God Knew Adam and Eve Would Fall

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Sargento

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Dan...

Your so confuse that you don't see your own confusion.

So you think GOD knows the future but are constantly being surprised by it?
Impressive... That is not GOD, that is fortune-teller flawed and prone to making mistakes all the time ...

You preach a failed GOD since the beginning...
HE created all good, but the devil ruined all...
HE let mankind grow but the evil made him kill everyone with Noah...
He sent Moses and killed all in the desert and by the law all became cursed...
He sent prophets and they were killed...
He sent Jesus, but HIS people killed him...
This is a god that fails since the beginning and it's constantly rejected by it's own creation... this is not a god, this is a frustrated man that can't get his children to love him and choose him... this god you preach lost all the battles to the devil and just by looking to this present time it's obvious who's winning again...

...is that the god you trust? Trusting in that god is a sin... however I know you don't because you know HE can fail right? ... you rely on your own fidelity and think that GOD does it too...
Who grants me that Satan won't win in the end? Maybe he'll surprise GOD again!!!

Your lack of understanding is impressive... you have no idea of who GOD is.

But in all this and the "if's" Jeremiah came to understand:

O LORD, I know that the way of man {is} not in himself: {it is} not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Jeremiah 10:23

You did not...



Open your eyes Dan, in Jeremiah what didn't come to GOD's mind was to ask that from them... HE never asked that from them ... how do you have the courage to say GOD did not know this would happen? How can you limit GOD so much?


The GOD presented in Genesis was a parable just like the GOD in the law... or do you think that when HE asked Adam if he had the forbidden fruit HE did not already knew he did?
The regret in Genesis and other places is a parable just like a bush of fire, a rock that delivers water, a column of fire, etc... The GOD presented before Christ is a GOD that judges by works, is a GOD that loves and hates according to the fulfillment of the law... and it came to show that without grace all man is condemned.

But I have no hope that you understand this... you limit GOD in an impressive way.

So GOD did not now that Abraham feared him before also??? The GOD that knows the hearts did not know Abraham's heart?


About Saul... no, God did not fail with Saul or HIS people...

I will be thy king: where {is any other} that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes (when they asked for a king)? {I will...: rather, Where is thy king?}
I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took {him} away in my wrath.
Oséias 13:10-11

Saul was meant to do what he did...

ALL IN THE BIBLE SAYS GOD KNOWS ALL... but that man has free will there's none.


For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then {it is} not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:15-16




And your rejection to GOD's sovereignty is not a good sign and will not be forgiven when HE comes.


But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay {them} before me.
Luke 19:27

I've showed you more than enough for you to recognize your error and for you to turn to GOD instead of yourself....
Repent Dan.
 

Dan57

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Sargento said:
Dan...

Your so confuse that you don't see your own confusion. You misconstrued much of what I wrote

So you think GOD knows the future but are constantly being surprised by it? I never said God was surprised


You preach a failed GOD since the beginning... I never said that God failed at anything
HE created all good, but the devil ruined all... I never said that either
HE let mankind grow but the evil made him kill everyone with Noah... I never mentioned Noah
He sent Moses and killed all in the desert and by the law all became cursed...I never mentioned Moses
He sent prophets and they were killed...
He sent Jesus, but HIS people killed him... I never wrote that
This is a god that fails since the beginning and it's constantly rejected by it's own creation... this is not a god, this is a frustrated man that can't get his children to love him and choose him... this god you preach lost all the battles to the devil and just by looking to this present time it's obvious who's winning again... Your conclusion, not mine.

Your lack of understanding is impressive... Thank you you have no idea of who GOD is. I'm learning

The GOD presented in Genesis was a parable just like the GOD in the law... I completely disagree

But I have no hope that you understand this... you limit GOD in an impressive way.
You have an aura of arrogance about you. My disagreement with your spin on things does not mean that I limit God.

So GOD did not now that Abraham feared him before also??? The GOD that knows the hearts did not know Abraham's heart?
When God tested Abraham's faith, why did He say; "Now I know"? Doesn't that clearly suggest that He did not previously know? Why did God test him in the first place? To confirm what He already knew? If God knows the eternal fate of every soul, what is this time in the flesh all about? If every soul is predetermined to heaven or hell, then all that we experience now is an exercise in futility. Why would Christ call sinners to repentance if free choice were nonexistent?

And your rejection to GOD's sovereignty is not a good sign and will not be forgiven when HE comes.
Where exactly did I ever question God's sovereignty? Its unbelievable for you to suggest that God won't forgive me. In doing so, you put yourself in the judgement seat of Christ, while simultaneously claiming that I rely too much on my own judgement?

I've showed you more than enough for you to recognize your error and for you to turn to GOD instead of yourself....
Repent Dan.

You suggest that I limit God, but it sounds like your placing limitations on God by suggesting that He cannot possibly interfere or alter the future? My point was simply that whomsoever believes, does so of their own free choice.
 
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aspen

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Dan we ma not agree on everything, but I think you are absolutely right about your last post.
 

michaelvpardo

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Dan57 said:
God's omniscience/omnipotence doesn't mean that His plan accounts for all contingencies. As long as God is involved with His creation, the future is not set in stone. Does God know the future? Yes. Can God bring about trial and errors that may alter a persons choices? Yes. As long as free will exist, hearts can be swayed. Free-will is an act of love, and love is not something God created within us, love emanates and grows from within every individual and is demonstrated by our choices. Whether we believe or not is our free choice.
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 1 John 4:7
Men were created with an innate capacity for emotional attachment and for "romantic love" which is little more than chemical attraction, but the Love of God, described in the word "agape" is not simple emotional attachment and doesn't exist in the human heart until one is born of God (born again by the Spirit of God through faith in His Son). Warm fuzzies are nice, but godly love is a gift from Him received through His Son. Amen.
 

Robertson

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aspen2 said:
Perfect Mormon doctrine, Robertson and terrible understanding of orthodox Christianity.
I'm not a Mormon, but thanks for the compliment because they are good people. I didn't mention what Mormons said, I mentioned what Paul says so I am unsure of your statement about Mormons. Anyway, You claim an orthodox Christianity belief, but you really don't accept it. What you really accept is an altered form of Christianity that differs from the Bible. Paul said that Adam was not deceived, so logically he knew what he was doing. But I cant take anything you say to heart because you seem confused. Even in your signature at the bottom of everything you say, it says, "The new reality Jesus proclaimed was nonviolent." Clearly Jesus said he came with a sword. Matthew 10:34 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." When you get the basics wrong, how can we respect your answers about the heavier matters of the kingdom?

Your rejection of deism, or that man can become like God, is where you derail. Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"
Romans 8:17 "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

We can be perfect, like Jesus and His Father are, and we can be joint heirs with Christ. Joint heirs of what? All the attributes that a saved being is. Mankind can be perfected and be like Jesus and His Father. If you keep the commandments, try your best to perfect your attributes, then you can be a saved being, go where saved beings go, reside with saved beings, and be glorified as all saved beings are. If you don't, then a lesser glory is yours.
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
I wouldn't disagree with anything that you've said here, except that it really only applies to those who receive Jesus Christ by faith. Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to redeem all mankind, even all creation, from the curse and consequence of Adam's sin, as well as that of our own sin, but He hasn't promised a "blanket" redemption to all mankind, rather the promise of salvation is to those who put their trust in Him. The promises of God in Christ Jesus are given in the form of a covenant, and more specifically in the form of a marriage covenant. God, for His part, sacrificed His Son for the propitiation of our sin, but what is our part in the covenant? What is our sacrifice? What can men offer to God that He doesn't already own? I want to answer "obedience," but I already know that my attempts at obedience will always be imperfect and flawed by that fleshly nature which remains with me. So what do I have to offer God? Another obvious answer is "love." He's commanded us to love Him and to love one another, no arguement there. But again, while God's love for me and for you is perfect, my love for Him and for you will never be perfect on this side of eternity, though I were to strive for it with my last breath. So what sacrifice can I make to God as my part in His covenant promise? I think that the only thing we flawed and imperfect creatures can offer God is "submission." Submission doesn't require perfection on our part, but rather a constant willingness to say "no" to ourselves, our own selfish desires, and to say "yes" to God. This may seem quite "slavish," but that is exactly the New Testament language used to describe our relationship to God as Christians. We are not only to submit to God, but He even calls us to mutual submission, to the extent that it serves His purposes in the body of Christ. Nothing goes more in opposition to our carnal nature, yet He gives His Spirit to those who make this covenant relationship with Him, and with Him, His resurrection power to new life. Submitting to His Spirit, is submitting to Him, and those led by the Spirit of God are more than slaves, more than conquerors, but sons of adoption, sons of the living God. The difference between us and Adam is that we now have the knowledge of "good and evil." We can recognize our sin for what it is, and we can recognize God for who He is. We can now choose good, because we know what it is, and reject evil even though we find it in ouselves. Choosing the good is choosing God, and in this we can "prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Amen.
So what does all that have to do with what is revealed in my previous post? You've gone off topic of my post while quoting it, although not everything you've said I certainly would not disagree with.

In case you didn't get it, the Scripture reveals that Christ was already foreordained to die on the cross PRIOR to Adam and Eve's sin. In case you've yet to figure that out it means there was a PREVIOUS event that caused Christ to be foreordained before the foundation of this world. That previous event was Satan rebellion, the ACTUAL first sin against God ever.

The idea that sin begin in Eden with Adam and Eve is a tradition of men. Like Apostle John said, the devil sinneth from the beginning, and that means PRIOR to the time of Adam and Eve. This is why John then said, For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
 

michaelvpardo

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veteran said:
So what does all that have to do with what is revealed in my previous post? You've gone off topic of my post while quoting it, although not everything you've said I certainly would not disagree with.

In case you didn't get it, the Scripture reveals that Christ was already foreordained to die on the cross PRIOR to Adam and Eve's sin. In case you've yet to figure that out it means there was a PREVIOUS event that caused Christ to be foreordained before the foundation of this world. That previous event was Satan rebellion, the ACTUAL first sin against God ever.

The idea that sin begin in Eden with Adam and Eve is a tradition of men. Like Apostle John said, the devil sinneth from the beginning, and that means PRIOR to the time of Adam and Eve. This is why John then said, For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
Veteran, do you know what the word "omniscient" means. Omniscience is a quality of God: He knows all things. The scripture also tells us that He knows all things before they happen; He knows the end of a matter from the beginning of it.
Satan didn't fall before the fall of man. The scripture tells us in Genesis that Satan was cursed for what he did in the garden, in deceiving Eve. Nothing in scripture says a word about Satan sinning before that event; that is what you call a man made doctrine. Adam's sin (and Satan's sin for that matter) didn't come as a surprise to God. The very notion is absurd and reveals an unreasoning mind.
You quote John's statement that the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil, and this is true, but that doesn't mean that God went with plan B. God knew that the Devil would tempt Eve. God knew that Eve would succumb to the temptation. God knew that Adam would choose to be disobedient to His commandment. God knew that He would subject all creation to futility. God chose to make Himself manifest in the person of His Son, in order to redeem humanity, knowing that men would make wrong choices, with the first of these being engineered by the Devil, the ruler of this world, the prince of the power of the air, and the one who through the fear of death has kept men captive since the first man died.
You claim to be a Christian, yet you spend most of your time preaching about Satan and the anti-Christ. Are you his prophet? Satan is a defeated foe; he lost the war at the cross of Jesus Christ. All power and authority was given to Jesus in His resurrection, that includes power and authority over the devil. The devil's only real power in the world now is deception, but the only ones that he can deceive (permanently) are those who don't have the Spirit of Christ within them. The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the living God, and God can't be deceived. I've been fooled by false professions of faith, and even by some false doctrines, but the Spirit of God, using His word, is able to reveal the truth of every matter and does so, because this was the promise of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God.
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
Veteran, do you know what the word "omniscient" means. Omniscience is a quality of God: He knows all things. The scripture also tells us that He knows all things before they happen; He knows the end of a matter from the beginning of it.
Yes, I'm well aware of how our Heavenly Father is Omniscient.
Michael V Pardo said:
Satan didn't fall before the fall of man. The scripture tells us in Genesis that Satan was cursed for what he did in the garden, in deceiving Eve. Nothing in scripture says a word about Satan sinning before that event; that is what you call a man made doctrine. Adam's sin (and Satan's sin for that matter) didn't come as a surprise to God. The very notion is absurd and reveals an unreasoning mind.
That's where you are completely and totally wrong!!!

What you're relying on is man's tradition of the fall of Adam while excluding what God showed His servants about Satan's rebellion of old PRIOR to Adam. This means you totally refuse what God showed about Satan in the parable of Ezekiel 28 with Satan as that "anointed cherub that covereth" that was in God's Eden and originally "perfect in his ways" til iniquity was found in him...

Ezek 28:12-15
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)


What makes that a parable or proverb about Satan is that we know absolutely, that the king of Tyrus, a flesh man, was NEVER in God's Garden of Eden, and NO flesh man is EVER an "anointed cherub that covereth", which refers to the heavenly beings that guard God's Throne in the Heavenly.

Because you deny those Scriptures from the outset, I really have no desire to converse with you. When, or if, you begin to give those Scriptures their proper respect due towards our Heavenly Father, then I might be willing to discuss this further with you. Til then, go to your deceived doctrines of men.
 

jiggyfly

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aspen2 said:
Forgiveness is a blessing for sure, but it is not worth rupturing our relationship with God in the Garden.

Marriage can survive infidelity and become even stronger afterwards, but it is never worth it.
I believe we are flawed by design in order for God to show His wonderful attributes.
 

aspen

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jiggyfly said:
I believe we are flawed by design in order for God to show His wonderful attributes.
Then you view of God's is in opposition to His own view of Himself.
 

Selene

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aspen2 said:
Then you view of God's is in opposition to His own view of Himself.
I agree. The Holy Bible says that God made everything good. As for man, He made man in His image and likeness. If man was created flawed, then what does that say about God Himself who gave man His image and likeness?
 

7angels

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why do people ask these types of questions? is it for understanding or just one more thing to debate about?

we all know that God is all knowing. thus we can conclude that knows the decisions of every possible action that we could take for a given situation. so does this mean that just because God knows we may make the wrong decision that it is God's fault? because God also knows we are able to make good decisions also but who get the credit for us choosing right decisions? God? so what you are all saying is that God rewards us for decisions that God himself made us decide? God gave us the ability to decide and the bible tells us we are responsible for our own actions. so God knowing man would sin was one possibility of many that could of happened.

God bless
 

michaelvpardo

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veteran said:
Yes, I'm well aware of how our Heavenly Father is Omniscient.


That's where you are completely and totally wrong!!!

What you're relying on is man's tradition of the fall of Adam while excluding what God showed His servants about Satan's rebellion of old PRIOR to Adam. This means you totally refuse what God showed about Satan in the parable of Ezekiel 28 with Satan as that "anointed cherub that covereth" that was in God's Eden and originally "perfect in his ways" til iniquity was found in him...

Ezek 28:12-15
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)


What makes that a parable or proverb about Satan is that we know absolutely, that the king of Tyrus, a flesh man, was NEVER in God's Garden of Eden, and NO flesh man is EVER an "anointed cherub that covereth", which refers to the heavenly beings that guard God's Throne in the Heavenly.

Because you deny those Scriptures



Veteran,
Thank you for proving my point. I'm standing on scripture. Satan is on display in the passages that you quote as the anointed Cherub in the garden of Eden. Here's a news flash for you. There was no garden of Eden until God created it. Satan came under the curse in chapter 3 of the Book of Genesis. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says Satan fell at some earlier time. That is a man made doctrine.
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.” Genesis 3:14-15
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
Veteran,
Thank you for proving my point. I'm standing on scripture. Satan is on display in the passages that you quote as the anointed Cherub in the garden of Eden. Here's a news flash for you. There was no garden of Eden until God created it. Satan came under the curse in chapter 3 of the Book of Genesis. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says Satan fell at some earlier time. That is a man made doctrine.
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.” Genesis 3:14-15
You don't have a clue how wrong you are.

Because you're too busy denying the Scripture like what God showed in Ezekiel 28 about Satan in His Eden, you've totally missed the specific 'timing' there of WHEN that was...


Parable about Satan with God using the king of Tyrus as a symbolic title:

This verse was is about how God made him a beautiful cherub with the full sum of wisdom and beauty. Definitely prior to his rebellion.
Ezek 28:12-15
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.



This verse timing is when Satan followed God. It is NOT after he had rebelled. So you're very wrong about your creation idea of Eden. Eden, which is rendered Greek for Paradise in the Greek Septuagint OT is about God's Abode.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.


This verse is also prior to his rebellion against God:
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

This first phrase was before he rebelled, the last phrase when he rebelled.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)



I'm surprised that you haven't figured out why God's Garden of Eden is no more upon this earth for this present world, and not wondered where it's at today. We know God's Eden was once upon this earth at beginning of this world, because Gen.2 reveals it in connection with God's River flowing out of His Garden to water four specific rivers upon the earth, two of which still exist on earth today.

Anyway, it's simple common sense to know that Satan as "that old serpent" in Eden tempting Adam and Eve shows Satan was ALREADY in the role as tempter, and DEFINITELY not "perfect in his ways" in that time nor following God! This is so simple.
 

michaelvpardo

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Michael V Pardo said:
Yes, I'm well aware of how our Heavenly Father is Omniscient.


That's where you are completely and totally wrong!!!

What you're relying on is man's tradition of the fall of Adam while excluding what God showed His servants about Satan's rebellion of old PRIOR to Adam. This means you totally refuse what God showed about Satan in the parable of Ezekiel 28 with Satan as that "anointed cherub that covereth" that was in God's Eden and originally "perfect in his ways" til iniquity was found in him...

Ezek 28:12-15
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(KJV)


What makes that a parable or proverb about Satan is that we know absolutely, that the king of Tyrus, a flesh man, was NEVER in God's Garden of Eden, and NO flesh man is EVER an "anointed cherub that covereth", which refers to the heavenly beings that guard God's Throne in the Heavenly.

Because you deny those Scriptures



Veteran,
Thank you for proving my point. I'm standing on scripture. Satan is on display in the passages that you quote as the anointed Cherub in the garden of Eden. Here's a news flash for you. There was no garden of Eden until God created it. Satan came under the curse in chapter 3 of the Book of Genesis. There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says Satan fell at some earlier time. That is a man made doctrine.
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this, You are cursed more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you shall go, And you shall eat dust All the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.” Genesis 3:14-15
I don't deny any of the scripture, including those verses you quote, which I have used to talk about the fall of Satan. However, there is nothing in scripture that places any of that before the creation of the earth, of which Eden was a part. You're stuck in your vain imagination, which is probably why you don't trust the Lord or what His word says.
Michael V Pardo said:
I don't deny any of the scripture, including those verses you quote, which I have used to talk about the fall of Satan. However, there is nothing in scripture that places any of that before the creation of the earth, of which Eden was a part. You're stuck in your vain imagination, which is probably why you don't trust the Lord or what His word says.
Veteran,
I want to apologize for my last comments, because I have no idea what you trust in if anything at all. I'm also quite sure that you have no idea of what I believe beyond what I've written or said, because you're not God. You're quick to judge anyone who disagrees with you about anything and I've already been warned about making disparaging comments or innuendos, even if they might be for your own welfare. Apparently the moderators on this site are extremely biased as to what they approve of or disapprove of and I honestly don't need to be here any longer than I've been. I don't want to leave any work unfinished, but there isn't much left to be said. With this I'll bid the topic "Adieu."
"Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves."
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
I don't deny any of the scripture, including those verses you quote, which I have used to talk about the fall of Satan. However, there is nothing in scripture that places any of that before the creation of the earth, of which Eden was a part. You're stuck in your vain imagination, which is probably why you don't trust the Lord or what His word says.
I trust in my Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ and His Word of Truth very much, thank you. Your snide remark is meaningless because you simply don't understand a lot of what you read, but instead throw men's traditions into it.

The beast kingdom of old given in Rev.12:3-4 when Satan rebelled, the parable about Satan in Ezek.28 and Ezek.31, all reveal the earth had already... been created, and it reveals another thing. It reveals "the world that then was" which Peter spoke of in 2 Pet.3 which is about the old world, the world prior to Adam and Eve. That's the particular point you cannot come to which is a requirement to even understand about that old beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 when Satan drew one third of the stars into rebellion with him. Apostle Peter said in 2 Pet.3 that many are "willingly ignorant" about the different world ages and you're in that category.

Michael V Pardo said:
Veteran,
I want to apologize for my last comments, because I have no idea what you trust in if anything at all. I'm also quite sure that you have no idea of what I believe beyond what I've written or said, because you're not God. You're quick to judge anyone who disagrees with you about anything and I've already been warned about making disparaging comments or innuendos, even if they might be for your own welfare. Apparently the moderators on this site are extremely biased as to what they approve of or disapprove of and I honestly don't need to be here any longer than I've been. I don't want to leave any work unfinished, but there isn't much left to be said. With this I'll bid the topic "Adieu."
"Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves."
What we think doesn't matter, what matters is whether it is God's Word or not. All of the learning of men and traditions of men amount to nothing compared to God's Truth in His Word. And it's His Truth in His Word that I seek, asking Him personally through His Son while trying to follow His commandments. The best understanding of life and history I have doesn't come from my college education, it comes from my Heavenly Father in His Word. I come here to help brethren get the leaven out which is hard for most because they've been used to holding on to the leaven teachings of men for so long until there's a lot of God's Truth in His Word they can no longer even come to or consider (this matter being one of them).

Even your first statement above is snide with that "if anything at all".

I don't have... to know what all you believe about men's doctrines, all you have to do is speak and I will know whether it is aligned with God's Word or not. Anyone who stays in God's Word as written should be able to do that.

So I present the challenge again about this topic like I've shown before -- WHEN did the beast kingdom given in Rev.12:3-4 with Satan's drawing of the third of the stars (angels) exist, after Adam or before Adam???
 

michaelvpardo

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veteran said:
I trust in my Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ and His Word of Truth very much, thank you. Your snide remark is meaningless because you simply don't understand a lot of what you read, but instead throw men's traditions into it.

The beast kingdom of old given in Rev.12:3-4 when Satan rebelled, the parable about Satan in Ezek.28 and Ezek.31, all reveal the earth had already... been created, and it reveals another thing. It reveals "the world that then was" which Peter spoke of in 2 Pet.3 which is about the old world, the world prior to Adam and Eve. That's the particular point you cannot come to which is a requirement to even understand about that old beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 when Satan drew one third of the stars into rebellion with him. Apostle Peter said in 2 Pet.3 that many are "willingly ignorant" about the different world ages and you're in that category.


What we think doesn't matter, what matters is whether it is God's Word or not. All of the learning of men and traditions of men amount to nothing compared to God's Truth in His Word. And it's His Truth in His Word that I seek, asking Him personally through His Son while trying to follow His commandments. The best understanding of life and history I have doesn't come from my college education, it comes from my Heavenly Father in His Word. I come here to help brethren get the leaven out which is hard for most because they've been used to holding on to the leaven teachings of men for so long until there's a lot of God's Truth in His Word they can no longer even come to or consider (this matter being one of them).

Even your first statement above is snide with that "if anything at all".

I don't have... to know what all you believe about men's doctrines, all you have to do is speak and I will know whether it is aligned with God's Word or not. Anyone who stays in God's Word as written should be able to do that.

So I present the challenge again about this topic like I've shown before -- WHEN did the beast kingdom given in Rev.12:3-4 with Satan's drawing of the third of the stars (angels) exist, after Adam or before Adam???
Jesus spoke about seeing Satan fall In Luke 10:17-19, but since He's eternal, it could've been before creation, or at the day of Judgment. Nothing in scripture says when this happened, including those passages about the son of the morning, the prince of Tyre, etc.
Somewhere between the 5th day before the Passover when our Lord was crucified and that day Jesus spoke about the fall of Satan:30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die. John 12:30-33
The scripture doesn't have a lot more to say about it, because Satan was never meant to be the focus of our study; Jesus is.
I hope I only have to do one encore.
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
Jesus spoke about seeing Satan fall In Luke 10:17-19, but since He's eternal, it could've been before creation, or at the day of Judgment.
That line of reasoning just ain't gonna' get it done. We're talking about when the 7 crowned beast kingdom of Rev.12:3-4 was, not about our Lord Jesus seeing him fall. That's avoidance of subject you're doing, and in this case, avoiding the Rev.12:3-4 Scripture.

Let's see. In the very next Rev.13 chapter, Christ gave a picture of ANOTHER beast kingdom, one with ten crowns instead, which He linked to the prophecy in Daniel. So we KNOW it's for THIS world and associated with the earth.

If the beast kingdom of Rev.13 is associated with the earth, then the one of Rev.12:3-4 was... too. Hence, the earth had already... been created.

Moreover, because of God's parable about Satan perfect in his ways when He created him per Ezek.28 & 31, even having been exalted in God's Garden, that is PROOF of a time with Satan in good standing with God in Eden.

Thusly, when Satan as that old serpent appeared to Eve tempting her, he had already fallen, and his Rev.12:3-4 beast kingdom ended.
Michael V Pardo said:
Nothing in scripture says when this happened, including those passages about the son of the morning, the prince of Tyre, etc.
Maybe in your mind you think God's Word doesn't reveal a thing about it, but that's the seminary line you're following, and not God's Word in simplicity. There's no mistaking who God was talking about in parable form in Ezek.28 and 31, and in Isaiah 14 where He even proclaims it a "proverb".
Michael V Pardo said:
Somewhere between the 5th day before the Passover when our Lord was crucified and that day Jesus spoke about the fall of Satan:30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die. John 12:30-33
The scripture doesn't have a lot more to say about it, because Satan was never meant to be the focus of our study; Jesus is.
I hope I only have to do one encore.
So, be ignorant of Satan's rebellion and what he's coming to do in our near future, and maybe he'll just go away? Isn't an ostrich which buries its head in the sand to try and hide? I assure you, IF you don't know what he did to rebel, then you won't know what he's coming to do either, and may very well be deceived by him.
 

Asyncritus

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Michael V Pardo said:
Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die. John 12:30-33
You seem to be saying that the 'ruler of this world' is satan.

Are you sure? Doesn't it say in Daniel 4. 25 that 'the Most High ruleth in the kingdoms of men, and giveth it to whomsoever He will'?

It seems to me that Jesus could well have been talking about Himself and His own death.

He is the prince of the world, in reality, only subject to God Himself, who is the King.

He was going to be cast out: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth,... ie crucified.

Mt 21.38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

The context makes it clear that it was HIS own casting out that was on His mind.

veteran said:
So I present the challenge again about this topic like I've shown before -- WHEN did the beast kingdom given in Rev.12:3-4 with Satan's drawing of the third of the stars (angels) exist, after Adam or before Adam???
Easy: Long, long AFTER Adam.

How do we know? Because (have a look at The Great Red Dragon thread) Rev 12 is written about EVENTS THAT WERE SHORTLY TO COME TO PASS. Rev 1.1

After AD 60 or 90, whenever the book was written.
Incidentally, the prince of Tyre being in Eden is not a particularly strong point in identifying him with satan.

'Eden' doesn't necessarily mean 'the-Garden-of-Eden', because the Garden was 'in the EAST of Eden',. From which we easily see that Eden was a larger area which INCLUDED the Garden.

Here's Genesis later on:

10 ¶ And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the LORD, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.

And even later:

Isa 51:3 For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody.

That's Jerusalem and her environs. Remember I suggested that Jerusalem was the site of the Garden, and the book of Revelation seems to agree with me in chs 21,22. Have a look and you'll see.