The hypergrace controversy: Heresy, maturity, or somewhere in between?

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veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
I'm not convinced that any true "believers" fall away. Some folks have an intellectual understanding of Christian doctrine that they've received through study or through someone else's teaching, attend church regularly, signed a card, prayed a prayer, etc., but never really saw through to their own sinful condition and actually received the gospel. If you were to take a poll on the street and ask people first if they were "Christian" and then asked why to those who made that claim, you might be surprised at how many haven't ever heard the gospel, or saw themselves as sinners needing to be saved.
Let's be realists, our Lord Jesus and His Apostles are.

When our Lord Jesus foretold us in Matt.24:23-26 that the coming pseudochristos would do great signs and wonders that IF possible it would decieve His very elect, then that means what concerning many brethren in that future time?

It means even many 'true believers' will be deceived by that false one, especially if it would almost deceive His very elect.

Trying to attach all that hoopla to classify what is a true believer just won't work. Our Lord Jesus knows who is sincere and who is not. So that never was His point of that Matt.24 Scripture. His point was, and is, the coming deception by the false messiah / Antichrist will be so strong that it will fool even innocent true believers that are not sealed yet.

This is why I spend so much time talking about that coming event, because I want brethren that are not yet aware to become 'sealed' in The Lord by His preparation. Even many that claim to have The Holy Spirit are not sealed in that matter today, and because of some of the extra-curricula doctrines they follow instead many of them probably won't be.

Each generation has its trials and tribulations. Ours is more so, because that pseudochristos is to come in our generation. It will be a trial upon believers of a type that this world has never seen the likes of before, nor ever will again. And just what are many preparing to do? Some plan to 'fly away', and others plan to 'run away'. Neither group today shall escape it.

How many Churches today are giving this warning of the coming pseudochristos to Jerusalem to play Christ? The early Church saw it as the major event of the last days, and looked for it. Just because the signs for it did not come to pass in their days that means we today can relax about it and think it's far off from us? No, it is right upon us today and will occur in this last generation we are in now.
 

michaelvpardo

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veteran said:
Let's be realists, our Lord Jesus and His Apostles are.

When our Lord Jesus foretold us in Matt.24:23-26 that the coming pseudochristos would do great signs and wonders that IF possible it would decieve His very elect, then that means what concerning many brethren in that future time?

It means even many 'true believers' will be deceived by that false one, especially if it would almost deceive His very elect.

Trying to attach all that hoopla to classify what is a true believer just won't work. Our Lord Jesus knows who is sincere and who is not. So that never was His point of that Matt.24 Scripture. His point was, and is, the coming deception by the false messiah / Antichrist will be so strong that it will fool even innocent true believers that are not sealed yet.

This is why I spend so much time talking about that coming event, because I want brethren that are not yet aware to become 'sealed' in The Lord by His preparation. Even many that claim to have The Holy Spirit are not sealed in that matter today, and because of some of the extra-curricula doctrines they follow instead many of them probably won't be.

Each generation has its trials and tribulations. Ours is more so, because that pseudochristos is to come in our generation. It will be a trial upon believers of a type that this world has never seen the likes of before, nor ever will again. And just what are many preparing to do? Some plan to 'fly away', and others plan to 'run away'. Neither group today shall escape it.

How many Churches today are giving this warning of the coming pseudochristos to Jerusalem to play Christ? The early Church saw it as the major event of the last days, and looked for it. Just because the signs for it did not come to pass in their days that means we today can relax about it and think it's far off from us? No, it is right upon us today and will occur in this last generation we are in now.
I think that the key words in Jesus' statement were "if" and "possible". Jesus also said: 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28 Jesus said this to Jews who were engaged in the worship of the God of the Bible, in the temple, the place where the Lord manifested His glory prior to it's earlier destruction. At least some of these were "believers" under the Old Testament covenant of law, yet they rejected the truth as revealed in Christ Jesus. The Pharisees believed that they were righteous according to their works and there are many such people today that call themselves "Christian," yet their righteousness is no greater than that of the Pharisees. If their trust is in their works, how could they have received the Lord by faith? How could they be called His sheep? The righteousness that we need is the righteousness of God and that only comes with the indwelling of His Spirit and the justification which is by faith.
You talk about the trials that are coming as though they weren't intended by God, but the Lord even said that He would allow false prophets from among His people to test their hearts and their faithfulness to Him: “If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deuteronomy 13:1-3 This passage was given to Israel under the Law, but those things which are written in the Law were given for our understanding more than they were for them. The Lord knows who His own are, even when we don't know, but if we have no assurance of our relationship to Him from His word and through His Spirit, we couldn't be said to be trusting Him. Jesus also said: 10 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” Those who "hear" the voice of the anti-Christ and follow him are not of the sheepfold, even if they call themselves a church or "Christian."
The scripture isn't "hoopla," it's the word of God and His promises aren't "yes" and "no": 20 For all the promises of God in Him are Yes, and in Him Amen, to the glory of God through us. 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. 2 Corinthians 1:20-21
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
I think that the key words in Jesus' statement were "if" and "possible". Jesus also said: 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:26-28 Jesus said this to Jews who were engaged in the worship of the God of the Bible, in the temple, the place where the Lord manifested His glory prior to it's earlier destruction. At least some of these were "believers" under the Old Testament covenant of law, yet they rejected the truth as revealed in Christ Jesus. The Pharisees believed that they were righteous according to their works and there are many such people today that call themselves "Christian," yet their righteousness is no greater than that of the Pharisees. If their trust is in their works, how could they have received the Lord by faith? How could they be called His sheep? The righteousness that we need is the righteousness of God and that only comes with the indwelling of His Spirit and the justification which is by faith.
Big difference between the orthodox Jews and one who has confessed Christ Jesus as their Saviour but also deceived in the end. Likewise with the Judaizers of the Pharisees that supposedly converted to Christ in the Apostle's days.

Apostle Paul's Message of warning in 2 Cor.11 about the "another Jesus" is another version of Christ's warning about the pseudochristos in Matt.24:23-26. In BOTH, the warning is to the BELIEVER to not be DECEIVED. And you're gonna' try and act like that cannot happen, even when both our Lord Jesus and His Apostle warned us of that very thing? Here's how 2 + 2 = 4 in that; that warning would not have been given to Christ's Church if it were not possible for some brethren to be deceived by the coming false messiah. You're just not using common sense.
 

Alanforchrist

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This Vale Of Tears said:
Exactly. And moreover, the only time you see the phrase "faith alone" in the Bible is when James asserts that a man is saved by works and NOT faith alone.

This Vale Of Tears said:
Exactly. And moreover, the only time you see the phrase "faith alone" in the Bible is when James asserts that a man is saved by works and NOT faith alone.
James isn't talking about works for salvation, Please keep James in it's right context.


We are saved by faith, NOT BY WORKS, Eph 2: 8-9. Titus 3: 5. Also see Rom chs 3,4 &5.
 

michaelvpardo

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veteran said:
Big difference between the orthodox Jews and one who has confessed Christ Jesus as their Saviour but also deceived in the end. Likewise with the Judaizers of the Pharisees that supposedly converted to Christ in the Apostle's days.

Apostle Paul's Message of warning in 2 Cor.11 about the "another Jesus" is another version of Christ's warning about the pseudochristos in Matt.24:23-26. In BOTH, the warning is to the BELIEVER to not be DECEIVED. And you're gonna' try and act like that cannot happen, even when both our Lord Jesus and His Apostle warned us of that very thing? Here's how 2 + 2 = 4 in that; that warning would not have been given to Christ's Church if it were not possible for some brethren to be deceived by the coming false messiah. You're just not using common sense.
Veteran, you're arguing against the word, not against me. I was deceived into believing in the pre-tribulation rapture, but the Lord showed me the truth. That's what He does and not just for me, but for all who have received His Spirit. It isn't that we can't be deceived by a liar, but that the Lord will not allow us to remain prisoners in our deception. The bible clearly defines the anti-Christ in terms of his spirit:
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 1 John 2:21-23
The only way that you can receive the anti-Christ as Jesus is by first denying the historical Jesus who came nearly 2000 years ago (not that he existed, but that He was born as the only begotten Son of God, died for our sin, and rose from the dead,) in the same manner as Mohammed and other anti-christs who have followed through all these years. If you've received His Spirit, then you have His witness within you, and the Witness will never deny Jesus. If you haven't received His Spirit, then you've never known Him, regardless of any profession of faith. This is neither complicated or untrue, but is the testimony of scripture, the testimony of God Himself. There were many Jews who abandoned faith in Christ in the first century, but these obviously never truly believed in the first place. Those that received His Spirit persevered through the persecutions, the Roman assault upon Israel and destruction of the temple, and the false teachings of the Jews that taught that Jesus wasn't enough, but that circumcision and law were also necessary for salvation. There are many professing "Christians" out there today that hold to similar views because they have never received the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the righteousness which is by faith and through the indwelling of His Spirit. Common sense has little to do with it, but the Word of God has everything to do with it, and He will never deny Himself. Amen.
 

BLACK SHEEP

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I was deceived into believing in the pre-tribulation rapture, but the Lord showed me the truth.
Congratulations! You're the second one on the forum (that I've noticed) that has admitted making a mistake and changed their mind!!
I remember a couple of years ago we debated the pre-trib position. You did the right thing!

God bless you!
 

michaelvpardo

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kaotic profit said:
Congratulations! You're the second one on the forum (that I've noticed) that has admitted making a mistake and changed their mind!!
I remember a couple of years ago we debated the pre-trib position. You did the right thing!

God bless you!
Thanks brother,
Like most people, I've always had the desire to be "right" rather than wrong. Being "right" implies having a righteousness of our own. Now, I would rather be "correct" than concern myself with being "right," but only for the purposes of instruction so as not to mislead someone else. I'm quite content to be found righteous in Him, in having received Him, and would much rather be hidden in His righteousness, rather than be on display for my own (which at best is a farce.) I'd like to think that as we mature in Christ, being correct for the sake of the love of the brethren, will become more important to us than being "right" for the sake of little more than personal pride. Every time the Lord shows me more of His glory in the study of His word, it tends to crush me and make me feel insignificant, and more like hiding from His glory than rejoicing in it, but in His grace He lifts me back up so that I may draw near. Right relationship is essential to right understanding, first to Him, and then to each other. I'd be quite pleased to never offend you or anyone else again, but if I offend, I would hope that it would be through the preaching of His cross, rather than by the working of my flesh. Thank you for the grace that you've shown me and I pray that I may always extend as much to you as well. Amen.
 

BLACK SHEEP

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Michael V Pardo said:
Thanks brother,
Like most people, I've always had the desire to be "right" rather than wrong. Being "right" implies having a righteousness of our own. Now, I would rather be "correct" than concern myself with being "right," but only for the purposes of instruction so as not to mislead someone else. I'm quite content to be found righteous in Him, in having received Him, and would much rather be hidden in His righteousness, rather than be on display for my own (which at best is a farce.) I'd like to think that as we mature in Christ, being correct for the sake of the love of the brethren, will become more important to us than being "right" for the sake of little more than personal pride. Every time the Lord shows me more of His glory in the study of His word, it tends to crush me and make me feel insignificant, and more like hiding from His glory than rejoicing in it, but in His grace He lifts me back up so that I may draw near. Right relationship is essential to right understanding, first to Him, and then to each other. I'd be quite pleased to never offend you or anyone else again, but if I offend, I would hope that it would be through the preaching of His cross, rather than by the working of my flesh. Thank you for the grace that you've shown me and I pray that I may always extend as much to you as well. Amen.
People are getting away from the pre-trib rapture position and praise His Holy Name for that!
I wish that I and other Christians had a humble spirit like yours. I know I need to chill out and humble myself too.

In many ways I think all of us will soon humble ourselves because the world could change very soon and it'll never be as we know it today again. "God will bring low the arrogance of man." Soon the fuse will be lit in the Arab/Muslim world and it'll spill over the entire globe.........welcome to tribulation!

I wish people would consider the views of others more humbly rather than adamantly oppose them. But then if they did and were enlightened to the truth they would have to do like you did. Admit they believed something that's false and change their mind!
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
Veteran, you're arguing against the word, not against me. I was deceived into believing in the pre-tribulation rapture, but the Lord showed me the truth. That's what He does and not just for me, but for all who have received His Spirit. It isn't that we can't be deceived by a liar, but that the Lord will not allow us to remain prisoners in our deception. The bible clearly defines the anti-Christ in terms of his spirit:
Well, you clearly don't understand our Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about a coming false messiah which is a certain Antichrist figure at the end of this world. Thus you are already prepared for that coming deception in order for you to be deceived. And you claim that I'm arguing against God's Word by preaching that warning? Your mind is obviously in a bubble, along with those who would agree with you on that which are also prepared to be deceived by the coming false messiah.
 

michaelvpardo

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veteran said:
Well, you clearly don't understand our Lord Jesus' and His Apostle's warnings about a coming false messiah which is a certain Antichrist figure at the end of this world. Thus you are already prepared for that coming deception in order for you to be deceived. And you claim that I'm arguing against God's Word by preaching that warning? Your mind is obviously in a bubble, along with those who would agree with you on that which are also prepared to be deceived by the coming false messiah.
Is the coming false messiah that I and other born again believers are going to be deceived by going to be coming on the clouds of heaven with His saints and Holy Angels? I think that maybe you need a reality check. I know that there are plenty of professing "Christians" that are completely biblically illiterate, but I'm not and neither are most that are born again.
kaotic profit said:
People are getting away from the pre-trib rapture position and praise His Holy Name for that!
I wish that I and other Christians had a humble spirit like yours. I know I need to chill out and humble myself too.

In many ways I think all of us will soon humble ourselves because the world could change very soon and it'll never be as we know it today again. "God will bring low the arrogance of man." Soon the fuse will be lit in the Arab/Muslim world and it'll spill over the entire globe.........welcome to tribulation!

I wish people would consider the views of others more humbly rather than adamantly oppose them. But then if they did and were enlightened to the truth they would have to do like you did. Admit they believed something that's false and change their mind!
I've never thought of myself as being particularly humble, but the Lord is able to humble us and commonly does through the circumstances of our lives. Those circumstances that are coming, as I know you understand, will no doubt be profoundly humiliating to any who call upon the name of the Lord, but all things in this world are only for a season and we have a new world to look forward to, ruled over by our Lord in a reign of righteousness. That's a day worth waiting for.
 

This Vale Of Tears

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kaotic profit said:
People are getting away from the pre-trib rapture position and praise His Holy Name for that!
I wish that I and other Christians had a humble spirit like yours. I know I need to chill out and humble myself too.

In many ways I think all of us will soon humble ourselves because the world could change very soon and it'll never be as we know it today again. "God will bring low the arrogance of man." Soon the fuse will be lit in the Arab/Muslim world and it'll spill over the entire globe.........welcome to tribulation!

I wish people would consider the views of others more humbly rather than adamantly oppose them. But then if they did and were enlightened to the truth they would have to do like you did. Admit they believed something that's false and change their mind!
I remember going to a church service at BIOLA University in Los Angeles. They poured on the pre-trib teaching thick, weaving it multiple times in the sermon as if daring disagreement. The pretribulation cult started in Britain in the 19th century and metastasized to America. It's when people finally realize that Christians have not believed in this doctrine for the entire history of the church that proper perspective is gained and the dispensationalist lie is exposed.
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
Is the coming false messiah that I and other born again believers are going to be deceived by going to be coming on the clouds of heaven with His saints and Holy Angels? I think that maybe you need a reality check. I know that there are plenty of professing "Christians" that are completely biblically illiterate, but I'm not and neither are most that are born again.
And Peter claimed he would never deny our Lord, yet he did, three times. But when it counted, at Peter's own trial and execution, Peter did not deny Him. Let's hope we don't either when the time comes.
 

michaelvpardo

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veteran said:
And Peter claimed he would never deny our Lord, yet he did, three times. But when it counted, at Peter's own trial and execution, Peter did not deny Him. Let's hope we don't either when the time comes.
[SIZE=12pt]Yes, Peter did deny the Lord three times, but this was before he'd received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; Jesus said that the Holy Spirit was with his disciples and would be in them, but first He had to go to the cross and pay the price for our sin (and Peter's sin as well.) You might be surprised at how many "Christians" on this message board alone don't really get this point. It's one thing to understand something intellectually and it's another to receive it as true. I deserve destruction, death, and condemnation. According to scripture, if you did so much as rebel against something your parents told you to do, even once in your lifetime, you deserve the same penalty. None of us deserves redemption or salvation, that's what makes grace what it is. The scary part about this with respect to "Christianity" at large is the vast number of people who believe themselves to be good in spite of what the scripture says about themselves (it doesn't apply to them. How could it? It must be about someone else.) What the so called "hyper-grace" teachers that I've listened to teach is that you can never have a proper walk with Jesus if you continue in the notion that you are being condemned by every sin that you commit after having received Christ and must go back for forgiveness over and over again. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The Lord wants us to be obedient to Him, but as our Father (once having received Him through His Spirit) He's no longer condemning us, but correcting us and there's a huge difference between the two. We know what the book of Hebrews says about this, though some believe it actual while others consider it hypothetical: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]26. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27. but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries[/SIZE].[SIZE=10.5pt] Hebrews 10:26-27[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I once struggled with this verse, but our doctrine has to be built not on single verses, but by comparing verse to verse with other passages dealing with the same issue. The last passage follows a complementary passage from the same chapter: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]14. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 15. And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]16. "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,'' [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]17. then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.'' 18. Now [/SIZE]where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
[SIZE=12pt]19. Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]20. by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21. and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22. let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Hebrews 10:14-22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Verses 18 and 26 would seem to suggest that if you commit some sin intentionally once having received Christ, that you are automatically condemned (and this is probably why teachers avoided the book of Hebrews for a very long time.) But when we look at what John wrote in 1st John we find:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. [/SIZE]1 John 1:6-10
[SIZE=12pt]Some people like to point out verse 9 saying here you go, this verse proves that you can lose your salvation, but verse 7 actually tells us what salvation is (in a somewhat cryptic way):”[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] We are being constantly cleansed from all sin by the blood of Jesus Christ if we walk in fellowship with Him. This isn’t accomplished by our will, but by His Spirit indwelling us. We can profess Him without knowing Him, but we can only have fellowship with Him if we know Him. To put it another way, we walk in the light because we know Him. If we don’t know Him we can’t walk in His light, but remain in darkness. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Going back to the book of Hebrews, if we understand that the book is written to a congregation of Hebrew “believers” and is about the excellence of the New Covenant as compared to the Old, we also find earlier in that same book:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]12. Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13. but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today,'' lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Hebrews 3:12-14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]18. And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19. So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Hebrews 3:18-19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]These verses don’t claim that we haven’t received salvation until the end, but rather that those who “have become partakers of Christ” hold the beginning of our confidence to the end. The reason the word “if” is in the sentence is because this only applies to those who have received the Spirit of Christ through faith in Him. The exhortation is to a congregation and such verses specifically to those who may not really believe the gospel. The scripture doesn’t define belief as a simple assent to the truth, but as a confidence in the truth that renders a person’s life in compliance to the truth. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Let’s consider the thief on the cross beside our Lord, who came to repentance during the last hours of his life. He spoke to Jesus with these words: "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.'' From Luke 23:42 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This thief didn’t say, Lord I believe you so I’m coming with you, but rather expressed a belief in the person of Jesus Christ, calling Him Lord and acknowledging Him as the rightful heir of the kingdom of God, and demonstrated a confident hope in the Lord’s faithfulness to those who put their trust in Him by saying “remember me.” Jesus responded not simply to the thief’s words, but to them as an expression of his faith: "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.[/SIZE]'' From Luke 23:43
[SIZE=12pt]The thief entered into fellowship with Christ while on his own cross, believing Him and becoming a partaker in Him. This had nothing to do with works (outside of the thief’s confession of faith), but was entirely the working of God’s grace.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Now, let’s go back to Hebrews: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]10. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. 11. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]. Hebrews 4:10-11[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]God calls us, just as He did this congregation of Hebrew “believers,” to enter into His rest (that righteousness provided in the person of our Lord), to cease from our works (for a righteousness of our own), and not to be disobedient to enter into that rest through unbelief. You can’t argue that the disobedience of the Hebrews was about works, because after hearing the word of the Lord from Moses about their rebellion and disbelief they changed their minds and were willing to do the works that God commanded of them: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] And they rose early in the morning and went up to the top of the mountain, saying, "Here we are, and we will go up to the place which the Lord has promised, for we have sinned!'[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]' Numbers 14:40[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Yet this was after the Lord had sworn an oath: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]28. "Say to them, `As I live,' says the Lord, `just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: 29. `The carcasses of you who have murmured against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above. 30. `Except for Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun, you shall by no means enter the land which I swore I would make you dwell in. 31. `But your little ones, whom you said would be victims, I will bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Numbers 14:28-31[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]So they were condemned because of their unbelief and lack of faith. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]We are commanded or exhorted to have faith,or to hold onto our confidence to the end, to believe the promise of the Lord and to hold onto our fellowship with Him (to abide in Him). This is what cleanses us and sanctifies us and renews our mind. It doesn’t happen in a vacuum, but through having fellowship with Him in His word, believing it, living it, sharing it, but none of these are even possible if we don’t know Him through the person of His Spirit. We have to strive to enter in by faith, but once having entered in we are called to rest in Him. It seems a bit contradictory, but so did the passage of the tribes of Israel out of the land of Egypt and through the red sea into the wilderness of Sinai. The tribes of Israel had to enter into the depths of the sea with the waters piling up on their left and on their right. This required faith, even if motivated by fear of destruction. The destruction of the army of Pharaoh was accomplished by God, not by Israel, but Israel was called to be a witness of God’s mighty salvation and to enter into His rest. God accomplishes our salvation through the blood of our Savior and we are called to enter into His rest. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Jesus is called not just the second “Adam,” but the “last Adam. (see 1 Corinthians 15:45) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Adam was created without sin and with the genuine ability to choose to do what was good or what was evil, but without the knowledge to discern one from the other. As people born under the curse, with a fallen nature our choice or “free will” has been corrupted by our nature. Jesus, in redeeming us from sin has provided the way, through His Spirit, for our corrupt nature to be overcome, for us to overcome sin by trusting in what He has done for us, not in what we can do for ourselves. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This is what the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ says: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]10. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11. "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Revelation 12:10-11[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]What does this say? Those that overcome the adversary of God do so by the blood of the lamb, the word of their testimony, and putting their love of God over the love of their lives. None of these are possible without receiving His Spirit and in receiving His Spirit we have the assurance: for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Who can defeat God? Simple answer: nothing, no one, not Satan, and certainly not us. If we've received His Spirit then there remains a war within us, between His Spirit and our fleshly nature (according to the fall), but in the end, God wins, even over any willful disobedience or carnality that remains with us.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]I don't like chastisement. I don't like the rod of correction. I don't like being reminded when I make wrong choices, but I love the God who saves me from everything including from myself. The more I love Him, the more easily I can obey Him and trust Him when obeying is difficult or seemingly impossible. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]I wish that I were as faithful as my Lord, but I'm reassured by the fact that He has chosen to renew me in His image and according to His will and not my own. I rest upon His word and upon the Spirit within me that testifies to the truth of His word. Any man can be deceived, but can a man be deceived by the truth? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]My heart, the center of my being, is at rest in His love. Every one of us is tested, but the test is for us and not for the One who knows us and has always known us. He doesn't prove us, He proves Himself to us, rewarding us for our faith in Him, and not with temporal things, but with eternal things. This is the only way that the beatitudes make any sense, and so we walk by faith and live by faith and are justified by faith. Not some faith that we work up in ourselves, but by what He supplies by His Spirit and through His word, and in the person of His Son, even our Lord, Jesus called the Christ. Amen.[/SIZE]


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veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
[SIZE=12pt]Yes, Peter did deny the Lord three times, but this was before he'd received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; Jesus said that the Holy Spirit was with his disciples and would be in them, but first He had to go to the cross and pay the price for our sin (and Peter's sin as well.) You might be surprised at how many "Christians" on this message board alone don't really get this point. It's one thing to understand something intellectually and it's another to receive it as true. I deserve destruction, death, and condemnation. According to scripture, if you did so much as rebel against something your parents told you to do, even once in your lifetime, you deserve the same penalty. None of us deserves redemption or salvation, that's what makes grace what it is. The scary part about this with respect to "Christianity" at large is the vast number of people who believe themselves to be good in spite of what the scripture says about themselves (it doesn't apply to them. How could it? It must be about someone else.) What the so called "hyper-grace" teachers that I've listened to teach is that you can never have a proper walk with Jesus if you continue in the notion that you are being condemned by every sin that you commit after having received Christ and must go back for forgiveness over and over again. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The Lord wants us to be obedient to Him, but as our Father (once having received Him through His Spirit) He's no longer condemning us, but correcting us and there's a huge difference between the two. We know what the book of Hebrews says about this, though some believe it actual while others consider it hypothetical: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]26. For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27. but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries[/SIZE].[SIZE=10.5pt] Hebrews 10:26-27[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I once struggled with this verse, but our doctrine has to be built not on single verses, but by comparing verse to verse with other passages dealing with the same issue. The last passage follows a complementary passage from the same chapter: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]14. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. 15. And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]16. "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,'' [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]17. then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.'' 18. Now [/SIZE]where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
[SIZE=12pt]19. Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]20. by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21. and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22. let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Hebrews 10:14-22[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Verses 18 and 26 would seem to suggest that if you commit some sin intentionally once having received Christ, that you are automatically condemned (and this is probably why teachers avoided the book of Hebrews for a very long time.) But when we look at what John wrote in 1st John we find:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. [/SIZE]1 John 1:6-10
[SIZE=12pt]Some people like to point out verse 9 saying here you go, this verse proves that you can lose your salvation, but verse 7 actually tells us what salvation is (in a somewhat cryptic way):”[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] We are being constantly cleansed from all sin by the blood of Jesus Christ if we walk in fellowship with Him. This isn’t accomplished by our will, but by His Spirit indwelling us. We can profess Him without knowing Him, but we can only have fellowship with Him if we know Him. To put it another way, we walk in the light because we know Him. If we don’t know Him we can’t walk in His light, but remain in darkness. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Going back to the book of Hebrews, if we understand that the book is written to a congregation of Hebrew “believers” and is about the excellence of the New Covenant as compared to the Old, we also find earlier in that same book:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]12. Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13. but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today,'' lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Hebrews 3:12-14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]18. And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19. So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Hebrews 3:18-19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]These verses don’t claim that we haven’t received salvation until the end, but rather that those who “have become partakers of Christ” hold the beginning of our confidence to the end. The reason the word “if” is in the sentence is because this only applies to those who have received the Spirit of Christ through faith in Him. The exhortation is to a congregation and such verses specifically to those who may not really believe the gospel. The scripture doesn’t define belief as a simple assent to the truth, but as a confidence in the truth that renders a person’s life in compliance to the truth. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Let’s consider the thief on the cross beside our Lord, who came to repentance during the last hours of his life. He spoke to Jesus with these words: "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.'' From Luke 23:42 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This thief didn’t say, Lord I believe you so I’m coming with you, but rather expressed a belief in the person of Jesus Christ, calling Him Lord and acknowledging Him as the rightful heir of the kingdom of God, and demonstrated a confident hope in the Lord’s faithfulness to those who put their trust in Him by saying “remember me.” Jesus responded not simply to the thief’s words, but to them as an expression of his faith: "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.[/SIZE]'' From Luke 23:43
[SIZE=12pt]The thief entered into fellowship with Christ while on his own cross, believing Him and becoming a partaker in Him. This had nothing to do with works (outside of the thief’s confession of faith), but was entirely the working of God’s grace.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Now, let’s go back to Hebrews: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]10. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. 11. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]. Hebrews 4:10-11[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]God calls us, just as He did this congregation of Hebrew “believers,” to enter into His rest (that righteousness provided in the person of our Lord), to cease from our works (for a righteousness of our own), and not to be disobedient to enter into that rest through unbelief. You can’t argue that the disobedience of the Hebrews was about works, because after hearing the word of the Lord from Moses about their rebellion and disbelief they changed their minds and were willing to do the works that God commanded of them: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] And they rose early in the morning and went up to the top of the mountain, saying, "Here we are, and we will go up to the place which the Lord has promised, for we have sinned!'[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]' Numbers 14:40[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Yet this was after the Lord had sworn an oath: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]28. "Say to them, `As I live,' says the Lord, `just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: 29. `The carcasses of you who have murmured against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above. 30. `Except for Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun, you shall by no means enter the land which I swore I would make you dwell in. 31. `But your little ones, whom you said would be victims, I will bring in, and they shall know the land which you have despised.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Numbers 14:28-31[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]So they were condemned because of their unbelief and lack of faith. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]We are commanded or exhorted to have faith,or to hold onto our confidence to the end, to believe the promise of the Lord and to hold onto our fellowship with Him (to abide in Him). This is what cleanses us and sanctifies us and renews our mind. It doesn’t happen in a vacuum, but through having fellowship with Him in His word, believing it, living it, sharing it, but none of these are even possible if we don’t know Him through the person of His Spirit. We have to strive to enter in by faith, but once having entered in we are called to rest in Him. It seems a bit contradictory, but so did the passage of the tribes of Israel out of the land of Egypt and through the red sea into the wilderness of Sinai. The tribes of Israel had to enter into the depths of the sea with the waters piling up on their left and on their right. This required faith, even if motivated by fear of destruction. The destruction of the army of Pharaoh was accomplished by God, not by Israel, but Israel was called to be a witness of God’s mighty salvation and to enter into His rest. God accomplishes our salvation through the blood of our Savior and we are called to enter into His rest. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Jesus is called not just the second “Adam,” but the “last Adam. (see 1 Corinthians 15:45) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Adam was created without sin and with the genuine ability to choose to do what was good or what was evil, but without the knowledge to discern one from the other. As people born under the curse, with a fallen nature our choice or “free will” has been corrupted by our nature. Jesus, in redeeming us from sin has provided the way, through His Spirit, for our corrupt nature to be overcome, for us to overcome sin by trusting in what He has done for us, not in what we can do for ourselves. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This is what the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ says: [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]10. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11. "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Revelation 12:10-11[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]What does this say? Those that overcome the adversary of God do so by the blood of the lamb, the word of their testimony, and putting their love of God over the love of their lives. None of these are possible without receiving His Spirit and in receiving His Spirit we have the assurance: for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:13 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Who can defeat God? Simple answer: nothing, no one, not Satan, and certainly not us. If we've received His Spirit then there remains a war within us, between His Spirit and our fleshly nature (according to the fall), but in the end, God wins, even over any willful disobedience or carnality that remains with us.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]I don't like chastisement. I don't like the rod of correction. I don't like being reminded when I make wrong choices, but I love the God who saves me from everything including from myself. The more I love Him, the more easily I can obey Him and trust Him when obeying is difficult or seemingly impossible. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]I wish that I were as faithful as my Lord, but I'm reassured by the fact that He has chosen to renew me in His image and according to His will and not my own. I rest upon His word and upon the Spirit within me that testifies to the truth of His word. Any man can be deceived, but can a man be deceived by the truth? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]My heart, the center of my being, is at rest in His love. Every one of us is tested, but the test is for us and not for the One who knows us and has always known us. He doesn't prove us, He proves Himself to us, rewarding us for our faith in Him, and not with temporal things, but with eternal things. This is the only way that the beatitudes make any sense, and so we walk by faith and live by faith and are justified by faith. Not some faith that we work up in ourselves, but by what He supplies by His Spirit and through His word, and in the person of His Son, even our Lord, Jesus called the Christ. Amen.[/SIZE]


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Point taken. You're taking up for Peter. I'm not, I'm sure Peter realized the significance of his act of denying Christ, but you failed to show us the relevant Scripture of why... he denied our Lord Jesus then...

Matt 26:31-32
31 Then saith Jesus unto them, "All ye shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, 'I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.'
32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee."
(KJV)
 

michaelvpardo

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veteran said:
Point taken. You're taking up for Peter. I'm not, I'm sure Peter realized the significance of his act of denying Christ, but you failed to show us the relevant Scripture of why... he denied our Lord Jesus then...

Matt 26:31-32
31 Then saith Jesus unto them, "All ye shall be offended because of Me this night: for it is written, 'I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.'
32 But after I am risen again, I will go before you into Galilee."
(KJV)
[SIZE=medium]This topic is not about Peter, but about the doctrines of grace (as opposed to doing works to establish a righteousness of your own.) The Doctor that I mentioned in my original post stated that teachers of “hyper-grace” consider it sin to pray for forgiveness if a person has already received the gift of God’s grace through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I’m not sure that I would go so far, but asking God to forgive you once He has already forgiven you could be called a sin of “unbelief.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]In my last post I quoted some passages from the book of Hebrews which included this:[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]17. then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.'' 18. Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. [/SIZE]Hebrews 10:17-18
[SIZE=medium]If we’ve received the sacrifice of the Son of God on our behalf, the payment of His blood for the remission of our sin, there is no longer an offering that we (or someone else on our behalf) can make for our sin. None of us were here when Jesus went to the cross to pay the price of our redemption nearly 2000 years ago, so we enter into His covenant by faith in His finished work and through submission to His will. With respect to God, the Father, we have entered into a Father/child relationship, not a jailor/prisoner relationship. The last is more like the one we had when confined under sin (and God was not our father). If we have received His Spirit by faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on our behalf, He has already promised to never leave or forsake us. When we choose to sin, we break fellowship with Him. He hasn’t left us, but we’ve chosen to abandon His will for us in favor of our own will. Confession of our sin to Him is then an admission of doing wrong for the sake of re-establishing the intimacy of our relationship with Him, knowing that He has already paid the price of our redemption with His own precious blood in the person of His Son. When we confess our sin to Him as His children we can renew our assurance of His love for us and in this draw near to Him. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Our job as it were, having once received Him, is to abide in Him, to walk in agreement with Him, bringing our own will into alignment with His own.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]This is what Jesus said about the matter: [/SIZE]27. "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.''
[SIZE=medium]28. Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?'' [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]29. Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.''[/SIZE] John 6:27-29
[SIZE=medium]Believing Him isn’t something that we do once and forget about, but is the ongoing process behind our sanctification. In this sense, believing that you will be condemned once you’ve received His forgiveness is sin, but the Lord always wants us to agree with what He says about us and about Himself, and He’s always working at drawing us nearer to Himself, not pushing us away. Yet the fear of condemnation keeps many away from Him, because their hearts are unbelieving.[/SIZE]
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
[SIZE=medium]This topic is not about Peter, but about the doctrines of grace (as opposed to doing works to establish a righteousness of your own.) [/SIZE]
You were the one trying to infer it will be easy for brethren to not be deceived by the false one of 2 Thess.2:3-4. What Paul explained there, and what my Lord Jesus said in Matt.24:23-26 shows differently. Many brethren will deny Christ with that coming false messiah, for they will THINK he is our Lord Jesus (remember Matt.7, and about the five foolish virgins of Matt.25?). That's the heavy point you've missed from the Scripture warnings of the coming Antichrist. And the fact that you're not aware of that specific 'level' of deception per the Scripture reveals you might easily be deceived by that false one that comes to play God in Jerusalem.

Michael V Pardo said:
[SIZE=medium]The Doctor that I mentioned in my original post stated that teachers of “hyper-grace” consider it sin to pray for forgiveness if a person has already received the gift of God’s grace through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. I’m not sure that I would go so far, but asking God to forgive you once He has already forgiven you could be called a sin of “unbelief.”[/SIZE]
IF you believe that mess, then shame on you if you ever... heed Christ's commandment on how to pray per Luke 11, because it includes a petition for forgiveness of sins!

And if you've REJECTED saying that prayer of Luke 11 as per our Lord Jesus, then just what else have you rejected from Him?

Best advice I can give is to distance yourself away from those so-called doctors of wisdom as far as possible, and get back to God's Word in simplicity.
 

michaelvpardo

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veteran said:
You were the one trying to infer it will be easy for brethren to not be deceived by the false one of 2 Thess.2:3-4. What Paul explained there, and what my Lord Jesus said in Matt.24:23-26 shows differently. Many brethren will deny Christ with that coming false messiah, for they will THINK he is our Lord Jesus (remember Matt.7, and about the five foolish virgins of Matt.25?). That's the heavy point you've missed from the Scripture warnings of the coming Antichrist. And the fact that you're not aware of that specific 'level' of deception per the Scripture reveals you might easily be deceived by that false one that comes to play God in Jerusalem.


IF you believe that mess, then shame on you if you ever... heed Christ's commandment on how to pray per Luke 11, because it includes a petition for forgiveness of sins!

And if you've REJECTED saying that prayer of Luke 11 as per our Lord Jesus, then just what else have you rejected from Him?

Best advice I can give is to distance yourself away from those so-called doctors of wisdom as far as possible, and get back to God's Word in simplicity.
The disciples prayer is an example of prayer as in "how we should pray," not something we need to repeat vainly like a parrot and it was given to those who hadn't received the Spirit of Christ yet. I'll recite it in mixed company at a funeral or wedding, but I speak to God in prayer, I don't recite poems and prayers that I was taught as a child. They were only intended to indoctrinate, not to communicate. The Lord and creator of all things is my adoptive Father, do you really think that He wants me to recite prayers by wrote that I've memorized from before I knew Him? I do find it helpful at times to pray through Psalms and make them my own, but the Lord is more interested in what comes out of our heart than what comes out of our memory.
I'm not inclined to take your advice, though if you understood what was already stated in the context of this topic, you would've seen that my perception is that the truth lies somewhere in between the two radically opposed views. Clearly I've provided more than enough scripture to prove beyond a doubt that salvation is a gift that we receive when we believe. Only cults try to make it something that you can lose and make God someone that can't be trusted.
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
The disciples prayer is an example of prayer as in "how we should pray," not something we need to repeat vainly like a parrot and it was given to those who hadn't received the Spirit of Christ yet.
Make all the excuses you want. But you won't be justified in it one bit.

And YES, Christ gave that prayer after His disciples ASKED HIM HOW... to pray. To make it plain to you, they were ALREADY believers and followers of Christ Jesus, the early foundation of the NT Church even!
 

michaelvpardo

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veteran said:
Make all the excuses you want. But you won't be justified in it one bit.

And YES, Christ gave that prayer after His disciples ASKED HIM HOW... to pray. To make it plain to you, they were ALREADY believers and followers of Christ Jesus, the early foundation of the NT Church even!
Good try vet. The Holy Spirit was with them, but not in them. I suggest that you read the gospel; according to John very slowly and the Acts of the Apostles. They might help you to understand.
 

veteran

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Michael V Pardo said:
Good try vet. The Holy Spirit was with them, but not in them. I suggest that you read the gospel; according to John very slowly and the Acts of the Apostles. They might help you to understand.
Nutty.