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dragonfly

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Apr 19, 2012
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Hi Retrobyter,

I appreciate your attempts to keep the translation superficial, but I have to say something about Joshua 17:18

18 But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt cut it down: and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong.
KJV

The mountain = thing that is too big for you to deal with, which is cumbering your inheritance in God

shall be thine = prophetic statement in affirmation of God's prior word

for it is a wood = another big thing that is too big for you - the cross that Jesus Christ took upon Himself for us

and you shall cut it down = and through the power of His victory (His death), He will create strength in you

and the outgoings of it shall be thine = instead of it preventing you from overcoming, you will take the spoil it yields in its defeat

for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites = Canaanites means the gods or spirits they worship. As we worship God alone, other spirits clear off.

though they have iron chariots = though all the natural and unnatural power seems to be on their side

and though they be strong = (God knows how strong they are but He is stronger, and) He is well able to strengthen you for the battles.



Do you see any of that, or do you just see a piece of straightforward prophetic narrative?
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:
Hi Retrobyter,

I appreciate your attempts to keep the translation superficial, but I have to say something about Joshua 17:18



The mountain = thing that is too big for you to deal with, which is cumbering your inheritance in God

shall be thine = prophetic statement in affirmation of God's prior word

for it is a wood = another big thing that is too big for you - the cross that Jesus Christ took upon Himself for us

and you shall cut it down = and through the power of His victory (His death), He will create strength in you

and the outgoings of it shall be thine = instead of it preventing you from overcoming, you will take the spoil it yields in its defeat

for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites = Canaanites means the gods or spirits they worship. As we worship God alone, other spirits clear off.

though they have iron chariots = though all the natural and unnatural power seems to be on their side

and though they be strong = (God knows how strong they are but He is stronger, and) He is well able to strengthen you for the battles.



Do you see any of that, or do you just see a piece of straightforward prophetic narrative?
If I WERE to see any of that, I'd want my head examined! No, it is a straightforward HISTORIC narrative. It's simply relating to us how that Efrayim and Mnasheh inherited the mountains of Isra'el (that are TODAY called the "West Bank," btw).

All of that is CERTAINLY not what Y'howshua` intended! I think even GOD HIMSELF would have trouble with all of that! It's a good thing that I'M not God because I think it flies in His FACE to say He intended all of that! He is FAR more merciful and forgiving than I would be in His shoes; I would take it PERSONALLY to think someone would have the GALL to impose his own words on mine, if I were Him. It's the HEIGHT of blasphemy to belittle God, thinking He can't say what He meant to say in the first place!

Now, I understand that y'all mean well, and I am sure that God loves you regardless, but I'd think twice about altering His Word to fit your imaginations, if I were you. You don't yet understand the seriousness of the risk you're taking!
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
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Olam Haba
dragonfly said:
As you know, I think slowly, but you seem to be drawing a specific link between Genesis 1:27 and 1 Corinthians 15:45. My margin links that verse to
John 5:21 and Romans 5:14, but I would like to pick up on what I dug out of BLB's entries on yatsar and `asah... It seems there is quite a difficulty divving up the meanings between them, but this is what I got by way of understanding. That yatsar establishes the physical appearance, or rule/discipline, while `asah is something more about the work/practical expression involved in bringing out what is in God's/one's heart, from God's/one's heart. I can see how these are pretty inseparable in the outworking of both. Am I close? If not, please say more about why the first Adam relates to Genesis 2.

Is there a connection, here, in either of them, to Romans 8:29? I would be interested to know if the Greek lines them up, through the Septuagint.

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.
You ARE straining at that gnat and swallowing a camel! Why is it that every time I read some of the things you write I am reminded of that age-old advice, "Don't make a mountain out of a mole-hill"?

I fear that you have the wrong idea about some of these words: baaraa', for instance, means "to create (from nothing)." The only sense that it can mean "to cut down (a wood)" is in the sense of CLEARING a parcel of ground for a field in which to plant!

That's what Y'howshua` (Joshua) was saying to the childen of Yosef (Joseph):


Joshua 17:14-18
14 And the children of Joseph spake unto Joshua, saying, Why hast thou given me but one lot and one portion to inherit, seeing I am a great people, forasmuch as the Lord hath blessed me hitherto?
15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
16 And the children of Joseph said, The hill is not enough for us: and all the Canaanites that dwell in the land of the valley have chariots of iron, both they who are of Beth-shean and her towns, and they who are of the valley of Jezreel.
17 And Joshua spake unto the house of Joseph, even to Ephraim and to Manasseh, saying, Thou art a great people, and hast great power: thou shalt not have one lot only:
18 But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt cut it down: and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong.
KJV

He's not talking about destroying the woods; he's talking about CREATING CLEARED LAND! It's all a matter of perspective!

As far as the creative process in making a human being, it is important that you understand that Genesis 1:26-27 is talking about the GENERAL while Genesis 2:7ff gets into the particulars. Furthermore, BOTH Genesis 1 and 2 are talking about the SAME EVENT!

God talked about MAKING (`aasaah) the man as to design his body structure out of material that already existed.
Then, He proceeded to take the dust of the ground and FORMED or SHAPED (yaatsar) the body of that man, as a potter would with clay.
HOWEVER, He still CREATED (baaraa') the man! Consider the following verses:


Genesis 5:1-2
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created (Hebrew: bro' from baaraa') man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created (Hebrew: braa'aam from baaraa') he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created (Hebrew: hibaar'aam from bara').
KJV

Deuteronomy 4:32
32 For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created (Hebrew: baaraa') man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?
KJV

Psalm 89:47
47 Remember how short my time is: wherefore hast thou made (Hebrew: baaraa'taa from baaraa') all men in vain?
KJV


Isaiah 45:12
12 I have made the earth, and created (Hebrew: baaraa'tiy from baaraa') man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
KJV

Why do you have such disjoint thinking? Remember how Hebrew literature is constructed. It frequently begins with a summation and THEN goes into the details, backtracking a bit in thought. Genesis 1 talks about the WHOLE week of Creation; Genesis 2 zooms in on Day 6!

dragonfly said:
Hi Retrobyter,

I appreciate your attempts to keep the translation superficial, but I have to say something about Joshua 17:18



The mountain = thing that is too big for you to deal with, which is cumbering your inheritance in God

shall be thine = prophetic statement in affirmation of God's prior word

for it is a wood = another big thing that is too big for you - the cross that Jesus Christ took upon Himself for us

and you shall cut it down = and through the power of His victory (His death), He will create strength in you

and the outgoings of it shall be thine = instead of it preventing you from overcoming, you will take the spoil it yields in its defeat

for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites = Canaanites means the gods or spirits they worship. As we worship God alone, other spirits clear off.

though they have iron chariots = though all the natural and unnatural power seems to be on their side

and though they be strong = (God knows how strong they are but He is stronger, and) He is well able to strengthen you for the battles.



Do you see any of that, or do you just see a piece of straightforward prophetic narrative?

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, dragonfly.


If I WERE to see any of that, I'd want my head examined! No, it is a straightforward HISTORIC narrative. It's simply relating to us how that Efrayim and Mnasheh inherited the mountains of Isra'el (that are TODAY called the "West Bank," btw).

All of that is CERTAINLY not what Y'howshua` intended! I think even GOD HIMSELF would have trouble with all of that! It's a good thing that I'M not God because I think it flies in His FACE to say He intended all of that! He is FAR more merciful and forgiving than I would be in His shoes; I would take it PERSONALLY to think someone would have the GALL to impose his own words on mine, if I were Him. It's the HEIGHT of blasphemy to belittle God, thinking He can't say what He meant to say in the first place!

Now, I understand that y'all mean well, and I am sure that God loves you regardless, but I'd think twice about altering His Word to fit your imaginations, if I were you. You don't yet understand the seriousness of the risk you're taking!
From old time it was only the priests which were allowed to copy Torah and that was only according to the strictest of standards. Yet we see that Yehoshua not just copied Torah but wrote the sixth Sefer Torat Elohim:

Joshua 24:26 KJV
26. And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, ["Sefer Torat Elohim"] and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the Lord.


Yehoshua is the next High Priest after Moshe:


Re: Priesthood - Posts#21-56
Re: Observations of a Spiritual Kind - Posts#2-4

As Retrobyter has clearly revealed he chooses to believe the Masorites who added the vowel pointing to the "new" Babylonian Hebrew alphabet when they composed the Masoretic Text about a thousand years ago, (even though he surely knows the Masorites where not disciples of Messiah Yeshua as were those who authored the writings of the Brit Chadashah). Every one makes his or her own decision, whether one chooses to decide or not to decide, concerning the Scripture and the various translations thereof; whether it be king James and his court, the NIV, ASV, RSV, Young's, or any other translation: when a person chooses to accept one rendering the same has accepted the renderings of another man and-or council of men. I have chosen to accept the testimony in writing of Yehoshua the High Priest as to what I will believe about the word bara' and how it should be understood in its various contexts. Therefore arriving at the forty-fifth chapter of Isaiah we have the testimony, in writing, of Yehoshua the High Priest who penned the sixth rib of Sefer Torat Elohim to take into consideration:

Joshua 17:15-18
15. And Yehoshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and bara'-cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites [ha-Priziy] and the Giants, [ha-Rapha'im] if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
16. And the sons of Yoseph said, The hill is not enough for us: and all the Canaanites that dwell in the land of the valley have chariots of iron, both they who are of Beth-Shean and her towns, and they who are of the valley of Yizreel.
17. And Yehoshua spake unto the house of Yoseph, even to Ephraim and to Manasseh, saying, Thou art a great people, and hast great power: thou shalt not have one lot only:
18. But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt bara'-cut it down: and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong.


Here Yehoshua the High Priest clearly reveals a different meaning for bara' then what in modern times been assumed to be the "traditional" understanding. The question now becomes to the disciple: What does Moshe truly intend when he writes bara' in Genesis? After all Moshe was commanded to give Yehoshua the charge and the anointing; the Father then gives Yehoshua the charge and anointing in the Tent of the Mo`ed, (Deuteronomy 31:14) and then the Scripture states that Yehoshua the son of "Perpetuity" was full of the Spirit of wisdom, (Deuteronomy 34:9). The next question to the disciple of the Word presents itself in Yeshayah. Does Yeshayah know of the interpretation of bara' given from Yehoshua the High Priest who wrote the sixth book of Torat Elohim? Surely he knows of it when he employs bara' because all of the prophets expound Torah. What then does Yeshayah intend when he writes bara' in the forty fifth chapter? And should I believe "king James and his court" or the Masorites who added vowel pointings to the new alphabet and everyone else who followed their suit like all the English translations and Retrobyter? Or should I believe Yehoshua the next High Priest to follow after Moshe? It really comes around full circle once again to the natural and carnal man with his mindset as opposed to the spiritual supernal man with the mindset of Messiah:

IS OUR GOD A CRUEL AND VENGEFUL KILLER WHO "CREATES" EVIL?
OR IS OUR GOD THE GOD OF LOVE WHO "CUTS DOWN" EVIL?

Yeshayah 45:1-13
1. Thus saith YHWH to his mashiyach, to Kowresh,
[Yochanan ha-Qowre' "the Cryer" in the wilderness: Isaiah 40:3, "qowl qowre' - the voice of the Cryer", John 1:22-23] whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3.
And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I am YHWH, Elohey of Yisra'el, ha-Qowre' [ha-Qowre' bshimka] the name of you.
4. For the sake of Yacob my servant, and Yisra'el mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5. I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim without me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is none else.
7. I yatsar-form the light, and bara'-cut down the darkness: I make peace, and bara'-cut down evil: I YHWH do all these things.
8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down tzedek-righteousness! let the earth open up, and let them produce the fruit of Yesha-Salvation! and let tsadakah-righteousness tsemach-sprout forth united! I YHWH did bara'-cut him down!
9. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10. Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11. Thus saith YHWH, the Holy One of Yisra'el and his Yatsar-Former; Of things to come do you demand of me concerning my sons? and concerning the work of my hands do you command me?
12. I have `asah-made the earth and Adam bara'-cut down upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13.
I have raised him up in Tzedek-Righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall banah-build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith YHWH Tsabaoth!

If you listen to the natural man he will tell you that his God intentionally creates evil because all of his translations of men proclaim it to be so. Where this thinking eventually settles in his mind in the end is that he himself is really not guilty of anything because that is how his god has created him. However, if you listen to Moshe, Yehoshua, and Yeshayah haNavi, they will tell you that God cuts down evil like the felling of a mighty tree: "He shall lop off the bough with terror; and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled. He shall cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one!" Yet the way in which the Father did it was in the beginning to first bara'-cut down the Lamb of God from the foundation of the world; For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all who faithfully-believe into him should not perish, but have everlasting life: For in the firstfruits-re'shiyth-beginning Elohim bara'-cut down haShamayim and ha'Erets.


What occurred at Golgotha is the physical fulfillment of what occurred in the Beginning with the supernatural foundation of the world because the first man Adam became a living soul but died, (Genesis 2&3) yet was then clothed upon the fall of the man with his wife, (Genesis 3:21). Adam then "lived" which is revealed by his name having been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, (which is Genesis 5 and the Book of Life mentioned in Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8) and this was because of the work of sacrificial Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, (Genesis 1). :)
 
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Retrobyter

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Shalom, daq.

daq said:
From old time it was only the priests which were allowed to copy Torah and that was only according to the strictest of standards. Yet we see that Yehoshua not just copied Torah but wrote the sixth Sefer Torat Elohim:

Joshua 24:26 KJV
26. And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, ["Sefer Torat Elohim"] and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the Lord.


Yehoshua is the next High Priest after Moshe:


Re: Priesthood - Posts#21-56
Re: Observations of a Spiritual Kind - Posts#2-4

As Retrobyter has clearly revealed he chooses to believe the Masorites who added the vowel pointing to the "new" Babylonian Hebrew alphabet when they composed the Masoretic Text about a thousand years ago, (even though he surely knows the Masorites where not disciples of Messiah Yeshua as were those who authored the writings of the Brit Chadashah). Every one makes his or her own decision, whether one chooses to decide or not to decide, concerning the Scripture and the various translations thereof; whether it be king James and his court, the NIV, ASV, RSV, Young's, or any other translation: when a person chooses to accept one rendering the same has accepted the renderings of another man and-or council of men. I have chosen to accept the testimony in writing of Yehoshua the High Priest as to what I will believe about the word bara' and how it should be understood in its various contexts. Therefore arriving at the forty-fifth chapter of Isaiah we have the testimony, in writing, of Yehoshua the High Priest who penned the sixth rib of Sefer Torat Elohim to take into consideration:

Joshua 17:15-18
15. And Yehoshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and bara'-cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites [ha-Priziy] and the Giants, [ha-Rapha'im] if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.
16. And the sons of Yoseph said, The hill is not enough for us: and all the Canaanites that dwell in the land of the valley have chariots of iron, both they who are of Beth-Shean and her towns, and they who are of the valley of Yizreel.
17. And Yehoshua spake unto the house of Yoseph, even to Ephraim and to Manasseh, saying, Thou art a great people, and hast great power: thou shalt not have one lot only:
18. But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt bara'-cut it down: and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong.


Here Yehoshua the High Priest clearly reveals a different meaning for bara' then what in modern times been assumed to be the "traditional" understanding. The question now becomes to the disciple: What does Moshe truly intend when he writes bara' in Genesis? After all Moshe was commanded to give Yehoshua the charge and the anointing; the Father then gives Yehoshua the charge and anointing in the Tent of the Mo`ed, (Deuteronomy 31:14) and then the Scripture states that Yehoshua the son of "Perpetuity" was full of the Spirit of wisdom, (Deuteronomy 34:9). The next question to the disciple of the Word presents itself in Yeshayah. Does Yeshayah know of the interpretation of bara' given from Yehoshua the High Priest who wrote the sixth book of Torat Elohim? Surely he knows of it when he employs bara' because all of the prophets expound Torah. What then does Yeshayah intend when he writes bara' in the forty fifth chapter? And should I believe "king James and his court" or the Masorites who added vowel pointings to the new alphabet and everyone else who followed their suit like all the English translations and Retrobyter? Or should I believe Yehoshua the next High Priest to follow after Moshe? It really comes around full circle once again to the natural and carnal man with his mindset as opposed to the spiritual supernal man with the mindset of Messiah:

IS OUR GOD A CRUEL AND VENGEFUL KILLER WHO "CREATES" EVIL?
OR IS OUR GOD THE GOD OF LOVE WHO "CUTS DOWN" EVIL?

Yeshayah 45:1-13
1. Thus saith YHWH to his mashiyach, to Kowresh,
[Yochanan ha-Qowre' "the Cryer" in the wilderness: Isaiah 40:3, "qowl qowre' - the voice of the Cryer", John 1:22-23] whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
3.
And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I am YHWH, Elohey of Yisra'el, ha-Qowre' [ha-Qowre' bshimka] the name of you.
4. For the sake of Yacob my servant, and Yisra'el mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
5. I am YHWH, and there is none else, there is no Elohim without me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is none else.
7. I yatsar-form the light, and bara'-cut down the darkness: I make peace, and bara'-cut down evil: I YHWH do all these things.
8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down tzedek-righteousness! let the earth open up, and let them produce the fruit of Yesha-Salvation! and let tsadakah-righteousness tsemach-sprout forth united! I YHWH did bara'-cut him down!
9. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
10. Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?
11. Thus saith YHWH, the Holy One of Yisra'el and his Yatsar-Former; Of things to come do you demand of me concerning my sons? and concerning the work of my hands do you command me?
12. I have `asah-made the earth and Adam bara'-cut down upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
13.
I have raised him up in Tzedek-Righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall banah-build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith YHWH Tsabaoth!

If you listen to the natural man he will tell you that his God intentionally creates evil because all of his translations of men proclaim it to be so. Where this thinking eventually settles in his mind in the end is that he himself is really not guilty of anything because that is how his god has created him. However, if you listen to Moshe, Yehoshua, and Yeshayah haNavi, they will tell you that God cuts down evil like the felling of a mighty tree: "He shall lop off the bough with terror; and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled. He shall cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one!" Yet the way in which the Father did it was in the beginning to first bara'-cut down the Lamb of God from the foundation of the world; For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that all who faithfully-believe into him should not perish, but have everlasting life: For in the firstfruits-re'shiyth-beginning Elohim bara'-cut down haShamayim and ha'Erets.


What occurred at Golgotha is the physical fulfillment of what occurred in the Beginning with the supernatural foundation of the world because the first man Adam became a living soul but died, (Genesis 2&3) yet was then clothed upon the fall of the man with his wife, (Genesis 3:21). Adam then "lived" which is revealed by his name having been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, (which is Genesis 5 and the Book of Life mentioned in Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8) and this was because of the work of sacrificial Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, (Genesis 1). :)
Our God is a God who creates "evil." The problem is not in the word "baaraa'"; it's in one's understanding of "EVIL:"


Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
KJV

In Hebrew:

Yesha`yahuw 45:7

7 Yowtseer oer uwvowree' choshekh `oseh shaalowm uwbowree' raa`; aniy YHWH `oseh kaal eeleh.
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh

7 Yowtseer = 7 I-form
owr = light
uwvowree' = and-I-create
choshekh = darkness;
`oseh = I-make
shaalowm = peace
uwvowree' = and-I-create
raa`; = badness;
aniy = I
YHWH = YHWH
`oseh = I-make
kaal = all
eeleh. = these.

7 I-form light and-I-create darkness; I-make peace and-I-create badness; I YHWH I-make all these.

This shouldn't be that big of a mystery. If God has judged in the past and will judge the world in the future, does He not also create the CONSEQUENCES of the sins? This verse is NOT making the claim that God creates SIN; it is simply saying that God creates the calamities that go hand-in-hand with accumulative RESULTS of sin!

Look at all the ways that raa` is translated in the KJV:

adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displease, displeasure, distress, evil, evil-favouredness, evil man, evil thing, exceedingly (as in terribly), great, grief, grievous, harm, heavy, hurt, hurtful, ill, ill-favored, mrk, mischief, mischievous, misery, naught, naughty, noisome, not please, sad, sadly sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked, wickedly, wickedness, wicked one, worse, worst, wretchedness, and wrong:


OT:7451 ra` (rah); from OT:7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):
KJV - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st), wretchedness, wrong. [Incl. feminine ra`ah; as adjective or noun.].

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

This word is talking about the bad things that happen to mankind BECAUSE of their sin. Things that range from the origin of death and later the Flood to the Fire yet in our future!

Therefore, God DOES create badness!
 

dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
1,882
141
63
UK
Hi Retrobyter,

I'd think twice about altering His Word to fit your imaginations, if I were you. You don't yet understand the seriousness of the risk you're taking!
I think you've said something like this before, but I don't remember replying to this point specifically. So here goes.

Firstly, I am not altering His word at all. I am not adding to scripture, and I am not asking you to believe anything which God Himself has not spoken to you by His Spirit. I fully understand what it is to read the text and see only what is written there, but you must know that God uses what is written as a platform from which to speak.

Here is a striking modern-day example of this. You may know the name David Wilkerson, who founded Times Square Church, NYC? Well, as he got older, he began to seek a younger pastor to continue the work God had called him into. I have no idea how he conducted his search, but one morning, as Carter Conlon was doing his ordinary devotional Bible readings, and he happened to be covering the part where David is explaining how the Lord gave him the instructions for the Temple, but his son would actually bring the work to completion, Carter Conlon understood from the Lord that he would be leaving the church which he was pastoring, and going to join a work of God which had been begun by another man, from whom he would take over.

He was so sure that this is what God had revealed to him, that when he finished his readings, he went to the assistant pastor's study and told him to start preparing to take over, because he was going to be leaving soon. It was not many days before his wife received a call from David Wilkerson, inviting him to preach at TSC, and within about three weeks it was all decided that the Conlons would be moving from Canada to New York.

This is the kind of 'revelation' which happens from time to time for Christians. I have had them myself. In fact, I was reading something completely unrelated to the question I was holding before God, but He still managed to speak to me from the text about a major decision I am making right now. I guess you might find that alarming! But I find it comforting! We walk by faith not by sight. So... what I wrote in the previous post is a rough sketch of a word the Lord gave me as I was reading the last verse in Joshua 17, none of which is possible without both the effect of the cross and the ilumination of the Spirit. I do not expect another person to receive to themselves the same word from that reading, although God is able to give it to them.

This word is talking about the bad things that happen to mankind BECAUSE of their sin. Things that range from the origin of death and later the Flood to the Fire yet in our future!

Therefore, God DOES create badness!
Hmm. Does He really? I thought He brought His curse upon the earth to an end with the Flood, and now what we experience by way of 'badness' has more to do with living in fallen bodies in a fallen creation with fallen people who have rejected the Saviour (or at least, not given themselves to Him), and also, through removing ourselves from His protection and blessing which keeps us from harm according to His will for our lives. The prince of the power of the air still has power, which he exercises through those who worship him with their lives - although I do recognise that God 'brings the devices of the people to nought', and this is a great truth to be enjoyed, when the devices of the people are directed at oneself.

MTPockets had a good way of putting this - that those who are still owned by Satan, will suffer his fate with him as long as they are his 'possessions'.

Iow, isn't most of the 'badness' which people experience on the earth, a straightforward result of their not coming under the shelter of His wing?
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
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0
Olam Haba
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.


Our God is a God who creates "evil." The problem is not in the word "baaraa'"; it's in one's understanding of "EVIL:"


Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
KJV

In Hebrew:

Yesha`yahuw 45:7

7 Yowtseer oer uwvowree' choshekh `oseh shaalowm uwbowree' raa`; aniy YHWH `oseh kaal eeleh.
JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh

7 Yowtseer = 7 I-form
owr = light
uwvowree' = and-I-create
choshekh = darkness;
`oseh = I-make
shaalowm = peace
uwvowree' = and-I-create
raa`; = badness;
aniy = I
YHWH = YHWH
`oseh = I-make
kaal = all
eeleh. = these.

7 I-form light and-I-create darkness; I-make peace and-I-create badness; I YHWH I-make all these.

This shouldn't be that big of a mystery. If God has judged in the past and will judge the world in the future, does He not also create the CONSEQUENCES of the sins? This verse is NOT making the claim that God creates SIN; it is simply saying that God creates the calamities that go hand-in-hand with accumulative RESULTS of sin!

Look at all the ways that raa` is translated in the KJV:

adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, displease, displeasure, distress, evil, evil-favouredness, evil man, evil thing, exceedingly (as in terribly), great, grief, grievous, harm, heavy, hurt, hurtful, ill, ill-favored, mrk, mischief, mischievous, misery, naught, naughty, noisome, not please, sad, sadly sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked, wickedly, wickedness, wicked one, worse, worst, wretchedness, and wrong:


OT:7451 ra` (rah); from OT:7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):
KJV - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st), wretchedness, wrong. [Incl. feminine ra`ah; as adjective or noun.].

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

This word is talking about the bad things that happen to mankind BECAUSE of their sin. Things that range from the origin of death and later the Flood to the Fire yet in our future!

Therefore, God DOES create badness!
There is a good lesson in this dragonfly. Retrobyter wants everyone to completely ignore the very definition of the word which he himself has quoted and rather pick a "more appropriate word" for the moment, in the midst of a debate without thinking it through, and insert that word instead of following the grammatical rules even laid out in the very definition which itself clearly states:

Quote]OT:7451 ra` (rah); from OT:7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):[End quote.

Whether speaking of "creating" or "cutting down" the passage speaks of a moral object which is a noun:

adversity = adjective = bad
affliction = adjective = bad
calamity = adjective = bad
displeasure = adjective = bad
distress = adjective = bad

Egyptian sun god of the same name = personage/entity/noun = evil
evil man = noun = evil
evil thing = noun = evil
evil beast = noun = evil
evil tree = noun = evil

When Retrobyter states that God creates "badness" his statement is patently false because whether he knows it or not what is being stated is that God creates a moral-object-noun if indeed the word bara' means "to create" in this context as he suggests. And, in fact, whether it means "to create" or "to cut down" it speaks in terms of a moral object which is a noun either way. In addition to this Retrobyter has now completely ignored the statement from 1 Corinthians 15:47 KJV which he himself just quoted in the other thread:

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy:
the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Since "the first Adam" was formed out from the dust of the earth, ('adamah) we know to which Adam this refers:

Genesis 2:4-7 KJV
4. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5. And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


The Scripture is clear that this Adam was yatsar-formed BEFORE there was any plant or herb in the earth. The same cannot be said of the Adam which is bara'-cut down in the first chapter of Genesis because the plants, herbs, and fruit trees were all brought forth from the earth in the third yom and that Adam was bara'-cut down in the sixth yom. Since every living soul was theoretically in the loins of the first Adam then all mankind was technically "in the first Adam" when he fell, ("For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive"). This implies that no one man could ever have been considered "the Second Adam" because all mankind is technically included in the first Adam. Therefore only Yeshua the Son of man can be "the Second Adam" of which Paul speaks in the above passage. Here then is the problem which Retrobyter has not addressed or failed to comprehend: IF indeed Yeshua the Lamb of God having been slain from the foundation of the world is "the Second Adam" of Genesis 1:26-27 then it is he first which was given dominion over all the earth and then all those in him whether male or female, ("I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing"). Thus all things were indeed made dia-through him from the foundation of the world and then even the first man Adam was "revitalized" through the Spirit of the Second Adam given after Adam and Eve had fallen by the transgression. Retrobyter is unwittingly stating that Yeshua was bara'-created when he demands that bara' means what he claims that it means.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:
Hi Retrobyter,


I think you've said something like this before, but I don't remember replying to this point specifically. So here goes.

Firstly, I am not altering His word at all. I am not adding to scripture, and I am not asking you to believe anything which God Himself has not spoken to you by His Spirit. I fully understand what it is to read the text and see only what is written there, but you must know that God uses what is written as a platform from which to speak.

Here is a striking modern-day example of this. You may know the name David Wilkerson, who founded Times Square Church, NYC? Well, as he got older, he began to seek a younger pastor to continue the work God had called him into. I have no idea how he conducted his search, but one morning, as Carter Conlon was doing his ordinary devotional Bible readings, and he happened to be covering the part where David is explaining how the Lord gave him the instructions for the Temple, but his son would actually bring the work to completion, Carter Conlon understood from the Lord that he would be leaving the church which he was pastoring, and going to join a work of God which had been begun by another man, from whom he would take over.

He was so sure that this is what God had revealed to him, that when he finished his readings, he went to the assistant pastor's study and told him to start preparing to take over, because he was going to be leaving soon. It was not many days before his wife received a call from David Wilkerson, inviting him to preach at TSC, and within about three weeks it was all decided that the Conlons would be moving from Canada to New York.

This is the kind of 'revelation' which happens from time to time for Christians. I have had them myself. In fact, I was reading something completely unrelated to the question I was holding before God, but He still managed to speak to me from the text about a major decision I am making right now. I guess you might find that alarming! But I find it comforting! We walk by faith not by sight. So... what I wrote in the previous post is a rough sketch of a word the Lord gave me as I was reading the last verse in Joshua 17, none of which is possible without both the effect of the cross and the ilumination of the Spirit. I do not expect another person to receive to themselves the same word from that reading, although God is able to give it to them.


Hmm. Does He really? I thought He brought His curse upon the earth to an end with the Flood, and now what we experience by way of 'badness' has more to do with living in fallen bodies in a fallen creation with fallen people who have rejected the Saviour (or at least, not given themselves to Him), and also, through removing ourselves from His protection and blessing which keeps us from harm according to His will for our lives. The prince of the power of the air still has power, which he exercises through those who worship him with their lives - although I do recognise that God 'brings the devices of the people to nought', and this is a great truth to be enjoyed, when the devices of the people are directed at oneself.

MTPockets had a good way of putting this - that those who are still owned by Satan, will suffer his fate with him as long as they are his 'possessions'.

Iow, isn't most of the 'badness' which people experience on the earth, a straightforward result of their not coming under the shelter of His wing?
You're not so difficult to talk to as is daq. You still have some sensibility to what is being said.

Walking by faith does not mean blindly following one's whim or a whimsical thought (revelation). It means to TRUST GOD, REGARDLESS the choices we make! Most don't understand these verses this way, but here's some verses I would like to share and share with you this lesson:

Proverbs 3:5-6

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
KJV

I was taught to memorize these verses early in life, but I really didn't understand them until I was ... oh ... in my thirties or forties, sometime after I had my first lesson from Scripture on how the Will of God is different from His Plan. It wasn't until I had also studied about what is God's "hatred." Let me also pull up those verses:


Malachi 1:2-4
2 "I have loved you," saith the LORD. Yet ye say, "Wherein hast thou loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" saith the LORD: "yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
4 Whereas Edom saith, "We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places"; thus saith the LORD of hosts, "They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, 'The border of wickedness,' and, 'The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.'"
KJV (quotation marks supplied)

Romans 9:9-16
9 For this is the word of promise, "At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son."
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, "The elder shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
14 What shall we say then? "Is there unrighteousness with God?" God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
KJV (quotation marks supplied)

As in most things, all God has to do is REMOVE His hand of blessing to curse someone. By taking AWAY His favor and leaving one to the elements of this earth's harshness, He effectively demonstrates His hatred. God's hatred is mostly INDIFFERENCE! Just as children (and animals) spell "love" as "T-I-M-E" (to quote James Dobson), "hate" is spelled "N-O T-I-M-E." Without God's blessing on a person, the normal course of decay and the entropy of thermodynamics will do His job for Him!

So, when we read Proverbs 3:5 and 6, pay attention to the pronouns:

5 (You) Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and (you) lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

The point is this: Regardless the plans WE make, HE know the future; we DON'T. All we need do is acknowledge HIM and trust in HIM, and WHATEVER our ways (Hebrew: d'raakheykhaa - "your roads") - our choices - our plans, HE will DIRECT our actual paths (Hebrew: orchoteykhaa - "your travels") - our footsteps - the actual direction we go! He puts it in our hearts what we end up loving, whether that be science or cars or construction or computers or sports or the military or whatever, as far as an occupation is concerned. So, He already knows the plans we will make based upon those loves. But, when we make such plans, it's not our place to make those plans inflexibly! We must "write them in pencil" because God MAY CHANGE WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS! All we need do is "ACKNOWLEDGE" (Hebrew: daa`eehuw from yaada` meaning "to know") HIM - GOD and TRUST HIM! Obviously, to "KNOW God" is more than just a casual acquaintance and is not a "we have arrived" kind of thing! It's an ON-GOING learning process!

I've known some teenagers who have asked, "How will I know that the person I've met is the one I should marry?" implying that there is a "Mr. Right" or a "Miss Right" that God has picked out especially for them. They will pray and ask God, "Who do you want me to marry?" And, it's as though God replies, "Well, who do you want to marry?" They'll say back, "No! No! You don't understand! I want to marry who YOU want me to marry!" And God says, "I want you to marry who YOU want to marry and be happy, so who makes you happy?" God doesn't SAY who He knows one will marry! The knowledge about the future is HIS domain, and He doesn't share that information lightly! THE FUTURE IS NONE OF OUR BUSINESS! Just get to know God better and TRUST HIM! There are a couple of guidelines that we can share with such seekers like "make sure the other person loves God and is a believer" and "make sure it is a MUTUAL love," but when all is said and done, it doesn't matter WHO we marry as long as we do what is RIGHTEOUS with that other person, which IS His Will for us! This will lead to the conclusion that we should not be looking for a "Mr. Right" or a "Miss Right," because haSatan can deceive such a person into thinking that they've "missed God's choice" for him or her, or "missed God's Perfect Will for their lives!" I've actually known people to divorce the "wrong one" so they could marry "God's choice" instead! But, God's Will doesn't include divorce!


1 Corinthians 7:27
27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
KJV



1 Thessalonians 4:1-7
1 Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
KJV


So, we must be careful with the "revelation" thing. One should not go seeking for a revelation with "Bible roulette." Y'know, setting one's Bible on its spine and letting it fall open to a random location and with blinded eyes, setting one's finger down on a verse!

One guy did this and the first time he opened his Bible, his finger landed on Matthew 27:5:


Matthew 27:5
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
KJV

Wanting some clarification as to what this might mean, he tried again:


Luke 10:37
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.
KJV

Oh, and btw, no, the Flood did not end the curse on the earth anymore than it ended the curse on the woman in childbirth. The thorns and thistles are still there; death and decay are still there. People and animals still get old and die. And we must still eat bread from the sweat of our brow. It is not until Revelation 21 that the curse is finally lifted.
Shalom, daq.

daq said:
There is a good lesson in this dragonfly. Retrobyter wants everyone to completely ignore the very definition of the word which he himself has quoted and rather pick a "more appropriate word" for the moment, in the midst of a debate without thinking it through, and insert that word instead of following the grammatical rules even laid out in the very definition which itself clearly states:

Quote]OT:7451 ra` (rah); from OT:7489; bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):[End quote.

Whether speaking of "creating" or "cutting down" the passage speaks of a moral object which is a noun:

adversity = adjective = bad
affliction = adjective = bad
calamity = adjective = bad
displeasure = adjective = bad
distress = adjective = bad

Egyptian sun god of the same name = personage/entity/noun = evil
evil man = noun = evil
evil thing = noun = evil
evil beast = noun = evil
evil tree = noun = evil

When Retrobyter states that God creates "badness" his statement is patently false because whether he knows it or not what is being stated is that God creates a moral-object-noun if indeed the word bara' means "to create" in this context as he suggests. And, in fact, whether it means "to create" or "to cut down" it speaks in terms of a moral object which is a noun either way. In addition to this Retrobyter has now completely ignored the statement from 1 Corinthians 15:47 KJV which he himself just quoted in the other thread:

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth, earthy:
the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Since "the first Adam" was formed out from the dust of the earth, ('adamah) we know to which Adam this refers:

Genesis 2:4-7 KJV
4. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5. And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6. But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


The Scripture is clear that this Adam was yatsar-formed BEFORE there was any plant or herb in the earth. The same cannot be said of the Adam which is bara'-cut down in the first chapter of Genesis because the plants, herbs, and fruit trees were all brought forth from the earth in the third yom and that Adam was bara'-cut down in the sixth yom. Since every living soul was theoretically in the loins of the first Adam then all mankind was technically "in the first Adam" when he fell, ("For as in Adam all die, even so in Messiah shall all be made alive"). This implies that no one man could ever have been considered "the Second Adam" because all mankind is technically included in the first Adam. Therefore only Yeshua the Son of man can be "the Second Adam" of which Paul speaks in the above passage. Here then is the problem which Retrobyter has not addressed or failed to comprehend: IF indeed Yeshua the Lamb of God having been slain from the foundation of the world is "the Second Adam" of Genesis 1:26-27 then it is he first which was given dominion over all the earth and then all those in him whether male or female, ("I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing"). Thus all things were indeed made dia-through him from the foundation of the world and then even the first man Adam was "revitalized" through the Spirit of the Second Adam given after Adam and Eve had fallen by the transgression. Retrobyter is unwittingly stating that Yeshua was bara'-created when he demands that bara' means what he claims that it means.
I HARDLY want everyone to ignore completely the definition! The problem is obviously making God the Source of evil in the sense of moral evil or sin. You've chose to alter the verb; I've chosen to alter the direct object. You've changed "to create" to "to cut down"; I've changed "evil" to "badness." (Leave the "Egyptian sun god" out of this; we don't KNOW that there's a connection!)

The Hebrew word "ra`" is NOT always a "moral object noun!" You weren't paying attention to your own quotation! The two connectives in the definition you provided are "OR," not "AND!"

Being an old-style computer programmer with computer engineering training, I WELL understand the difference!

"OR" is a circuit with switches in parallel controlling a light. Throwing either switch to the "on" position (or both) will result in a completed circuit, making the light come on.

"AND" is a circuit with switches in series controlling a light. BOTH switches MUST be switched to the "on" position for the circuit to be completed; only then will the light come on.

Now, look at Strong's definition for baaraa':


OT:1254 baaraa' (baw-raw'); a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): -choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word baaraa' is a primitive root that "ABSOLUTELY" means "to create," and it must be "QUALIFIED" to mean "to cut down (a wood)," or "select," or "feed" as "FORMATIVE processes!" They're not definitions meaning to tear something down; they are definitions that FORM something! POSITIVE, NOT NEGATIVE!

I'M "completely ignoring 1 Cor. 15:45-47"?! Are you even paying attention to yourself?!

You said, "The Scripture is clear that this Adam was yatsar-formed BEFORE there was any plant or herb in the earth. The same cannot be said of the Adam which is bara'-cut down in the first chapter of Genesis because the plants, herbs, and fruit trees were all brought forth from the earth in the third yom and that Adam was bara'-cut down in the sixth yom." One doesn't NEED to see Yeshua` as the SECOND Adam, by the way, in Genesis 1 and 2 because...


John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
KJV

John 17:24
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
KJV

1 Peter 1:18-21
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
KJV

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV
 

daq

HSN#1851
Feb 9, 2013
821
63
0
Olam Haba
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, dragonfly.


If I WERE to see any of that, I'd want my head examined! No, it is a straightforward HISTORIC narrative. It's simply relating to us how that Efrayim and Mnasheh inherited the mountains of Isra'el (that are TODAY called the "West Bank," btw).

All of that is CERTAINLY not what Y'howshua` intended! I think even GOD HIMSELF would have trouble with all of that! It's a good thing that I'M not God because I think it flies in His FACE to say He intended all of that! He is FAR more merciful and forgiving than I would be in His shoes; I would take it PERSONALLY to think someone would have the GALL to impose his own words on mine, if I were Him. It's the HEIGHT of blasphemy to belittle God, thinking He can't say what He meant to say in the first place!

Now, I understand that y'all mean well, and I am sure that God loves you regardless, but I'd think twice about altering His Word to fit your imaginations, if I were you. You don't yet understand the seriousness of the risk you're taking!

The carnal man is always the greatest perpetrator of his own accusations and your ego has reached his "HEIGHT". . . :)


Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq.


I HARDLY want everyone to ignore completely the definition! The problem is obviously making God the Source of evil in the sense of moral evil or sin. You've chose to alter the verb; I've chosen to alter the direct object. You've changed "to create" to "to cut down"; I've changed "evil" to "badness." (Leave the "Egyptian sun god" out of this; we don't KNOW that there's a connection!)

The Hebrew word "ra`" is NOT always a "moral object noun!" You weren't paying attention to your own quotation! The two connectives in the definition you provided are "OR," not "AND!"

Being an old-style computer programmer with computer engineering training, I WELL understand the difference!

"OR" is a circuit with switches in parallel controlling a light. Throwing either switch to the "on" position (or both) will result in a completed circuit, making the light come on.

"AND" is a circuit with switches in series controlling a light. BOTH switches MUST be switched to the "on" position for the circuit to be completed; only then will the light come on.

Now, look at Strong's definition for baaraa':


OT:1254 baaraa' (baw-raw'); a primitive root; (absolutely) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): -choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The word baaraa' is a primitive root that "ABSOLUTELY" means "to create," and it must be "QUALIFIED" to mean "to cut down (a wood)," or "select," or "feed" as "FORMATIVE processes!" They're not definitions meaning to tear something down; they are definitions that FORM something! POSITIVE, NOT NEGATIVE!

I'M "completely ignoring 1 Cor. 15:45-47"?! Are you even paying attention to yourself?!

You said, "The Scripture is clear that this Adam was yatsar-formed BEFORE there was any plant or herb in the earth. The same cannot be said of the Adam which is bara'-cut down in the first chapter of Genesis because the plants, herbs, and fruit trees were all brought forth from the earth in the third yom and that Adam was bara'-cut down in the sixth yom." One doesn't NEED to see Yeshua` as the SECOND Adam, by the way, in Genesis 1 and 2 because...


John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
KJV

John 17:24
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
KJV

1 Peter 1:18-21
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
KJV

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV
It is appalling how you steal the points of other posters and attempt to make them your own. It is "either-or", you cannot have it both ways, if you change "evil" into "bad" you have changed an object-noun into an adjective in this context. That is exactly why it is mostly rendered as "evil" instead of "bad" or badness as you suggest. Your word games are nothing more than word sorcery to change what the Scripture states into your paradigm-mindset and make the Scripture say what you desire it to say. As for bara' I did not change it from what Yehoshua says it means but rather the Masorites and the translators who followed suit are the ones who changed it from what Yehoshua says it means. I simply changed it back to what a High Priest over the sons of Yisrael wrote and said that it means by the context in which he employed it. As for Yeshua being the only one that may be considered "the Second Adam" you did not address anything which was stated as to the reasons why. It stands that he is the only one because all of us were already in the loins of the first Adam when he fell and therefore nobody else can possibly be considered a "second Adam" except for him. Therefore you likewise have no comprehension whatsoever of the writings and teachings of Paul. Likewise Yeshua is the express image of God as written in the Epistle to the Hebrews; "Being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." This is the same Adam from the first chapter of Genesis, (which is the Second Adam). As for John 1:3 it employs dia exactly as I stated which is "through" as in the sense of "the channel of an action" even according to the very definition of the word. However, you have created yet another contradiction in your doctrine and Scripture because of what you state and because you clearly do not believe the clear statement of the Master from the very same Gospel account:

John 14:24 KJV
24. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

It is not "rema", it is not "logoi", (plural which would be rendered "words") but rather Logos:

John 14:24 TUA
24. Ho me agapon me tous logous mouou terei. Kai ho logos hon akouete ouk estin emos allatou pempsantos me Patros.

John 14:24
24. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the Logos which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

So then when you arrive here:

Revelation 19:12-16 KJV
12. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15. And out of his
mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


YOU ARE COMPLETELY OBLIVIOUS AS TO WHOM IT SPEAKS. :)
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, daq.


Oh, c'mon. You know and I know that I am not God! That's not what I'm talking about. (So, keep you opinion about the height of my ego to yourself.) I'm only talking about how it would make me feel to twist my words like you're twisting God's words! Fortunately for you, it doesn't matter what I feel about it. On the other hand, it makes all the difference in the world how God feels about it! THAT'S why I say it's a risky business! But, you go ahead and play your little game, and we'll see how it plays out when you stand before Yeshua` to receive those things you've done in your flesh.


Now, you DO know that the Yehowshuwa` of Joshua 17:14-18 is NOT EVEN the same person as Yehowshuwa` Kohen haGadol, don't you?


Joshua 14:1
1 And these are the countries which the children of Israel inherited in the land of Canaan, which Eleazar the priest, and Joshua the son of Nun, and the heads of the fathers of the tribes of the children of Israel, distributed for inheritance to them.
KJV


Haggai 1:1-2
1 In the second year of Darius the king, in the sixth month, in the first day of the month, came the word of the Lord by Haggai the prophet unto Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest, saying,
2 Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, This people say, The time is not come, the time that the Lord 's house should be built.
KJV

Zechariah 6:11-13
11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;
12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord :
13 Even he shall build the temple of the Lord ; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
KJV

There's a CONSIDERABLE time period between the two Yehowshuwa`s!

The first one, ben Nuwn, the son of Nun (pronounced "noon"), was NOT a high priest, although he WAS the one who inherited the leadership of the children of Isra'el after Moshe (Moses) died, LONG BEFORE the reigns of David and Shlomo (Solomon) and the construction of the first Temple.

The second one, ben Yehowtsaadaaq, the son of Josedech, who WAS the Kohen haGadol (the High Priest), was a contemporary of Zerubavel (Zerubbabel), Chaggai (Haggai), and Z'kharyahu (Zechariah), AFTER the destruction of the first Temple, AFTER the Babylonian and Persian captivity, and DURING the encouragement to rebuild the Temple!


Secondly, I didn't address your "reasons" for Yeshua` being found as the SECOND ADAM (allegedly in Genesis 1), because they are NON-REASONS! They are NOT REASONABLE! There's NOTHING to suggest that the Adam of Genesis 1 is different than the Adam of Genesis 2 AT ALL!!! That's all a fabrication from YOUR imagination to fit YOUR paradigm!


You've misunderstood Genesis 2:1-7 by forgetting that chapter divisions are neither inspired nor are they definitively divided. They're pretty arbitrary, although the makers of the divisions tried to divide the books into subject-oriented chapters. Have you even seen a Torah scroll? It flows pretty much together as one long document that's even barely divided between books! One has to know the Torah pretty well to find a particular place within the Torah. That's why when the Jews and Messianic Jews read through the Torah each year, they leave the scrolls at that particular reading, cover the Torah with a Talit-like covering (complete with Tzit-tzitiym or tassels), and place it in an ark. On Simchat Torah, once each year, a special holiday, they will roll the Torah scroll back to the beginning, reading both the end of Deuteronomy (Deut. 33:1-34:12) before the roll-back and the beginning of Genesis (Gen. 1:1-2:3) afterward.

Thus, Genesis 1:1 through 2:3 is the first description of the full week of Creation, including the Shabbat (the Rest) on Yom HaShviy`iy, the Seventh Day. Then, the text GOES BACK to fill in some of the details, leading up to the sixth day again: Some basic facts needed to be included:

B'reshiyt 2:4-7
4 Eeeleh towldowt hashaamayim vhaa'aarets bhibaar'aam byowm `ashowt YHWH Elohiym erets vshaamaayim:
5 vkhol siyach hassaadeh Terem yihyeh baa'aarets vkhaal `eeseV hassaadeh Terem yitsmaach kiy lo' himTiyr YHWH Elohiym `al haa'aarets v'aadaam ayin la`aVod et haa'adaamaah:
6 V'eed ya`aleh min haa'aarets vhishqaah et kaal pneey haa'adaamaah:
7 Vayiytser YHWH Elohiym et haa'aadaam `aafaar min haa'adaamaah vayipach b'apaayv nishmat chayiym vayhiy haa'aadaam lnefesh chayaah:

These are the descents (history) of the skies and the earth when they were created:

1. YHWH God made in each day the earth and the skies (Days 2 and 3, vs. 4)
2. YHWH God made every plant of the field before it was in the earth (Day 3, vs. 5)
3. YHWH God made every herb of the field before it grew (Day 3, vs. 5)
4. YHWH God had not caused it to rain upon the earth (from Day 1 to Day 5, vs. 5)
5. There was not yet a man to till the ground (from Day 1 to Day 5, vs. 5)
6. A mist went up from the earth and watered all the surface of the ground (from Day 3 to Day 5, vs. 6)

THEN, Moshe gets to verse 7 happening on Day 6:

7. And YHWH God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed in his nostrils breath of life (and) the man became to a living, breathing-being. (Day 6, vs. 7)

YHWH God --> earth --> field --> plants --> herbs --> the creation of man
YHWH God --> earth --> field --> plants --> herbs --> animals
YHWH God --> skies --> (air to breathe) --> breath of life --> the creation of man
YHWH God --> earth --> (seas below the sky) --> mist instead of rain --> plants

These verses are showing the LINKAGE between the events of each day and how each day's events prepare for the next events in YHWH'S plan!

Thus, when He got to creating the Man, all of the pieces were in place to create his environment and allow that Man to live!
 

daq

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Retrobyter you are making things up to make yourself look "smarter" than anyone else. You claim to "see" yet you cannot even see your own hypocrisy in that it is you who is constantly throwing around your own opinion as if it has the authority of God behind it, (when most of the time you have no Scripture to back up the things you say). In the same sentence where you tell me to keep my opinions to myself you turn and accuse me of twisting the words of your god. You are the one who says that both myself and dragonfly are twisting the words of God and it is the "HEIGHT of blasphemy!" How can you accuse others of reaching "the HEIGHT of blasphemy" when you have no evidence of your claim? In fact it reveals who your gods really are and those are apparently the Masorites who added the vowel pointings for you because them you accept even though they contradict Joshua the son of Nun who was the next High Priest to follow Moshe; yet you likewise know that they were not disciples of Messiah Yeshua and there are surely things that have been found wanting and even altered when compared with the newly discovered Dead Sea Scrolls and even the Septuagint which all of the New Testament authors quote from. As for having seen a Torah Scroll that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, (are you foolishly suggesting that the opening chapter of Genesis is not how it is written in the Scrolls or just attempting to create more confusion to make yourself look good?). I only speak in terms of chapters because that is how most everyone here reads the Scripture. You are intentionally causing confusion so as to muddy the waters like your fathers because it is clearly evident that you have no clue concerning what things we speak here, (which are currently the words of Paul concerning the first Adam, the second Adam, and the last Adam, and the first two chapters of Genesis concerning Adam #1 and Adam #2). The first Adam was formed in what we now understand to be the second chapter of Genesis even though there are no "chapters" in the Scrolls. The first Adam was clearly formed BEFORE there was any plant or herb in the 'erets-earth according to Torah. The first Adam which was taken out from the dust of the 'adamah and became a living soul is therefore the second Adam to be mentioned in the text even though he is THE FIRST ADAM. The writing therefore "unfolds" much like the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua. Thus what we now understand to be the second "chapter" of Genesis is written in "retro" fashion where the author returns to previous subject matter and fills in details which were not placed in the opening account, (one would think that with your screen name you might be capable of comprehending this style of writing). Therefore Paul is correct and my understanding of him is correct because the Adam in what we now know as the first "chapter" of Genesis was `asah-caused to become "an Adam" only AFTER all the plants, herbs, and fruit trees came forth from the 'erets-earth, (which plants, herbs, and fruit trees came forth in the third day according to Torah).

This is not your own kindergarten class and we are not all your own little prodigal students whom you are free to reprimand at will or easily deceive; neither do I intend to be waiting around for you, and for the same reason you continue falling further behind because you believe yourself to already "see" when in reality you are a blind false accuser of the brethren attempting to subvert everything that proves your mindset is based in temporal flesh and falsehood. ;)
 

daq

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ENOCH2010 said:
daq are you now saying that the first Adam is the Lord Jesus and the second Adam was Adam the first person?
Do I speak from my own self as Retrobyter does? or do I speak from what is written?

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth,
earthy: [GSN#5517 choikos] the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Original Strong's Ref. #5517
Romanized choikos
Pronounced kho-ik-os'
from GSN5522; dusty or dirty (soil-like), i.e. (by implication) terrene:
KJV--earthy.


1 Corinthians 15:45-47 RSV
45. Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46. But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.
47. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.


"Howbeit" the order in which it is written is not necessarily the order in which it occurred . . . :)
 
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ENOCH2010

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daq said:
Do I speak from my own self as Retrobyter does? or do I speak from what is written?

1 Corinthians 15:45-47 KJV
45. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47. The first man is of the earth,
earthy: [GSN#5517 choikos] the second man is the Lord from heaven.


Original Strong's Ref. #5517
Romanized choikos
Pronounced kho-ik-os'
from GSN5522; dusty or dirty (soil-like), i.e. (by implication) terrene:
KJV--earthy.


1 Corinthians 15:45-47 RSV
45. Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46. But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.
47. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.


"Howbeit" the order in which it is written is not necessarily the order in which it occurred . . . :)
I don't think you answered my question daq , now I have to ask, are you saying God created 2 Adams 1 Eve and 1 Lilith? I'm still trying to make sense of your posts, they seem to be above my pay grade.
 

daq

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Feb 9, 2013
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ENOCH2010 said:
I don't think you answered my question daq , now I have to ask, are you saying God created 2 Adams 1 Eve and 1 Lilith? I'm still trying to make sense of your posts, they seem to be above my pay grade.
When and where have you ever answered any of my questions to you? I said nothing of "Lilith" and likewise I have nothing for sale regardless of your pay grade. Paul answers your question in the passage quoted above. Yeshua also answers your question when he says "I am the Vine and you are the branches" and "Apart from me you can do nothing." Likewise your soul is inoperable and dead without the Spirit of Messiah, (who offered up his own body upon the cross and poured out his own soul unto death before commending his Spirit into the hands of the Father). Howbeit, for the sake of Retrobyter, perhaps an answer from a perspective without the chapters and verse numbers will suffice; and if you still have more questions after that then perhaps you may need to inquire of Retrobyter and work out a payment plan with him. :)

In the re'shiyth-firstfruits-beginning cut down 'Elohiym ha-shamayim and ha'arets. And ha'arets was desolate, and void-empty, and darkness was upon the face of thowm-abyss. And Ruwach 'Elohiym moved upon the face of ha-mayim. And said 'Elohiym, Let there be light: and there was light. And beheld 'Elohiym the light, that it was good: and divided 'Elohiym the light from the darkness. And called 'Elohiym the light, Yom, and the darkness called he Laylah. And was `ereb, and was boqer; Yom 'Echad [First Day]. These are the generations of ha-shamayim and ha'arets when they were cut down; in a yom made YHWH 'Elohiym 'erets and shamayim, And every plant of the field not yet was in ha'arets, and every herb of the field not yet tsemach-sprouted: for not had YHWH 'Elohiym rained upon ha'arets, and 'adam was not for to till ha'adamah. But there went up a mist out from ha'arets and watered the whole face of ha'adamah. And formed YHWH 'Elohiym ha'adam of the dust of ha'adamah, and breathed into his nostrils nshamat chayiym; and became ha'adam into a nephesh chayah. And said 'Elohiym, Let there be a raqiya` in the midst of ha-mayim, and let it divide between mayim la-mayim. And `asah-made 'Elohiym ha-raqiya`, and divided ha-mayim which were beneath la-raqiya` from ha-mayim which were above la-raqiya`, and it was so. And called 'Elohiym la-raqiya`, Shamayim. And was `ereb, and was boqer; Yom Sheniy [Second Day]. And said 'Elohiym, Let ha-mayim under ha-Shamayim be gathered together unto one place, and let appear ha-yabbashah-dry-land: and it was so. And called 'Elohiym ha-yabbashah, 'Erets, and the gathering together of ha-mayim called he Yamiym: and beheld 'Elohiym that it was good. And said 'Elohiym, Let ha'arets sprout tender green grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon ha'arets: and it was so. And birthed ha'arets tender green grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and beheld 'Elohiym, that it was good. And YHWH 'Elohiym struck in a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put ha'adam which he had formed. And YHWH 'Elohiym caused to tsemach-sprout out from ha'adamah every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and ra`. And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. The name of the first is Piyshon: that is it which compasseth the whole 'erets ha-Chavilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that ha'arets is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. And the name of the second river is Giychon: the same is it that compasseth the whole 'erets Kush. And the name of the third river is Chiddekel: that is it which walketh qidmat-eastward, Asshur. And the fourth river is Prath. And took YHWH 'Elohiym ha'adam, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And commanded YHWH 'Elohiym over-against ha'adam, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and ra`, thou shalt not eat mimenuw: for in the day that thou eatest mimenuw; dying thou shalt die! And said YHWH 'Elohiym, It is not good that ha'adam should be alone; I will make for him an helper as neged-counterpart. And formed YHWH 'Elohiym out from ha'adamah every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto ha'adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever ha'adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. And ha'adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field, but for 'adam not was found an helper as neged-counterpart to-for him. And caused to fall YHWH 'Elohiym a deep sleep over ha'adam, and he slept: and he took one from his ribs, and shut up the flesh beneath; And built YHWH 'Elohiym, of the rib which he had taken out from ha'adam, into an 'ishah, and brought her unto ha'adam. And said ha'adam, This ha-pa`am is bone from my bones, and flesh out from my flesh: this shall be called 'Ishshah, for out from 'iysh was taken this! Therefore shall an 'iysh leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his 'ishah: and they shall be for one basar-flesh. And they were both naked, ha'adam and his 'ishah, and were not ashamed. Now the nachash was more subtle than any chayat-beast of the field which YHWH 'Elohiym had made. And he said unto ha'ishah, Yea, hath 'Elohiym said, You shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And said ha'ishah to hanachash, From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, 'Elohiym hath said, Not shall you eat mimenuw, neither shall you touch it, lest you die. And said hanachash unto ha'ishah, Not dying shalt thou die: For 'Elohiym doth know that in the yom wherein you eat mimenuw, then shall your eyes be opened, and you shall be as 'elohiym, knowing good and ra`. And when saw ha'ishah that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her 'iyshah-man with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. And they heard the voice of YHWH 'Elohiym walking in the garden in the Ruwach of the yom: and ha'adam and his 'ishah hid themselves from the presence of YHWH 'Elohiym in the midst the trees of the garden. And called YHWH 'Elohiym unto ha'adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that mimenuw thou shalt not eat? And said ha'adam, Ha'ishah whom thou gavest with me to be, she gave to me of the tree, and I did eat. And said YHWH 'Elohiym unto ha'ishah, What is this that thou hast done? And said ha'ishah, Hanachash beguiled me, and I did eat. And said YHWH 'Elohiym unto hanachash, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all ha-bhemah, and above every chayat-beast of the field; according to thy belly thou shalt walk, and dust shalt thou eat all ymey-days of the chayey-life of you: And I will put enmity between thee and ha'ishah, and between thy seed and her seed; he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto ha'ishah he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be toward the 'iysh-man of you, and he shall rule over you. And to 'Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy 'ishah, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat mimenuw: cursed is ha'adamah for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the ymey-days of the chayey-life of you; Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto ha'adamah; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. And called ha'adam the name of his 'ishah, Chavah; for she was the mother of all chay-living. And `asah-made YHWH 'Elohiym for 'Adam and for his 'ishah, kthonot-`owr, and clothed them. And said YHWH 'Elohiym, Behold, ha'adam is become as 'echad mimenuw, to know good and ra`, and now lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore YHWH 'Elohiym sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till ha'adamah from whence he was taken. So he drove out ha'adam; and he caused to inhabit, from the east of the garden of Eden, haKrubim, and a blazing sword which turned every way to keep the Way of the tree of ha-chayiym-life. And was `ereb, and was boqer; Yom Shliyshiy [Third Day].

Hosea 6:1-2 KJV ~ Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
And said 'Elohiym, Let there be lights in ha-raqiya` of ha-shamayim to divide ha-yom from ha-laylah; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for yamiym, and shaniym: And let them be for lights in ha-raqiya` of ha-shamayim to give light upon ha-'arets: and it was so. And made 'Elohiym two great lights; the greater light to rule ha-yom, and the lesser light to rule ha-laylah: he made also ha-kowkabiym-stars. And 'Elohiym set them in ha-raqiya` of ha-shamayim to give light upon ha-'arets, And to rule over ha-yom and over ha-laylah, and to divide the light from the darkness: and beheld 'Elohiym that it was good. And was `ereb, and was boqer; Yom Rbiy`iy [Forth Day]. And said 'Elohiym, Let ha-mayim bring forth abundantly nephesh-chayah, and fowl that may fly above ha-'arets upon the pney-face of raqiya` ha-shamayim. And created 'Elohiym ha-tanniynim ha-gadoliym, and every nephesh ha-chayah that moveth, which ha-mayim-waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and beheld 'Elohiym that it was good. And blessed them 'Elohiym, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill ha-mayim-waters in the seas-yamiym, and let fowl multiply in ha-'arets. And was `ereb, and was boqer; Yom Chmiyshiy [Fifth Day]. And said 'Elohiym, Let ha-'arets bring forth nephesh chayah after his kind, bhemah, and ha-remes, and chayat of 'erets after his kind: and it was so. And made 'Elohiym chayat-beasts of ha'arets after his kind, and bhemah after their kind, and every remes ha'adamah after his kind: and beheld 'Elohiym that it was good. And said 'Elohiym, Let us `asah-cause-make 'Adam in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion in the fish of hayam-sea, and in the fowl of the air, and in ha-bhemah, and in all ha-'arets, and in every ha-remes that creeps over ha'-arets. And bara'-cut down 'Elohiym ha'adam in his own image, in the image of 'Elohiym bara'-created he him; male and female bara'-created he them. And blessed them 'Elohiym, and said unto them 'Elohiym, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill ha-'arets, and subdue it: and have dominion in the fish of the sea, and in the fowl of the air, and in every chayah-living thing that moveth upon ha-'arets. And said 'Elohiym, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the pney-face of all ha-'arets, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food. And to every beast of ha-'arets, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon ha-'arets, wherein there is nephesh chayah, I have given every green herb for food: and it was so. And beheld 'Elohiym every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And was `ereb, and was boqer; Yom ha-Shishiy [the Sixth Day]. Thus were finished ha-shamayim and ha-'arets, and every tsaba'-host of them. And ended 'Elohiym his work baYom haShbiy`iy which he had made; and he rested baYom haShbiy`iy from all his work which he had made. And blessed 'Elohiym Yom haShbiy`iy, [the Seventh Day] and set-apart-sanctified it: because that in Him Shabbat from all his work which cut down 'Elohiym for to do.
 

dragonfly

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Hi daq,

That's a challenging read. You won't be surprised to hear that I'm (still) chewing on your rearrangement of verses. :)


Luke 13:32 And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox,

Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures

to day

and to morrow,

and the third day I shall be perfected.


33 Nevertheless I must walk

to day,

and to morrow,

and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, daq, and Shabbat shalom, since I don't know how soon I'll be able to finish this post.

daq said:
Retrobyter you are making things up to make yourself look "smarter" than anyone else. You claim to "see" yet you cannot even see your own hypocrisy in that it is you who is constantly throwing around your own opinion as if it has the authority of God behind it, (when most of the time you have no Scripture to back up the things you say). In the same sentence where you tell me to keep my opinions to myself you turn and accuse me of twisting the words of your god. You are the one who says that both myself and dragonfly are twisting the words of God and it is the "HEIGHT of blasphemy!" How can you accuse others of reaching "the HEIGHT of blasphemy" when you have no evidence of your claim? In fact it reveals who your gods really are and those are apparently the Masorites who added the vowel pointings for you because them you accept even though they contradict Joshua the son of Nun who was the next High Priest to follow Moshe; yet you likewise know that they were not disciples of Messiah Yeshua and there are surely things that have been found wanting and even altered when compared with the newly discovered Dead Sea Scrolls and even the Septuagint which all of the New Testament authors quote from. As for having seen a Torah Scroll that has nothing to do with the conversation at hand, (are you foolishly suggesting that the opening chapter of Genesis is not how it is written in the Scrolls or just attempting to create more confusion to make yourself look good?). I only speak in terms of chapters because that is how most everyone here reads the Scripture. You are intentionally causing confusion so as to muddy the waters like your fathers because it is clearly evident that you have no clue concerning what things we speak here, (which are currently the words of Paul concerning the first Adam, the second Adam, and the last Adam, and the first two chapters of Genesis concerning Adam #1 and Adam #2). The first Adam was formed in what we now understand to be the second chapter of Genesis even though there are no "chapters" in the Scrolls. The first Adam was clearly formed BEFORE there was any plant or herb in the 'erets-earth according to Torah. The first Adam which was taken out from the dust of the 'adamah and became a living soul is therefore the second Adam to be mentioned in the text even though he is THE FIRST ADAM. The writing therefore "unfolds" much like the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua. Thus what we now understand to be the second "chapter" of Genesis is written in "retro" fashion where the author returns to previous subject matter and fills in details which were not placed in the opening account, (one would think that with your screen name you might be capable of comprehending this style of writing). Therefore Paul is correct and my understanding of him is correct because the Adam in what we now know as the first "chapter" of Genesis was `asah-caused to become "an Adam" only AFTER all the plants, herbs, and fruit trees came forth from the 'erets-earth, (which plants, herbs, and fruit trees came forth in the third day according to Torah).

This is not your own kindergarten class and we are not all your own little prodigal students whom you are free to reprimand at will or easily deceive; neither do I intend to be waiting around for you, and for the same reason you continue falling further behind because you believe yourself to already "see" when in reality you are a blind false accuser of the brethren attempting to subvert everything that proves your mindset is based in temporal flesh and falsehood. ;)
Oh, so now you attack the person instead of the problem? Ad hominem arguments have no weight or credibility in a debate, nor are they a good defense. Frankly, such attacks are both unbecoming one who names the name of the Messiah and prove only that he has no fitting rebuttal.

1. Making things up to make myself look smarter?
2. My own hypocrisy?
3. Throwing around my opinion as if it has the authority of God behind it?

I could go on with the list, but ... hey ... it's not worth the effort.

I DO accuse you of twisting the words of my God, YHWH Elohiym! And, if he's not YOUR God, too, THEN we really DO have a problem! I will accuse ANYONE of so twisting the Scriptures - HIS Word - when he or she splits the Creation account in two and confuses people together - ignoring simple history and God's Word - to make some point!

The "first Adam" is in Genesis 2 and the "second Adam" is in Genesis 1?! Isn't that confusing their order within the book of Genesis?!
John the Revelator, the Apostle = John the Baptist?!
Joshua the Son of Nun, the successor to Moses = Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest?!
You claim that Yeshua` (rightfully so) is the Moshiya`, a Savior (or Deliverer), but neglect that Yeshua` was also the ANOINTED of God, the Mashiach, the Christos?!

I'm not "intentionally causing confusion so as to muddy the waters," as you claim; I've flipped on the pool filter! If you get sucked into the skimmer, that's not because I want you to be sucked in! I'm just trying to clear out some of the trash!

JUST LOOK at this "paragraph" objectively and tell me it makes any sense at all!

You are intentionally causing confusion so as to muddy the waters like your fathers because it is clearly evident that you have no clue concerning what things we speak here, (which are currently the words of Paul concerning the first Adam, the second Adam, and the last Adam, and the first two chapters of Genesis concerning Adam #1 and Adam #2). The first Adam was formed in what we now understand to be the second chapter of Genesis even though there are no "chapters" in the Scrolls. The first Adam was clearly formed BEFORE there was any plant or herb in the 'erets-earth according to Torah. The first Adam which was taken out from the dust of the 'adamah and became a living soul is therefore the second Adam to be mentioned in the text even though he is THE FIRST ADAM. The writing therefore "unfolds" much like the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua. Thus what we now understand to be the second "chapter" of Genesis is written in "retro" fashion where the author returns to previous subject matter and fills in details which were not placed in the opening account, (one would think that with your screen name you might be capable of comprehending this style of writing). Therefore Paul is correct and my understanding of him is correct because the Adam in what we now know as the first "chapter" of Genesis was `asah-caused to become "an Adam" only AFTER all the plants, herbs, and fruit trees came forth from the 'erets-earth, (which plants, herbs, and fruit trees came forth in the third day according to Torah).
First Adam, second Adam, last Adam, Adam #1, Adam #2, you can't even keep them straight yourself!
"The first Adam was taken out from the dust of the 'adamah and became a living soul is therefore the second Adam to be mentioned in the text even though he is THE FIRST ADAM"?

I know that you don't like me calling you meshuggah, but if you don't want to be called meshuggah, quit acting like you're meshuggah! Because THAT is meshuggah!

Shalom, Enoch, and have a good Shabbat.

ENOCH2010 said:
daq are you now saying that the first Adam is the Lord Jesus and the second Adam was Adam the first person?
Patience, patience. He'll need a day or two to sort all this out.
 

daq

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, daq, and Shabbat shalom, since I don't know how soon I'll be able to finish this post.

First Adam, second Adam, last Adam, Adam #1, Adam #2, you can't even keep them straight yourself!
"The first Adam was taken out from the dust of the 'adamah and became a living soul is therefore the second Adam to be mentioned in the text even though he is THE FIRST ADAM"?

I know that you don't like me calling you meshuggah, but if you don't want to be called meshuggah, quit acting like you're meshuggah! Because THAT is meshuggah!

Shalom, Enoch, and have a good Shabbat.
And, lo, I perceived that Elohim had not sent him; but that he pronounced this prophecy against me: for Tobiah and Sanballat had hired him. Therefore was he hired, that I should be afraid, and do so, and sin, and that they might have matter for an evil report, that they might reproach me. My Elohim, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear. So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days. Show mercy, O Father, and let not this man be a sign unto this entire nation but unto himself in this the Eve of Destruction. Show mercy, O Father, upon this man also which has unknowingly completed his own wall of Anak in the self same day, 24-25 Elul, repeating words of infamy in calling the brethren Meshuggah and Raca, like the hook of Anak in the jaws of the fatlings of Bashan even as you and your holy Son Yeshua have warned us in your holy Word. For thus saith YHWH of armies; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith YHWH of armies. The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith YHWH of armies. The glory of the latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith YHWH of armies: and in that place will I give peace, saith YHWH of armies! Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Yehudah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith YHWH, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith YHWH, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith YHWH of armies. And stirred up YHWH the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Yehudah, and the spirit of Yehoshua the son of Yehotsadaq, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work in the house of YHWH of armies, their 'Elohim, in the four and twentieth day of the sixth month, Elul.
 

Retrobyter

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Shabbat shalom, daq.

daq said:
And, lo, I perceived that Elohim had not sent him; but that he pronounced this prophecy against me: for Tobiah and Sanballat had hired him. Therefore was he hired, that I should be afraid, and do so, and sin, and that they might have matter for an evil report, that they might reproach me. My Elohim, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear. So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days. Show mercy, O Father, and let not this man be a sign unto this entire nation but unto himself in this the Eve of Destruction. Show mercy, O Father, upon this man also which has unknowingly completed his own wall of Anak in the self same day, 24-25 Elul, repeating words of infamy in calling the brethren Meshuggah and Raca, like the hook of Anak in the jaws of the fatlings of Bashan even as you and your holy Son Yeshua have warned us in your holy Word. For thus saith YHWH of armies; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith YHWH of armies. The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith YHWH of armies. The glory of the latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith YHWH of armies: and in that place will I give peace, saith YHWH of armies! Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Yehudah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith YHWH, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith YHWH, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith YHWH of armies. And stirred up YHWH the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Yehudah, and the spirit of Yehoshua the son of Yehotsadaq, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work in the house of YHWH of armies, their 'Elohim, in the four and twentieth day of the sixth month, Elul.
It takes longer and longer to figure you out, but the wisdom from Elohiym will not fail me.

Stringing it all together WITHOUT REFERENCES does a DISSERVICE both to you and your readers. First, your first four sentences quoted Nehemiah 6:12-15, probably from the TUA that you often quote. Then, the next two sentences are your own, presumably in a prayer you are making, supposedly on my behalf. Then, the next three sentences quoted Haggai 2:6-9. Then, the next two sentences quoted Haggai 2:21-23, and your final sentence quoted Haggai 1:14-15a, thusly:


"And, lo, I perceived that Elohim had not sent him; but that he pronounced this prophecy against me: for Tobiah and Sanballat had hired him. Therefore was he hired, that I should be afraid, and do so, and sin, and that they might have matter for an evil report, that they might reproach me. My Elohim, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear. So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days. (Neh. 6:12-15) Show mercy, O Father, and let not this man be a sign unto this entire nation but unto himself in this the Eve of Destruction. Show mercy, O Father, upon this man also which has unknowingly completed his own wall of Anakhttp://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18108-yeshua-says/?p=203517 in the self same day, 24-25 Elul, repeating words of infamy in calling the brethren Meshuggah and Raca, like the hook of Anak in the jaws of the fatlings of Bashan even as you and your holy Son Yeshua have warned us in your holy Word. For thus saith YHWH of armies; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith YHWH of armies. The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith YHWH of armies. The glory of the latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith YHWH of armies: and in that place will I give peace, saith YHWH of armies! (Hag. 2:6-9) Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Yehudah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith YHWH, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith YHWH, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith YHWH of armies. (Hag. 2:21-23) And stirred up YHWH the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Yehudah, and the spirit of Yehoshua the son of Yehotsadaq, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work in the house of YHWH of armies, their 'Elohim, in the four and twentieth day of the sixth month, Elul. (Hag. 1:14-15a)"

I also perceive that you have linked these verses together based on the date, since my post was on 24-25 Elul, 5773, on the Jewish calendar. (Why, I am not certain.)

So, let's just look at the part in blue above: First, assuming that you are talking about me as "this man," since you quoted me, thank you for your prayer to God for His mercy on me. I truly do appreciate the kind thought.

While we ARE on this "Eve of Destruction," that is certainly a relative thing. We don't know when God's Judgment will fall; it could begin tomorrow, it may yet be in a couple of hundred years (judging from the year in the Jewish calendar). It doesn't truly matter; we need to trust God and His timing regardless.

Your reference to Amos 7:7-8 is ridiculous. While SOME THINK that "anaakh" means "hook," the majority recognize the word as a "plummet (plumb bob)" or a "plumb line!' Even in Webster's NewWorld Hebrew Dictionary (Wiley Publishing, Inc, Cleveland, OH, 1992), that is how the word is defined! You then linked this through the English understanding of a "hook" to the prophecy against the King of Egypt in Ezekiel 29 for the phrase "hook of Anak in the jaws."

Amos 7:1-9

7 Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me; and, behold, he formed grasshoppers in the beginning of the shooting up of the latter growth; and, lo, it was the latter growth after the king's mowings.
2 And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, O Lord God , forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.
3 The Lord repented for this: It shall not be, saith the Lord .
4 Thus hath the Lord God shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord God called to contend by fire, and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part.
5 Then said I, O Lord God , cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small.
6 The Lord repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord God .
7 Thus he shewed me: and, behold, the Lord stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand.
8 And the Lord said unto me, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A plumbline. Then said the Lord, Behold, I will set a plumbline in the midst of my people Israel: I will not again pass by them any more:
9 And the high places of Isaac shall be desolate, and the sanctuaries of Israel shall be laid waste; and I will rise against the house of Jeroboam with the sword.
KJV



Ezekiel 29:1-6
29 In the tenth year, in the tenth month, in the twelfth day of the month, the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Pharaoh king of Egypt, and prophesy against him, and against all Egypt:
3 Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God ; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.
4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales.
5 And I will leave thee thrown into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven.
6 And all the inhabitants of Egypt shall know that I am the Lord , because they have been a staff of reed to the house of Israel.
KJV

And, through either of the following passages (or both), you arrived at the phrase "fatlings of Bashan":


Ezekiel 39:17-19
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord God ; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
KJV

Amos 4:1-2
4 Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink.
2 The Lord God hath sworn by his holiness, that, lo, the days shall come upon you, that he will take you away with hooks, and your posterity with fishhooks.
KJV

Please understand this last point the most: I have NEVER said to you "raka," or rather "reeyq," meaning "empty" or "hollow" or "worthless." Nor have I called you a "mooros" or a "stupid person!" What I said was that some of the things you SAY (or WRITE) are "CRAZY!" "MESHUGGAH!" I think you are quite intelligent and certainly not worthless! To bring all the above together into a single paragraph demonstrates your intelligence and your great memory.

And, you are certainly worth VERY much to the Master, and I count you as my brother! I don't want to attack you as a brother! I am merely trying to get to the way you put unrelated Scripture passages together in a haphazard way! THAT'S what I count as "meshuggah," not you as a person! May Adonai YHWH Eloheinu bless you greatly this Shabbat!
 

daq

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Retrobyter said:
Shabbat shalom, daq.

It takes longer and longer to figure you out, but the wisdom from Elohiym will not fail me.

Stringing it all together WITHOUT REFERENCES does a DISSERVICE both to you and your readers. First, your first four sentences quoted Nehemiah 6:12-15, probably from the TUA that you often quote. Then, the next two sentences are your own, presumably in a prayer you are making, supposedly on my behalf. Then, the next three sentences quoted Haggai 2:6-9. Then, the next two sentences quoted Haggai 2:21-23, and your final sentence quoted Haggai 1:14-15a, thusly:

"And, lo, I perceived that Elohim had not sent him; but that he pronounced this prophecy against me: for Tobiah and Sanballat had hired him. Therefore was he hired, that I should be afraid, and do so, and sin, and that they might have matter for an evil report, that they might reproach me. My Elohim, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear. So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days. (Neh. 6:12-15) Show mercy, O Father, and let not this man be a sign unto this entire nation but unto himself in this the Eve of Destruction. Show mercy, O Father, upon this man also which has unknowingly completed his own wall of Anakhttp://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18108-yeshua-says/?p=203517 in the self same day, 24-25 Elul, repeating words of infamy in calling the brethren Meshuggah and Raca, like the hook of Anak in the jaws of the fatlings of Bashan even as you and your holy Son Yeshua have warned us in your holy Word. For thus saith YHWH of armies; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith YHWH of armies. The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith YHWH of armies. The glory of the latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith YHWH of armies: and in that place will I give peace, saith YHWH of armies! (Hag. 2:6-9) Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Yehudah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith YHWH, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith YHWH, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith YHWH of armies. (Hag. 2:21-23) And stirred up YHWH the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Yehudah, and the spirit of Yehoshua the son of Yehotsadaq, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work in the house of YHWH of armies, their 'Elohim, in the four and twentieth day of the sixth month, Elul. (Hag. 1:14-15a)"

I also perceive that you have linked these verses together based on the date, since my post was on 24-25 Elul, 5773, on the Jewish calendar. (Why, I am not certain.)

So, let's just look at the part in blue above: First, assuming that you are talking about me as "this man," since you quoted me, thank you for your prayer to God for His mercy on me. I truly do appreciate the kind thought.

While we ARE on this "Eve of Destruction," that is certainly a relative thing. We don't know when God's Judgment will fall; it could begin tomorrow, it may yet be in a couple of hundred years (judging from the year in the Jewish calendar). It doesn't truly matter; we need to trust God and His timing regardless.

Your reference to Amos 7:7-8 is ridiculous. While SOME THINK that "anaakh" means "hook," the majority recognize the word as a "plummet (plumb bob)" or a "plumb line!' Even in Webster's NewWorld Hebrew Dictionary (Wiley Publishing, Inc, Cleveland, OH, 1992), that is how the word is defined! You then linked this through the English understanding of a "hook" to the prophecy against the King of Egypt in Ezekiel 29 for the phrase "hook of Anak in the jaws."

Please understand this last point the most: I have NEVER said to you "raka," or rather "reeyq," meaning "empty" or "hollow" or "worthless." Nor have I called you a "mooros" or a "stupid person!" What I said was that some of the things you SAY (or WRITE) are "CRAZY!" "MESHUGGAH!" I think you are quite intelligent and certainly not worthless! To bring all the above together into a single paragraph demonstrates your intelligence and your great memory.

And, you are certainly worth VERY much to the Master, and I count you as my brother! I don't want to attack you as a brother! I am merely trying to get to the way you put unrelated Scripture passages together in a haphazard way! THAT'S what I count as "meshuggah," not you as a person! May Adonai YHWH Eloheinu bless you greatly this Shabbat!

daq said:
And, lo, I perceived that Elohim had not sent him; but that he pronounced this prophecy against me: for Tobiah and Sanballat had hired him. Therefore was he hired, that I should be afraid, and do so, and sin, and that they might have matter for an evil report, that they might reproach me. My Elohim, think thou upon Tobiah and Sanballat according to these their works, and the rest of the prophets, that would have put me in fear. So the wall was finished in the twenty and fifth day of the month Elul, in fifty and two days. Show mercy, O Father, and let not this man be a sign unto this entire nation but unto himself in this the Eve of Destruction. Show mercy, O Father, upon this man also which has unknowingly completed his own wall of Anak in the self same day, 24-25 Elul, repeating words of infamy in calling the brethren Meshuggah and Raca, like the hook of Anak in the jaws of the fatlings of Bashan even as you and your holy Son Yeshua have warned us in your holy Word. For thus saith YHWH of armies; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith YHWH of armies. The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith YHWH of armies. The glory of the latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith YHWH of armies: and in that place will I give peace, saith YHWH of armies! Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Yehudah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. In that day, saith YHWH, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith YHWH, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith YHWH of armies. And stirred up YHWH the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Yehudah, and the spirit of Yehoshua the son of Yehotsadaq, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work in the house of YHWH of armies, their 'Elohim, in the four and twentieth day of the sixth month, Elul.
Obama backs down, blinks on Syria attack
Washington : DC : USA | Aug 31, 2013 at 12:17 PM PDT
"President Barack Obama's "red line" in Syria just turned gray. In a stunning reversal, Obama announced Saturday that he will, after all, seek congressional approval before attacking the Syrian government for its alleged use of chemical weapons against the Syrian people. It was just yesterday that both Secretary of State John Kerry and President Obama in back-to-back pronouncements laid out what they described as irrefutable evidence of Syrian President Bashar Assad's approval of the use of these weapons. Kerry and Obama claimed that these weapons of mass destruction have resulted in the deaths of at least 1,400 people, including over 400 children. Immediately following the president's and the secretary's speeches, speculation throughout the mediasphere changed from not if but when this nation-state would attack Syria."


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Thank you Father in heaven for hearing the petitions of your lowly servants and for revealing the mighty power and strength of your arm; to the intent that we may know that in all the kingdoms and dominions of the man you alone do rule. They drank wine, and praised the 'elahhey of gold, and of silver, of brass, of iron, of wood, and of stone, and of war, and of death, and tanks, and aircraft, and their vessels, and their ships, and their missiles, and their bombs. In the same hour came the forth fingers of the hand of an 'Adam, and wrote over against the lampstand, upon the plaster of the wall, inside the palace dwelling of the king: and the king perceived the portion of the hand that wrote in the wall of his house. Then was the countenance of the king changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the hinges of his gates were loosed, and his knees smote one against another. And the Most High changed the course of the history of the world in an hour, even in a single moment in time; to the intent that the living may know that the Most High rules in all the dominions of the man, and gives it to whomsoever he will, and sets up over it the lowliest of men. And even though these things may still come to pass in their times; we as your servants know that when they do it will not be according to the will of man; but according to thy own time, and thy own will, O Living Father.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:
Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.


How should 'no continuing city' be interpreted in light of Hebrews 11:10, 13 - 16 and Hebrews 12:22 - 24?


Does it make any difference that we don't know for sure, who wrote Hebrews?
Getting back to the original post, we should simply understand that "no continuing (Greek: menousan) city" means "no permanent city," and the key idea is in the contrast between the words "HERE" and "WE SEEK ONE TO COME!" The word translated "we seek" is from the Greek word "epizeetoumen" meaning "we CRAVE" the one to come! Thus, the verse implies TIME as well as POSITION. This "permanent city" is what Avraham was seeking but will not be experienced fully until the New Jerusalem AFTER the Fire and the New Earth with its New Atmosphere has been created/renovated.

Even the city of Jerusalem during the Millennium (the 1000 years when haSatan is chained) is not a "continuing city." We await the one that is being built by our Master Yeshua`.

Oh. So, by the way, no, it doesn't make any difference who wrote Hebrews.