Adam had free will?

If you don't know which is good and which is bad how is that a free choice?

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Free will is the power to make a choice - it has nothing to do with choosing good from evil. We are still incapable of making good choices apart from God, despite the fact that A and E supposedly acquired the superpower of determining good from evil. The fact is, free will was broken after A and E misused it by eating fruit - instead of being able to choose between good things, we are now only able to choose between evil choices, apart from God. Stop holding up A and E's sin as a virtue.

It's like choosing something with our eyes closed ... and to make it worse the fruit was desirable to them.

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No. It is like we were born blind because A and E decided to forsake their sight.

It's like "you're free to choose between to things you cannot distinguish but one of them looks good"

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No. This is not the unbroken free will that A and E experienced before the Fall; it is the broken version we are experiencing today apart from Christ. A and E believed the serpent, who convinced them that they had to know evil in order to really understand good. So, instead of trusting God, that He was already providing them all the good they could ever want, they believed the serpent and decided they would get more if they could determine what was good. Unfortunately, the result was a broken free will - all we are left with is the ability to choose between evil and less evil choices apart from Christ AND we are only fooling ourselves just like A and E did if we think we can make good choices without God.

that's not FREE will, that's constrained will (desire for sin) associated with blindness (no understanding)... that's like an animal... does what it feels like which depends on the nature GOD gave him.

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We can learn a lot from animals. They are free to only choose good choices that God provides for them. A lion can choose between many different animals to feed upon, for example - all choices are good because he is acting according to his nature. They do not pervert their nature by acting outside the boundaries God provided for them. St. Francis was right to call them saints. If A and E had only acted within the boundaries of their good nature, rather than deciding to believe the serpent that they could be 'like god', we would still be able to choose between only good choices and we would still be able to act within our nature, perfectly, which is to love God and others perfectly.

They were gifted with desire for the forbidden fruit and eyes closed so they didn't understand the consequences of sin ... that's what you call FREE-will?

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Knowing the difference between good and evil is not necessary if evil is never introduced. Why would you need to learn how to identify a broken car, if broken cars were impossible?

So not only they're WILL was not free like they didn't even had the understanding to know what they were choosing so they might at least want to resist it.

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Wrong. We do not need to know evil to know good. If I had the choice between 20 cars that ran perfectly - I could only make a good choice. I would still have the power to choose. After A and E sinned, they probably believed that they understood good better because of their sin, but it was a delusion - instead of making unselfish choices, based on God's standards. All they had was the power to make choices based on there own selfish desires - resulting in only making evil choices.

They were has free not to sin has a rock not to fall... all of they're chances were blocked.

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No sure what you are trying say. One of the consequences of the Fall is a dualistic world outlook. We now see everything as black and white or right and wrong. Instead of only choosing options within our nature, which are within the context of loving outwardly, apart from God, right and wrong is 'right for us' and 'wrong for us'. We learned nothing from A and E accept delusion and distortion of reality.

I'll answer 3 posts in these one... I know some are meant for Carlos but I can't always answer, so I'll answer or him because we share the same faith.
I answered separately to each but you can all answer to all.

Hi Zebra...

What illogical hubbub is this???!!!
If Adam DID NOT have a free will, he WOULDN'T have SINNED!
Go and study some stuff which is actually going to help you and others, not foolish questions.

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Why is it that if Adam did not have free will he wouldn't have sinned?
Sin is rejecting GOD, and many have sinned by rejecting GOD because GOD caused them to...

If one person sins against another, God may mediate for the offender; but if anyone sins against the LORD, who will intercede for them?" His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death.
1 Sam2:25

What is you confusion about this Carlos said?

Clearly dying was NOT a GOOD thing. The choice is rather obvious. Don't eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and live, or eat the fruit of the tree and die.
Man had a choice to make. And he made it. If he didn't have free will, HE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD AN OPTION.

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So you think Adam wanted to die?

First thing...
CHOOSING does not mean FREE-WILL, it just means will...
...a carnivore desires meat, but is he free to desire to eat grass?? Does he have a will? No doubt... but is it free?? Absolutely not...

Second thing...
Adam didn't even knew he was naked nor did he felt shame (knew he did wrong) before eating the fruit for his eyes were closed ... but that knowledge was in the tree, that's why only after he eat from it his eyes were open and he hide from GOD... if he knew this before he would at least had the opportunity to fight temptation.


Choosing without understanding the end of each choice is as valid has choosing one of two surprise gifts... it's not really a choice because you do not even know what you're choosing.
But ONLY AFTER GOD said "they now know good and evil"... how did man choose evil if he didn't know which it was what... he just heard one telling him "do not eat" and another saying "eat" and reacted like any animal with no understanding of good and evil which he only gained AFTER eating the fruit.


Presenting an option does not mean you can choose it... the bad tree cannot deliver a good fruit... or like the example I've given above, a lion cannot choose to desire grass instead of meat, nor can a cow desire meat instead of grass even if you put those two options (meat and grass) at their reach because they do have a will but it's not free.
OPTIONS DO NOT CREATE FREE-WILL.





Pilgrimer...

It is the sovereign will of God that man choose whom he will serve.

No, Adam did not understand all the consequences of his actions, neither do we. Only God is omniscient, only God knows all the ramifications of everything we do, say, or even think. So our duty, as it was for Adam, is to trust God and obey Him, understanding that our omniscient God loves us, only wants the best for us, and He alone knows what is best.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

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Read above why choosing does not mean FREE will.




Pilgrimer, if HE wants what's best for us, and HE knows that we do not understand all the consequences of our actions why does HE let us choose (according to free-will theory)?
Is that permission (to choose evil) good or bad?

If you had a son that did not know the consequences of jumping of a 10 flour building would you let him choose to jump? Would that be love?
What would you do? Save him even against his will, or grant him free-will?

I await you answers...





Selene...

We're not the ones to determine what is good and what is bad. God already determined that eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil would be bad and bring death. The role of Adam and Eve is to trust God on what He determines to be good and bad. God gave them the free will to either place their trust on Him or not......to obey or not.

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Hi...

Also, like Pilgrimer, read above please...

Adam did not know any evil or good... he was choosing between grey and grey... there were no white and black... his eyes were shut for that kind distinction... there were no such concept for him.
There was only the first order, and than the second plus his desire to eat the fruit (which shows a will already formed).

GOD gave him a commandment, that does not mean he could keep it... where do you see that his will was free?
A will that is free is a will that has no anchor, that is not defined nor stuck in any way... but from the moment that you have a nature you're will is no longer free... and the nature of man is exposed when Eve saw the fruit and desired it...

Can you control what you desire or want or love or hate or trust? Do you own your heart?
If you do you have free will otherwise you don't.


Aspen...

aspen2 said:

Free will is the power to make a choice - it has nothing to do with choosing good from evil. We are still incapable of making good choices apart from God, despite the fact that A and E supposedly acquired the superpower of determining good from evil. The fact is, free will was broken after A and E misused it by eating fruit - instead of being about to choose between good things, we are now only able to choose between evil choices, apart from God. Stop holding up A and E's sin as a virtue.




No. It is like we were born blind because A and E decided to forsake their sight.

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A lion chooses meat (that's the ability to make a choice right?)... is that free will?

If you are defining free will as a choice between good and evil it is an oxymoron apart from God. It is impossible. Also, it is completely unnecessary if we were obedient in the first place. It is comparable to celebrating antibiotics for their ability to cure sickness, when sickness never had to be introduced in the first place.

Also, if you define free will as choosing options without an anchor, it is an oxymoron, as well. Last time I checked, human beings are not omnipotent, even if they choose to be.

Sargento said:

I'll answer 3 posts in these one... I know some are meant for Carlos but I can't always answer, so I'll answer or him because we share the same faith.
I answered separately to each but you can all answer to all.

Hi Zebra...

Why is it that if Adam did not have free will he wouldn't have sinned?
Sin is rejecting GOD, and many have sinned by rejecting GOD because GOD caused them to...

If one person sins against another, God may mediate for the offender; but if anyone sins against the LORD, who will intercede for them?" His sons, however, did not listen to their father's rebuke, for it was the LORD's will to put them to death.
1 Sam2:25

What is you confusion about this Carlos said?




So you think Adam wanted to die?

First thing...
CHOOSING does not mean FREE-WILL, it just means will...
...a carnivore desires meat, but is he free to desire to eat grass?? Does he have a will? No doubt... but is it free?? Absolutely not...

Second thing...
Adam didn't even knew he was naked nor did he felt shame (knew he did wrong) before eating the fruit for his eyes were closed ... but that knowledge was in the tree, that's why only after he eat from it his eyes were open and he hide from GOD... if he knew this before he would at least had the opportunity to fight temptation.


Choosing without understanding the end of each choice is as valid has choosing one of two surprise gifts... it's not really a choice because you do not even know what you're choosing.
But ONLY AFTER GOD said "they now know good and evil"... how did man choose evil if he didn't know which it was what... he just heard one telling him "do not eat" and another saying "eat" and reacted like any animal with no understanding of good and evil which he only gained AFTER eating the fruit.


Presenting an option does not mean you can choose it... the bad tree cannot deliver a good fruit... or like the example I've given above, a lion cannot choose to desire grass instead of meat, nor can a cow desire meat instead of grass even if you put those two options (meat and grass) at their reach because they do have a will but it's not free.
OPTIONS DO NOT CREATE FREE-WILL.

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Yawn. You show extremely poor study of the Scripture and illogical thinking.

Lions are not humans. I'm not disputing that animals don't have free will. They aren't going to live forever either. (illogical thinking)

The sons of Eli had ALREADY made their choice when they abused the rights given them by God. Instead of serving him, they defied him blatantly. By the time Eli addressed the issues, it was too late - God's judgement was going to fall regardless. (and here is your extremely poor study of Scripture)
Also,, about the 'surprise gifts', they weren't surprise. Adam knew that something bad would happen if he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because he had disobeyed God. Once again, illogical thinking on your half.

Sargento said:

Pilgrimer...

Read above why choosing does not mean FREE will.

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But I don't agree that free choice is the same thing as informed choice.

Sargento said:

Pilgrimer, if HE wants what's best for us, and HE knows that we do not understand all the consequences of our actions why does HE let us choose (according to free-will theory)?
Is that permission (to choose evil) good or bad?

If you had a son that did not know the consequences of jumping of a 10 flour building would you let him choose to jump? Would that be love?
What would you do? Save him even against his will, or grant him free-will?

I await you answers...

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Are these things really such puzzles for you? If I had a son who did not know the consequences of jumping off a 10-floor building then I would have two options:

First, and my choice, would be to inform him what the consequences would be of jumping off a 10-floor building ... that he would die.

Second choice would be to tie him up and lock him in a closet for the rest of his life.


In Christ,
Pilgrimer

ASPEN...

aspen2 said:

If you are defining free will as a choice between good and evil it is an oxymoron apart from God. It is impossible. Also, it is completely unnecessary if we were obedient in the first place. It is comparable to celebrating antibiotics for their ability to cure sickness, when sickness never had to be introduced in the first place.

Also, if you define free will as choosing options without an anchor, it is an oxymoron, as well. Last time I checked, human beings are not omnipotent, even if they choose to be.

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That's why your will is NOT FREE... it's constrained to something... and if it's constrained to a nature IT IT NOT FREE.


ZEBRA...

Yawn. You show extremely poor study of the Scripture and illogical thinking.

Lions are not humans. I'm not disputing that animals don't have free will. They aren't going to live forever either. (illogical thinking)

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Animals are a perfect example... humans like animals obey they nature.

Is it possible for the skin of the Ethiopian to be changed, or the markings on the leopard? Then it might be possible for you to do good, who have been trained to do evil.
Jr13:23

The only difference between humans and animals is the knowledge of good and evil which makes humans have the illusion of free will and of owning them selves ... nothing else.
Humans have the same free will has any animal...

The sons of Eli had ALREADY made their choice when they abused the rights given them by God. Instead of serving him, they defied him blatantly. By the time Eli addressed the issues, it was too late - God's judgement was going to fall regardless. (and here is your extremely poor study of Scripture)

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Did they sinned or not by not listening to Eli?

Also,, about the 'surprise gifts', they weren't surprise. Adam knew that something bad would happen if he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because he had disobeyed God. Once again, illogical thinking on your half.

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How could they know that something BAD would happen if they did not have the knowledge of what is good and what is bad? Zebra, they do not understand good or bad, that concept did not exist in them...
And I'm illogical???

PILGRIMER...

But I don't agree that free choice is the same thing as informed choice.

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I didn't talked about "informed choice"... I talked about free will.

You did not answer this:
"Pilgrimer, if HE wants what's best for us, and HE knows that we do not understand all the consequences of our actions why does HE let us choose (according to free-will theory)?
Is that permission (to choose evil) good or bad?"

Are these things really such puzzles for you? If I had a son who did not know the consequences of jumping off a 10-floor building then I would have two options:

First, and my choice, would be to inform him what the consequences would be of jumping off a 10-floor building ... that he would die.

Second choice would be to tie him up and lock him in a closet for the rest of his life.


In Christ,
Pilgrimer

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What I asked you was if you would grant him free will and let him jump... I assume than by your answer that you would just "inform" him...
So you would let him jump? Is that it? That would be the action of love?

Sargento said:

PILGRIMER...
I didn't talked about "informed choice"... I talked about free will.

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You stated "they didn't understand the consequences of sin," as if that negates free will. It doesn't. Just because you choose a course of action out of ignorance doesn't mean you didn't choose it, it just means you didn't choose very well.

Sargento said:

You did not answer this:
"Pilgrimer, if HE wants what's best for us, and HE knows that we do not understand all the consequences of our actions why does HE let us choose (according to free-will theory)?
Is that permission (to choose evil) good or bad?"

What I asked you was if you would grant him free will and let him jump... I assume than by your answer that you would just "inform" him...
So you would let him jump? Is that it? That would be the action of love?

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But you are assuming he would choose to jump even knowing he would die and I would be forced to physically restrain him. I assume he would choose not to jump.

But all that is moot anyway. Certainly God could have restrained Adam from sin, but that would have defeated the whole purpose of creation.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Pilgrimer...

You stated "they didn't understand the consequences of sin," as if that negates free will. It doesn't. Just because you choose a course of action out of ignorance doesn't mean you didn't choose it, it just means you didn't choose very well.

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No it means you do not know what you choose... it's a choice with your eyes closed... which is not really a valid choice... it's like taking a chance with the unknown.
It's like "choose one closed hand" ... it's choosing something that you cannot differ from the other choice... choosing in the dark.

I didn't said they didn't choose, choice does not create free-will.
They chose, but they didn't even had a chance of showing free will because at their eyes those choices did not differ for they do not yet understand the difference of good and bad.

But you are assuming he would choose to jump even knowing he would die and I would be forced to physically restrain him. I assume he would choose not to jump.

But all that is moot anyway. Certainly God could have restrained Adam from sin, but that would have defeated the whole purpose of creation.

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I'm assuming he would behave like Adam and choose death by not knowing what death means because someone else told him it was good ... would you let him?


Of course that would have defeated the purpose of creation... thus saying that Adam could choose any other thing is saying that Adam could have defeated the all purpose of creation.
So that is why GOD made him UNABLE to choose anything else... unable to resist temptation... so that HIS plan be flawless.

If man had free will he could make GOD fail at any moment ... the reason that all HIS plan will fulfill is because man does not have free will ... don't you understand this?

Do you think the Antichrist will have free will even if he make choices??

Sargento said:

Pilgrimer...
I didn't said they didn't choose, choice does not create free-will.

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I beg your pardon. The ability of rational beings to choose between alternative courses of action is the very definition of free will.

Sargento said:

They chose, but they didn't even had a chance of showing free will because at their eyes those choices did not differ for they do not yet understand the difference of good and bad.

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They understood the difference between obedience (good) and disobedience (bad), and that is the central issue. It was for Adam and it is for us as well. That's why it is called "faith," because we have to trust God enough to obey Him precisely becausewe do not and never will fully comprehend all the consequences of our choices. "There is a way that seems right to man, but the end thereof is death."

Sargento said:

I'm assuming he would behave like Adam and choose death by not knowing what death means because someone else told him it was good ... would you let him?

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He didn't have to know what death meant, he knew what God told him.

Look, this old philosophical argument has been around for millennia. The issue isn't whether or not men fully understand the consequences of their actions, the issue is whether or not men will, on the one hand, obey God, or will men, on the other hand, make their own choices based on the limited knowledge they have of the consequences. The vast majority choose the latter ... which way leads to death. Does that mean men don't understand what death is? No, it means they either don't believe it, or they don't care. "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die."

Sargento said:

Of course that would have defeated the purpose of creation... thus saying that Adam could choose any other thing is saying that Adam could have defeated the all purpose of creation.
So that is why GOD made him UNABLE to choose anything else... unable to resist temptation... so that HIS plan be flawless.

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God didn't make Adam choose to sin, He didn't have to. God simply knew beforehand what Adam would choose.

God is smart like that.


In Christ,
Pilgrimer

we can never know the impact of our actions - all we can do is make pedictions because we do not know the future.

PILGRIMER...

Pilgrimer said:

1-I beg your pardon. The ability of rational beings to choose between alternative courses of action is the very definition of free will.


2-They understood the difference between obedience (good) and disobedience (bad), and that is the central issue. It was for Adam and it is for us as well. That's why it is called "faith," because we have to trust God enough to obey Him precisely becausewe do not and never will fully comprehend all the consequences of our choices. "There is a way that seems right to man, but the end thereof is death."



3-He didn't have to know what death meant, he knew what God told him.

Look, this old philosophical argument has been around for millennia. The issue isn't whether or not men fully understand the consequences of their actions, the issue is whether or not men will, on the one hand, obey God, or will men, on the other hand, make their own choices based on the limited knowledge they have of the consequences. The vast majority choose the latter ... which way leads to death. Does that mean men don't understand what death is? No, it means they either don't believe it, or they don't care. "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die."



God didn't make Adam choose to sin, He didn't have to. God simply knew beforehand what Adam would choose.

God is smart like that.


In Christ,
Pilgrimer

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1
Do you know what mean "WILL"? And "FREE"?

Free will means that your will is free, not just that you can choose ... even a carnivore (like I already said before) chooses meat over grass, but that does not makes him have free-will, that is just a manifestation of the nature GOD made him with.
It's not free ACTIONS (which do not exist either) is free WILL.

IS YOUR WILL FREE?


2
No they did not now good and evil ... only AFTER they eat the fruit it GOD said:

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gênesis 3:22


3
In order to difference a choice YES he had to know what death was... choosing with eyes closed is not choosing, it's taking a chance between two things that look alike.



DO YOU HAVE FREE WILL?

I'm waiting for your answer...


ASPEN...

we can never know the impact of our actions - all we can do is make pedictions because we do not know the future.

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If you do not know your future how do you have free-will over it? What is the point of making a choice (which does not mean free will) if you do not control what comes of it?
If you do not control the result of your choices what kind of free will is that?
If free will doesn't give control over what you get from your choices what purpose does it serves then???
IT'S IMAGINARY !

In every way or point of view the result will always be the same, DEAD END.

I ask them the same question and await your answer:

DO YOU HAVE FREE WILL?

And i have answered that question before - according to you definition, no one - not even God has free will. this because your definition of free will is incorrect. Free will doesn't include control over anything other than choosing between options - that is it.

broken freewill can only choose between evil chooses because it operates outside the true nature oman and the will of God. Free will in it's perfect form - as excercised by God and pre-fall humanity allows us to make unlimited good chhoices. Adam chose names for all the animals for example.

ASPEN...

Well, in that case i'll ask in a different way.

Are you free to choose what you do?

i am under the curse of the Fall so my freewill is broken - before I recognized God all i could do is make broken choices, based on selfishness - after recognized God, i can recognized unselfish choices and practice making them. after i am fully redeemed and sanctified and kneeling before God in Heaven, my freewill will be repaired and i willl be able to make unlimited good, whole, unbroken, selfless choices for eternity.

Sargento said:

PILGRIMER...

1
Do you know what mean "WILL"? And "FREE"?

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Yes, I do know what free will means, but I don't believe you do. You are arguing that in order for one to have free will they must be omniscient and omnipotent. That's not true. Free will can be exercised even without perfect knowledge of all the consequences and even without absolute control over the outcome. While the leopard is driven by hunger to hunt prey and kill and eat, she has enough intelligence and freedom to choose to attack the sickly calf rather than the wizened bull.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Adam had a wife. She was the one who gave Adam the forbidden fruit that he ate.

Later, when God scolded Adam for eating the forbidden fruit, God told him, "Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ . . ."

Being that Adam was trying to please his wife, did he really have free will?

lforrest said:

Wisdom is the artistry of free will.

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And the master of it.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

ASPEN...

aspen2 said:

i am under the curse of the Fall so my freewill is broken - before I recognized God all i could do is make broken choices, based on selfishness - after recognized God, i can recognized unselfish choices and practice making them. after i am fully redeemed and sanctified and kneeling before God in Heaven, my freewill will be repaired and i willl be able to make unlimited good, whole, unbroken, selfless choices for eternity.

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How can you recognize GOD if all you could do was broken choices?



Pilgrimer...

Yes, I do know what free will means, but I don't believe you do. You are arguing that in order for one to have free will they must be omniscient and omnipotent. That's not true. Free will can be exercised even without perfect knowledge of all the consequences and even without absolute control over the outcome. While the leopard is driven by hunger to hunt prey and kill and eat, she has enough intelligence and freedom to choose to attack the sickly calf rather than the wizened bull.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

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Yes, free will would mean to be GOD.
Free will is not an action to be exercised... WILL IS NOT AN ACTION... don't you know the difference between WILL and ACTIONS?

The leopard is driver by hunger to hunt and the intelligence that makes him choose to attack the sickly calf comes from GOD... what makes the leopard choose one thing and not another?? Isn't because he understands he CAN'T attack another??? Is that freewill??
...just like the ostrich hides his head on the sand when his afraid because GOD did not give him enough intelligence to choose anything else.
IT'S ALL GOD Pilgrimer... that is not freewill.

I can choose not to put my hand in the fire... is that freewill or does my knowledge (which GOD give me) makes me choose that way?
THAT IS NOT FREE WILL.

You choose what you are LEAD to choose by the intelligence and nature GOD has given you... and that is not freewill because everything you are, everything you like and hate is what HE created... you are HIS creation and you react according to what HE made in you.


Iforrest...

No my friend... Free will is the artistry of SIN. ... that's the correct sentence.
Wisdom is fearing GOD.

This would be wisdom.

The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: {but} Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
Isaiah 1:3

Even animals know they're owned, but man does not... he thinks his free.

Sargento said:

ASPEN...

How can you recognize GOD if all you could do was broken choices?.

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Now we are talking! Great question!

1. We do not recognize God unless He reveals Himself to us.

2. I reject the idea of 'total depravity'. We are broken; we are not completely rotted - we are still made in God's image.

3. God sent His Son to become fully human, while remaining fully God to speak our own language so that He could completely relate with us. It would be like me becoming a dog so that I could speak fully to my pet.

4. God did not stop with giving us His Son - He gave us His Spirit to dwell within us and change us from the inside out.

We can recognize God because He has reached out to us in every way possible.