The Destruction of Damascus and Israel

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BLACK SHEEP

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May 24, 2013
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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
This makes me wonder what type of know-nothing clowns would make such a ridiculous claim that Isaiah didn't write all of his prophecies until 700- 680 BC.

We know for a fact that Isaiah was prophesying around 759-740 BC based on his statement in chapter 6 regarding the vision he saw in the that year King Uzziah died (759 - 740 BC). Prophecies are written when visions occur, not 40 - 60 years after the fact.

We also know for a fact that Isaiah was prophesying before King Uzziah died because in chapter 1 it says;

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. Isaiah 1:1

Why don't we do some research, Sherlock, and try to determine what theological school of thought, or person(s), came up with these untenable dates of 700-680 BC?

From Gill's commentary:


Gill seems to like the idea that Isaiah began to prophesy in the 23rd year of Uzziah. That would be somewhere between 782 - 763 BC, which is long before the destruction of Damascus in 732 BC.

2 Chronicles 26:22 referenced above says this:

Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last, did Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, write. 2 Chronicles 26:22

So it appears that Isaiah was quite familiar with King Uzziah.
Why don'y you stop with your incessant personal attacks. If you can't take the heat get out of the debate.

The book of Jeremiah proves that the total destruction of Damascus is a future event.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Jeremiah.html

Date of the book of Isaiah.
Most of the events referred to in chs. 1–39 occurred during Isaiah’s ministry (see 6:1; 14:28; 36:1), so these chapters may have been completed not long after 701 b.c., the year the Assyrian army was destroyed (see note on 10:16). The prophet lived until at least 681 (see note on 37:38) and may have written chs. 40–66 during his later years. In his message to the exiles of the sixth century b.c., Isaiah was projected into the future, just as Ezekiel was in Eze 40–48.
http://www.biblica.com/niv/study-bible/isaiah/

Date of Writing: The Book of Jeremiah was written between 630 and 580 B.C. HE ALSO PROPHECIED THE DESTRUCTION OF DAMASCUS ABOUT 100 YEARS AFTER ISAIAH DID!

http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Jeremiah.html

The Historical Time Frame of the book of Jeremiah.

Jeremiah prophesied during the administrations of five of Judah’s kings:
Josiah (639-608 B.C.)—31 years
Jehoahaz (608 B.C.)—3 months
Jehoiakim (608-597 B.C.)—11 years
Johoiachin (597 B.C.)—3 months
Zedekiah (597-586 B.C.)—11 years
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/747-marvelous-book-of-jeremiah-the

If Jeremiah also prophesied the Destruction of Damascus between 639 and 586 B.C. Doesn't it make you wonder why Isaiah's prophesy of Damascus destruction would already be fulfilled in Isaiah 17? Of course it doesn't make you wonder! That would debunk your theory right from God's Word!

Prophecy against Damascus.

Jeremiah 49:23 ¶Concerning Damascus. Hamath is confounded, and Arpad: for they have heard evil tidings: they are fainthearted; there is sorrow on the sea; it cannot be quiet.
24 Damascus is waxed feeble, and turneth herself to flee, and fear hath seized on her: anguish and sorrows have taken her, as a woman in travail.
25 How is the city of praise not left, the city of my joy!
26 Therefore her young men shall fall in her streets, and all the men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the LORD of hosts.
27 And I will kindle a fire in the wall of Damascus, and it shall consume the palaces of Benhadad.

2Ki 16:9 KJV - 9 And the king of Assyria hearkened unto him: for the king of Assyria went up against Damascus, and took it, and carried the people of it captive to Kir, and slew Rezin.

2 Kings was written in the 6th century. That too debunks your belief that Isaiah 17:1 is already fulfilled by the Assyrians!

http://youtu.be/YdC9pJ5t3LI
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Jan 6, 2012
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kaotic profit said:
Date of Writing: The Book of Jeremiah was written between 630 and 580 B.C. HE ALSO PROPHECIED THE DESTRUCTION OF DAMASCUS ABOUT 100 YEARS AFTER ISAIAH DID!
Which the Babylonians did no later than 572 BC in fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy. Excerpt below from New World Encyclopedia

Damascus was the capital of the Aramean Kingdom beginning in the eleventh century B.C.E. and was engaged in several wars against the Hebrew kingdoms of Israel and Judah. In 732 B.C.E., Tiglath Pileser II of Assyria claimed the city, a major conquest which later enabled the defeat of Israel and most of Judah. Later, Damascus was destroyed by Babylon.


kaotic profit said:
2Ki 16:9 KJV - 9 And the king of Assyria hearkened unto him: for the king of Assyria went up against Damascus, and took it, and carried the people of it captive to Kir, and slew Rezin.

2 Kings was written in the 6th century. That too debunks your belief that Isaiah 17:1 is already fulfilled by the Assyrians!
It doesn't matter when 2 Kings was written. What's it's documenting in these verses is the destruction of Damascus by the Assyrians in 732 BC. The destruction of Israel by the Assyrians followed soon after in 722 BC.



kaotic profit said:
Date of the book of Isaiah.
Most of the events referred to in chs. 1–39 occurred during Isaiah’s ministry (see 6:1; 14:28; 36:1), so these chapters may have been completed not long after 701 b.c., the year the Assyrian army was destroyed (see note on 10:16). The prophet lived until at least 681 (see note on 37:38) and may have written chs. 40–66 during his later years. In his message to the exiles of the sixth century b.c., Isaiah was projected into the future, just as Ezekiel was in Eze 40–48.
http://www.biblica.com/niv/study-bible/isaiah/
You're in total denial about this. You're just copy/pasting from websites.
 

BLACK SHEEP

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May 24, 2013
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The only way to prove my point with you is too show you what others also believe. We call it "verification!"

26 Therefore her young men shall fall in her streets, and all the men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the LORD of hosts.
This is happening today!

Why does the Lord specify about the timing of Damascus' destruction, similar to Isaiah 17, and say, "in that day?" Why is it that in the verse that follows the destruction of Damascus Nebuchadnezzar is said to smite Kedar? And for some reason for some reason He fails to mention Nebuchadnezzar as the aggressor about Damascus?

I do believe that many end-time prophecies have a partial fulfillment "then" and a complete fulfillment in the future.

The problem I have with verse 27 is that the word wall means to surrounded. Damascus wasn't burned to the ground by Nebuchadnezzar because I see no record of it. And not long afterwards the Persians took it and made Damascus the capital city of that province! Nebuchadnezzar never burned Damascus by a surrounding fire! Sounds like a nuclear weapon to me!

Then sovereignty passed into the hands of the Assyrians and subsequently to the Neo-Babylonians (Chaldeans) under Nebuchadnezzar in 572 B.C. Babylonian domination was cut short by the Persian king, Cyrus, who took the city in 538 B.C. and made Damascus the capital and military headquarters of the Persian province of Syria.
http://www.crystalinks.com/damascus.html

27 And I will kindle a fire in the wall of Damascus, and it shall consume the palaces of Benhadad.

Bill Salus said,

The ancient prophecy that predicts the total destruction of Damascus is the subject of considerable discussion among the prophecy buffs today with questions like:
1.) Has this prophecy already been fulfilled?
2.) Who is responsible for the destruction of Damascus?
3.) How quickly will it happen?
4.) When will it happen?
5.) What is the scope of the destruction beyond Damascus?

Some scholars, like Dr. Mark Hitchcock, believe this prophecy already found fulfillment around 732 BC, shortly after it was presaged in Isaiah 17, when the Assyrians conquered Aram. Aram was the ancient name for much of modern day Syria.
But if it was fulfilled then, why did Jeremiah 49:23-27 predict a similar scenario about a century later? And, why did Isaiah mention Assyria 37 times throughout his 66 chapters, but never once mention it in Isaiah 17. For instance Isaiah 8:3-7 clearly identifies an Assyrian conquest of Damascus. This found fulfillment in Isaiah’s lifetime, but Damascus still exists today.

Read the entire article here....
http://www.prophecydepot.net/2013/damascus-gets-destroyed-and-syrian-cities-are-forsaken/
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Jan 6, 2012
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From Gill's commentary regarding Jeremiah 49:27

Benhadad being a name of one of the kings of Syria, 1Ki 20:1; and which, according to Kimchi, was the name of the king of Syria at the time of the destruction of Damascus by Nebuchadnezzar.
 

BLACK SHEEP

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May 24, 2013
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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
From Gill's commentary regarding Jeremiah 49:27
That proves nothing other than prophecy was meant to fool you!

The only way to prove my point with you is too show you what others also believe. We call it "verification!"

I REPEAT!!!

26 Therefore her young men shall fall in her streets, and all the men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the LORD of hosts.
This is happening today!

Why does the Lord specify about the timing of Damascus' destruction, similar to Isaiah 17, and say, "in that day?" Why is it that in the verse that follows the destruction of Damascus Nebuchadnezzar is said to smite Kedar? And for some reason for some reason He fails to mention Nebuchadnezzar as the aggressor about Damascus?

I do believe that many end-time prophecies have a partial fulfillment "then" and a complete fulfillment in the future.

The problem I have with verse 27 is that the word wall means to surrounded. Damascus wasn't burned to the ground by Nebuchadnezzar because I see no record of it. And not long afterwards the Persians took it and made Damascus the capital city of that province!

Nebuchadnezzar never burned Damascus by a surrounding fire! Sounds like a nuclear weapon to me!

Then sovereignty passed into the hands of the Assyrians and subsequently to the Neo-Babylonians (Chaldeans) under Nebuchadnezzar in 572 B.C. Babylonian domination was cut short by the Persian king, Cyrus, who took the city in 538 B.C. and made Damascus the capital and military headquarters of the Persian province of Syria.
http://www.crystalin...m/damascus.html

27 And I will kindle a fire in the wall of Damascus, and it shall consume the palaces of Benhadad.

Bill Salus said,

The ancient prophecy that predicts the total destruction of Damascus is the subject of considerable discussion among the prophecy buffs today with questions like:
1.) Has this prophecy already been fulfilled?
2.) Who is responsible for the destruction of Damascus?
3.) How quickly will it happen?
4.) When will it happen?
5.) What is the scope of the destruction beyond Damascus?

Some scholars, like Dr. Mark Hitchcock, believe this prophecy already found fulfillment around 732 BC, shortly after it was presaged in Isaiah 17, when the Assyrians conquered Aram. Aram was the ancient name for much of modern day Syria.
But if it was fulfilled then, why did Jeremiah 49:23-27 predict a similar scenario about a century later? And, why did Isaiah mention Assyria 37 times throughout his 66 chapters, but never once mention it in Isaiah 17. For instance Isaiah 8:3-7 clearly identifies an Assyrian conquest of Damascus. This found fulfillment in Isaiah’s lifetime, but Damascus still exists today.

Read the entire article here....
http://www.prophecyd...s-are-forsaken/

IF ISAIAH DID IN FACT MENTION THAT DAMASCUS WOULD BE TAKEN BY THE ASSYRIANS IN CHAPTER 8, WHY DID HE HAVE TO REPEAT THE PROPHECY IN CHAPTER 17 WHERE HE DID NOT MENTION THE ASSYRIANS AS THE INVADING ARMY!?

HE DIDN'T MENTION THE ASSYRIANS OR REPEAT THE CHAPTER 8 PROPHECY IN CHAPTER 17 BECAUSE CHAPTER 17 IS A FUTURE FULFILLMENT!

Isaiah 8:4 For before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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Jan 6, 2012
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Gill's commentary Isaiah 17:1

Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city; a kingdom, as the Targum; it was the head of one, but now its walls were demolished, its houses pulled down, and its inhabitants carried captive; this was done by Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, 2Ki 16:9 it had been a very ancient city, see Gen 15:2 and the head of the kingdom of Syria, Isa 7:8, and though it underwent this calamity, it was rebuilt again, and was a city of great fame, when destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, Jer 49:24 after which it was raised up again, and was in being in the apostle's time, and still is, Act 9:22, 2Co 11:32.
Regarding Gill's commentary above, Targum Jonathan to the Prophets calls Damascus a kingdom, instead of a city, that will pass away. This, of course is exactly what happened.


Guzik's commentary on Isaiah 17:1

b. Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city, and it will be an ruinous heap: Damascus was one of the most beautiful cities of the ancient world, but the coming Assyrian judgment would reduce it to a heap of ruins.

Keil & Delitzsch commentary on Isaiah 17

The first turn: “Behold, Damascus must (be taken) away out of the number of the cities, and will be a heap of fallen ruins. The cities of Aroer are forsaken, they are given up to flocks, they lie there without any one scaring them away. And the fortress of Ephraim is abolished, and the kingdom of Damascus; and it happens to those that are left of Aram as to the glory of the sons of Israel, saith Jehovah of hosts.” “Behold,” etc.: hinnēh followed by a participle indicates here, as it does everywhere else, something very near at hand. Damascus is removed מעיר (= עיר מהיות, cf., 1Ki 15:13), i.e., out of the sphere of existence as a city. It becomes מעי, a heap of ruins. The word is used intentionally instead of עי, to sound as much as possible like מעיר: a mutilated city, so to speak. It is just the same with Israel, which has made itself an appendage of Damascus. The “cities of Aroer” (gen. appos. Ges. §114, 3) represent the land to the east of the Jordan: there the judgment upon Israel (executed by Tiglath-pileser) first began. There were two Aroers: an old Amoritish city allotted to the tribe of Reuben, viz., “Aroer on the Arnon” (Deu 2:36; Deu 3:12, etc.); and an old Ammonitish one, allotted to the tribe of Gad, viz., “Aroer before Rabbah” (Rabbath, Ammon, Jos 13:25). The ruins of the former are Arair, on the lofty northern bank of the Mugib; but the situation of the latter has not yet been determined with certainty (see Comm. on Jos 13:25). The “cities of Aroer” are these two Aroers, and the rest of the cities similar to it on the east of the Jordan; just as “the Orions” in Isa 13:10 are Orion and other similar stars. We meet here again with a significant play upon the sound in the expression ‛ârē ‛Aro‛ēr (cities of Aroer): the name of Aroer was ominous, and what its name indicated would happen to the cities in its circuit. ערער means “to lay bare,” to pull down (Jer 51:58); and ערער, ערירי signifies a stark-naked condition, a state of desolation and solitude. After Isa 17:1 has threatened Damascus in particular, and Isa 17:2 has done the same to Israel, Isa 17:3 comprehends them both. Ephraim loses the fortified cities which once served it as defences, and Damascus loses its rank as a kingdom. Those that are left of Aram, who do not fall in the war, become like the proud citizens of the kingdom of Israel, i.e., they are carried away into captivity. All this was fulfilled under Tiglath-pileser. The accentuation connects ארם שׁאר (the remnant of Aram) with the first half of the verse; but the meaning remains the same, as the subject to יהיוּ is in any case the Aramaeans.
Poole Commentary on Isaiah 17

It shall be a ruinous heap: this was fulfilled by Tiglath-pileser (Assyrians), 2Ki 16:9, although afterwards it was re-edified and possessed by another sort of inhabitants.
 

BLACK SHEEP

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Gill's commentary Isaiah 17:1


Regarding Gill's commentary above, Targum Jonathan to the Prophets calls Damascus a kingdom, instead of a city, that will pass away. This, of course is exactly what happened.


Guzik's commentary on Isaiah 17:1



Keil & Delitzsch commentary on Isaiah 17


Poole Commentary on Isaiah 17
I read every commentary you quoted.
Try answering some of my questions.

They are...

IF ISAIAH DID IN FACT MENTION THAT DAMASCUS WOULD BE TAKEN BY THE ASSYRIANS IN CHAPTER 8, WHY DID HE HAVE TO REPEAT THE PROPHECY IN CHAPTER 17 WHERE HE DID NOT MENTION THE ASSYRIANS AS THE INVADING ARMY!?
In other words...

Why did Isaiah attribute the destruction of Damascus to Assyria in chapter 8 and not attribute Damascus' destruction to Assyria in Chapter 17? Why did Isaiah have to repeat the prophecy he made in chapter 8 again in chapter 17?

I believe they are two different prophecies about Damascus!

Why is there a discrepancy in the dates? Why do the dates of the Assyrian invasion of Damascus (732 B.C.) conflict with the time of Isaiah's prophecy in chapter 17 (701-681) which date most people agree on?
Why do both Isaiah 17 and Jeremiah 49 both use the phrase "in that day" which often indicates the time around "the Day of the Lord?"

Why did Isaiah mention Assyria 37 times throughout his 66 chapters, but never once mention it in Isaiah 17?
Why would Isaiah say Damascus would cease from being a city when it still exist today and is the oldest continuously inhabited city on earth?

Why would Isaiah say in verse 7, "At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel."

Who is the holy one of Israel??

Isaiah 47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel .

Why would people look to his maker and have respect for the Holy one of Israel if Isaiah 17 was a record of the Assyrian invasion and not an end-time prophecy about Damascus? Is there some reason why people had respect to the "Holy One of Israel" after the Assyrian invasion?

There are several reasons why Isaiah 17 and Jeremiah 49 are not what you say they are!

Any answers???
 

Asyncritus

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Sep 8, 2013
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The meaning of the text in Isa 17 is extremely plain and unmistakable.

1 ¶ The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

Isa 17:3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the LORD of hosts.

This has never happened. Damascus is still there, it is still a city, and a pretty powerful one too, in Middle Eastern affairs.

Therefore this is yet future, whatever attacks have been mounted against it in the past.

When? This must be in the end times, when Israel is brought low again, as the context of verse 1 shows only too plainly.
 

SelectThis!

AlephBet - The Strong House of God
Nov 14, 2013
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On the Threshold
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
A literal translation of Isaiah 17:1-3 in the LXX is:

The word against Damascus. Behold, Damascus shall be lifted from cities, and will be for a downfall; being left behind into the age for a bed, and a resting for flocks, and there will not be one pursuing. And no longer shall there be a fortified place to take refuge there for Ephraim; and no longer a kingdom in Damascus, nor a remaining of the Syrians. For you are no better than the sons of Israel, even their glory; thus says the LORD of Hosts. Isaiah 17:1-3

History attests that the city-kingdom of Damascus was completely destroyed and the Syrians removed by the Assyrians as the prophecy says. Also, the prophecy restricts itself to Isaiah's era by the fact that it states that Israel (Ephraim) will no longer be able to use fortified Damascus as a place of refuge. Israel was destroyed 10 years after Damascus was, so this prophecy cannot pertain to anything after that.
Is this a misquote of scripture by design?
 

SelectThis!

AlephBet - The Strong House of God
Nov 14, 2013
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On the Threshold
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Instead of indulging in your ad hominem why not google the text to see where it comes from?
I referred to this: A literal translation of Isaiah 17:1-3 in the LXX is: Your link is NIV and your reference says it is from a literal translation. Google brings up the Apostolic Bible Polyglot English translation. Seemed confusing so I asked if you did this by intent. What do you like about this translation over the NIV? One of my favorite translations is the Orthodox Jewish Bible. There are terms in the original Hebrew that bring out so much more meaning if you do a word search.

17 The massa (burden) of Damascus. Hinei, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a heap of ruins.
2 The cities of Aroer are deserted; they shall be for adarim (flocks), which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.
3 The fortified city also shall cease from Ephrayim, and the mamlechah from Damascus, and the remnant of Aram (Syria); they shall be like the kavod Bnei Yisroel, saith Hashem Tzva’os.

A word search here brings out even more meaning to what you were saying, but it seems the city must be utterly destroyed to fulfill the prophecy. Ephriam is the Northern Kingdom. 1 Kings 11:26. Also, it is not simply the context of Israel and Ephriam to consider. Today, the highlands of Syria and the Armenians are key to the fulfillment in our day and age. They are in Israel today as refugees. Safe. I'm not saying your are incorrect, but there is more to consider here. We will only be able to connect the dots when we can look back. As I suggested in this post, it is always foreshadowing.
Hebrew tradition dictates this cyclic nature to prophecy.