, then how could the concept of 'death' originate from God?

In the purest sense, anything... that is against God's Law He established in the beginning (not just from the days of Moses), is equal to sin and death, the opposite condition of God's Own Nature. So in the strongest technical sense one can still only attribute the concept of the creation of sin and death having been started as a result of what Satan did against Him in the world of old like the Ezekiel 28 Scripture is pointing us to.
2 Tim 1:10
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
(KJV)


Sin and death originated by Satan's acts against God in the previous world, and its operation was setup as part of this present world. But in the world to come, both sin and death... will be abolished...

Rev 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(KJV)
The question is... how could an all powerful, all knowing, and all wise God create a being that
He knew was going to rebel against Him? Does that make God any less responsible for creating
Him? Surely God knew @ some point the Serpent was going to break His Law.

If God created a good being and didn't know he was going to rebel against him, then we have
a big problem. If the Devil can rebel against God without God knowing it, what will keep him from
doing it again. We have to be missing something. Amos 3:6 says,

6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be
afraid ? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not
done it?

There are millions of Christians that don't believe that God created all things including evil. They
would rather believe that the Devil was made good by God, but he made himself evil and wrecked
the plan of God to where it is almost impossible to save anyone. They say, 95% of the God's human
race has no hope and the other 5% believes the Devil will probably get about half of them.

Come on... quit listening to fables, vain imaginations, and carnal reasoning, God has complete control
over everything you can imagine. God uses the Devil as a tool and that my friend is the reason He
made him evil in the beginning. Let me explain... John 9:2-3 says,

2 And His disciples asked Him, " Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his
parents, that he would be born blind ?"
3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his
parents ; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in
him.

Did you see that, everything that God does, He does for a purpose. He blinded this man (used evil) to
display the works of God in him. So that's just an inkling of the purpose of God creating evil. Let's
become mature when it comes to the sovereignty of God, and not allow the carnal mind to keep us in
childish theology. It's very simple... God created evil for a PURPOSE!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

Sargento

New Member
Jul 14, 2013
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Veteran...
veteran said:
Your mouth is starting to get you in trouble. Best be silent while you're ahead. You cannot deman that I heed your fallen arguments when you fail to even address the Ezekiel 28 Scripture as written.


At least that's better than blaming the creation of evil on God like others have done here.
If you want to discuss Ezekiel 28 you know what you have to do... stop pretending not to see and refute all my arguments instead of using one previously refuted argument to support another also refuted. Stop supporting theory on top of theory. Then you'll have my attention, until there you are refuted... however I can't stop you from singing "victory"...

Book of Enoch?? I thought so... had to be.



Logabe...
The question is... how could an all powerful, all knowing, and all wise God create a being that
He knew was going to rebel against Him? Does that make God any less responsible for creating
Him? Surely God knew @ some point the Serpent was going to break His Law.

If God created a good being and didn't know he was going to rebel against him, then we have
a big problem. If the Devil can rebel against God without God knowing it, what will keep him from
doing it again. We have to be missing something. Amos 3:6 says,

6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be
afraid ? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not
done it?

There are millions of Christians that don't believe that God created all things including evil. They
would rather believe that the Devil was made good by God, but he made himself evil and wrecked
the plan of God to where it is almost impossible to save anyone. They say, 95% of the God's human
race has no hope and the other 5% believes the Devil will probably get about half of them.

Come on... quit listening to fables, vain imaginations, and carnal reasoning, God has complete control
over everything you can imagine. God uses the Devil as a tool and that my friend is the reason He
made him evil in the beginning. Let me explain... John 9:2-3 says,

2 And His disciples asked Him, " Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his
parents, that he would be born blind ?"
3 Jesus answered, "It was neither that this man sinned, nor his
parents ; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed in
him.

Did you see that, everything that God does, He does for a purpose. He blinded this man (used evil) to
display the works of God in him. So that's just an inkling of the purpose of God creating evil. Let's
become mature when it comes to the sovereignty of God, and not allow the carnal mind to keep us in
childish theology. It's very simple... God created evil for a PURPOSE!

What a God! What a Plan!
Well said... nothing to add...
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
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0
Southeast USA
logabe said:
The question is... how could an all powerful, all knowing, and all wise God create a being that
He knew was going to rebel against Him? Does that make God any less responsible for creating
Him? Surely God knew @ some point the Serpent was going to break His Law.
So does that mean you're beginning to understand how evil and sin is against God's very Own Nature, and that it's impossible to have originated with Him? I'll assume you've grasped that point.

So now we've reached the topic of how could God think to create a being that could have the option to rebel against Him?

Why did God create us? For His pleasure, as per Rev.4:11, i.e., to love Him. We could never do that unless He also created the concept of free will. A robot that goes around saying, "I love ya, I love ya" is not the kind of pleasure from a child of His that says it and really means it and really shows it from their heart and mind. I can't think of the word, but it's about a type of independence of emotion that His creatures must have for their show of love to have real meaning.

The Ezek.28 Scripture reveals that God originally created Satan perfect in his ways, that he originally served God even at His Throne, since that's what the idea there of an "anointed cherub that covereth" means (Ezek.28:14). Then Satan rebelled by coveting God's Throne and wanting to be The GOD, but why? because God created him to rebel? NO, because God already revealed there in Ezek.28 that He created Satan a good cherub, and not with the intent that he rebel.

If Satan had not rebelled against God in the beginning, but had continued to serve Him as the "anointed cherub that covereth", then this present world and Christ being sent to die on the cross would not had been necessary. The reason why we are here today, and why this present world is like it is, is because Satan did rebel against Him, and drew others with him into rebellion. If that had not happened, then God's Eternity would have continued... as it was. This present world is only a short pause in God's Eternal clock.

Can we really try to assign 'responsibility' to God, by saying He knew Satan would rebel against Him when He created him originally a good cherub? Is that what our Heavenly Father showed us here?...


Ezek 28:15
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)



Can we really draw that kind of picture about our Heavenly Father, that He was merely waiting for the moment when Satan would rebel against Him? Isn't that kind of idea assigning what Satan did to our Heavenly Father Himself, making God responsible?

Are you sure... you want to assign what the devil did to God Himself being responsible for it?
 

logabe

Active Member
Aug 28, 2008
880
47
28
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veteran said:
So does that mean you're beginning to understand how evil and sin is against God's very Own Nature, and that it's impossible to have originated with Him? I'll assume you've grasped that point.

So now we've reached the topic of how could God think to create a being that could have the option to rebel against Him?

Why did God create us? For His pleasure, as per Rev.4:11, i.e., to love Him. We could never do that unless He also created the concept of free will. A robot that goes around saying, "I love ya, I love ya" is not the kind of pleasure from a child of His that says it and really means it and really shows it from their heart and mind. I can't think of the word, but it's about a type of independence of emotion that His creatures must have for their show of love to have real meaning.

The Ezek.28 Scripture reveals that God originally created Satan perfect in his ways, that he originally served God even at His Throne, since that's what the idea there of an "anointed cherub that covereth" means (Ezek.28:14). Then Satan rebelled by coveting God's Throne and wanting to be The GOD, but why? because God created him to rebel? NO, because God already revealed there in Ezek.28 that He created Satan a good cherub, and not with the intent that he rebel.

If Satan had not rebelled against God in the beginning, but had continued to serve Him as the "anointed cherub that covereth", then this present world and Christ being sent to die on the cross would not had been necessary. The reason why we are here today, and why this present world is like it is, is because Satan did rebel against Him, and drew others with him into rebellion. If that had not happened, then God's Eternity would have continued... as it was. This present world is only a short pause in God's Eternal clock.

Can we really try to assign 'responsibility' to God, by saying He knew Satan would rebel against Him when He created him originally a good cherub? Is that what our Heavenly Father showed us here?...

Ezek 28:15
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)



Can we really draw that kind of picture about our Heavenly Father, that He was merely waiting for the moment when Satan would rebel against Him? Isn't that kind of idea assigning what Satan did to our Heavenly Father Himself, making God responsible?

Are you sure... you want to assign what the devil did to God Himself being responsible for it?
Let me attempt to draw a picture of what the scriptures say about this Serpent. Let's
use Gen. 3:1 and get a closer look @ what God is telling us.

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field
which the LORD God had made .

There's two things we need to see in this verse. (1) Man says the Serpent was made a
perfect anointed cherub, but God says he made him from the beginning a subtle beast
nature. (2) Man says "the Serpent" was perfect and then He made himself a bad angel,
but God says He made him that way from the beginning.

As I said before, everything God does is for a "PURPOSE". He created the Devil as an
instrument in His Hand Isa. 54:16.

16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals
in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his
work; and I have created the waster to destroy .

There it is... the PURPOSE we have been looking for. God uses Satan as an instrument to
allow the fiery trials to correct us. In man's view it is evil when God uses the Devil as a
SMITH to blow the coals "heat up the fire" in our life to make us a better person. Some of
you may say, give me some scripture for that, 1st Peter 3:12 says,

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial
which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened
unto you:

Yes... God uses Satan to come in and wreak havoc in our lives, so He can grow our faith.
Mathew 4:1 says,

1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to
be tempted of the devil.

Are you getting the picture... God created the Devil, that old Serpent, and gave him a job
to do. He wasn't no perfect angel, God said, he was an instrument in His Hand to tempt
not only Jesus, but also the rest of the brethren. Luke 22:31-32 says,

31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath
desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and
when thou art converted , strengthen thy brethren.

There it is again, "the Purpose" to strengthen and build your faith so you can help your
brethren. 1st Peter 5:8-9 says,

8 Be sober , be vigilant ; because your adversary the devil,
as a roaring lion, walketh about , seeking whom he may
devour :
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same
afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the
world.

Are we getting the picture now? God uses "the Smith" on all the brethren that come into
the Kingdom of God. That's why He created him the most subtil beast of the field. The
beast nature is what we deal with daily.

Okay, that's enough of that... 2 more scriptures, Heb. 5:8 and Heb. 2:10 says,

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the
things which he suffered ;
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom
are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the
captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The Devil want's to make you miserable, because God created him to be the best that he
could be. When he does his job "his purpose", the result is, we become Overcomers. If we
suffer with Jesus, we will also be glorified with Him. Romans 8:17-18 says,

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God , and joint-heirs
with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may
be also glorified together .
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are
not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be
revealed in us.

The point is, that's how God turns evil into good. The Devil can't stop making you suffer,
because he loves when you fall. At the same time, you are benefitting from his evil ways.
Wow... that blows me away... God truly knows what He is doing.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
logabe said:
Let me attempt to draw a picture of what the scriptures say about this Serpent. Let's
use Gen. 3:1 and get a closer look @ what God is telling us.

1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field
which the LORD God had made .

There's two things we need to see in this verse. (1) Man says the Serpent was made a
perfect anointed cherub, but God says he made him from the beginning a subtle beast
nature. (2) Man says "the Serpent" was perfect and then He made himself a bad angel,
but God says He made him that way from the beginning.
The reason why your premise there won't work is because Satan as "that old serpent" had ALREADY... rebelled against God by the time of Adam and Eve, and God had already judged and sentenced him to perish in the future lake of fire. That's why Satan was there tempting Adam and Eve by that time of Gen.3. It is NOT when God first created Satan as the anointed cherub that covereth per Ezek.28.

Another reason is that God is only using the idea of a serpent or snake as a spiritual metaphor there. Satan himself is not a real 'serpent' or snake, but a heavenly cherub. God only compares Satan's nature at this point in time like a snake's subtle beast nature. This is also why we're given the "brute beast" metaphor later in the New Testament to represent Satan and his servants here on earth (Jude 1:10; 2 Pet.2:12). It is even why God caused Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, to live wild as a beast as a punishment in order to convert him (Dan.4, which Nebuchadnezzer himself wrote).

logabe said:
As I said before, everything God does is for a "PURPOSE". He created the Devil as an
instrument in His Hand Isa. 54:16.

16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals
in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his
work; and I have created the waster to destroy .

There it is... the PURPOSE we have been looking for. God uses Satan as an instrument to
allow the fiery trials to correct us. In man's view it is evil when God uses the Devil as a
SMITH to blow the coals "heat up the fire" in our life to make us a better person. Some of
you may say, give me some scripture for that, 1st Peter 3:12 says,

12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial
which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened
unto you:

Yes... God uses Satan to come in and wreak havoc in our lives, so He can grow our faith.
Mathew 4:1 says,

1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to
be tempted of the devil.

Are you getting the picture... God created the Devil, that old Serpent, and gave him a job
to do. He wasn't no perfect angel, God said, he was an instrument in His Hand to tempt
not only Jesus, but also the rest of the brethren. Luke 22:31-32 says,

31 And the Lord said , Simon, Simon, behold , Satan hath
desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and
when thou art converted , strengthen thy brethren.

There it is again, "the Purpose" to strengthen and build your faith so you can help your
brethren. 1st Peter 5:8-9 says,

8 Be sober , be vigilant ; because your adversary the devil,
as a roaring lion, walketh about , seeking whom he may
devour :
9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same
afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the
world.

Are we getting the picture now? God uses "the Smith" on all the brethren that come into
the Kingdom of God. That's why He created him the most subtil beast of the field. The
beast nature is what we deal with daily.

Okay, that's enough of that... 2 more scriptures, Heb. 5:8 and Heb. 2:10 says,

8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the
things which he suffered ;
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom
are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the
captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The Devil want's to make you miserable, because God created him to be the best that he
could be. When he does his job "his purpose", the result is, we become Overcomers. If we
suffer with Jesus, we will also be glorified with Him. Romans 8:17-18 says,

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God , and joint-heirs
with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may
be also glorified together .
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are
not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be
revealed in us.

The point is, that's how God turns evil into good. The Devil can't stop making you suffer,
because he loves when you fall. At the same time, you are benefitting from his evil ways.
Wow... that blows me away... God truly knows what He is doing.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
ALL... of those Scriptures are for the time AFTER... Satan had rebelled against God, when he sinned from the beginning like Apostle John said in 1 John 1.

That's why you will NOT discover anywhere there in the Book of Genesis just WHAT sin it was that Satan first did against God. To discover that you have to heed later Scripture like Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 and put your thinking cap on.


Here's what God showed us about Satan's sin from the beginning (prior to Adam and Eve) per Isaiah 14. You're required to actually 'think' with this and consider who He is really talking about...

Isa 14:4-17
4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, "How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
5 The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.
6 He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.
7 The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.


A "proverb" is like a parable. Shouldn't be difficult to grasp that a parable uses other things to compare with. In this case, God is comparing Satan to the king of Babylon. The "oppressor" is put for the king of Babylon, and the "golden city" is put for the city of Babylon. And God is speaking of the future at this point when He will subdue all the wicked at His second coming, and thus the "whole earth is at rest..." at this point. That 7th verse has not even happened yet today, so it should be easy just how far forward our Heavenly Father is pointing to here.

8 Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, "Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us."

God's uses trees at times to represent men, and "the cedards of Lebanon" at times to represent kings, royalty. Since this king of Babylon God speaks of is laid down (defeated), no one else has come up against these kings.

9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Later at the end of Isaiah 30:33, God used the king of Assyria as a symbolic title for Satan, the one who symbolic Tophet of old as a fire with much wood has been prepared for. That's about the future "lake of fire". Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, was the flesh king, but we know God converted Nebuchadnezzar, his even having written the 4th Chapter of the Book of Daniel, even praising God. So "Tophet of old" of Isa.30:33 we know definitely has not been prepared for ole' Neb. Who does that leave then? The devil himself.

Per Rev.16, the dragon and false prophet go to all the kings of the earth during the tribulation time to gather them to him in prep for the battle of Armageddon when Jesus will come to defeat them. Here those kings are shown in the pit of hell prepared to meet this one coming to that pit. So this has to be after... the near-future tribulation, and after Christ's second coming to defeat the wicked on earth and those kings at the battle of Armageddon.

10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, "Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?"

And here's what those kings in the pit will say to this king of Babylon when he comes there to join them in the pit of hell. "Art thou also become weak as we?", they'll say to him.


11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

That means God's enemies having been defeated on earth by that point in time. And this king of Babylon over His enemies also is defeated, the "oppressor" has ceased.

Now God is going to reveal DIRECTLY... just who He has been pointing to using that king of Babylon as a symbolic title here...


12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

No question now as to who God intends this "proverb" about. It's about Satan himself. And just what... sin against God did he do?


13 For thou hast said in thine heart, "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."


God repeats what Satan had said in relation to how he rebelled in the time of old (i.e., prior to Adam and Eve in Eden). Satan said he would ascend into heaven and exalt his own throne above the stars of God, and that he would sit upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north. Satan said he would "be like the most High".


Now let's look at the Ezekiel 28 Chapter is see if there's a comparison to this...

Ezek 28:2
2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, "Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, 'I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas'; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:"
(KJV)


And then this about the king of Tyrus...

Ezek 28:12-16
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
(KJV)



A covering cherub is NOT... ANY flesh born man, no matter how... you would like to spin it. NOR... was any flesh king ever in God's Garden of Eden. A 'cherub' per God's Word is a heavenly created being, and that is especially shown in the Book of Ezekiel, the very first chapter even with the vision Ezekiel was given to see.

What you're showing Logabe is that you have never... been shown this from God's Word. If you're just listening to preachers in the various Church denominations, that's why you've not been shown this from God's Word, for it is too controversial a topic for them to cover, they think. The seminaries teach the preachers to stay on the 'milk' of God's Word. But this is part of the "strong meat" of God's Word.
 

Sargento

New Member
Jul 14, 2013
93
0
0
Logabe, they still has this to refute...



About Ezekiel...

First of all, it's talking to the king of Tyrus not the Devil and it's for the FUTURE like any normal prophecy, not the PAST... (this is meant to show that this is a parable not literal text)

Second...
It says that he became corrupted because of the greatness of his traffick .... IN HEAVEN??

Third...
It says that God will reduce him to ashes... was the Devil reduced to ashes after his "rebellion"? Didn't he appeared many times on hearth in the Old Testament (and new) and even between the children of GOD in Job's book?


"Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
Ezekiel 28:18-19


Fourth and last...
This prophecy about the King of Tyre ends with his total annihilation... was the Devil totally annihilated after he "rebelled"?

"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never {shalt} thou {be} any more. {a terror: Heb. terrors}"
Ezekiel 28:19


Now there's the argument some might say "he was in Eden"... well, so did the Pharaoh:

"And it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third {month}, in the first {day} of the month, {that} the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness?
Behold, the Assyrian {was} a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs. {with fair branches: Heb. fair of branches}
The waters made him great, the deep set him up on high with her rivers running round about his plants, and sent out her little rivers unto all the trees of the field. {made...: or, nourished him} {set...: or, brought him up} {little rivers: or, conduits}
Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field, and his boughs were multiplied, and his branches became long because of the multitude of waters, when he shot forth. {when...: or, when it sent them forth}
All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations.
Thus was he fair in his greatness, in the length of his branches: for his root was by great waters.
The cedars in the garden of God could not hide him: the fir trees were not like his boughs, and the chesnut trees were not like his branches; nor any tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty.
I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that {were} in the garden of God, envied him.
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast lifted up thyself in height, and he hath shot up his top among the thick boughs, and his heart is lifted up in his height;"

Ez 31:1-10

The truth is, this prophecys, just like many others are for the end of times, not the beginning ... prophecys are for the future, not the past ... in these case they're talking about the Antichrist and their appearance to the world when he sits in the holy place appearing a saint and a protector angel until he be exposed and then totally annihilated by the day of the LORD.


About Isaiah...

...it talks about the day of the LORD again... and again it's the future not the past... because it says :


And it shall come to pass in the day that the LORD shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the hard bondage wherein thou wast made to serve,
That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased! {proverb: or, taunting speech} {golden...: or, exactress of gold}

Isa 14:3-4


This is what we are going to say about the Antichrist in the day that Jesus annihilates him ... when the oppressor ceases ... not what happened before... this is what well say in the day of the LORD when the Devil will be annihilated by the splendor of the appearing of our Lord.


"The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, {and} the sceptre of the rulers.
He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, {and} none hindereth. {a continual...: Heb. a stroke without removing}
The whole earth is at rest, {and} is quiet: they break forth into singing.
Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, {and} the cedars of Lebanon, {saying}, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet {thee} at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, {even} all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. {Hell: or, The grave} {chief...: Heb. leaders, or, great goats}"

Isaiah 14:5-9

Then it says the LORD broke him... That happened in his rebellion? What was he doing in the desert with Jesus then?

It also says he ruled nations... IN HEAVEN?

Then it says the the Whole Earth is at rest... the Earth became at rest after his rebellion? Or according to tradition that's when he came and perverted hearth also?
How is that expelling from Heaven on to Earth makes Earth at rest?... simple, this expel was no from heaven but from Earth to Hell.

Then we see he meets Hell... well, if after rebellion he gone to Hell what was he doing in Eden?


"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Isaiah 14:13-14

Again, if this is his expelling FROM heaven why was he craving to ASCEND to heaven? Wasn't he already there???

And just like before, at the beginning of the chapter we see that we will say this when he as ceased... and again it's about the Antichrist in the end of times, not Devil at the beginnig.




So, not Isaiah nor Ezekiel say the Devil was ever good and then rebelled ... however Jesus says he was always wicked and never good.

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do: he was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
John 8:44

And so does John...

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
1John 3:8


So, they both say the Devil was never good, and nowhere in the Bible we see the opposite .. if believe the Devil had ever been good I would be despising the word of GOD to listen to human traditions.
And many more mistakes are in this "devil's rebellion"... I'll leave here another argument.

To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with them that are slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord Jehovah.
Ezek 31:18

Amazing.... Pharaoh in Eden????
Pharaoh, the one who claimed to be GOD and enslaved God's people ...almost like a big tribulation ins't it?
 

veteran

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ALL... of the beast kings of history are direct symbolic representations of what Satan himself did when he first rebelled against God in wanting to be GOD.

Satan's servants cannot understand this metaphorical association in those Scriptures that our Heavenly Father makes. It's not given for them to understand the Mysteries of The Kingdom of God which are meant ONLY for Christ's Church.
 

Sargento

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Of course... all prophecys are for the past... this is a great revelation... the prophets were brought to us to prophesy the past!!!
I'ts amazing what you have to say to still validate this mistake.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for {that day shall not come}, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. {withholdeth: or, holdeth}
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth {will let}, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2 Tessalonicenses 2:3-8

It's not given to them?? So you now believe GOD elects people to hell?
Satan's servants CANNOT?
What happened to free will?
Anything goes right?