Covenant Relationships & the Bible as Literature

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Wormwood

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And that’s where I think you are making a foregone eschatological conclusion that limits every reference to Jesus returning in any way, shape, or form to only one particular eschatological event, the 2nd physical advent at the end of the world and the final judgment, and completely ignoring another eschatological event which was the end of the Old Covenant dispensation and the judgment on national Israel which also had eschatological implications.
No, not every reference. But certainly the ones that explicitly focus on final judgment that assigns the fate of individuals based on their works and the appearing of the glorified Christ with the heavenly host.

I disagree. I think spiritual discernment is precisely what Paul was talking about, as he points out, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned …”
Yes, he is discussing spiritual discernment. But the "us" and the "you" throughout the first four chapters is a contrast between the carnal Corinthians and the Spirit-revealed message of the Apostles. So, contextually, the "we" in chapter 2 is not talking about every believer, but the Apostles. Thus the "revelation" being spoken of here is the revelation given to the Apostles, not every Christian. The "spiritual" are able to discern such a message that has been revealed to the Apostles...not all of us. I'm just saying that you are taking a verse to apply to all believers when Paul is clearly referring to the revelation given to the Apostles in this context. We are not all Apostles and therefore we do not all have personal revelation of Jesus. Instead, the spiritual embrace the things the Apostles were taught by the Spirit. These verses have NOTHING to do with the Spirit giving personally inspired interpretations of the Bible. Such a thought is completely foreign to what Paul is discussing in these chapters in my opinion.

I’m afraid I don’t know where that came from, certainly I have never suggested that Jesus’ words quit having meaning after 70 A.D., nor would I. The question is what meaning did they have? My position is that they had far deeper meaning than just a far, far distant warning of judgment, but rather a much more immediate warning of judgment the fulfillment of which is stark proof of two things, that Jesus is indeed the Messiah, and to him has been given the power to save and to judge.
Well given the direction of our original conversation that referred to the "man of lawlessness" it would seem that these verses do cease to have meaning. If the "man of lawlessness" is a historical figure that brought about a rebellion that led to the destruction of Jerusalem, then the text is little more than a history lesson since we have lived past that event. Thus, the "comfort" Paul is striving to give to the Thessalonians has no real value to us today because, in your view, the man of lawlessness and the coming of Jesus he speaks of was a specific event that already took place. Likewise, if the coming of Jesus with his angels here deals with 70AD, then he already came and this verse does very little for us today other than to say, "Yep, he said that would happen." This text is so rich with final judgment imagery that if THIS doesn't speak of the Second Coming, I think we could dismiss any verse as finding previous fulfillment. Eschatology becomes nothing more than a matter of picking and choosing what we want the text to mean.

He does? Where?
“Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you): Only hold on to what you have until I come.” (Revelation 2:24–25, NIV84)

“Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.” (Revelation 2:5, NIV84)

“Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.” (Revelation 3:3, NIV84)

Here are a few examples of Jesus "coming" that refer to immediate judgment primarily while foreshadowing the second coming. Obviously these verses do not speak of the second coming. There is no talk of angels, glory, sky splitting open, etc. Rather, these are words of warning to historical churches that are being persecuted. It is clear that these cannot refer to the Second Coming as these churches no longer exist. I think the immediate judgment language is very obvious in these passages and similar passages are seen in the OT referring to the "day of the Lord." They are texts of immediate judgment for a local people that foreshadows a final judgment on a global scale.

Are you suggesting that “the Son of Man coming in his kingdom” was a reference to the transfiguration? Are you consistent in that?
I think that it is a likely rendering. Also it is possible that it is referring to Pentecost and the establishment of the Kingdom and the glory of Christ through the Spirit and the Church. It seems most scholars go back and forth on this. Very few I have read give any credence to the 70AD theory for this text. There is just nothing in the text to justify it. If your point is that anywhere we see this phrase that it must be referring to the same thing, then that is inaccurate. The context must be allowed to define any given phrase. The "day of the Lord" is not always the same event. For Joel it was a locust plague while for other prophets it was the Assyrians or Babylonians. In Revelation, its the Second Coming. Allow the context to define the phrase.

I believe what you are trying to say is that the Kingdom of God is not yet fully “manifest.” But the full manifestation of the Kingdom of God will not occur until the return of Jesus, when the dead in Christ are raised incorruptible and those who are alive and remain are instantly changed, what is commonly called the “rapture.” Paul teaches us that the whole creation groans in pain waiting to be delivered from the bondage of corruption that the whole cosmos became subject to when Adam sinned. But that won’t occur until the end of this old world, when Jesus returns and this present heavens and earth are burned up and all the corruption and decay along with it. The Kingdom of God will never be “fully manifested” in this old fallen earth, or in these old mortal bodies, but in the new heaven and earth, and in our glorified bodies. Romans 8:18-23
Agreed.
 

veteran

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Wormwood said:
As I have told you before, what I believe is far closer to what the church has believed throughout history regarding the end times.
No, that's not true. The early Christian Church was Premilennial, NOT Amilennial. The Amillennialists came from the Alexandria school in Egypt, and they did NOT represent the majority of the early Christian Church. Their ideas of Amillennialism actually came later after the early Church had already taken root in Jerusalem and Asia Minor.
Wormwood said:
What you are claiming has never been something the church taught until the 1800's. So if I am spouting "man's doctrines" as a old wineskin, then the entire church has been steeped in "man's doctrines" for 1800 years before the one with the holy interpretation of the end times, John Nelson Darby jumped on the scene...inspired by the fever dream of a sick girl. You are so numb to your own assumptions that it causes you to be mean-spirited and judgmental to everyone on this site who disagrees with you. Why don't you embrace some Christ-like humility and recognize that what you "think" about the Bible and what it actually teaches may be two entirely different things.
Again, that's where you are wrong, because the early Christian Church from the START... was Premillennial. And that's exactly what The Bible reveals for Christ's second coming too (like Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 with Christ's return after the tribulation but BEFORE the Milennial reign of Rev.20). NONE in the early 1st century Church held to views of Amilennialism. They were dominatly Premillenialists.

The doctrine of Amilennialism you're on flat denies the events of the Revelation 20 Scripture about Christ's future reign of a "thousand years". The early Christian Church did NOT... deny that event for after Christ's second coming. And the majority of the history of the Christian Church has been Premilennial for that reason, because of what is written in Rev.20 about Christ's future thousand years reign on earth with His elect (which is also written of in God's OT Books of the prophets - Zech.14 being one of the most obvious Scriptures).

FYI, I do NOT believe on John Darby's theory of a Pre-Trib secret Rapture prior to the Tribulation. Nor do I adhere to the doctrines of Dispensationalism that men created off of his doctrines. You ought to do your own research on these things instead of just buying into what those men on Amilennialism have been telling you. And when they willingly omit a whole chapter out of God's Word like they do with Revelaiton 20 (along with related Scripture in the OT prophets), then you ought... to know something is very wrong in their Bible teaching.
 

Wormwood

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veteran said:
No, that's not true. The early Christian Church was Premilennial, NOT Amilennial. The Amillennialists came from the Alexandria school in Egypt, and they did NOT represent the majority of the early Christian Church. Their ideas of Amillennialism actually came later after the early Church had already taken root in Jerusalem and Asia Minor.




Again, that's where you are wrong, because the early Christian Church from the START... was Premillennial. And that's exactly what The Bible reveals for Christ's second coming too (like Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 with Christ's return after the tribulation but BEFORE the Milennial reign of Rev.20). NONE in the early 1st century Church held to views of Amilennialism. They were dominatly Premillenialists.

The doctrine of Amilennialism you're on flat denies the events of the Revelation 20 Scripture about Christ's future reign of a "thousand years". The early Christian Church did NOT... deny that event for after Christ's second coming. And the majority of the history of the Christian Church has been Premilennial for that reason, because of what is written in Rev.20 about Christ's future thousand years reign on earth with His elect (which is also written of in God's OT Books of the prophets - Zech.14 being one of the most obvious Scriptures).

FYI, I do NOT believe on John Darby's theory of a Pre-Trib secret Rapture prior to the Tribulation. Nor do I adhere to the doctrines of Dispensationalism that men created off of his doctrines. You ought to do your own research on these things instead of just buying into what those men on Amilennialism have been telling you. And when they willingly omit a whole chapter out of God's Word like they do with Revelaiton 20 (along with related Scripture in the OT prophets), then you ought... to know something is very wrong in their Bible teaching.
Yes, most early Christians were premillennial. But they were not dispensational. What they believed is known as historic premillennialism, which is very similar to amillennialism with the exception that they believed in a literal 1,000 year reign. However, their views resemble nothing of modern dispensational premillennialism. They did not believe God's OT promises were still applied to national Israel nor the other hoopla that is often associated with the dispensational premillennials.

Also, the early church did believe in amillennialism. Amillennialism was most clearly espoused by Augustine (300s AD) but was certainly a view that was held prior to him. It was the official position of the church throughout much of history.
 

veteran

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Wormwood said:
Yes, most early Christians were premillennial. But they were not dispensational. What they believed is known as historic premillennialism, which is very similar to amillennialism with the exception that they believed in a literal 1,000 year reign. However, their views resemble nothing of modern dispensational premillennialism. They did not believe God's OT promises were still applied to national Israel nor the other hoopla that is often associated with the dispensational premillennials.

Also, the early church did believe in amillennialism. Amillennialism was most clearly espoused by Augustine (300s AD) but was certainly a view that was held prior to him. It was the official position of the church throughout much of history.
Premilennialism = Christ's return and then a "thousand years" reign prior to God's Eternity

Amillennialism = 'no thousand years'

=========================

It's obvious to anyone with common sense that the two terms have completely... different meanings.

Some later in the 2nd century A.D. began the Amillenialist ideas.


Revelation 20 mentions a period of a "thousand years" SIX TIMES. That Scripture declares Christ's reign for that time over the wicked ("nations" outside the "camp of the saints" of Rev.20). Each mention is linked to a specific event that cannot be figurative.

1. Rev.20:2 - the devil is to be bound for a thousand years.

2. Rev.20:3 - devil is bound so as to not be able to DECEIVE the nations for the thousand years, and then he is to be loosed to go deceive them.

3. Rev.20:4 - Christ's elect are to reign with Him for that thousand years.

4. Rev.20:5 - rest of the dead live not until after the thousand years.

5. Rev.20:6 - first resurrection in Christ to reign as priests and kings with Him for the thousand years, and cannot be subject to the later "second death" (lake of fire event).

6. Rev.20:7 - when the thousand years are expired, Satan is loosed to go deceive the nations one last time.


EVIDENCES THAT THE THOUSAND YEARS IS STILL YET TO COME

no.1 - the devil is NOT bound in chains in the pit just yet (John 14:30). Nor is the devil destroyed yet today.

no. 2 - the devil is STILL deceiving the nations TODAY. The height of his deception will be in the near-future tribulation time.

no.3 - we nor Christ are reigning over all His ENEMIES yet. This is one of the most obvious clues that Amillennialism is false. And this is a requirement per God's Word.

no.4 - the RESURRECTION is still yet to come! It has NOT happenned yet today. For the Millennium to have begun, the first resurrection is required to be manifest upon the earth reiging as kings and priests.

no.5 - the time for the "second death" is not yet today. It only becomes a literal possibility when the first resurrection manifests.

no.6 - for Satan to deceive the nations one last time after the thousand years as written, it requires Christ's second coming having already come to pass. Christ's second coming is still yet to happen.
 

Wormwood

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I referenced the history of Amillennialism in a different post for you veteran, so I wont belabor the point. As for your points...

1. Satan is bound - (Matt. 16:19; Matt. 12:29; 1 Jn. 3:8).
2. The Gospel message is unbound and frees all who respond. (Col. 1:23; Eph 5:14).
3. Those who endure in the faith and die in Christ are currently reigning with him. Right now. It is a picture of martyrs who currently reign with Christ because they have overcome the world (2 Tim. 2:12). Just because you cant see it doesn't mean that currently saints who have endured in the faith are not presently reigning with Christ.
4. The first resurrection has occurred for the believer. Christians are raised with Christ. (John 11:25-26,; Eph. 2:6; Col. 2:13, 3:1, etc).
5. The second death is final judgment. Those who have been raised with Christ/born again have no worry of this judgment (John 11:25-26).
6. Satan has been bound by the gospel. The good news of Jesus frees all who hear and are willing to respond. The devil is powerless to keep them shackled. It is quite possible that a time will come when the gospel will be greatly hindered from being proclaimed in the world. I think this is the likely meaning of this passage.
 

veteran

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Wormwood said:
I referenced the history of Amillennialism in a different post for you veteran, so I wont belabor the point. As for your points...

1. Satan is bound - (Matt. 16:19; Matt. 12:29; 1 Jn. 3:8).
1. Satan is not yet bound.
John 14:28-30
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for My Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you:
for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
(KJV)


The "prince of this world" is another title for the devil. Jesus said this for the time after His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension to The Father. That's the hereafter when He would not talk with them much anymore, which includes past the 40 days when He visited them after His resurrection, but before He ascended to The Father per Acts 1. Thusly, that is how Apostle John would remark they had already heard that "antichrist" would come. Christ had already forewarned them, even before He was delivered up.



Wormwood said:
2. The Gospel message is unbound and frees all who respond. (Col. 1:23; Eph 5:14).
True. And by remaining in God's Word with discipline, we become His disciples, and the Truth then makes us free. The Gospel without all The Word of God is 'milk', but The Gospel with... the "strong meat" of God's Word is true freedom and eternal life through Jesus Christ.

Wormwood said:
3. Those who endure in the faith and die in Christ are currently reigning with him. Right now. It is a picture of martyrs who currently reign with Christ because they have overcome the world (2 Tim. 2:12). Just because you cant see it doesn't mean that currently saints who have endured in the faith are not presently reigning with Christ.
Christ's promise that His Church would reign WITH Him is to have a literal fulfilment with Christ's return to this earth, His de facto Presence in Person, here on earth. He has not... established that specific reign just yet today, for He is to inherit the throne of His father David, an EARTHLY throne which The Father promised would continue unto all generations. I actually 'see' a great deal more than you could imagine, for I know where that throne of David is today, and it's not in Heaven with my Lord Jesus Christ. How then would Christ be reigning now, if He has yet to inherit David's throne? (Gen.49:10; Matt.19:28; Matt.25:31).

But those you... listen to, think to reign in Christ's stead and really don't WANT Him to return to this earth as written. Those foxes seek His Kingdom for theirselves. They will see it taken from them and given to others when Jesus returns in our near future.


Wormwood said:
4. The first resurrection has occurred for the believer. Christians are raised with Christ. (John 11:25-26,; Eph. 2:6; Col. 2:13, 3:1, etc).
There is a metaphorical resurrection within our spirit through believe on Christ Jesus, and then at Christ's coming there is a literal physical resurrection of our spirit so as to NEVER be able to die, ever. Can you... still die today, your flesh? YES, of course. Thus you have NOT experienced the "first resurrection" of Rev.20, for it is the LITERAL physical resurrection of the world to come.

The idea of a being raised with Christ per the Apostles is about the idea of our spirit during this present world inside our flesh being 'born again' of The Spirit through belief on Christ Jesus. The redemption of our body in the world to come is not yet today. Based on the doctrines of men that you've chosen to believe instead, I'd dare say you will be shocked when you experience that future change to the "spiritual body" of 1 Cor.15 at the twinkling of an eye.

Wormwood said:
5. The second death is final judgment. Those who have been raised with Christ/born again have no worry of this judgment (John 11:25-26).
Not what the implied second resurrection of Rev.20 is about. It is too deep for your understanding. You will have to wait and understand what the "first resurrection" is in the near future after Christ's de facto return.
Wormwood said:
6. Satan has been bound by the gospel. The good news of Jesus frees all who hear and are willing to respond. The devil is powerless to keep them shackled. It is quite possible that a time will come when the gospel will be greatly hindered from being proclaimed in the world. I think this is the likely meaning of this passage.
Satan and death were defeated by Jesus Christ when He shed His Blood upon the cross. But the devil is NOT... yet destroyed. The devil and his angels were judged and sentenced to perish of old, for Tophet (lake of fire metaphor) was prepared of old for their destruction (Matt.25:41; Isaiah 30:33).

The LORD still has prunning to do for this world. The devil is His prunning shears, and the shears won't be destroyed until all... the prunning is done, which includes a "thousand years" AFTER... Christ's second coming.
 

Wormwood

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Veteran,

Let me just say I appreciate your response in dealing with the text. We may disagree at points but I think we both have the same hope. Thanks for discussing this with me.

The "prince of this world" is another title for the devil. Jesus said this for the time after His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension to The Father. That's the hereafter when He would not talk with them much anymore, which includes past the 40 days when He visited them after His resurrection, but before He ascended to The Father per Acts 1. Thusly, that is how Apostle John would remark they had already heard that "antichrist" would come. Christ had already forewarned them, even before He was delivered up.
I agree that Satan is still active in the world. However, against the Christian and the Gospel, his is bound and powerless. The "binding" of Satan has to do with his ability to deceive whole nations and keep people enslaved and in the dark. This is the only thing Revelation 20 says is the result of this "binding." He can no longer deceive the nations. Currently, he is not able to deceive whole nations like he did during OT times. Even in North Korea, the Gospel is being shared underground and people are being saved.

True. And by remaining in God's Word with discipline, we become His disciples, and the Truth then makes us free. The Gospel without all The Word of God is 'milk', but The Gospel with... the "strong meat" of God's Word is true freedom and eternal life through Jesus Christ.
Well this comment looks like it has to do with Christian maturity, not whether or not the Devil is deceiving the nations.

Christ's promise that His Church would reign WITH Him is to have a literal fulfilment with Christ's return to this earth, His de facto Presence in Person, here on earth. He has not... established that specific reign just yet today, for He is to inherit the throne of His father David, an EARTHLY throne which The Father promised would continue unto all generations. I actually 'see' a great deal more than you could imagine, for I know where that throne of David is today, and it's not in Heaven with my Lord Jesus Christ. How then would Christ be reigning now, if He has yet to inherit David's throne? (Gen.49:10; Matt.19:28; Matt.25:31).
Yes I believe Jesus will reign on earth for all generations (and a millennium is not that). Those promises have to do with what we see in Revelation 21, not Revelation 20. However, Revelation 5:13 makes it clear to me that Jesus is currently on the throne and reigning and those who die in Christ have already overcome the world and are reigning in his throne room, anticipating the resurrection and their vindication.

There is a metaphorical resurrection within our spirit through believe on Christ Jesus, and then at Christ's coming there is a literal physical resurrection of our spirit so as to NEVER be able to die, ever. Can you... still die today, your flesh? YES, of course. Thus you have NOT experienced the "first resurrection" of Rev.20, for it is the LITERAL physical resurrection of the world to come.
Yes, there is a spiritual resurrection and a spiritual death. There is a physical resurrection and a physical death. Where in the Bible do you read of two physical resurrections that will take place at the end times? As far as I know, there is no teaching by Jesus or any of the epistles about two physical resurrections. There is one resurrection, the resurrection of the just and unjust on the Day of the Lord. So here we see two resurrections and two deaths. The "Second death" is clearly a spiritual death as it relates to the lake of fire. So why cant the first resurrection here be a spiritual resurrection? I think it fits quite nicely with the context in revelation as well as the overall teaching of the Bible. I look forward to the physical resurrection, but I don't think that is what this particular passage is talking about.

Not what the implied second resurrection of Rev.20 is about. It is too deep for your understanding. You will have to wait and understand what the "first resurrection" is in the near future after Christ's de facto return.
Oh come on. That's a cop out. Give me some reason to believe that this is speaking of a physical resurrection and that the Bible teaches elsewhere there will be two physical resurrections at two separate times. Otherwise, I don't think this has anything to do with my lack of depth. I think it has to do with understanding a consistent teaching of Scripture about the resurrection of the just and unjust on one day at the end of time.

Satan and death were defeated by Jesus Christ when He shed His Blood upon the cross. But the devil is NOT... yet destroyed. The devil and his angels were judged and sentenced to perish of old, for Tophet (lake of fire metaphor) was prepared of old for their destruction (Matt.25:41; Isaiah 30:33).
I never said Satan was destroyed. 1 John 3:8 is a poor translation by the NIV. Literally, it should read, "The reason the Son of God appeared was to render powerless the devil's work." Destroy is too powerful of a word for that Greek word. Clearly, Satan is not destroyed and will not be until the Second Coming. But his power has been stripped by the work of Christ on the cross and he has been cast down from his place in heaven as a result. I think that is captured very clearly in this passage:

“She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne. The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days. And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.” (Revelation 12:5–8, NIV84)
Jesus was the male child and when he was taken up to heaven after the resurrection, Satan was cast down...defeated by the cross. He is "not strong enough" and he is now bound by the work of Christ and the power of the Gospel.
 

veteran

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Wormwood said:
I agree that Satan is still active in the world. However, against the Christian and the Gospel, his is bound and powerless. The "binding" of Satan has to do with his ability to deceive whole nations and keep people enslaved and in the dark. This is the only thing Revelation 20 says is the result of this "binding." He can no longer deceive the nations. Currently, he is not able to deceive whole nations like he did during OT times. Even in North Korea, the Gospel is being shared underground and people are being saved.
The binding in chains in the pit of Rev.20 is different, which is what disallows his activity only during the future "thousand years". That one is in particular for those he deceived by his activity in today's time.
Wormwood said:
Well this comment looks like it has to do with Christian maturity, not whether or not the Devil is deceiving the nations.
Well, you were the one that brought up the idea of what makes us free.
Wormwood said:
Yes I believe Jesus will reign on earth for all generations (and a millennium is not that). Those promises have to do with what we see in Revelation 21, not Revelation 20. However, Revelation 5:13 makes it clear to me that Jesus is currently on the throne and reigning and those who die in Christ have already overcome the world and are reigning in his throne room, anticipating the resurrection and their vindication.
You've yet to discover how Rev.21 and 22 meld both Christ's Millennium time and then the later new heavens and new earth coverage together. Even Rev.22:14-15 with the wicked in existence outside the gates of the holy city with the tree of life manifested should have gotten your attention on that. Ezekiel 40 thru 48 does this same kind of coverage.
 

Wormwood

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The binding in chains in the pit of Rev.20 is different, which is what disallows his activity only during the future "thousand years". That one is in particular for those he deceived by his activity in today's time.
Yes, I understand that is what you think. But that does not make it so. Revelation says he is bound in chains so he cannot deceive the nations any longer. It does not say that he is bound in chains so that evil can be squelched, Israel can be exalted, or any of the things you cite in Zech 14 or other OT passages can come to pass. You are artificially inserting all these concepts into Revelation 20. However, Revelation 20 ONLY says that this binding disallows the deception of the nations.

Well, you were the one that brought up the idea of what makes us free.
Are you suggesting a person is not free from Satan unless they are mature believers?

Revelation is not written chronologically. It is not a series of events transpiring chronologically in time. Revelation is apocalyptic like portions of Daniel, where multiple visions depict the same events in different ways. In Daniel there is a statue, four beasts, and so forth that are similar visions/dreams of the same transpiring events that give different details of each.
 

veteran

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Wormwood said:
Yes, there is a spiritual resurrection and a spiritual death. There is a physical resurrection and a physical death. Where in the Bible do you read of two physical resurrections that will take place at the end times? As far as I know, there is no teaching by Jesus or any of the epistles about two physical resurrections. There is one resurrection, the resurrection of the just and unjust on the Day of the Lord. So here we see two resurrections and two deaths. The "Second death" is clearly a spiritual death as it relates to the lake of fire. So why cant the first resurrection here be a spiritual resurrection? I think it fits quite nicely with the context in revelation as well as the overall teaching of the Bible. I look forward to the physical resurrection, but I don't think that is what this particular passage is talking about.
Both the resurrection unto life and the resurrection unto damnation are two different types of resurrection, as per John 5:28-29. They both... occur at the same time at Christ's coming. Christ will come and separate His from the wicked as written in Matt.25 and that Rev.22:14-15 Scripture, and the Scriptures about those cast to the "outer darkness". Rev.20 aligns with that also, because the nations outside the "camp of the saints" are those outside the holy city of Rev.22:14-15. The Rev.22:14-15 verses are aligned with the events of Rev.20, not with the later new heavens and new earth time when all the wicked are no more.
Wormwood said:
Yes, I understand that is what you think. But that does not make it so. Revelation says he is bound in chains so he cannot deceive the nations any longer. It does not say that he is bound in chains so that evil can be squelched, Israel can be exalted, or any of the things you cite in Zech 14 or other OT passages can come to pass. You are artificially inserting all these concepts into Revelation 20. However, Revelation 20 ONLY says that this binding disallows the deception of the nations.


Are you suggesting a person is not free from Satan unless they are mature believers?
Only our spirit is free from the power of Satan during this world, because our flesh is still subject to the trials of this world. Do you deny this? If you do, then it would mean our Lord Jesus lied about some His sufferring tribulation, especially for the end of this world.

No, I am NOT inserting any artificial concepts into God's Word. I'm staying within it as written in simplicity using common sense.

In Rev.20 when Satan will be bound in chains in the pit, as written there, it is said to be so he cannot... deceive the nations for that thousand years period. Has there ever... been a time on this earth in this world when he could not deceive the nations? No, not yet, there has never been a time like that for this world. So there's no mistaking what that Scripture is revealing. You're having a hard time admitting that simply because the doctrine you're following won't allow you to. And the Rev.20 fact that he will be loosed one more time at the end of the thousand years... is further Biblical proof of Christ's future Millennium time prior to the new heavens and new earth.
Wormwood said:
Revelation is not written chronologically. It is not a series of events transpiring chronologically in time. Revelation is apocalyptic like portions of Daniel, where multiple visions depict the same events in different ways. In Daniel there is a statue, four beasts, and so forth that are similar visions/dreams of the same transpiring events that give different details of each.
What does that have to do with our discussion? I well know Christ's Revelation is not all chronological. That's how tradition teaches it though. Revelation is layed closer to how the OT Books of the prophets are than most of the NT Books. The OT prophets jump around in the timeline often, back and forth, requiring us to be disciplined in God's Word like Apostle Paul said to study. Even a section of Isaiah chapters is called the Apocalypse of Isaiah by some Bible scholars because of how it parallels the events of Revelation for the end. I even showed you this with the Rev.22:14-15 Scripture example. So you've not added anything of any weight to your argument.
 

Wormwood

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They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

So the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the second resurrection? This says one happens before the millennium and one after. It's very clear. It says nothing about "type." Looks to me like "first" indicates time, not type. You may need to do a verse by very commentary on your ideas cause right now what you wrote looks nothing like what the text actually says.. I'm not buying it.
 

veteran

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Wormwood said:
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

So the first resurrection occurs at the same time as the second resurrection? This says one happens before the millennium and one after. It's very clear. It says nothing about "type." Looks to me like "first" indicates time, not type. You may need to do a verse by very commentary on your ideas cause right now what you wrote looks nothing like what the text actually says.. I'm not buying it.
Why didn't you read the John 5:28-29 verses about the two resurrection types?? It's very simple. Why do you have others do your homework for you?

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto
the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)


"resurrection of life" = 1st resurrection of Christ's elect
"resurrection of damnation" = wicked (NOT a second resurrection)

How could you not know about that?

That phrase in John 5:28 about the "hour" when all in the graves "shall hear His voice" is a symbol for the "last trump" and "caught up" events of Christ's return and gathering of His and separation of the wicked.


So what two conditions do you have with the nations outside the "camp of the saints" (Rev.20) and those inside that camp? Same idea as the two TYPES of resurrection, one for Christ's sheep and one for the wicked. What about the Rev.22:14-15 separation? Same thing.

Most do not really know what the inferred second resurrection is. It is NOT a resurrection of the wicked at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign.

CLUE: since the "first resurrection" is unto everlasting LIFE through Christ Jesus, and we know the wicked are raised to the "resurrection of damnation" also at Christ's coming, and will dwell separate from His, the implied second resurrection is for... whom?? And when?? A problem many have with the "dead" of Rev.20:5 is not realizing that beginning in that future time, the ONLY type of death remaining is the "second death" of being cast into the "lake of fire". All, the goats too, will be resurrected at Christ's return as written there in John 5:28-29. The "dead" in that time are the spiritually dead (without Christ and The Holy Spirit renewing). That's how the Rev.20:5 "dead" is meant. It has... to be understood based on that future timing, not for today's timing. Flesh death is over after Christ's return.
 

Wormwood

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Vet,

Yes, I get it that the righteous an unrighteousness are raised and you understand that to be two resurrections. My point was, according to your interpretation of this verse, your explanation of the resurrection after the millennium is no real explanation at all. It looks like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

So, they came to life and reign with Christ for 1000 years (resurrection 1). The rest of the dead do not come to life until 1000 years is ended (since they aren't reigning with Christ, you see them as "goats." Right?). But you say the resurrection of the wicked is not a second resurrection...it occurs at the first resurrection (when the saints are raised to reign with Christ 1k years). So what is happening after the 1000 years? Your implication is the judgment after the 1000 years and the lake of fire is classified as a second resurrection. This seems like fitting a square peg in a round hole to me. Yes John 5 speaks of the resurrection of the condemned...the wicked are raised to life to face the second death (eternal punishment in my estimation). But this is an ACTUAL resurrection...dead coming to life. Yet according to you, the "second resurrection" of the wicked after the millennium is no resurrection at all. They were already raised prior to the millennium....they are simply being cast into the lake of fire. This is not the definition of resurrection!

My interpretation is much more consistent with what the words actually mean and the overall teaching of Scripture. The righteous are raised with Christ by faith (1st resurrection). Those who experience the first resurrection have no fear of the second death (hell) and they are with Christ reigning when they die in the heavenly throne room as depicted in Revelation. After the millennium (symbolic number for the period between the first and second coming of Christ), there is a resurrection of all people, and those who were not raised with Christ will be resurrected to eternal punishment. Very simple and consistent with all the NT teaching on the subject of the second coming, resurrection and judgment.
 

veteran

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Wormwood said:
Vet,

Yes, I get it that the righteous an unrighteousness are raised and you understand that to be two resurrections. My point was, according to your interpretation of this verse, your explanation of the resurrection after the millennium is no real explanation at all. It looks like you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.
No, not... two resurrections, but two TYPES of resurrection at the SAME time. Resurrection unto Life is one type, the resurrection of damnation is another type. That is what my Lord Jesus showed in John 5:28-29, and it's HIS CAKE that I'm eating, not man's cake.

Either you accept that John 5:28-29 Scripture as it is written, or... you've left the simplicity it is written in. There's no way to misinterpret those two very different types of resurrection He gave there with the same "hour".
Wormwood said:
So, they came to life and reign with Christ for 1000 years (resurrection 1). The rest of the dead do not come to life until 1000 years is ended (since they aren't reigning with Christ, you see them as "goats." Right?).
First statement yes. Second statement partially wrong.

Believing that the "dead" of Rev.20:5 remain unresurrected at Christ's second coming goes directly... against the John 5:28-29 Scripture. Believing that is an old tradition in the Church, and it is not correct.

When Paul revealed in 1 Cor.15 that as all have borne the image of the earthy, all shall also bear the image of the heavenly, that naturally includes the wicked also. That's who those "dead" are, the resurrection of damnation that also occurs at the time of Christ's return per John 5:28-29.

Just because John 5:28-29 is an obstacle to men's tradition of when the "dead" of Rev.20:5 are resurrected, it does mean to simply omit that John Scripture.

Christ showed this meaning also in Matt.25 about the sheep and goats. The goats would not be separated if they weren't raised at His coming too.
Wormwood said:
But you say the resurrection of the wicked is not a second resurrection...it occurs at the first resurrection (when the saints are raised to reign with Christ 1k years). So what is happening after the 1000 years? Your implication is the judgment after the 1000 years and the lake of fire is classified as a second resurrection. This seems like fitting a square peg in a round hole to me. Yes John 5 speaks of the resurrection of the condemned...the wicked are raised to life to face the second death (eternal punishment in my estimation). But this is an ACTUAL resurrection...dead coming to life. Yet according to you, the "second resurrection" of the wicked after the millennium is no resurrection at all. They were already raised prior to the millennium....they are simply being cast into the lake of fire. This is not the definition of resurrection!
An Outline appears necessary:

A. Christ's coming:
1. resurrection of life and resurrection of damnation occurs at same time.
2. Christ's sheep separated from the goats
3. Christ's sheep reign with Him as the 1st resurrection

B. 1,000 years
1. Christ's elect reign with Him over...
2. ... the resurrection of damnation or goats or dead (spiritually dead)
3. time of all enemies put under His feet (timing of Rev.2:9); these are the nations outside the camp, the wicked outside the gates of the holy city (Rev.22:14-15); those in the "outer darkness"
4. these goats will learn doctrine and understanding

C. 1,000 years end
1. Satan loosed one more time to tempt the wicked
2. fire from God rains down on the group of wicked that go up against the "camp of the saints" and destroys them
3. Satan cast into the fire

D. Great White Judgment
1. the remaining wicked, or goats, or "dead", stand before the Judgment Seat
2. any of their names NOT found in the Book are cast into the lake of fire with haides

E. The SECOND Resurrection (unto Life)
1. SOME of the wicked that turned to Christ during the 1,000 years
2. THESE have their names found in the Book
3. THESE changed to the Resurrection of Life through Christ

F. God's Eternity of the New Heavens and a New Earth


Might be difficult to grasp that because of how so many assume the implied 2nd resurrection is about literally dead people that aren't resurrected until after the 1,000 years. The "second death" isn't about flesh death.

God's consuming fire is going to end this present world at Christ's coming. That is when the 1st resurrection is along with the resurrection of damnation.

Like I tried to explain, for man on earth today people are in either one of 2 states. One's spirit either is a 'new creature' through Christ Jesus or still... 'dead', even while... both are living and walking upon this earth. No different after Christ's return, except all will have the "spiritual body" type Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

1 Cor 15:48-49
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
(KJV)


Exactly who is Paul's "we" there? Well, have the wicked borne the "image of the earthy"? Yes. Likewise they will also bear the "image of the heavenly" during Christ's 1,000 years reign. Afterall, what exactly is... the idea of 'resurrection', even for the wicked per John 5:28-29?

That's been many's problem, thinking the "spiritual body" Paul taught is only for those in Christ Jesus when He comes. It's just... a body type for the Heavenly, the "image" required for the Heavenly dimension, even for the goats.

What's different is, the condition of one's 'spirit' or soul that's attached to that "spiriutal body". Paul taught this also in 1 Cor.15, but in the Greek of verse 53.

1. the idea of bodies - "corruptible must put on incorruption"
2. condition of one's spirit - "this mortal must put on immortality"

Each one of those underlined words are 4 separate Greek words.

At Christ's coming:
1. Resurrection of Life = spiritual body of incorruption AND the mortal soul being made immortal
2. resurrection of damnation = spiritual body of incorruption AND still a mortal soul 'liable to die' the "second death"
 

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Very nice post Wormwood, thank you! Context is so important when reading the scriptures! When things are taken out of context, crazy doctrines start appearing in the churches, such as infant baptism, original sin, etc. Thanks again!
 

veteran

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There's good reason why the wicked will be taught by Christ's elect and stand in judgment throughout the 1,000 years. It's because they will include believers that fell away from Christ, and also those among the Jews that were deceived.

This is also why those must be tested by Satan being loosed one final time at the end of the 1,000 years.

This is also why their names must be compared to the Book of Life at the very end, to see if any of their names are found.

Otherwise, when Christ comes to gather His elect Church, there would be no need for that 1,000 years period at all. The dead (goats) would simply be all destroyed at His coming and Christ's elect would immediately go into God's Eternity. Yet that's not how the Rev.20 chapter is written, nor some of those Rev.20 events about the 'dead' which were first written in the OT prophets, and shown by our Lord Jesus with His "outer darkness" warnings.

There will be another separation at the end among the goats. Some of them will turn to Christ during that time. And that's who the implied second resurrection is about, a joining among the resurrection unto Life.

It is during this 1,000 years when the deceived of Israel will 'know' Christ Jesus is Lord, and will bear their shame during that period as written. They will bow to Christ then, along with those of the synagogue of Satan.
 

Pilgrimer

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Wormwood said:
No, not every reference. But certainly the ones that explicitly focus on final judgment that assigns the fate of individuals based on their works and the appearing of the glorified Christ with the heavenly host.
Hello Wormwood, and my apologies for the long delay in responding, I’m afraid sometimes life gets in the way of things I’d much rather be doing …

But let me ask you to take a look at your comment above and hear me out for a moment.

I think there’s something you are leaving out. The judgment and destruction that came upon the Jewish state in the generation of Jesus’ first coming was also a “final judgment that assigned the fate of individuals based on their works.”

It was the final judgment of the Law.

You know the Old Testament, and you know that it testifies that time and again Israel revolted from God and broke the Law they had covenanted with Him to keep. And time and again God judged and punished them to bring them back to Himself. But to no avail, after a time they would revolt once more, provoking God to say: “Why should ye be stricken any more? Ye will revolt more and more.” (Isaiah 1:5)

So there had been times in history that God had judged the Jewish nation, and even times when He had brought invaders to destroy the nation and take the people into captivity.

So the judgment and destruction of the Jewish state in 66-73 A.D. was not the only judgment of the Law against those under the Law, but it was the final judgment of the Law against those under the Law. Final because that judgment and destruction fulfilled the remaining jots and tittles of the Law and then the Old Covenant passed away.

The New Covenant fulfilled all the blessings of the Law, the judgment and destruction of the Jewish state fulfilled all the curses of the Law. Now that all the blessings of the Law, and all the curses of the Law, had all been fulfilled, every jot and tittle, now the Old Covenant could pass away.

The only judgment now that remains to man, any and all men, Jew or Gentile, is the final judgment of the Gospel, at the end of the world, at the 2nd Coming of Jesus, and salvation or condemnation will not be based on whether or not we have obeyed the Law, but will be based on this one thing … is our name written in the Lamb’s Book of Life?

So I think you are missing some important elements of the truth of all this when you try to limit “final judgment” to mean only one judgment, the judgment of all nations at the end of the world, and thereby ignore all the clear references to a “final judgment” of the Old Covenant Law, in the “last days” of the Old Covenant age, all of which was “imminent” for that first generation of the church, many of whom were Jews, but all of whom were eye-witnesses of that final judgment coming to pass, and who by obeying Jesus' warning escaped that judgment and destruction by fleeing when they saw the things come to pass they had been told would be signs that the “end” was at hand.

Wormwood said:
The "spiritual" are able to discern such a message that has been revealed to the Apostles...not all of us.
Oy vey! You say “the spiritual are able to discern such a message” and yet deny that there is any such thing as spiritual discernment for anyone other than the Apostles?!

Wormwood said:
Well given the direction of our original conversation that referred to the "man of lawlessness" it would seem that these verses do cease to have meaning. If the "man of lawlessness" is a historical figure that brought about a rebellion that led to the destruction of Jerusalem, then the text is little more than a history lesson since we have lived past that event.
I don’t think you really mean that. The Bible itself is a true and faithful record of the history of God and man, and within those accounts of historical events are lessons more deep and profound than any of us can ever completely understand. Paul wrote of the importance of these historical events recorded in the Scripture, and he said the very reason these things happened in history was to be “examples” for us and in fact “are written for our admonition (warning).”

So according to Paul the reason these historical events happened is to be examples and they are written in the Scriptures to be a warning to us. So how then can you suggest that because something written in Scripture was an historical event it therefore has no meaning for us?

And think about this for a minute, what more dire “warning” is there for all men of all nations of the sureness of the future and final judgment and destruction of all men than the past and final judgment of God’s own people? If those to whom the Word of God was entrusted did not escape judgment and destruction, what hope is there for those who deny God’s Word?

Wormwood said:
Here are a few examples of Jesus "coming" that refer to immediate judgment primarily while foreshadowing the second coming. Obviously these verses do not speak of the second coming. There is no talk of angels, glory, sky splitting open, etc. Rather, these are words of warning to historical churches that are being persecuted. It is clear that these cannot refer to the Second Coming as these churches no longer exist. I think the immediate judgment language is very obvious in these passages and similar passages are seen in the OT referring to the "day of the Lord." They are texts of immediate judgment for a local people that foreshadows a final judgment on a global scale.
I agree that there are verses which speak of the imminent coming of the Lord to judge a local people that foreshadows the final judgment on a global scale, but I think you are leaving out the most blatantly obvious example of it. What about the judgment and destruction of the Jewish state? Don’t you think that might be considered a foreshadowing of a final judgment on a global scale? Do you see any verses which spoke of that?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
veteran said:
The early Christian Church was Premilennial, NOT Amilennial.
That’s not true Veteran. Far from it. The millenarian view (the belief in a 1000-year physical kingdom) was adopted from Rabbinic Judaism which taught it even before the advent of Christianity, and to this day still teaches it, that the Messianic kingdom will be a physical kingdom lasting 1000 years with the throne of Messiah in Jerusalem and the Jewish nation ruling and reigning with Messiah over all the Gentile nations who will be forcibly brought to obedience to the Mosaic Law by the Messiah’s “rod of iron.”

That doctrine certainly has been around since the beginning of the church, it was around before the beginning of the church, but it is contrary to the Gospel but was pushed by Judaizers in the east and was introduced to the western churches by a man named Papias who was later branded a heretic for teachings that contradicted Scripture, such as his teaching that Judas did not in fact die as Matthew and the Acts state, but lived on afterward in a repugnant state.

Papias was later condemned as a heretic for this and other anti-Scriptural things he taught. And it should be noted that what he based his millenarian teachings on was not Scripture but on “unwritten traditions” he had learned.

But the majority of the early church was in fact anti-millenarian so your statement is simply not true. And after 250 years of persecution, when the church finally was able to turn its attention from surviving being arrested and tortured and killed and could concentrate on doctrine, two of the most controversial issues that were addressed by the Nicene Council in 325 A.D. was the divinity of Jesus and the proper time to observe Easter. But millenarianism was also a concern and that’s why the churches included the phrase “whose kingdom shall have no end” in the first universal creed of Christendom to counter the millenarian error of a limited 1000-year kingdom.

And for the record, as an A-millennialist, A-millennial does not mean “no thousand years,” it means “no thousand-year kingdom.” The Kingdom which Jesus Christ reigns over is God’s Kingdom, and it is an eternal kingdom that will last forever: “I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
Daniel 7:13014)

Jesus’ dominion will not last 1000 years, it is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is not an earthly, physical kingdom that will last 1000 years and then be destroyed when this present heavens and earth are burned up. Jesus’ Kingdom is a heavenly kingdom that will last forever and will never be destroyed.

The thousand years refers to the length of time that the saints reign with Christ. That’s the church age which has a limited period of time, after which the Lord returns (the 2nd Coming), there is a physical resurrection of all men, the wicked to damnation and the lake of fire, the redeemed to immortal life and a new heaven and earth …

And that’s the Gospel truth.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 

veteran

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Pilgrimer said:
That’s not true Veteran. Far from it. The millenarian view (the belief in a 1000-year physical kingdom) was adopted from Rabbinic Judaism which taught it even before the advent of Christianity, and to this day still teaches it, that the Messianic kingdom will be a physical kingdom lasting 1000 years with the throne of Messiah in Jerusalem and the Jewish nation ruling and reigning with Messiah over all the Gentile nations who will be forcibly brought to obedience to the Mosaic Law by the Messiah’s “rod of iron.”

That doctrine certainly has been around since the beginning of the church, it was around before the beginning of the church, but it is contrary to the Gospel but was pushed by Judaizers in the east and was introduced to the western churches by a man named Papias who was later branded a heretic for teachings that contradicted Scripture, such as his teaching that Judas did not in fact die as Matthew and the Acts state, but lived on afterward in a repugnant state.
You're mixed up in Revisionist history. When I speak of the 'early Church', I'm speaking of the time of Apostle Paul and the 1st century Church. The ideas of Amillennialism among a minority in the Church didn't even begin... until the later 2nd century A.D.!

Furthermore, Judaism claimed to look for Christ and an eternal everlasting fleshy kingdom at His appearance, and not involving just a 1,000 years.

Instead, they rejected Christ and had Him crucified, and the prophecy of His 1,000 years future reign would be SPECIFICALLY given to His Church through His Apostles. Judaism... does NOT RECOGNIZE Christ's Book of Revelation through His Apostle John! So I don't know where you're getting all the Revisionist mess from, but it's not accurate.
 

Wormwood

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Hello Wormwood, and my apologies for the long delay in responding, I’m afraid sometimes life gets in the way of things I’d much rather be doing …

But let me ask you to take a look at your comment above and hear me out for a moment.

I think there’s something you are leaving out. The judgment and destruction that came upon the Jewish state in the generation of Jesus’ first coming was also a “final judgment that assigned the fate of individuals based on their works.”

It was the final judgment of the Law.
That's okay. The same has been true of me. Life gets busy :).

Even if we grant that your assessment is accurate, you would have to admit that such interpretations are based on implications not expressly stated in Scripture. I think trying to connect Matt. 24-25 with 2 Thess and so forth is to do so out of a preconceived notion rather than on any explicit statement of Paul or other Scripture writers. Moreover, Isaiah and other prophets were very clear in their prophetic utterances about Assyria and Babylon in their role of exacting God's judgment for very specific behaviors (idolatry, injustice, etc.). It seems to me that if Paul's writing in 2 Thess were to be speaking of a specific revolution as indicating God's ultimate and "final judgment of the Law" that he would state such rather than using code and language of angels and second coming to make such an utterance. Paul does not seem like the kind of person who beat around the bush with his audiences.

Also, I would balk at the language of God's "final judgment of the Law." God does not judge his Law as there is nothing wrong with the Law. The Law is perfect and holy as Paul claims in Romans 7. The problem is not with God's law but man's weakness to keep the Law. The purpose of the cross was to provide a means of righteousness apart from law since none could be made righteous by law (again, not because of any fault in the law). The law will never pass away (Matthew 5). However, the purpose of the law is not to provide righteousness, but to point to Christ. I know you probably recognize all this, but I just think some clarification is in order because God's judgment is not aimed at law, but toward the rejection of his provision of righteousness in Christ.


Oy vey! You say “the spiritual are able to discern such a message” and yet deny that there is any such thing as spiritual discernment for anyone other than the Apostles?!
I don't think you are following me here. Yes, there is spiritual discernment that all believers can have. The point is not if anyone but the Apostles can be spiritually discerning. The point is that the "we" being used in this passage is talking about those who are imparting "secret and hidden wisdom from God" (1 Cor. 2:7). I know some on this board feel like they alone have secret and hidden wisdom from God (they know who they are, ha!), but this passage and its context is clearly talking about the Apostles...not all "spiritually discerning" Christians. Paul goes on to say in chapter 3, "But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people..." So the first personal pronouns in this context do not include the Corinthians. They are not part of the "I" or "we." Rather, they are the "you" who are not spiritual and therefore could not embrace the secret message of wisdom that many other spiritually discerning Christians received from Paul and the other Apostles.

I don’t think you really mean that. The Bible itself is a true and faithful record of the history of God and man, and within those accounts of historical events are lessons more deep and profound than any of us can ever completely understand. Paul wrote of the importance of these historical events recorded in the Scripture, and he said the very reason these things happened in history was to be “examples” for us and in fact “are written for our admonition (warning).”
True, perhaps my comments were a bit overstated. However, as much as I love incorporating the historical context and understanding the perspective of the original audience, I think we really strip the heavenly focus of the early believers if we seek to make every claim in the NT attributable to some immediate historical event. Again, I think Paul, of all writers, would be very explicit about 70AD if he was speaking specifically of the destruction of the Temple as the key event which signaled the end of the Old Covenant era. Rather, I think Paul's eschatology focused much more on the hearing of the Gospel as the moment when those under the old covenant were now held accountable by the new covenant message. And Paul indicates that the Gospel had been preached throughout the Roman Empire far earlier than 70AD. There is simply no text in the NT that suggest that 70AD marks such a transition. Its an interesting theory, but it cannot be more than that because there is simply no explicit text which would lead us to believe 1. that this covenant transition is the primary meaning of 70AD or 2. that Paul would employ eschatological language to refer to 70AD. This is mere guesswork in my opinion. Interesting, but little biblical evidence to support it.
 

Pilgrimer

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You're mixed up in Revisionist history.
Actually Veteran, I have been a life-long student of New Testament history and my views are based on my own study of the historical record. I’m afraid it is you who has gotten tangled up with a biased view of history that millennialists use to try to support their view claiming it is the historic view of the New Testament church. The truth of that is self-evident to you as you know what and who your sources are, and it’s not history, it’s men who are teaching you these views.

When I speak of the 'early Church', I'm speaking of the time of Apostle Paul and the 1st century Church. The ideas of Amillennialism among a minority in the Church didn't even begin... until the later 2nd century A.D.!
That’s not true Veteran. The doctrine that the kingdom Jesus came to establish is the Kingdom of Heaven is the whole point of the entire Bible. It’s what the Law foreshadowed, it’s what the Prophets foretold, it’s what the Old Covenant kingdom of Israel and Jerusalem and the temple and its sacrifices and observances all pointed to, and it is the only kingdom the New Testament teaches. Jesus himself said his kingdom is not of this world.

Jesus did not lay down his life to set up an earthly kingdom in Israel for the Jews, he laid down his life to open a Way into the kingdom of Heaven for all nations. Think about it brother, Jesus taught constantly about the coming kingdom, but not one time did he ever teach an earthly kingdom. The only kingdom he taught was the Kingdom of heaven. Go back and read the Gospels again, and don’t let the current popularity of secular interpretations of prophecy get you all tangled up in the error of a secular kingdom, the same error made by Rabbinic Judaism that caused them to miss the very promise they were looking for. The true kingdom, the one Jesus came to establish, the one Jesus taught, the one the New Testament church believed in, the one true Christendom has believed in for 1983 years, is not an earthly kingdom … its God’s Kingdom of Heaven.

Furthermore, Judaism claimed to look for Christ and an eternal everlasting fleshy kingdom at His appearance, and not involving just a 1,000 years.
Again, that’s not correct Veteran. A 1000-year physical, earthly kingdom that will precede the eternal state began as a Rabbinic Jewish doctrine even before the time of Jesus, and they still believe that to this day. It’s what historians call the “messianic expectation” of Rabbinic Judaism, and it reached a fever pitch during New Testament times. Rabbinic Jewish messianic doctrine had taught the people to expect a messiah that was vastly different from Jesus. They were and still are expecting a glorious warrior messiah who will “deliver Israel from her enemies” (foreign political domination), set up his throne in Jerusalem, and establish the Jewish nation to rule and reign over a restored Davidic kingdom, but on a global scale.

And when Jesus came to them, poor and humble, preaching repentance and forgiveness, even of your enemies, the Jewish authorities rejected him outright and flatly refused his message, even in the face of the wondrous things he taught and the many miracles he did. The fact that Jesus did not liberate Israel from Roman occupation, set up a throne in Jerusalem, and bring the nations into subjection to Jewish authority is why they rejected him and why they crucified him. He wasn’t the kind of messiah they were looking for based on their secular interpretations of prophecy. They wanted, and still want, the kind of messianic kingdom that millennialism envisions.

But the “earthly” messianic kingdom of millennialism was not what the Law and the prophets foretold, it was a false vision based on their own carnal interpretation of the Scriptures. Not only did that false vision lead them to crucify the Lord, it also led them to revolt against Rome and try to establish the kingdom they envisioned by the sword under the leadership of a series of false messiahs, and in that they fulfilled the Law and the Prophets and brought about the judgment and destruction of the Jewish state and the Old Covenant economy exactly as the Law and the Prophets, and John the Baptist, and Jesus and Paul all foretold.

The citations for a 1000-year earthly kingdom taught by Rabbinism are far, far too many to try to list, but here’s a link to the Jewish Encyclopedia from 1906, before the current popularity that millennialism is enjoying in the western evangelical churches so it is uninfluenced by the currently popular interpretations. It lists citations in the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the Talmudic literature but also a little bit about the history of the 1000-year earthly kingdom doctrine.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/10840-millennium

So you are very much mistaken when you insist that the idea of a 1000-year secular kingdom was the belief of the New Testament church. That was and still is the doctrine of Rabbinic Judaism and was the prevailing view at the time of Jesus, which is why the Jewish authorities rejected Jesus, and why the vast majority of the Jewish people reject Jesus down to this very day … because they are blinded by the glory of the earthly things of the Old Covenant, the old earthly temple and kingdom, which were glorious to be sure, but glorious as they were their glory is but a shadow compared to the glory of the heavenly temple and kingdom Jesus has established:

“But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be more glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, who put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.” 2 Corinthians 3:7-

So you see then that the majority of the Jewish people do not accept Jesus even today because they are blinded by the glory of the Old Covenant earthly temple and earthly kingdom, things which were done away in the days of the 1st coming of Jesus, but still the memory and the hope of them is what blinds so many of the Jewish people to the heavenly temple and kingdom which Jesus established at his 1st coming, of which he himself is the chief cornerstone, a temple and kingdom even more glorious than the shadows that were created to point to and teach about them. As a long-time student of the Mosaic Law I can, with the Spirit of God in Christ as my witness, state with all my heart that those old earthly things even today serve to teach us about all the heavenly blessings which we already have been given in Christ Jesus, things which no eye has seen or ear heard or man’s wisdom ever even imagined but which God reveals to us by His Spirit.

“At that time Jesus said, ‘I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.” Matthew 11:25

The Jews received the Law of God but the vast majority failed to look to Him to interpret it to them, and they were led astray by their own conceited interpretations. And while the evangelical church has from the very beginning recognized the insufficiency of our own righteousness, at least in theory, the greatest error of the nineteenth century evangelical church has been an overweening intellectual conceit which, in the case of interpretation of prophecy, is best summed up by the popular millennial teacher J. Dwight Pentecost, whom Dr. John F. Walvoord, President of Dallas Theological Seminary deemed the “father of modern millennialsm”: “If the literal meaning of any word or expression makes good sense in its connections, it is literal; but if the literal meaning does not make good sense, it is figurative.”(1)

Such a view makes the meaning of Scripture subject to “good sense,” or what the Scripture calls “mans’ wisdom,”
without the need of spiritual revelation, a point on which I am at disagreement with our brother Wormwood on this same thread. The need for and utter dependence on the Spirit of God for our understanding and knowledge is repeatedly testified to in Scripture, and notice what Paul prayed for regarding the Ephesians: “Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of his calling, and what are the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe…” Ephesians 1:15-19

It is God who gives us the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the rich and glorious blessings we have inherited, an inheritance which these secularists do not even begin to understand while they go about teaching the same old dust-and-ashes kingdom of their conceited interpretations that brought down the vast majority of the Jewish nation and excluded them from obtaining the very inheritance they were waiting for … God’s kingdom where Messiah Jesus sits on the throne of glory ruling and reigning over a kingdom they will never even see, let alone enter into.

“These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, abide in Him.”

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

(1) Things To Come: A Study in Biblical Eschatology, Chapter III: General Considerations in Interpretation, Part V: The Interpretation of Figurative Language, page 40.
I would balk at the language of God's "final judgment of the Law." God does not judge his Law as there is nothing wrong with the Law. The Law is perfect and holy as Paul claims in Romans 7. The problem is not with God's law but man's weakness to keep the Law. The purpose of the cross was to provide a means of righteousness apart from law since none could be made righteous by law (again, not because of any fault in the law). The law will never pass away (Matthew 5). However, the purpose of the law is not to provide righteousness, but to point to Christ. I know you probably recognize all this, but I just think some clarification is in order because God's judgment is not aimed at law, but toward the rejection of his provision of righteousness in Christ.
First let me say that the statement “final judgment of the Law” does not mean God’s law was being judged. It means the final time that those who had covenanted with God to keep the Law (Israel) would be judged by the Law.

And second, when I say the Law “passed away,” I don’t mean the Law ceased to exist. I have numerous copies, in several languages. And I love the Law, and have studied it for most of my Christian life.

But the Law as a means of being reconciled with God has passed away. Passed away in the sense that all those things which God provided to make it possible to keep the Law have ceased to exist. That’s what I mean, and that’s what Paul meant when he said, “that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.”


Even if we grant that your assessment is accurate, you would have to admit that such interpretations are based on implications not expressly stated in Scripture.
Oh not so, my brother! But I believe you simply read right over things that have a long and deep source in the Law and the Prophets that you are simply unfamiliar with. Perhaps, Lord willing, we’ll have time to take a look at some of them together.

I think trying to connect Matt. 24-25 with 2 Thess and so forth is to do so out of a preconceived notion rather than on any explicit statement of Paul or other Scripture writers.
You can assume that, but you would be wrong. We have only begun to discuss these things, I have many things I would like to share with you, but I assure you my beliefs are not based on implications and preconceived notions, but are very thoroughly grounded in Scripture, and particularly on the Law and the Prophets seen in the light of the Gospel.

Moreover, Isaiah and other prophets were very clear in their prophetic utterances about Assyria and Babylon in their role of exacting God's judgment for very specific behaviors (idolatry, injustice, etc.). It seems to me that if Paul's writing in 2 Thess were to be speaking of a specific revolution as indicating God's ultimate and "final judgment of the Law" that he would state such rather than using code and language of angels and second coming to make such an utterance. Paul does not seem like the kind of person who beat around the bush with his audiences.
Well why not back up and read how Paul began this letter:

“… we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power …”

Paul was clearly speaking to the Christians at Thessalonia who were enduring persecution and tribulation, and he was telling them that the Lord would recompense tribulation on those who were troubling them when he would be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels (revealed from heaven, not come from heaven, and angels are spirits, by the way) in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”

It is perhaps your own limited view that insists this language can only be talking about the 2nd coming, when clearly it’s talking not about Jesus physically coming from heaven (the 2nd coming) but talking about Jesus being “revealed” from heaven.

And also, at the 2nd coming it’s not angels that will accompany Jesus, it’s the saints that have died and gone to be with him who will accompany him at his 2nd coming: “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him …” 1 Thessalonians 4:15

The fact that you don’t associate apocalyptic language with the judgment and destruction of the Jewish state isn’t because it’s not there, but because you automatically apply it to the 2nd coming. But the Scriptures are filled with it. For example, John the Baptist spoke of this fiery judgment of Israel:
“But he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

John used a parabolic image that was very familiar to his 1st century audience. When grain was harvested, they brought the stalks of grain to the threshing floor and then beat the stalks to break up the straws and to loosen the grain. Then they would scoop up pitchforks full and toss it in the air. The wind would carry away the lighter pieces of straw (chaff) and the heavier grain would fall back onto the floor to be gathered up and brought to the storehouse. The chaff would be gathered up and burned. If there was no wind to carry off the chaff, fanners would stand around the floor waving palm branches to blow off the chaff. This was what John meant about Jesus “having his fan in his hand,” and that he would thoroughly purge his “floor” (an old metaphor for the land of Israel) and gather his wheat into God’s storehouse, but the “chaff” he would burn up with fire.

And mind you, John aimed this dire warning directly at the Pharisees and Sadducees who had come to hear him preach, saying, “O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee the wrath to come?” Matthew 3:7-12

So the Gospels and Epistles do in fact use apocalyptic language in talking about the judgment and destruction of the Jewish state, and in the context of the coming of Jesus, the first coming of Jesus, but when we have for so long viewed all this language as references to the 2nd coming it can be difficult to adjust our horizons and see things in a different light.


True, perhaps my comments were a bit overstated. However, as much as I love incorporating the historical context and understanding the perspective of the original audience, I think we really strip the heavenly focus of the early believers if we seek to make every claim in the NT attributable to some immediate historical event.
You tend to overstate quite often. I have never suggested that we “seek to make every claim in the NT attributable to some immediate historical event.” I have simply encouraged you to not seek to make every claim in the New Testament attributable to some distant historical event. Some apocalyptic language refers to the judgment in the last days of the Jewish state during the 1st coming of Jesus, and some apocalyptic language refers to the judgment of all nations in the days of the world at the 2nd coming of Jesus.

Again, I think Paul, of all writers, would be very explicit about 70AD if he was speaking specifically of the destruction of the Temple as the key event which signaled the end of the Old Covenant era.
Actually, Paul was very explicit about it, and taught more on the judgment and destruction of the Jewish state than he did on the final judgment and the end of the world. He especially wrote about it in Romans, for three straight chapters, repeatedly quoting the Old Testament and expounding on it. You have read it, I’m sure many times, but your read right over it and miss it.

And his letter to the Hebrews, to whom it most applied, he repeatedly drew on the Old Testament to warn them to not follow the example of their forefathers, “whose carcasses fell in the wilderness” (there is so much apocalyptic import to those few words). And he constantly juxtaposes the Christian Jews against those who rejected the Gospel: “For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which bearest thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.” And who can deny that Paul taught very explicitly that the Old Covenant was “ready to vanish away” and explained why. And it was in this letter that he wrote the passage which we have already discussed, about how it was foretold that God would “shake the heavens and the earth” so that the earthly kingdom would pass away and the kingdom which cannot be shaken would remain.

And in many other places and in many other ways Paul taught the judgment and destruction that was soon coming.

Rather, I think Paul's eschatology focused much more on the hearing of the Gospel as the moment when those under the old covenant were now held accountable by the new covenant message.
Again, perhaps an unfamiliarity with the Old Testament Law makes it difficult to see it, but let me show you how easily you can read right over apocalyptic language and not even realize it.

You know Paul is the one who taught that the Gospel was to the Jews first, and then to the Gentiles. That wasn’t just a theory with Paul, he actually practiced it. Every city and town and village he went to on his missionary journeys, he always went first the synagogue and preached to the Jews.

But one particular incident at Corinth perhaps expresses best the way Paul would use apocalyptic language that is easy for a student to miss without a strong familiarity with the Old Testament. I’m sure you know this story. Paul was pressed in the spirit to testify to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ, and when the Jews opposed themselves and blasphemed, Paul “shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.” Acts 18:5-6

That phrase, “your blood be upon your own heads, I am clean,” it had a lot of significance for the Jews. It was a well-known saying and it harked back to the Law of the Watchman.

“Son of man, speak to the children of thy people, and say unto them, When I bring the sword upon the land, if the people of the land take a man of their coasts, and set him for their watchman: If when he seeth the sword come upon the land, he blow the trumpet, and warn the people; then whosoever heareth the sound of the trumpet, and taketh not warning; if the sword come, and take him away, his blood shall be upon his own head. He heard the sound of the trumpet, and took not warning; his blood shall be upon him. But he that taketh warning shall deliver his soul. But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his inquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman’s hand. So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.” Ezekiel 33:1-6

So you see then how a phrase Paul uses can be loaded with Old Testament meaning but can pass right over our heads if we are not familiar with it. Just like Gehenna passes over the average Christian’s head because they do not know the history of the place. And how the “Supper of the Great God” in the Revelation passes over our heads if we do not know the source of such apocalyptic imagery.


There is simply no text in the NT that suggest that 70AD marks such a transition.
Yes, there is. For example:

“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.” Luke 21:20-22

It would be impossible to argue that this did not come to pass in 70 A.D.

“Lo, he taketh away the first [offerings of the law] that he may establish the second [the body of Christ]. Hebrews 10:9

Again, it would impossible to argue that the offerings of the law did not stop in 70 A.D.

“In that he saith, a new covenant, he has made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.”

It is impossible to argue that the Old Covenant things did not pass away in 70 A.D.

“Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken …” Hebrews 12:26-28

It is impossible to argue that the “things that were made” were not “removed” in 70 A.D.

“O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?” Matthew 3:8

It is impossible to argue that this was not speaking of 70 A.D.

“And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:11-12

It is impossible to argue that the “children of the kingdom” was not talking about the Jews and their being “cast into outer darkness” being excluded from the light.

“And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.” Matthew 10:15

It is impossible to argue that this was not speaking of the judgment and destruction of the 7-year war of 66 to 72 A.D. as the Romans destroyed every city, town, and village throughout the land in the war.

“Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves; be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues … But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over all the cities of Israel, till the Son of Man be come.” Matthew 10:16-23

It is impossible to argue that this was not fulfilled in the years before the cities of Israel were all destroyed in the war.

I can go on and on, but I think you get the point. There is far more about the judgment that was to occur in that generation than there is about the final judgment at the end of the world.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

No, not... two resurrections, but two TYPES of resurrection at the SAME time. Resurrection unto Life is one type, the resurrection of damnation is another type. That is what my Lord Jesus showed in John 5:28-29, and it's HIS CAKE that I'm eating, not man's cake.

Either you accept that John 5:28-29 Scripture as it is written, or... you've left the simplicity it is written in. There's no way to misinterpret those two very different types of resurrection He gave there with the same "hour".


First statement yes. Second statement partially wrong.

Believing that the "dead" of Rev.20:5 remain unresurrected at Christ's second coming goes directly... against the John 5:28-29 Scripture. Believing that is an old tradition in the Church, and it is not correct.

When Paul revealed in 1 Cor.15 that as all have borne the image of the earthy, all shall also bear the image of the heavenly, that naturally includes the wicked also. That's who those "dead" are, the resurrection of damnation that also occurs at the time of Christ's return per John 5:28-29.

Just because John 5:28-29 is an obstacle to men's tradition of when the "dead" of Rev.20:5 are resurrected, it does mean to simply omit that John Scripture.

Christ showed this meaning also in Matt.25 about the sheep and goats. The goats would not be separated if they weren't raised at His coming too.


An Outline appears necessary:

A. Christ's coming:
1. resurrection of life and resurrection of damnation occurs at same time.
2. Christ's sheep separated from the goats
3. Christ's sheep reign with Him as the 1st resurrection

B. 1,000 years
1. Christ's elect reign with Him over...
2. ... the resurrection of damnation or goats or dead (spiritually dead)
3. time of all enemies put under His feet (timing of Rev.2:9); these are the nations outside the camp, the wicked outside the gates of the holy city (Rev.22:14-15); those in the "outer darkness"
4. these goats will learn doctrine and understanding

C. 1,000 years end
1. Satan loosed one more time to tempt the wicked
2. fire from God rains down on the group of wicked that go up against the "camp of the saints" and destroys them
3. Satan cast into the fire

D. Great White Judgment
1. the remaining wicked, or goats, or "dead", stand before the Judgment Seat
2. any of their names NOT found in the Book are cast into the lake of fire with haides

E. The SECOND Resurrection (unto Life)
1. SOME of the wicked that turned to Christ during the 1,000 years
2. THESE have their names found in the Book
3. THESE changed to the Resurrection of Life through Christ

F. God's Eternity of the New Heavens and a New Earth


Might be difficult to grasp that because of how so many assume the implied 2nd resurrection is about literally dead people that aren't resurrected until after the 1,000 years. The "second death" isn't about flesh death.

God's consuming fire is going to end this present world at Christ's coming. That is when the 1st resurrection is along with the resurrection of damnation.

Like I tried to explain, for man on earth today people are in either one of 2 states. One's spirit either is a 'new creature' through Christ Jesus or still... 'dead', even while... both are living and walking upon this earth. No different after Christ's return, except all will have the "spiritual body" type Paul taught in 1 Cor.15.

1 Cor 15:48-49
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
(KJV)


Exactly who is Paul's "we" there? Well, have the wicked borne the "image of the earthy"? Yes. Likewise they will also bear the "image of the heavenly" during Christ's 1,000 years reign. Afterall, what exactly is... the idea of 'resurrection', even for the wicked per John 5:28-29?

That's been many's problem, thinking the "spiritual body" Paul taught is only for those in Christ Jesus when He comes. It's just... a body type for the Heavenly, the "image" required for the Heavenly dimension, even for the goats.

What's different is, the condition of one's 'spirit' or soul that's attached to that "spiriutal body". Paul taught this also in 1 Cor.15, but in the Greek of verse 53.

1. the idea of bodies - "corruptible must put on incorruption"
2. condition of one's spirit - "this mortal must put on immortality"

Each one of those underlined words are 4 separate Greek words.

At Christ's coming:
1. Resurrection of Life = spiritual body of incorruption AND the mortal soul being made immortal
2. resurrection of damnation = spiritual body of incorruption AND still a mortal soul 'liable to die' the "second death"

How about a much more simple explanation based on the Gospel.

1st Coming of Jesus
Salvation of Jews and Gentiles begins – spiritual resurrection of sheep
Judgment of Israel by the Law – goats cast out of kingdom into outer darkness

1000 years
Church Age – sheep reign with Christ

2nd Coming of Jesus
Redemption – saints physically resurrected/raptured to immortality
Judgment – wicked physically resurrected to damnation

Eternal State
Glorification – saints live forever in new heavens and earth