The second Death.. Did you know that there was one?

afaithfulone4u said:

Correct!
Rev 20:10
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
KJV
Rev 20:14-21:1
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
KJV

Eternal lake of fire meaning Hot Water with God for He remembers them NO MORE and they will be for eternity outside of God's presence and chained in eternal darkness(evil continually) NO REST!

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The beast, false prophet, and the devil, all fallen angels, are the only three beings in scripture that are said to await being tormented day and night forever. The Lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels.

But there they those who confuse this place with Hades. The torment that humans experience happens in Hades, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. This will last a minimum of 1000 years. In the first death, as Jesus described in Math.10:28, the body dies but not the soul. However, there is another death called the second death. In Math.10:28, the word for hell is not Hades, but Gehenna, which refers to the Lake of fire. In this next death, both body and soul are destroyed, as He states. In fact in this verse, He relates that a man cannot kill another man's soul, but God can. This is why we are to fear God. If God cannot kill the soul, the passage advises that we do not fear Him.

Why are so many willing to assume that angels and humans are effected the same way in the Lake of fire? We are not eternal beings. Our souls are not immortal, as the angels' are. Adam and Eve were denied access to the tree of life lest they eat of it and LIVE FOREVER (Gen.3:22). Living forever is a gift. It is not automatic for humans. This is also taught by Jesus in John 6:50,51, where he says that if one eats of His flesh, he will not die but live forever. Therefore by elimination, we can see that dying is not the same as living forever.

My point? In order for a human to live in torment, he must be alive. To experience conscious torment forever, one must live forever.

But if one's punishment is death, and this death is everlasting, then this death (cessation of life) would be an "everlasting punishment". It takes a whole lot of assumption and association to conclude from scripture that a man will be in forever conscious torment. On the other hand, even simple passages such as John 3:16, tell us in plain language that whatever perish means, it cannot be the same thing as everlasting (eternal) life. It must be something other than that. Maybe perish means what the word actually means (perish the thought ^_^), and not some made up version that they say applies in the bible only, as is also claimed concerning 'death' and 'destroy'.

The same goes for the other passages I have shared. In plain language, they contradict the conclusion that a man will be in forever conscious torment. The lost soul is not destined to live forever.

Oops
Accidental reply.

logabe said:

I've never heard it quite that way, lava in the center of the earth. You have a really good
imagination and an Old Testament mind-set.

I have a few questions about suffering (eternal torment), which you say is the second death?
Did Paul really know what he was talking about when he said in 1st Cor. 15:26,

26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Next question... How do you abolish death?

answer... by giving life.

Paul is saying @ some point death will be eliminated, but you are saying it will continue into
eternity. Will God take the curse from the ground (Gen. 3:17), or will He never forgive His
enemies (Matthew 5:44). Will He open the graves and set the captives free, or does He have
pleasure in tormenting His enemy forever? I need some answers... is God a loving and forgiving
God, or does He hold grudges. Which is it?

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

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Logabe,

Consider these scriptures.


Amos 9:2
2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

[SIZE=14pt]2 Peter 2:4[/SIZE]
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Matthew 11:23
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Hell is in side the earth in the lake of fire. It is in the lava.

How could a loving God put some one in hell to be tormented forever?

It is the choice of those that reject Jesus to go to hell.

Isaiah 61:8
8For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom!

The 2nd death is seperation from God forever not the death of the body.

The first death is the death of the body which will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment, when death and hell come and are cast into the lake of fire forever.

Eric E Stahl said:

Logabe,

Consider these scriptures.


Amos 9:2
2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

[SIZE=14pt]2 Peter 2:4[/SIZE]
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Matthew 11:23
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Hell is in side the earth in the lake of fire. It is in the lava.

How could a loving God put some one in hell to be tormented forever?

It is the choice of those that reject Jesus to go to hell.

Isaiah 61:8
8For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom!

The 2nd death is seperation from God forever not the death of the body.

The first death is the death of the body which will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment, when death and hell come and are cast into the lake of fire forever.

Click to expand...

The lake of fire is not Hades, as we can see a time is coming when death and Hades are cast into it. Hades cannot be cast into itself. As well, I take it you didn't bother to read my post (#41). There is no verse in scripture that says the second death is separation from God. This is nothing more than a contrived definition to support a conclusion already made. In Math 10:28, Jesus advised that we should not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. In the first death, as you say, the body is killed but not the soul, as Jesus also said. However, if God cannot kill the soul, then we are not to fear Him, as Jesus advised.

The question I have to you is...can God indeed kill the soul?

I caution you to not do what some have done and replied that He can but has no intention of doing so. That answer would render Jesus' words deceptive.

As well, eternal separation from God requires that the person will remain alive forever. This is a contradiction to John 6:50,51, where living forever is designated only to those who partake of Jesus. You have no basis on which you stand. Living forever was denied the human race when God separated Adam and Eve from the tree of life (Gen.3:22).

How can anyone actually seriously with a straight face claim that the second death is not really death at all?

williemac said:

The lake of fire is not Hades, as we can see a time is coming when death and Hades are cast into it. Hades cannot be cast into itself. As well, I take it you didn't bother to read my post (#41). There is no verse in scripture that says the second death is separation from God. This is nothing more than a contrived definition to support a conclusion already made. In Math 10:28, Jesus advised that we should not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul. In the first death, as you say, the body is killed but not the soul, as Jesus also said. However, if God cannot kill the soul, then we are not to fear Him, as Jesus advised.

The question I have to you is...can God indeed kill the soul?

I caution you to not do what some have done and replied that He can but has no intention of doing so. That answer would render Jesus' words deceptive.

As well, eternal separation from God requires that the person will remain alive forever. This is a contradiction to John 6:50,51, where living forever is designated only to those who partake of Jesus. You have no basis on which you stand. Living forever was denied the human race when God separated Adam and Eve from the tree of life (Gen.3:22).

How can anyone actually seriously with a straight face claim that the second death is not really death at all?

Click to expand...

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes, God can kill the soul if he wants to. But I don't see any scripture where he kills a soul.

Hades and all the souls in it, including the rich man, will be resurrected and called up to the great white throne judgment and be cast into the lake of fire. Death or the grave with all the sinners bodies will also be called up to the great white throne judgment and then be cast into the lake of fire.

Eric E Stahl said:

Matthew 10:28
28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Yes, God can kill the soul if he wants to. But I don't see any scripture where he kills a soul.

Hades and all the souls in it, including the rich man, will be resurrected and called up to the great white throne judgment and be cast into the lake of fire. Death or the grave with all the sinners bodies will also be called up to the great white throne judgment and then be cast into the lake of fire.

Click to expand...

So you admit then, that the soul is mortal. But think about why Jesus said to fear Him who is able to kill the soul. If He knew that God has no intention of doing so then He was deceiving them. You think He was advising them to fear God for doing something He isn't really going to do? You are only fooling yourself if you do.

But also to reply to your point that you don't see any scripture where He kills a soul. Not yet! The second DEATH will not happen until the great white throne judgment after the 1000 yr. reign of Christ. But there, God will destroy both body and soul. The word for hell in Math.10:28, is not Hades. It is Gehenna. This was a place in their time frame that is equivalent to our more recent versions of garbage dumps. In that place, refuse was taken and burned up. It was destroyed. The use of that term signifies the lake of fire, not Hades. Hades is the place of the dead who's body died but not their soul.

As well, the references in regards to living forever (or not) are even more compelling if you care or dare to consider the implications of them. That was also mentioned in the post that you replied to, remember? Got any wisdom concerning them?

Eric E Stahl said:

Logabe,

Consider these scriptures.


Amos 9:2
2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

[SIZE=14pt]2 Peter 2:4[/SIZE]
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Matthew 11:23
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Hell is in side the earth in the lake of fire. It is in the lava.

How could a loving God put some one in hell to be tormented forever?

It is the choice of those that reject Jesus to go to hell.

Isaiah 61:8
8For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom!

The 2nd death is seperation from God forever not the death of the body.

The first death is the death of the body which will be resurrected at the great white throne judgment, when death and hell come and are cast into the lake of fire forever.

Click to expand...

What is the Lake of Fire? What do you want me to get out of Isa. 61:8?

Logabe

logabe said:

I've never heard it quite that way, lava in the center of the earth. You have a really good
imagination and an Old Testament mind-set.

Click to expand...

Hell (or Haides) being in the center of the earth is from an old pagan belief; lot of the Charismatic churches have adopted it. Dante's Inferno also helped develop that superstition.

The abode of hell (not the lake of fire) where the "rich man" was taken after he died per Luke 16 is shown to be in the heavenly dimension, not our earthly dimension which would include inside the literal earth also.

lforrest said:

The Lord said to Solomon:
1 Kings 3:12 "Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given
thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee
before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee."

I often wondered does this verse mean Solomon was wiser than the Lord
Jesus? And have concluded yes it does, for the same reason you've stated.
Jesus only said what he was told by the Father.

Click to expand...

That's interesting. So you're saying, in so many words, that Jesus had to be
told what to say because he was too stupid to think for himself. Well; that
was actually true of Solomon.

†. 1Kgs 3:7-12 . . Now, O Lord my God, you have made your servant king in
place of my father David. But I am only a little child and do not know how to
carry out my duties. Your servant is here among the people you have
chosen, a great people, too numerous to count or number. So give your
servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between
right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of yours?

. . .The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this. So God said to
him: Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for
yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment
in administering justice, I will do what you have asked.

So then, Solomon's natural-born IQ was really not all that much to brag
about. However, if I were asked to compare the two men's intelligence by
what God endowed them, rather than by what they were born with; then
Christ comes off superior to Solomon.

†. Luke 11:31 . .The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the
men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of
the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon
is here.

†. John 3:34 . . God's Spirit is upon him without measure or limit.

†. Col 2:2-3 . . Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and
knowledge.

It's not that Christ was too stupid to think for himself; it's that he was a
messenger, and messengers are supposed to speak for those who send
them; not speak for themselves.

†. John 7:16-18 . . Jesus answered: My teaching is not my own. It comes
from Him who sent me. If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out
whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He
who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works
for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing
false about him.

Now, if I'm to take Gods words "there will never have been anyone like you,
nor will there ever be" to mean that Messiah's intelligence is somewhat
inferior to Solomon's; then maybe God should set Solomon over the future
kingdom instead of Christ. However, that would not be the smart thing to do
seeing as how Solomon can't be counted upon to be 100% faithful and true;
whereas Christ can be fully counted upon to be both.

†. Isa 53:11 . . My righteous servant

†. Rev 3:14 . .To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the
words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness

Buen Camino
/

Eric E Stahl said:

Logabe,

Consider these scriptures.


Amos 9:2
2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Matthew 11:23
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Hell is in side the earth in the lake of fire. It is in the lava.

Click to expand...

I consider it unwise to base one's theology exclusively on what one particular English version of the Bible says. Here is what I mean:

*

Amos 9:2 (NIV): "Though they dig down to the depths below, from there my hand will take them."

Amos 9:2 (ESV): "If they dig into Sheol, from there shall my hand take them"

Amos 9:2 (KJV): "Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them."

*

2 Peter 2:4 (NIV): "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a]..."

2 Peter 2:4 (ESV): "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell [a]..."

2 Peter 2:4 (KJV): "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell..."

The Greek word in the above verse translated as "Hell" is the Greek word "Tartarus", which is why the NIV and the ESV have a footnote saying that.

*

Matthew 11:23 (NIV): "And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades."

Matthew 11:23 (ESV): "And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades."

Matthew 11:23 (KJV): "And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell."