Doctrine vs Belief

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Eltanin

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I am member of several Christian sites, and I see a reoccurring phenomenon in almost all of them... Arguing over who is right and wrong.

So I want to know something.

How important IS doctrine? Has the majority of the Christian community really replaced God with biblical interpretation aka doctrine?
Can you accept Jesus as your Savior and example without following another man's, or group's, interpretation?
If I don't agree with your accepted interpretation of the Bible, do you think I am deceived?
 

biggandyy

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The only way to be able to understand Scripture is with doctrine. Perhaps some are ignorant of what doctrine actually is, I will provide a shorthand definition for your consideration:

Doctrine
(Gk. didaskalia [didaskaliva]). Act of teaching or that which is taught. The use of the term in Scripture, however, is broader than a simple reference to information passed on from one person to another or from one generation to the next. Christianity is a religion founded on a message of good news rooted in the significance of the life of Jesus Christ. In Scripture, then, doctrine refers to the entire body of essential theological truths that define and describe that message ( 1 Tim 1:10 ; 4:16 ; 6:3 ; Titus 1:9 ). The message includes historical facts, such as those regarding the events of the life of Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 11:23 ). But it is deeper than biographical facts alone. As J. Gresham Machen pointed out years ago, Jesus' death is an integral historical fact but it is not doctrine. Jesus' death for sins ( 1 Cor 15:3 ) is doctrine. Doctrine, then, is scriptural teaching on theological truths.

Doctrine is indispensable to Christianity. Christianity does not exist without it. The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes the value and importance of sound doctrine, sound instruction ( 1 Tim 6:3 ), and a pattern of sound teaching ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). The apostles defended the faithful proclamation of the gospel ( Gal 1:8 ). They formulated Christian faith in doctrinal terms, then called for its preservation. They were adamant about the protection, appropriation, and propagation of doctrine because it contained the truth about Jesus Christ. Knowing the truth was and is the only way that a person can come to faith. So the apostles delivered a body of theological truth to the church ( 1 Cor 15:3 ). They encouraged believers to be faithful to that body of information they had heard and received in the beginning ( 1 John 2:7 1 John 2:24 1 John 2:26 ; 3:11 ), that "faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints'' (Jude 3). Believers, in general, were instructed to guard the faith, that is, to stand firm in sound doctrine ( 2 Tim 1:13-14 ). Pastors in particular were admonished to cleave to sound doctrine so that they could be good ministers of the gospel ( 1 Tim 4:6 ).
Ok, that wasn't very shorthand, but something so important as to be considered indispensable to existence of Christianity should not be handled lightly or dismissively as others have attempted to do.
 

Eltanin

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There is more than one established doctrine in almost every religion, and they all started with men, believing that they were inspired by God, interpreting and convincing...

I don't dismiss doctrine, but I have come to the conclusion that many Christians have taken what they read in the Bible, what they think it means, and what others have told them it means, and substituted for actual relationship with God.

I don't think there is any one doctrine that has all the answers, but I will not presume to think that I do. Yet there are Christians telling other Christians they are going to hell, just because they are not on the same page when it comes to doctrine. In these instances, I have to ask myself if doctrine has become a false idol that has replaced the example and Light of Christ.
 
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biggandyy

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Those types are easy to deal with, simply wish they fare well where ever they may fare and put them out of your mind. They most often are neither inclined to discuss much of anything rationally or receptive of a different point of view divergent from their own.
 

Eltanin

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I would wish those type a fare well, but I am more concerned with those who have had the seed of fear planted because they are so scared that they choose the wrong doctrine...

I grew up in church, I was taught a doctrine, but when I became an adult, and it became necessary for me to go out into the world, I struggled for a long time with fear that I might be wrong and going to hell, because I might not have the right doctrine. I learned to allow the Spirit to open my eyes and help me focus on what I needed to so that I might find the purpose I was meant to.

Doctrine became secondary to relationship, but that wasn't necessarily what I was taught.

Growing up, I was taught to believe the Trinity or I didn't believe in God the right way, that you weren't saved without water baptism, and several other things that could spark major thread derailment... I was taught to believe that the symbols were as important, or more so, than what they symbolized.

Nowadays, symbols make or break certain doctrines.
 

biggandyy

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Most of those debates are intramural and worth having, after all iron sharpens iron. Those not willing to debate, merely proselytize their own position are the ones that need to watch from the sidelines lest their naval gazing in the shallow end of the theologic pool drown them.
 

aspen

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I tend to think that doctrine is most useful when it is internalized - unfortunately, it may not sound as pure as some people may want it to be when it is communicated by people who have internalized it.

We are saved by Grace, through faith in thought and action - doctrine give us understanding and a language to use to describe the process.
 

Eltanin

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A doctrine is a view point that has started as an observation and personal interpretation.

After the observation and interpretation was made by an individual, it was discussed over in a group, and others were then able to add their own personal thoughts on said observation and interpretation...
Some observations and interpretations were easier to come to and to agree upon than others.

Eventually, when the observation/interpretation had enough people agreeing upon it, it was considered doctrine. Doctrine is men's interpretation, and it IS important in helping us ask the questions that process important truths into our internalized faith and belief... But the fact is, doctrine is still man-made... Faith is of the Spirit.

All Christian doctrine accepts Jesus as The Way, The Truth, and The Life...This is the common thread of the Christian Faith. This is what ties us all who believe together. It is the peripherals that allow us to process this acceptance that everyone gets hung up on. It is the peripherals that distinguish between separate Christian doctrines. It is externalized doctrine that divides us.

I really love a good debate, and I agree that debating sharpens our minds and opens us to important questions we might not ever ask ourselves. I think, as a Christian, it is important for us to be humble and realize that we might not have all the answers, and even expect to be wrong on occasion. We are dealing with our selfish nature, and our selfish nature want to believe we are better than we believe ourselves.

There are allot of people who are very over-willing to take up sword against anything that they don't agree with, or that they view as false doctrine. They call people names, or make personal attacks in the name of the doctrine that they believe in. They claim they do it out of love, but no one that they are reprimanding feels loved because of it. The doctrine that these people believe in has become more important than the people they are trying to reach. Their personally accepted doctrine has become more important to them than the faith of anyone else. It has exited the realm of debate and entered the realm of vain argument and personal attacks... Is this not idolatrous behavior?
 
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Rocky Wiley

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Eltanin said:
I am member of several Christian sites, and I see a reoccurring phenomenon in almost all of them... Arguing over who is right and wrong.

So I want to know something.

How important IS doctrine? Has the majority of the Christian community really replaced God with biblical interpretation aka doctrine?
Can you accept Jesus as your Savior and example without following another man's, or group's, interpretation?
If I don't agree with your accepted interpretation of the Bible, do you think I am deceived?
How important is doctrine one lives under? Very important when it goes against the word of God. All we have to do is look back at history to see that people who have seen something in scripture, different from what they have been taught, began a new church. Did they have all the truth? No, but they did add to the truth they already had. The additional truth, came from God's word and should be accepted.

Is there additional truth being presented today? Certainly, how can we say that no one has all truth unless we can accept more of it.

The word of God started from men who took notes of what was said, but the bible was not available to the average man until it was able to be printed. The printed word made it easier for the average man to begin to study. We should not stop studying just because a church has a doctrine, for many doctrines becomes a snare to learning because it becomes a barrier to God's word.

Your pastor can not get you into heaven, you are responsible to God for doing that.

Be blessed.
 

Robertson

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One major issue with the thought process I see on this thread is a sole reliance on the Bible. It seems many think the Bible is the only source where truth can be found. The Bible is a good source, and though it has some errors of translation and many books left out of it thanks to the debates of councils, it can be counted on as mostly reliable. But what is scary is the complete reliance on an incomplete record. Did any of the ancient prophets ever solely rely on some written records? Nope. What did they rely on? Revelation from God and His Spirit. You must live to be worthy of having the Spirit of God in your life and He will teach you ALL THINGS! That's where the Bible comes in, it points you in a good direction on how to live according to the commandments of God and to enjoy the Holy Spirit. People who have the Spirit are full of light and truth. Those who live solely on the doctrines of men who interpret the incomplete Bible have what you mostly see here... just confusion and argument about who is right and who is wrong - and the light is not in them. Let them argue, but for us, we will follow the guidance of the living God through his appointed manner - the Spirit of the Lord. Amen.
 
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aspen

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Doctrine does not save us - that is for sure
 

Rocky Wiley

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aspen2 said:
Doctrine does not save us - that is for sure
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Every Church that has it’s own doctrine, has not Christ’s doctrine. If they did it would always agree with the doctrine of Christ. That is God’s word. Do you really know if your church’s doctrine agrees with the bible?

There is only one church who professes that the bible is their doctrine. Good for them! At least interpretation of scripture is open for debate.

Be blessed.
 

mjrhealth

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That is God’s word. Do you really know if your church’s doctrine agrees with the bible?
If anyone bothered to ask God, they would find He doesnt agree with a lot of what the bible says. Do you really think that God is so foolish as to give man a written word to follow knowing full well what we would do," religion". denominations, division, It is the Spirit that Gives life , the letter Killeth, but who need the Holy Spirt, He is old fashioned and requires Faith to follow when you can read a book and read what you want out of it.Thanks Robertson.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

So go to Him, and stop bandering around the bush.

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

In all His Love
 

Eltanin

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I think the Bible is a good starting point, but too many people rely solely upon it. Too many people trust other men's interpretations. Too many people are ignorant of the fact that the Bible they read hasn't been around very long compared to the age of the church.

What I am saying is, we are blessed to have access to the Bible, but it wasn't a necessary factor to be a Christian in the first 1000 years of the church. Now people put so much reliance upon the book, that they feel lost without it, yet early Christians, who, for the most part, only heard the letters when someone read them, and didn't have daily (or even monthly) access to them. In those days, there weren't sermons, there were readings. People tried to memorize what they were being read as it was being read because they couldn't read themselves. They learned and relied on what was revealed to them. People would gather together and discuss, but They were so devoted to Christ they would lay down their lives. They only had the Spirit to guide them. Yet we still consider them Christians.

Yet now, so many people use the Bible to judge others' qualifications to get to Heaven or Hell, based on the doctrines they have concocted out of what they have read and interpreted.... People spend more time pouring over letters written by men to other men as encouragement, edification, instruction, and rebuke, and create whole organizations based on how they read it. People spend time arguing who is right and wrong, whose interpretation is more correct, and how important it is to understand other men's revelations...

The Bible has effectively replaced reliance upon the Holy Spirit for many people. People don't know how to give personal advice to those who need their help and understanding, they just know how to quote endless verses... When people ask for honest, personal, and intimate conversation and feedback, many Christians can only say, "Let's see what the Bible says..."... They can't even lead people to a revelation of Christ without the good ol'e Roman road.

This is where doctrine has gotten us... Doctrine is supposed to be personal, it is supposed to be second to Spiritual revelation, symbiotic to faith, and something that we rely upon God to establish within us... Yet doctrine has become the more important factor that many people would judge Christianity today. Christians rely on their pastors to tell them how to read a verse; they rely upon translations written within the last couple hundred years and yet do not realize that the translation they are reading was translated by a man who had his own notions on how the book he was translating from was supposed to read; They depend upon their own knowledge to understand what they are reading, but give no thought to the history behind the book that they are reading from, or the history of the church that they belong...

Christianity has become very impersonal, a lot of this has to do with the importance placed upon doctrine as defined by the organization level, and upon the Bible as replacement for Relationship...
 

Wormwood

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It's hard to draw a one-to-one relationship between Christians 1,000 years ago and us today. Much of the issues you are dealing with, Eltanin, have to do with the repercussions of the Reformation and the concept of Sola Fide (Faith alone). In any event, it is important to understand that to read the Bible is to interpret it. No one is a blank slate and no one sees the Bible as if they are sitting on the heavenly throne (although some may act as if they have such a position on this site). Yet, what is clear in the Bible and in all of Church history is that there are acceptable interpretations and unacceptable ones. If I read the Bible and conclude that Jesus is a bullfrog then all my assessments of the Bible will be marred by such a foolish perception. Moreover, such a view certainly undermines any ability I might have to properly understand the Gospel and therefore be saved by it. Doctrine is certainly not "personal." I would argue that people didn't even think in such terms prior Decartes and the rise of modernism. People belonged to a community that held a certain perspective on life and meaning. This is true of Christians. If the term "Christian" can be reduced to anyone who reads the Bible and has a personal revelation of its meaning then it means nothing. A "Christian" could be someone who believes Jesus is a frog or a fraud based on their own "personal revelation" which everyone will claim was implanted in them by God (for instance, David Koresh). Christianity denotes a people with a particular view on the person and work of Jesus as depicted in the Bible. You cannot have "relationship" apart from revelation in God's Word. How did you come to know who Jesus was apart from the revelation of himself by his Word (either by your reading or someone sharing the message with you?). Unfortunately, we are all bound by doctrine... but as indicated by other posts, the Bible recognizes this and shows the importance of having accurate doctrine on issues crucial to the nature of Jesus and the Gospel.
 
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aspen

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Wormwood - I really enjoyed reading your thoughtful post. I agree with you, we are always subject to interpretation of the Bible when we read it.
 

Eltanin

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Interpretation is important. Spiritual revelation is more so... I am not saying that it is not important, but I am trying to say that more emphasis is put on understanding what the Bible says than doing what is understood needs to be done. People read the Bible everyday, but they don't practice love, charity, or faith.

I think faith is more important than the Book, but I believe the Bible is a wonderful blessing that God allowed to us. I believe it is important to weigh our own understanding through questioning, comparing, and studying when we can. Yet, I don't think the Bible or denomination is as important as many people make it out to be. I wouldn't trade my Bible for anything, but I don't rely on it to be my faith, but to help my faith.

I am concerned that there are so many Christians who take their own interpretation and then deem themselves judge and jury as to other Christians path to the afterlife... They use their Bible quoting skills instead of fostering caring relationships with non-believers. They expect their doctrine to be so solid that they can talk to a person who does not believe in the Bible using quotes from a book they not not believe in, and the person they are witnessing to will suddenly believe in the Bible.

They go to church and listen to what the speaker has to say, and they agree without ever knowing the long history of why they are hearing what they are hearing. Not many people know the individuals who first argued about the validity of Trinitarian thinking; the men who first taught that there is a singular devil/satan, and his name is Lucifer; why we go to church on the first day of the week instead of the seventh: or even how the word for homosexual that we read in today's English version actually evolved from two words used by Paul that are not completely understood now, but actually seem to have roots of words that had been used in Leviticus in regards to temple prostitution, and pedophilia between men and boys.

If a speaker that they respect says so, it must be so, because they trust the speaker. If they read it in English in a book that says Bible, then they feel they understand exactly what the writer is saying.

You are correct, Wormwood, that it is hard to relate to Christians 1,000 years ago. We are very blessed to have opportunities of education, fellowship, and comfort that they did not have.... and with the knowledge, we are more accountable to what we do with it... Yet many people lay our accountability upon what we read. Most people today, do not understand why what we read today is in the form it is in. They will trust words written on paper more than they will trust the Holy Spirit dealing directly with them.

Yet, on the opposite side of that coin, the way the books and letters in the Bible were written, were written in a way that applied to people thousands of years ago. Yet, we try to abide by the ideas that Christians 1,000 plus years ago were governed by, usually on the premise that "God doesn't change..."

The Hebrews didn't have much use in their language for abstract thought. Their books were written with terms that denoted literal and tangible concepts. Ideas such as love, wisdom, and praise were denoted as verbs, or actions. The New Testament would have been nearly impossible to write in the Hebrew of Moses' time because it deals very much with acceptance and love, two abstract ideas by comparison to old Hebrew. Yet because we are meant to read the OT as literal, people try to continue reading the NT in the same manner and have issues because they are trying to remedy contradictions in their own understandings.

I do believe that there are good and bad interpretations. That goes without saying. As long as humanity has a part in anything, it will be flawed, until God Himself corrects this, but I think that it is important for us to remain humble and understand that no man or denomination is going to have a complete understanding of what is in the Bible. I think we need to put doctrine back in its place, behind a personal relationship with God, behind agape, and use it as to help us along in our understanding, not as the definition of who we are.

Christ should be the definition of who we are. We should be marked and recognized by our likeness to Him, not by what denomination or translation we use.
 

Rocky Wiley

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Eltanin said:
I am member of several Christian sites, and I see a reoccurring phenomenon in almost all of them... Arguing over who is right and wrong.

So I want to know something.

How important IS doctrine? Has the majority of the Christian community really replaced God with biblical interpretation aka doctrine?
Can you accept Jesus as your Savior and example without following another man's, or group's, interpretation?
If I don't agree with your accepted interpretation of the Bible, do you think I am deceived?

The bible is the Word of God. Doctrine is the word of man when it comes to church doctrine. Why do we need to understand it? God gave us the bible so we could come to know him. Why? Because one wouldn’t marry someone they didn’t know and we are the bride of Christ and should know him better than anyone else. Another reason is to help them that have not come to Christ. In order to know how that is done is to read the books where God or the Apostles are speaking to the lost. That would be the Gospels of Jesus because he spoke many times to those outside of his disciples. The book of Acts also speaks to the lost and what they must do to be saved.
The Epistles are to those that have been saved and are taught how to live for God.
Back to the Gospels and the book of Acts. What did Jesus tell the lost so that they might be saved?
1. Believe on him.
2. Believe as the scriptures hath said. (Not just that he existed)
3. Be born again of the water and the Spirit.
The why is understood by study of the Gospels and Acts, but the knowledge of God come from the entire bible.
If you are deceived, how would you know it if you don’t take God’s word as truth?

Be blessed.
 

Wormwood

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Eltanin,

Thanks for your response. It's hard to respond because you are making a lot of claims but not giving very many specific examples. I will try to address some of them to the best of my ability.

1. Yes, I agree that Christians should not limit the faith to cognitive assent to a series of doctrinal facts. Biblical faith implies action.
2. I'm not sure exactly what you are saying as you contrast the Bible with spiritual revelation. The Bible IS spiritual revelation. If you are suggesting that what is more important is one's personal feelings and impressions rather than the written Word, I would disagree strongly. The Bible is God's primary means of revealing himself and his purposes in the world...inspired and preserved by the Spirit of God, taught in its truth by people of the Spirit. To try to put things of the Spirit as separate from the Word of God is a terrible mistake.
3. I agree that many believers do not express the fruit of the Spirit as they share the hope and love of God available to us in Christ. They are far more concerned about being right than they are about the lost and dying. However, I believe there are many believers who are passionate about their views but also express those views in kindness, gentleness and love. This is a good thing. There is nothing wrong with having convictions about matters of doctrine.
4. I think you are misguided on the issues of homosexuality in the Old and New Testaments. First, early believers made the rejection of pornea a mandate for Gentiles becoming Christians. This word is referenced refers to all kinds of sexual perversity, including homosexuality. Homosexuality, in all its forms, was considered deviant by first century Jews. Neither the Church or ancient Judiasm EVER viewed any form of homosexuality as permissible. This argument of yours has surfaced recently by certain communities as a means of seeking biblical validation for sexual behavior that the contemporary culture is embracing. Moreover, Romans 1:27 is very explicit that sexual relations between men is perversion. One section of the Greek below literally reads "male with male the shamless deed to commit."

“ὁμοίως τε καὶ οἱ ἄρσενες ἀφέντες τὴν φυσικὴν χρῆσιν τῆς θηλείας ἐξεκαύθησαν ἐν τῇ ὀρέξει αὐτῶν εἰς ἀλλήλους, ἄρσενες ἐν ἄρσεσιν τὴν ἀσχημοσύνην κατεργαζόμενοι καὶ τὴν ἀντιμισθίαν ἣν ἔδει τῆς πλάνης αὐτῶν ἐν ἑαυτοῖς ἀπολαμβάνοντες.” (Romans 1:27, NA27)

Unfortunately, many use "spiritual interpretations" as a guise for portraying the Scriptures improperly and introducing new ideas (usually ideas that are being pushed by contemporary culture rather than the plain reading of the Biblical text).

5. Finally, this statement is loaded (and I think fraught with problems): " I think we need to put doctrine back in its place, behind a personal relationship with God, behind agape, and use it as to help us along in our understanding, not as the definition of who we are."

How can you have a "personal relationship with God" (a phrase not even found in the Bible) apart from doctrine? Knowing God is dependent upon approaching him correctly. We approach him through faith and that faith is based on doctrine. Your claim that love is more important than particular beliefs/doctines is in itself a particular belief! The question is, "On what are you basing this statement that doctrine is less significant than "personal relationship with God" and "agape." Obviously this view of yours is based on an underlying belief about what it means to be Christian and who God is. That is the irony of your attack on doctrine. Your attack on beliefs is built on an underlying belief. In reality, I think your views are much more shaped by postmodern trends that emphasizes the atomization of individuals and the exaltation of personal perspectives rather than the communal perspective of historic Christianity...but that's for another forum.
 

horsecamp

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how important is doctine ? With out the bibles doctrines there would be no belief .. The holy spirit works through the bibles doctrines bringing
people to faith in Jesus ........................Doctrine simply means------------- teachings



the word Doctrines flusters a lot of people untill they realize the simple meaning ..

The word Doctrine is normaly used in seminary training .. those who graduate from seminary and become pastors should not use it among the common people unless their willing first to explain the simple and common meaning..Other wise their just showing off by talking over peoples heads
and us common people are to blame also for not asking what a word means when a pastor use a higher educational theological word.

many pastors have more training in higher education than medical doctors .. yet they should be trained enough to know us common people dont.

i also noticed high church pastors and there theologians seem more likly to use terms common people would not know ..its a high chuchie thing.
perhaps?

low church's like my wisconsin lutheran synod pastors use the common language of the people when their talking to us . and reserve the high falutin theological
terms for when there talking to other pastors or professors ..


I THINK IT WOULD BE SIMPLE TO CURE high falutin language from a pastor though.. Just raise you hand every time he uses such terms in his sermon
and say huh whats that mean? HE will EVENTUALY KNOCK IT OFF Rather than have his sermon interupted by your hand raising and waving and YELLING you who ! i got another question .. :D



.

Eltanin said:
I would wish those type a fare well, but I am more concerned with those who have had the seed of fear planted because they are so scared that they choose the wrong doctrine...

I grew up in church, I was taught a doctrine, but when I became an adult, and it became necessary for me to go out into the world, I struggled for a long time with fear that I might be wrong and going to hell, because I might not have the right doctrine. I learned to allow the Spirit to open my eyes and help me focus on what I needed to so that I might find the purpose I was meant to.

Doctrine became secondary to relationship, but that wasn't necessarily what I was taught.

Growing up, I was taught to believe the Trinity or I didn't believe in God the right way, that you weren't saved without water baptism, and several other things that could spark major thread derailment... I was taught to believe that the symbols were as important, or more so, than what they symbolized.

Nowadays, symbols make or break certain doctrines.
it sorta sounds like they used Gods means of Grace as a big bully club beating you over the head with it to try to scare you into being saved .. I think they were confused about baptism..

its like some beating some one over the head with JESUS DEATH FOR ALL PEOPLE SAYING ---yOU GOTTA BELIEVE IT OR YOUR NOT SAVED ..than what did Jesus death do? nothing? IT SAVED THEM WHETHER THEY BELIEVE IT OR NOT .. BAPTISM is just another way God works through the message of the cross to give faith so a person can have the benefits of Jesus saving them on the cross.. YOU CANT HIT PEOPLE OVER THE HEAD WITH SOMETHING you Know Takes God to do,,

what does scripture say ? "NO ONE CAN SAY JESUS IS LORD EXCEPT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT"

sCRIPTURE IS TRUE

know one can truly say meaning it their heart That Jesus is their lord with out the holy spirt Working that faith in them through the message of Jesus death for them..

AND NEXT


Are you saying now you believe in a god that fits in to your resonable mind rather than the Trinity .. IF SO WOULDNT THAT God have to be smaller then your mind? and not god at all? and if so exactly who is this jesus of yours ?

just some things to think about..