Do we do as they do?

This Vale Of Tears · Sep 6, 2013

afaithfulone4u said:
It can not PREVENT you from deception, but if you are a true believer in ONE True God then are you double minded to think there is more than one?
Do you believe there are other gods? If you say no, then why should we pretend and what does that say to God about our faith? I hear of prayer meetings where all religions come together and they pray to their god and (SOME)Christians pray to their god(I say god because they can't possibly believe that there is one True God or they would not participate with idolatry) in hopes that one of the gods comes through with their prayer request.
There is a story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal coming together but you will see it was not to pray together... but to PROVE who was the True God. Here is glimpse of that account:
1 Kings 18:21-24
21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.
22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men.
23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under:
24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken.
KJV
I will let you look the rest up if you are not familiar with the outcome.
Do you know that when Jesus returns, there will be no Freedom of religion? All will worship The Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, King of the Universe and there is NO OTHER!! And how will that be? Because they are being separated right now as we speak and while man can not know the heart of a man... GOD CAN and He is not mocked.
Ex 20:3-6
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
KJV
Isa 45:22
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
KJV
Isa 46:9-10
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
KJV
Zech 14:18-19
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
KJV
Rom 3:29-30
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
KJV

Again you posit that if I believe people can worship as they wish, I must believe there is more than one God. Then you proceed to throw scripture after scripture at this strawman. You go on with your bad self slaying all the dragons you conjure in your imagination!

afaithfulone4u · Sep 6, 2013

Dan57 said:
While its true that Paul oversaw executions, he was a legal representative appointed by the Sanhedrin and authorized to persecute Christians. So Saul was not operating outside of legal/religious law. God called Paul and redirected his misguided heart.

But while Paul repented, not everyone does. So imo, its not prudent for a Christian to automatically forgive a criminal who has no desire to turn from their ways and live a Godly life. Your assuming that the person raping your daughter wants your help, and your assuming that the terrorist slitting your throat has a conscience, but what if they only want to kill you? Letting violent people do as they please with the hope that they'll come around to Christianity by force feeding them inspirational music presents a reality that is very dangerous for society. Some people are just dangerous, commit evil, will never believe, and need to be separated from law abiding citizens.

"The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked" (Psalm 58:10).

I think you have misunderstood my OP. I am not ever saying that men should go unpunished for their crimes. I am saying that our work as Christian soldiers is not to wrestle with flesh and blood men, we fight in the spirit realm to cast out demons that cause men to sin. We are to bring the gospel of Peace, teaching sinful man how to renew their minds so the DON'T commit sin.

We need to let those who love the devils work of drawing blood from men to handle it and we are not to be standing on the side lines cheering the blood bath on either. We are to feel compassion on those captive to sin, just as Jesus was. NOW if one is defiant and rejects Christ and causes us harm we do not have to continue to bring the Word to them.. but we do not take any vengeance, for it is the LORD'S. Our stance is PEACE and non resistance just as our example Jesus did and all the martyr's did.

You know the verse that says To spare the Rod is to spoil the child? Well there are two layers to this.
One is the spiritual and the other the natural. The Rod is Jesus who is THE WORD and when you spare to raise your child up in the Word of God you spoil him for life. And when you spoil your child then in his life he will feel the Rod on his backside suggesting physical punishment all his life due to lack of discipline in his life. Some children you can talk to and they learn.... but others need to FEEL what you are trying to teach them. Discipline is not the same as Judgement. God is the one who is the Judge for again He knows the hearts and situations of all men.. we do not. We are to disciple them so that they hopefully don't go to the house of torment and hell.
All government are minister's of God even though we have not grasped that yet and we kill kings and those God has allowed to rule and reign in this earth. Policemen are to keep the peace by taking PHYSICAL action against those who disturb the peace.. They all work for God yet they may know nothing about God and they especially have no Word indwelling them. Yet they are those who have a willing heart to harm others. Not all people have a heart to do this. Yet these live stressful lives themselves because they are doing the work of the devil, who steals kills and destroys those of disobedient mindsets..... God allows this and that is their job. Read the account of JOB. God uses willing men to carry out His will and judgments upon disobedient man or to bless obedient men.. but we are to be being trained up as priests and kings according to the Bible as the temple of God, not tormentors of the physical flesh using a physical sword, but tormentors of the spiritual kind to burn that fallen flesh nature of the old man off with the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God.
Rom 13:1-6
13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
KJV

This Vale Of Tears said:
Again you posit that if I believe people can worship as they wish, I must believe there is more than one God. Then you proceed to throw scripture after scripture at this strawman. You go on with your bad self slaying all the dragons you conjure in your imagination!

I am sorry if you are offended by scripture... that is a funny way I have of showing what God says about the situation so it is not just my own opinion... as if His Word really matters HUH?
But seriously,
I am not saying that we can stop men from deception of worshipping false gods... I am saying that a true believer should not participate in entertaining these false gods nor hanging out as friendship with them.
Take America that God made Beautiful because she was built upon God's Word. But then she started allowing false gods to come in, selling her self and disrespecting God who made her so great and beautiful and powerful and living in abundance and peace so much that people truly are dying to come to her. She has sold out her God given land to build temples to other gods and allowed their followers to change the laws in our leadership to include their gods to have rights, even rights to THROW OUT the Word of God in our schools, courtrooms, government etc... and now she has mingled her offspring producing half breeds, meaning no longer children brought up in God's Word, but now have taken on the words of many other gods teaching her children to be disrespectful to God our Father and man, lawless, immoral, living in idolatry and MY God is a jealous God and I see His tribulations in America as she and her children are being shaken.
See, I do HATE EVIL, but God is the judge and His judgments are JUST. But we are to remain blameless.
I am Bold in the Word and will WHIP out that sWord of the Spirit every chance I get to fight spiritual wickedness... but I lay no physical hand on anyone or rejoice in no one who is suffering the torments of hell because I understand that they know not what they do. I love Peace. They suffer in their own strength trying to make their life better, yet they fail because they have no understanding of God who is LOVE and wants to do good to them not evil, but they can't grasp that.

Dodo_David · Sep 6, 2013

The execution of murderers and the incarceration of other criminals are functions of the State, not individual tasks.
God can require the State to execute murderers (as God does in Exodus 21:14) for the purpose of dispensing justice, while also requiring individual followers of Messiah Jesus to share the Gospel with murderers and other felons.

afaithfulone4u · Sep 6, 2013

Dodo_David said:
The execution of murderers and the incarceration of other criminals are functions of the State, not individual tasks.
God can require the State to execute murderers (as God does in Exodus 21:14) for the purpose of dispensing justice, while also requiring individual followers of Messiah Jesus to share the Gospel with murderers and other felons.

So are you saying it is the job of a man of God to execute sinners who murder like Moses and Paul did, then turn around and save souls at the same time? Cause I am not talking about it not being ordained of God for a carnal MINDED man to seek another sinner to die and getting excited about it even before they have all the facts of truth because that is what those of willing hearts do... I am talking about as a Spirit led Christian who's only weapon should be in his mouth.. being our sWord of the Spirit that fights the demons that cause our friends, neighbors, children etc.. to sin and cause them harm, loss, disease, sickness, torment, to murder because they can't break free from the devils grip, and to be cheering on those who come to salvation not their execution.

We should leave those who do not have the understanding of God's peace to do that kind of job... not those who follow Christ. In fact... look how Christ will fight those who when the GRACE period is up and God gathers the nations armies all around Jerusalem to destroy her, will deal with those who refused the love of the TRUTH and sought to destroy earthly Jerusalem at Armageddon or also known as the Great Supper of God/Marriage Supper of the Lamb:
Zech 14:12-17
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem(Saints who come with Christ who are looking down and speaking with the sWord in their mouth); and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
KJV

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God (MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB Armageddon);
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
KJV

veteran · Sep 6, 2013

afaithfulone4u said:
I mentioned nothing about evil people running the streets doing as they please and never did I say all sins deserve the same punishment. I said those being made holy as the body of Christ should not be the ones to lay hands on nor should they be gloating over a sinner getting is JUST DUES. Leave that to the ungodly who enjoy blood baths.
But are you saying that we should demand that all sin is judged as in an eye for an eye?

God's people are exactly those who need to be handing out God's judgments upon the wicked. Afterall, Christ's elect are to even judge the angels at His coming. Major injustices often happen when such judgments are left in the hands of the profane (they often release the wicked to keep doing it again).

Now this stuff about "gloating over a sinner" getting his just reward is not a point that even equates with God's judgments being exercised by His servants upon the wicked. Apostle Paul showed us in Romans 13 how the powers God has placed in the world handles that, and how those can also involve His people handing those judgments out. You have TOTALLY bypassed that understanding which is New Testament doctrine.

Just as trying to follow the laws and being a good citizen of whatever country one of God's people lives in is a duty in Christ, likewise is this matter is a duty in Christ Jesus also.

Trying to attach false assumptions of unholiness to it is just political ploy to try and prevent God's people from obeying God in this duty to judge the wicked according to God-given authority for rulers during this world prior to Christ's coming.

afaithfulone4u · Sep 6, 2013

veteran said:
God's people are exactly those who need to be handing out God's judgments upon the wicked. Afterall, Christ's elect are to even judge the angels at His coming. Major injustices often happen when such judgments are left in the hands of the profane (they often release the wicked to keep doing it again).

Now this stuff about "gloating over a sinner" getting his just reward is not a point that even equates with God's judgments being exercised by His servants upon the wicked. Apostle Paul showed us in Romans 13 how the powers God has placed in the world handles that, and how those can also involve His people handing those judgments out. You have TOTALLY bypassed that understanding which is New Testament doctrine.

Just as trying to follow the laws and being a good citizen of whatever country one of God's people lives in is a duty in Christ, likewise is this matter is a duty in Christ Jesus also.

Trying to attach false assumptions of unholiness to it is just political ploy to try and prevent God's people from obeying God in this duty to judge the wicked according to God-given authority for rulers during this world prior to Christ's coming.

This is the authority that Christ left for his holy body to have:
Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18.They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
KJV

I seen nothing about us judging the wicked just that they will suffer in life if the reject the gospel.

1 Cor 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
KJV

Those without God know not what they do for they are SICK in need of a GREAT PHYSICIAL whom is The LIVING WORD.
We are to judge those who SHOULD know better and cut them OFF from the body for if a member of the body causes offense, then that member be it a hand or foot or what ever position in the body of Christ we were placed, must be cast away so that the rest of the body is not defiled.
We are not even supposed to take brethren to court in front of the ungodly:
1 Cor 6:1
6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
KJV

Dodo_David · Sep 6, 2013

Once again, someone is confusing the duties of the Christian faith with the duties of the State.

Dan57 · Sep 6, 2013

afaithfulone4u said:
I think you have misunderstood my OP. I am not ever saying that men should go unpunished for their crimes. I am saying that our work as Christian soldiers is not to wrestle with flesh and blood men, we fight in the spirit realm to cast out demons that cause men to sin. We are to bring the gospel of Peace, teaching sinful man how to renew their minds so the DON'T commit sin.

Thanks for the clarification, I mistakenly presumed that you opposed punishment. When I was young, stupid, and nonChristian, I got into trouble for stealing. I learned my lesson and never stole again. But it wasn't Christian teaching/preaching that straightened my act out, it was 2 weeks in the Iron Bar Motel.... That's why I'm a firm believer that punishment is a necessary deterrent to crime.

veteran · Sep 7, 2013

Dodo_David said:
Once again, someone is confusing the duties of the Christian faith with the duties of the State.

It's recognized that too many today have a hatred of history study. I can somewhat understand why, because of all the Revisionism of history going on by Christ's enemies today. Below I will show how what Apostle Paul taught aligns with Christian history in the west...

Rom 13:1-7
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Firstly, Paul makes it very plain that our Heavenly Father Himself is Who establishes rulers in authority and power.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
(KJV)

Paul even calls these rulers established by God a "minister of God" in both for good, and for judgment against the wicked.

Now then, just exactly who... has that involved throughout the history of the Christian west???

Kings, queens, lords, magistrates, judges, governers, senators, sherrifs, etc.

And just what... rule of law did they, and do they still use primarily???

God's laws from His Word.

This is why there is a wood carving in the Supreme Court building in Washington, D.C., USA with a figure of Moses holding the stone tablets of the ten commandments. Those ten commandments used to be displayed publically in MANY courtrooms across the United States of America. Christ's enemies have been busy trying to get them all removed.

In a Letter to King James in the 1st Edition of the 1611 King Jame Bible, King James himself is titled "Defender of The Faith" (the Christian Faith). That is one of the DUTIES of the kings and queens divinely established in the western Christian nations. That's still the duty of Queen Elizabeth II of England today! They have the authority to issue pardons even, just as the U.S President does also, and governers, etc.

I realize a lot of us grew up watching probably too much TV and were subjected to a lot of propaganda that really took off in the '60's to today against rulers, police, etc. One can find a whole lot of anarchism within TV shows, movies, and books pushed by God's enemies here on earth (isn't there even a cable show called 'Sons of Anarchy' that present a wild-west form of judgments and punishment?). The theme of much of that is that you're 'cool' by resisting authority and the law ("What are you rebelling against?", a citizen asks a hell's angel type, and the response, "Whadda' ya got?")

IF you want to align yourself with our Lord Jesus Christ, then all that propaganda stuff needs to fall by the wayside, for it is not of Him.

Oh, and another thing. The early history of the United States of America had many Christian ministers that served in the RULE of LAW over our nation, as evidenced even by the lists and artifacts in the portico of the U.S. Capitol bulding in Washington, D.C.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=90

Also by the way, there is NO such clause in the U.S. Constition that declares separation of Church and State. That was an idea that some interpreted from the writings of Thomas Jefferson. Since that Wallbuilders website shows how President Thomas Jefferson himself attended Christian Church services at the Capitol building, he would have definitely not have done that nor allowed it if he ever had a separation of Church and State interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. Those who keep saying the 'separation of Church and State" idea are merely parrets that have latched onto something they've only 'heard' others say, and have not researched the facts themselves.

Dodo_David · Sep 7, 2013

Why would anyone find fault with Christians providing justice for crime victims?

afaithfulone4u · Sep 7, 2013

Dodo_David said:
Why would anyone find fault with Christians providing justice for crime victims?

I think that there is too much confusion as to my op.. I am not saying that sin should NOT be judged because that is what God ordained law enforcement for. I am saying that a Christians mission is not to do the punishing or the cheering the sinners destruction if we are in Christ, we are supposed to be the ones to shine the Light on the sins in a personal way, to bring them out of darkness in hopes of saving them BEFORE they reach the point of having to be punished.
We want our sins to be forgiven, yet we stand with the ungodly who do not understand that sin comes from UNCLEAN spirits, not the man himself, demanding revenge for their misguided deeds. It is a spiritual battle that we fight, not a physical one. Carnal man wants only to punish/sacrifice.. but Jesus said that God desires mercy/change of heart. We can sit around sinning and then sacrificing/suffer for it, then sinning then sacrificing/suffer for it, but God is trying to get us to LEARN to do right.. He does not want to have to pass judgment/curse us. He wants to bring us to a place/state of Him being able to Bless us.
That is why the Word of God is so important, because it teaches us how to live godly lives so that we can be blessed by God by entering into His Rest/Care and no longer struggling in life in our own misguided efforts that are not good for us and bring us to torment, night and day where there never seems to be no Rest.
I am not saying that we can SAVE ourselves by good works alone, because in our flesh there is no good and we can not receive the things of God to be saved without receiving Christ first, for only be being born again of the Spirit can we receive the Truth of the Word because without God's Spirit we are of the devil's and he is the one who blinds us from the truth and steals the Word from us
Luke 8:10-12
10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
KJV
.

veteran said:
It's recognized that too many today have a hatred of history study. I can somewhat understand why, because of all the Revisionism of history going on by Christ's enemies today. Below I will show how what Apostle Paul taught aligns with Christian history in the west...

Rom 13:1-7
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Firstly, Paul makes it very plain that our Heavenly Father Himself is Who establishes rulers in authority and power.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
(KJV)

Paul even calls these rulers established by God a "minister of God" in both for good, and for judgment against the wicked.

Now then, just exactly who... has that involved throughout the history of the Christian west???

Kings, queens, lords, magistrates, judges, governers, senators, sherrifs, etc.

And just what... rule of law did they, and do they still use primarily???

God's laws from His Word.

This is why there is a wood carving in the Supreme Court building in Washington, D.C., USA with a figure of Moses holding the stone tablets of the ten commandments. Those ten commandments used to be displayed publically in MANY courtrooms across the United States of America. Christ's enemies have been busy trying to get them all removed.

In a Letter to King James in the 1st Edition of the 1611 King Jame Bible, King James himself is titled "Defender of The Faith" (the Christian Faith). That is one of the DUTIES of the kings and queens divinely established in the western Christian nations. That's still the duty of Queen Elizabeth II of England today! They have the authority to issue pardons even, just as the U.S President does also, and governers, etc.

I realize a lot of us grew up watching probably too much TV and were subjected to a lot of propaganda that really took off in the '60's to today against rulers, police, etc. One can find a whole lot of anarchism within TV shows, movies, and books pushed by God's enemies here on earth (isn't there even a cable show called 'Sons of Anarchy' that present a wild-west form of judgments and punishment?). The theme of much of that is that you're 'cool' by resisting authority and the law ("What are you rebelling against?", a citizen asks a hell's angel type, and the response, "Whadda' ya got?")

IF you want to align yourself with our Lord Jesus Christ, then all that propaganda stuff needs to fall by the wayside, for it is not of Him.

Oh, and another thing. The early history of the United States of America had many Christian ministers that served in the RULE of LAW over our nation, as evidenced even by the lists and artifacts in the portico of the U.S. Capitol bulding in Washington, D.C.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/libissuesarticles.asp?id=90

Also by the way, there is NO such clause in the U.S. Constition that declares separation of Church and State. That was an idea that some interpreted from the writings of Thomas Jefferson. Since that Wallbuilders website shows how President Thomas Jefferson himself attended Christian Church services at the Capitol building, he would have definitely not have done that nor allowed it if he ever had a separation of Church and State interpretation of the U.S. Constitution. Those who keep saying the 'separation of Church and State" idea are merely parrets that have latched onto something they've only 'heard' others say, and have not researched the facts themselves.

You are absolutely correct.. there should be no separation of church and state. For they do go hand in hand, God's Word is what upholds the world and the reason this world is in a fallen state is due to the fallen carnal nature taking over and lowering our standards of living to that of Sodom and Gomorrah which is anti-Christ aka anti-Word. We no longer raise our children up disciplined in God's ways so that we don't need laws added upon one another for disobedience, lawless behavior.

When Israel asked to have a flesh king over them, it was because they couldn't hear the Voice of God and obey and thought if they had a man that had the same desires as they, that they could get away with more. But God warned them of what would eventually happen, how fallen man who did not have the image(attributes) of God dwelling in them, would lord over them by making them slaves for their purposes.
So God said, this is good, let the people have what they have asked for... for He wanted to let them see what it would be like to allow flawed man control over them, so they would learn like the PRODICAL son, that things were better in the Fathers house and eventually return to Him.
Kings and Priests are what we are being trained up to be, for that is the high calling of God. Priests are those who hear from God and keep the Word alive in the earth and kings rule the people with the Word of God as their foundation and with the guidance of the Priests who speak to God and teach of His will as an advisor. Just as king David listened to the seer and prophet of God.
We are now supposed to be ruled by the kingdom of God no longer of this world... yet a child of God does do what is right and obeys the laws as long as they are in line with God's Word and not contrary. Daniel showed us that! Even Joseph was a prophet to Pharaoh when he revealed the dreams by God's revelation and was given, BY GOD, the position of second in command.

veteran · Sep 8, 2013

Dodo_David said:
Why would anyone find fault with Christians providing justice for crime victims?

Or protecting the innocent?

The answer is simple. Satan's servants here on earth are determined to create chaos, anarchy, debauchery, deceit, and all manner of evil. God allows them to work during this world to test His people to see who we will follow. The more that evil is allowed to exist in our society the more it reveals who the majority of God's people are listening to and following. Many are busy trying to look and be 'cool' per Satan's standards to their own death and destruction.

afaithfulone4u · Sep 8, 2013

I will let carnal men carry out the vengeance towards others for that is what carnal man has always done because they have no understanding that if you are willing to kill the killers for your own reasons, you are the same as they are. Followers of Christ recognize sinful ways and stay far from doing them. But Jesus who is our example came as a Lamb... and it is only after the grace period is over and time for this earth age is up that he returns as a lion to destroy(using willing men's hands) all who refused the love of the truth, in exchange for the lie. We can only allow God to work in us personally, we can not speak for another man's heart... but we must try to reach them with the love of the truth. Thy Word oh LORD is truth!
Matt 5:38-39
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
KJV
1 Thess 5:15
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
KJV
1 Peter 3:9-11
9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
KJV
Rom 12:18-21
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
KJV
John 8:5-11
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
KJV

Matt 18:25-19:1
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
KJV

When there is no man who is willing to kill or return evil for evil for any reason, then is when all evil will have been destroyed.
Adam was not willing to be a killer, nor Eve willing to take vengeance upon Cain, not even God killed Cain for the evil he did to his own brother Abel. God just put Cain outside His presence of protection and care and let Cain wander the earth all alone. But God also made it clear that who ever kills Cain, shall suffer sevenfold. God can put us in positions and situations in life by turning up the heat being in constant torment, and He does use willing hearts to carry out His vengeance or even what we call natural disasters and plagues even all of His creation. But a man of God should not be the punishers. Our concern should be to raise up the dead in the Word so they can live and not die.
Gen 4:15
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
KJV

Remember that murder is not the unpardonable sin... calling the work of the Spirit, the work of the devils unclean spirit is! So to say a killer must be killed as in an eye for an eye... is not of our new covenant in Christ.
Mark 3:28-30
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.
KJV

veteran · Sep 8, 2013

afaithfulone4u said:
I will let carnal men carry out the vengeance towards others for that is what carnal man has always done because they have no understanding that if you are willing to kill the killers for your own reasons, you are the same as they are. Followers of Christ recognize sinful ways and stay far from doing them. But Jesus who is our example came as a Lamb... and it is only after the grace period is over and time for this earth age is up that he returns as a lion to destroy(using willing men's hands) all who refused the love of the truth, in exchange for the lie. We can only allow God to work in us personally, we can not speak for another man's heart... but we must try to reach them with the love of the truth. Thy Word oh LORD is truth!

You can push that Liberal Leftist Socialist bull but you will NEVER align it with God's Word as written, no matter how many Bible verses you use like fragments out God's Word for your own agenda.

Jesus speaking here...

Luke 22:35-38
35 And He said unto them, "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing?" And they said, "Nothing."
36 Then said He unto them, "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
(KJV)

I used to believe the same Liberal Leftist baloney on this matter that you do, until I studied God's Word for myself and quit listening to the liars pushing their Socialist one-world agenda of Disarmament and Pacification against the Christian West. I even started to recognize the REAL statistics of crime rates dropping where people were allowed to ARM themselves!

Dodo_David · Sep 8, 2013

Is the author of the OP suggesting that it is wrong for Christians to participate in the dispensing of justice in the civil arena?

afaithfulone4u · Sep 8, 2013

veteran said:
You can push that Liberal Leftist Socialist bull but you will NEVER align it with God's Word as written, no matter how many Bible verses you use like fragments out God's Word for your own agenda.

Jesus speaking here...

Luke 22:35-38
35 And He said unto them, "When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing?" And they said, "Nothing."
36 Then said He unto them, "But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
(KJV)

I used to believe the same Liberal Leftist baloney on this matter that you do, until I studied God's Word for myself and quit listening to the liars pushing their Socialist one-world agenda of Disarmament and Pacification against the Christian West. I even started to recognize the REAL statistics of crime rates dropping where people were allowed to ARM themselves!

Yes, we are supposed to sell our old garments to replace them with clean white garments, and the sword we are to purchase is the Word of God which is our sWord of the Spirit being our weapon that not only divides the family, but pierces to the bone and marrow of a man to cut away that old flesh man that has soiled his garment.
As you can see Jesus did not come as the knights Templar with swords of blood... but with a spiritual sword that separates the unclean spirits from God's man to cast out demons, heal the sick and raise up the dead to higher standards. And please take note of being told to carry a purse... the reason they need a purse is because a worker is worthy of his wages that the man of God should be receiving for that spiritual meal they feed the sheep.
Jesus speaking:
Matt 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
KJV
Matt 10:34-37
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
KJV
Now do you think that Jesus meant for us to kill our family members with a metal sword? Or do you believe he meant to whip out the Word of God which is our sword of the Spirit to the saving of our families?

Those who love their father or mother more than God's Word are not worthy of him.. In the beginning was THE WORD... are you unfaithful to the Word by loving any one or thing for that matter so much that you would deny the Word for them?

Jesus being our example can you please show me where Jesus pulled a metal sword on someone, anyone in the Bible and told us to do the same?

veteran · Sep 9, 2013

afaithfulone4u said:
Yes, we are supposed to sell our old garments to replace them with clean white garments, and the sword we are to purchase is the Word of God which is our sWord of the Spirit being our weapon that not only divides the family, but pierces to the bone and marrow of a man to cut away that old flesh man that has soiled his garment.
As you can see Jesus did not come as the knights Templar with swords of blood... but with a spiritual sword that separates the unclean spirits from God's man to cast out demons, heal the sick and raise up the dead to higher standards. And please take note of being told to carry a purse... the reason they need a purse is because a worker is worthy of his wages that the man of God should be receiving for that spiritual meal they feed the sheep.
Jesus speaking:
Matt 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
KJV
Matt 10:34-37
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
KJV
Now do you think that Jesus meant for us to kill our family members with a metal sword? Or do you believe he meant to whip out the Word of God which is our sword of the Spirit to the saving of our families?

Those who love their father or mother more than God's Word are not worthy of him.. In the beginning was THE WORD... are you unfaithful to the Word by loving any one or thing for that matter so much that you would deny the Word for them?

Jesus being our example can you please show me where Jesus pulled a metal sword on someone, anyone in the Bible and told us to do the same?

Another 'forked tongue' message is all you're pushing with that. I'd like to say I'd feel sorry for you if one of your loved ones ever becomes threatened by a mugger or murderer and you don't have the common sense nor intestinal fortitude to stand up like a child of God and defend them.

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