Can you have God as your Father, without the Church as your mother?

Selene said:

I don't see how that has to do with what I posted? Is that supposed to explain why St. Paul called the Heavenly Jerusalem a mother? Perhaps, you can explain?


In my post, I did say that the Church is the bride of Christ. In Revelations 21:2, she is the New Jerusalem, so that does not contradict Ephesians 5:22-33. However, St. Paul also called the New Jerusalem "our mother."

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

(Taken from the NKJV Bible)

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Because, as Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews." It's by God's will that his people be the font by which salvation is brought to the entire world, or as stated in Romans, "to the Jew first, then also to the gentiles". This would make Jerusalem our mother in the sense that salvation started there.

This Vale Of Tears said:

Because, as Jesus said, "salvation is of the Jews." It's by God's will that his people be the font by which salvation is brought to the entire world, or as stated in Romans, "to the Jew first, then also to the gentiles". This would make Jerusalem our mother in the sense that salvation started there.

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I agree. This is why St. Paul went to see the Jews first after landing in Rome. But I actually find it interesting that in this biblical verse, St. Paul was comparing Sarah to the "Heavenly Jerusalem". According to the NLT Bible:

Galatians 4:24-26 These two women serve as an illustration of God's two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them. And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia,[fn] because she and her children live in slavery to the law. But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother.

I find this biblical passage interesting because in here, St. Paul was comparing two types of Jerusalem....the Jerusalem of Mt. Sinai and the Heavenly Jerusalem of Mt. Zion. He called the Heavenly Jerusalem "our mother." And in Revelations, this Heavenly Jerusalem is the Bride of Christ. And the Bride of Christ is also the Church.

By the way, Vale, I sent you a PM message.

Angelina said:

The New Jerusalem which comes down from Heaven is not the Church. It is the Holy city of God. If the new Jerusalem is our mother than we cannot be the bride. As I understand it, we are the redeemed of Christ from the earth. The Church is part of the grooms party [which he is the head] because the groom purchased us and we are now one with him...just as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. The marriage is between the Holy city [Jerusalem] and Christ. We will then be able to enter into the Holy City and be part of the marriage supper of the lamb and also live forever in the city of God....

Shalom!!!

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The Heavenly Jerusalem is the Church, of which we are a part of because there is only one Body of Christ. Together, with those in Heaven, we consist of the entire mystical Body of Christ.

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

According to the Letter to the Hebrews, the Heavenly Jerusalem is a Church.....the Church of the firstborn whose names are written in Heaven. Christians are part of that Church. And according to Galatians 4:26, St. Paul said that the Heavenly Jerusalem is our mother. So, the Church is also a Mother. The union between Christ and His Church brings eternal life. This is what it means to take part in the marriage supper of the lamb.....to be one with Christ.

Angelina said:

Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Amen! this verse agrees with my synopsis! ^_^

The New Jerusalem which comes down from Heaven is not the Church. It is the Holy city of God. If the new Jerusalem is our mother than we cannot be the bride. As I understand it, we are the redeemed of Christ from the earth. The Church is part of the grooms party [which he is the head] because the groom purchased us and we are now one with him...just as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one. The marriage is between the Holy city [Jerusalem] and Christ. We will then be able to enter into the Holy City and be part of the marriage supper of the lamb and also live forever in the city of God....

note: it is the Church of the firstborn but not the Church [on earth] at present....not until the marriage of the lamb. Then we who have been purchased from the earth will have the right to enter in....this has not happened yet but it will at the appointed time....

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The New Jerusalem is a Holy City AND a Church. In the same way, we are also a Holy Nation and a Church (See 1 Peter 2:9). It's the same thing.

Christ is not going to marry stones and brick walls with paved roads. He's not going to marry a city. Christ is marrying the Church. This is the reason why St. Paul compared husbands and wives to Christ and His Church. The husband is the head of the house just as Christ is head of the Church, and the wife is compared to the Church (See Ephesians 5:23-30). Christ is the bridegroom and the Church is the Bride. The Church has always been the Bride. We are the New Israel and the New Jerusalem because there is only one Body of Christ and one Bride of Christ. Christ is the bridegroom of the Church.

St. Paul already stated in Galatians 4:26 that the Heavenly Jerusalem is a mother. So, the Church is the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, and a Mother.

Selene said:

The Bride of Christ is called "New Jerusalem" (Revelations 21:2). In the Holy Bible, St. Paul refers to the New Jerusalem as "our mother."

Galatians 4:26 But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother.

(Taken from the NLT Bible)

In this biblical verse, St. Paul describes Sarah as the "Heavenly Jerusalem", and he called the Heavenly Jerusalem, which is above, our Mother. Like the Apostle Paul, Catholics also believe that the Church is a Mother.

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My understanding of grammar leads me to understand Paul as saying Sarah is our mother. I believe he is saying we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem through promise (Sarah's line), rather than flesh (Hagar's line).

day said:

My understanding of grammar leads me to understand Paul as saying Sarah is our mother. I believe he is saying we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem through promise (Sarah's line), rather than flesh (Hagar's line).

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In context of what St. Paul was saying, he was comparing the two women figuratively.

Galatians 4:26 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: "Be glad, barren woman, you who never bore a child; shout for joy and cry aloud, you who were never in labor; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband." [fn] Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.

The present city of Jerusalem is referring to the Jews who rejected Christ as the Messiah. The New Jerusalem would be the Christians. St. Pauls says that Mt. Sinai corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, but Mt. Zion is where the Heavenly Jerusalem is. In here, St. Paul calls the Heavenly Jerusalem "our mother" and calls us "children" rather than citizens of New Jerusalem.

Romans 9:27-33 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved. For the Lord will carry out his sentence on earth with speed and finality." [fn] It is just as Isaiah said previously: "Unless the Lord Almighty had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom, we would have been like Gomorrah." [fn] What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame."

In the Letter to the Hebrews, Mt. Zion is where the Heavenly Jerusalem is (See Hebrews 12:22).

Just as there is a mystery about the Holy Trinity, there is also a mystery about the Church. Why? Because the Church is divine despite that her members are sinful. The Church is divine because she was built by Christ, not by human hands. She is the Body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, and a Mother. The Church produces children......the children of God, who are also disciples of Christ. She produces children when the Church goes out to preach the Gospel of Christ to all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (See Matthew 28:19)

Angelina said:

Not everything that Calvin believed was inherently misguided...just some things like T.U.L.I.P [A retraction]...thus far, Calvin has outdone himself with this little morsel...

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John Calvin didn't come up with TULIP, just so you know. His followers organized his teachings into TULIP long after his death.

Go home Aspen you're drunk.

That was unkind. :unsure:

Um....I looked it up oline because, and don't take this personally (although that might be hard), but some of the responses are as clear as mud. And aspen, you have beaten a path
around the bush so much I am dizzy...LOL!...I think you appear to be uncomfortable with what some appear to be saying? Whack me if I am wrong

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
The verse that I have used as a text for this short message is sometimes used to support the doctrine of a "mother church." With no desire to be offensive to any who have used it in that manner, I must say emphatically that this is not the idea which Paul and the Holy Spirit had in mind when this verse was penned. One must totally remove the verse from its context to use it to teach that it means that the church at Jerusalem was the "mother church" of all other true churches.

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So, is the above what is being said (I am not the I of the quote) and the author states further:

Paul tells us that he is using a figure of speech that is called an allegory. An allegory is a story that may use real or imagined things to represent something else for the purpose of illustrating and teaching a lesson.
To use the expression "mother of us all" to teach the "mother church" as some do, one must totally ignore the allegorical use of this by Paul. Moreover, in this allegory, Paul contrasts the Jerusalem on earth which, at the time of this writing, was in bondage to the Roman Empire in contrast with the Jewish idea of the heavenly Jerusalem, "Jerusalem which is above,"the city for which Abraham and other people of faith were looking. Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Angelina said:

That is correct....we become citizens along with all Jewish believers...

Ephesians 2
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Note: We have become fellow citizens and members of his household but not his wife... we are the CHILDREN of the promise...

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The Temple of God is the Church because our bodies have become the temple....the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. The Church is also the Bride of Christ. God's family is about relationship. Christ's bride is not made of stone walls and paved roads.

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Here, St. Paul describes the husband as the head of the wife. In the same way, Christ is the head of His wife, whom St. Paul named "the Church."

Ephesians 5:24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

Here, the Church is described as the wife. Now, look at what St. Paul was saying in Ephesians 5:32.

Ephesians 5:25-32 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing [fn] her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—for we are members of his body. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." [fn] This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

St. Paul speaks about the marriage between husbands and wives....and he concludes toward the end that he was speaking more about Christ and the Church. In Paul's analogy in Ephesians, the Church is the Bride of Christ.

Niki said:

Um....I looked it up oline because, and don't take this personally (although that might be hard), but some of the responses are as clear as mud. And aspen, you have beaten a path
around the bush so much I am dizzy...LOL!...I think you appear to be uncomfortable with what some appear to be saying? Whack me if I am wrong


So, is the above what is being said (I am not the I of the quote) and the author states further:

Paul tells us that he is using a figure of speech that is called an allegory. An allegory is a story that may use real or imagined things to represent something else for the purpose of illustrating and teaching a lesson.
To use the expression "mother of us all" to teach the "mother church" as some do, one must totally ignore the allegorical use of this by Paul. Moreover, in this allegory, Paul contrasts the Jerusalem on earth which, at the time of this writing, was in bondage to the Roman Empire in contrast with the Jewish idea of the heavenly Jerusalem, "Jerusalem which is above,"the city for which Abraham and other people of faith were looking. Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

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Are you certain you read my post? St. Paul was speaking to the Galatian converts in Galatia. He wasn't comparing cities on earth and cities in Heaven. The New Jerusalem is us....the Church. The mystical body of Christ includes all Christians on earth and in Heaven. The Body of Christ does not include ONLY those Christians on earth. When a Christian dies, they don't stop being part of the body of Christ.

The Roman Catholic Church has held the doctrine that there is no salvation without the church, and has typically referred to the church as mother, but this would appear to be a self serving doctrine, strengthening the threat of excommunication. The biblical references are harder to nail down, but the scripture often associates cities with women, perhaps in the sense that they are birthplaces of civilization; Eg. Babylon the great, the mother of harlotries. The scripture tells us of spiritual authorities in the heavenly places, angelic beings with power and influence in their own "regions" of the earth. The bible gives us descriptions of them using masculine forms, e.g. princes, but this doesn't mean that there aren't those in feminine form. Certainly some of the demons of the nations that were worshipped as idols were represented as women or female animals. All these things being said, God alone is our savior, so saying that the church is necessary for salvation seems a little bit blasphemous, and yet the body of Christ remains His presence upon the earth empowered with the gospel. I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the verse that says that we, the saints, are seated with Christ in the heavenly places; we're there and we're here. Perhaps that has to do with us entering into eternity (in spirit), but perhaps it doesn't. I think that the topic was intended to be inflamatory and divisive, but it wouldn't be the first.