No Degree Required

Absolutely true!

1John 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
KJV

Matt 16:16-18
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
KJV

The whole foundation of the true church is built upon God revealing the TRUTH of His Word to us... not man.. yet the body of Christ must feed upon one another's Bread that God has given each for us to SHARE with our brethren till we come into one completed man in Christ.
The Shepherds who hear from God are those who feed the sheep and keep them in line with Christ on the straight path using the Rod(Word of God) that may not feel good at the time, but comforts us as we LEARN to walk a straight line with the Word being more and more blessed by God and not veering to the left or to the right to go ahead or around the Good Shepherd who is our head into the outer paths of darkness where the wolves await to kill, steal and destroy the sheep that have gone astray~

hldude said:

[SIZE=medium]This is not to say that bible college and seminary education is wrong by any means, but sometimes we rely way too much on book knowledge and don’t just ask God to give us the words and direction we need when sharing with others. If we have Christ in our lives, we have the Holy Spirit and He will guide us and lead us in the way we need to go. [/SIZE]

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Just a few thoughts. I read a book about an indigenous mission in India. People who wanted to evangelise through the auspices of the mission went to their bible college to make sure they had a good grasp of scripture and then they were sent out to an area where the gospel had not reached. They were supported with $30 a month.

They had to make all their own travelling arrangements i.e. walk/bike; they had to make their own living arrangements i.e. build their own mud hut; they had to feed themselves; and they had to believe God for miracles of healing because that was often the thing that opened the door to the gospel.

These indigenous evangelists always end up forming a church in the village, teach the people and leave Elders to be responsible for the life of the church and then move on to do the same thing again in another village.

I wonder why they are so productive?

Another thing. It has said the western church is emptying the church by degrees. Perhaps that may be too cryptic for some.

Actually... you do need a PHD
Past Having Doubts!

God is not against learning. All believers on Jesus Christ that can read God's Word for theirself should be able to witness The Gospel to those who have not yet heard. That's the evangelist role. We all have that duty, but some are specifically called to do just that only.

But the pastor's role is deeper, and requires a deeper level of understanding in God's Word in order to teach all of His Word like the priests of Israel were given to do of old. That usually requires a greater knowledge of Bible Scripture about history, prophecy, etc.

Then there's the office of minister, which can cover various administrations within the Church, helping the sick, the widow, the fatherless, etc.

Apostle Paul was competent in all three roles. He was an evangelist to the Gentiles, to kings, and to the children of Israel (Acts 9:15). And he was a competent scholar of the Old Testament Scripture and law, having been trained under the best Hebrew scholar of his days, Gamaliel (Acts 22:3).

God's prophet Daniel was an OT example of one brought up to understand Bible Scripture regarding history and prophecy. Daniel was exalted by the king of Babylon over all his own wise men because of Daniel's God-given knowledge and wisdom, which is saying a lot, because Nebuchadnezzar worshiped the pagan god Nebo, the god of learning.

At the end of Hebrews 5, (Apostle Paul I presume), he rebuked brethren that should have matured to the "strong meat" of God's Word instead of their staying on the 'milk'.

So there is an admonitishing in God's Word for those in Christ Jesus to study (2 Timothy 2:15) and mature in Bible learning and wisdom, and not just stay on the 'milk' like babes all the time.

afaithfulone4u said:

Actually... you do need a PHD
Past Having Doubts!

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PRICELESS!!!!

veteran said:

But the pastor's role is deeper, and requires a deeper level of understanding in God's Word in order to teach all of His Word like the priests of Israel were given to do of old. That usually requires a greater knowledge of Bible Scripture about history, prophecy, etc.

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Can you help me. Where is there any scripture in the New Testament that says a shepherd, which is what a pastor is, teaches?

Then there's the office of minister, which can cover various administrations within the Church, helping the sick, the widow, the fatherless, etc.

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Once again, can you show me where it talks about the office of a minister?

Apostle Paul was competent in all three roles. He was an evangelist to the Gentiles, to kings, and to the children of Israel (Acts 9:15). And he was a competent scholar of the Old Testament Scripture and law, having been trained under the best Hebrew scholar of his days, Gamaliel (Acts 22:3).

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But he wasn't competent in the New Testament because it did not exist.

God's prophet Daniel was an OT example of one brought up to understand Bible Scripture regarding history and prophecy. Daniel was exalted by the king of Babylon over all his own wise men because of Daniel's God-given knowledge and wisdom, which is saying a lot, because Nebuchadnezzar worshiped the pagan god Nebo, the god of learning.

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Not a good example as God does not exalt anyone in ministry

At the end of Hebrews 5, (Apostle Paul I presume), he rebuked brethren that should have matured to the "strong meat" of God's Word instead of their staying on the 'milk'.

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it is doubtful that the writer is referring to the written word. The word "milk" is of uncertain affinity. Meat means nourishment and by implication rations. In a previous verse it talks about the "oracles" of God. That means spoken utterance. And when it talks about the word of righteousness it means the spoken word.

This is a case of making the word fit our theology instead of making our theology fit the word. Most learning in the New Testament Church was by word of mouth and example which we see little of today. Considering the sins that have been expose these days amongst leaders it is more a case of do as I say, not as I do.

marksman said:

Can you help me. Where is there any scripture in the New Testament that says a shepherd, which is what a pastor is, teaches?

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What's this about?

Jer 3:15
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.
(KJV)


Eph 4:11
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(KJV)



Num 8:24-26
24 This is it that belongeth unto the Levites: from twenty and five years old and upward they shall go in to wait upon the service of the tabernacle of the congregation:
25 And from the age of fifty years they shall cease waiting upon the service thereof, and shall serve no more:
26 But shall minister with their brethren in the tabernacle of the congregation, to keep the charge, and shall do no service. Thus shalt thou do unto the Levites touching their charge.
(KJV)

That's where the original duty came from for a minister. It can be applied many ways, but that shows about keeping the charge, serving.

Acts 13:4-5
4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
(KJV)

Rom 13:3-4
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
(KJV)

Rom 15:25
25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
(KJV)

Paul took care of administration duties too, like getting alms collected and delivered to the poorer brethren.

marksman said:

But he wasn't competent in the New Testament because it did not exist.

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Are you just wanting to argue? Of course The New Testament was not written yet, but it was being... written, even by Paul's Epistles (Letters). Apostle Paul was a learned scholar of the OT and law, so he was well prepared in service? You don't think that might have had something to do with Christ's using him as His "chosen vessel", because Paul would wind up writing most... of the NT Books.

I really don't know where folks are getting this mentality today that one who studies and reads is an intellectual, and that learning is some sort of sin! It's total ignorance, and it does not align with God in His Word either. In Jeremiah 4 God even rebuked rebellious Israel for being "sottish" with no knowledge or understanding. The word sottish means 'silly, foolish'.

marksman said:

Not a good example as God does not exalt anyone in ministry

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Daniel's understanding and learning was a prime example of one of God's chosen elect servants. Quite a thing when the head of a nation of unbelievers exalts one because of God-given wisdom over his own wise men. The history of the western Christian nations have many such cases of learned men called by God. Even in the early American colonies, the Christian Church was in charge of education. That's why so many of the oldest Universities in the U.S. were founded by the Christian Church.

marksman said:

it is doubtful that the writer is referring to the written word. The word "milk" is of uncertain affinity. Meat means nourishment and by implication rations. In a previous verse it talks about the "oracles" of God. That means spoken utterance. And when it talks about the word of righteousness it means the spoken word.

This is a case of making the word fit our theology instead of making our theology fit the word. Most learning in the New Testament Church was by word of mouth and example which we see little of today. Considering the sins that have been expose these days amongst leaders it is more a case of do as I say, not as I do.

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That's funny. You fit those in Jer.4 perfectly with that kind of baloney.

Heb 5:11-14
11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(KJV)


So just what is it that you don't like about me marksman?? Do you have hatred in your heart for those who go beyond your own understanding? Do you hate authority figures and teachers? Do you hate the idea of law and order?

I side with Veteran here. Simple witnessing or evangelizing requires no degree, yet other roles in the Church should have learned leaders.

WHat has building churches got to do with being productive, so many use the number of people in the church to declare there good works, there are thousands of churches in this world filled with dead people, church has so little to do with God and His glory, its mans way of boasting, "look at me God, look at what I did".

In all His Love*

justaname said:

I side with Veteran here. Simple witnessing or evangelizing requires no degree, yet other roles in the Church should have learned leaders.

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13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. (Acts 4)

I guess being an Apostle is not one of the functions which requires being learned?

The church is in many places in such a pitiful spiritual state because we do value being 'learned' above having been with God. But Jesus did not... The disciples were simple men, like fishers, but the power of God rested on them. The Pharisees were learned men, but did not receive nor perceive the power and life of God.

Ask yourself the question, which type of leader do we desire, a learned man who relies on his understanding, or an unlearned man who relies on the power of God?

You be the judges. But choose wisely... It is the difference between Saul and David.

RE: POST #1
To serve God and share the Gospel, there is no degree required, just a willingness to be used by Him.

While this sounds good, it is extremely idealistic and contrary to sound Biblical teaching. It leads to exactly the sort of foolishness that plagues the church today.

2 Tim 2:15 states that one ought to "study to show thyself approved". This implies that truth of any sort, be it spiritual or physical does not impregnate itself into the psyche by osmosis. It means we are commanded to study.

I have sat in too many church services preached by too many lame speakers who had no business at all standing in front of a roomful of people and wasting their time! Ra Ra Ra good intentions are simply not enough. Not in Jesus' time, not in the day of the apostle who wrote the line and certainly not in the beginning of the twenty first century.

Perhaps it is yet another example of the dumbing down of America - I've heard far too many.

There is absolutely no substitute for studied, experienced, academic knowledge behind anyone who proposes to share the gospel. That means formal education and it may also mean informal education, but it does NOT mean that anyone can acquire knowledge out of thin air. It simply does not happen and anyone who thinks it does is believing a lie and selling both themselves and Christianity short.

Do you not know that our culture already thinks Christians are uneducated psychotics? Want to prove them right? Don't STUDY.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

Having an academic without power probably sounds better than an unlearned man without power, but it only looks good because of what it is compared to. The truth is...

There is absolutely no substitute for spiritual men, experienced in walking with God, who share the gospel in power. That means walking with God and being led of the Spirit, there is no substitute, academic or not, for such a life.

A gospel in pretty words is no more effective to bring the will of God then a gospel in ugly words. It is a gospel taught in power, as Paul and the apostles did, which is the true gospel and brings about God's kingdom on earth.

Humans ridicule because of unlearnedness... Let them, they also ridiculed the disciples. But the church is shamed before powers and principalities because it is powerless, and this is what truly brings shame to God's name.

Prentis said:

Having an academic without power probably sounds better than an unlearned man without power, but it only looks good because of what it is compared to. The truth is...
There is absolutely no substitute for spiritual men, experienced in walking with God, who share the gospel in power. That means walking with God and being led of the Spirit, there is no substitute, academic or not, for such a life.
A gospel in pretty words is no more effective to bring the will of God then a gospel in ugly words. It is a gospel taught in power, as Paul and the apostles did, which is the true gospel and brings about God's kingdom on earth.
Humans ridicule because of unlearnedness... Let them, they also ridiculed the disciples. But the church is shamed before powers and principalities because it is powerless, and this is what truly brings shame to God's name.

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You make it sound as if formal education and godliness are incompatible. Yes, knowledge with no zeal or walk with God is of little use but so is zeal for God with no knowledge. Why not both knowledge and zeal? Yes the Apostles were unlearned when it came to the formal training they were used to, but they did walk with Jesus and learn from him for three years. Since we don't have that priviledge, I think committing oneself to study and memorize the Word and pray for years in a school is never a bad thing.

Very good thread with a lot of good responses, thanks for starting the thread Hldude. In reading the posts, this scripture came to mind.

1 When I first came to you, dear brothers and sisters, I didn’t use lofty words and impressive wisdom to tell you God’s secret plan. 2 For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified.3 I came to you in weakness—timid and trembling.4 And my message and my preaching were very plain. Rather than using clever and persuasive speeches, I relied only on the power of the Holy Spirit.5 I did this so you would trust not in human wisdom but in the power of God.
1 Cor 2:1-5 (NLT)

Prentis said:

Having an academic without power probably sounds better than an unlearned man without power, but it only looks good because of what it is compared to. The truth is...

There is absolutely no substitute for spiritual men, experienced in walking with God, who share the gospel in power. That means walking with God and being led of the Spirit, there is no substitute, academic or not, for such a life.

A gospel in pretty words is no more effective to bring the will of God then a gospel in ugly words. It is a gospel taught in power, as Paul and the apostles did, which is the true gospel and brings about God's kingdom on earth.

Humans ridicule because of unlearnedness... Let them, they also ridiculed the disciples. But the church is shamed before powers and principalities because it is powerless, and this is what truly brings shame to God's name.

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First and foremost, the Church is not powerless, nor does the Church bring shame to God's name, nor is it shamed before powers and principalities.

Selah








Next your argument in post #10 is fallacious.
[SIZE=12pt]False Dilemma (or False Dichotomy)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This is committed when a speaker or writer forces others into making either decision A (which is usually awful) or decision B (which is usually his conclusion). [/SIZE]



[SIZE=12pt]There is no reason why learned individuals must be devoid of the power of the HolySpirit. Case in point, Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles. [/SIZE]

The church as a whole does not generally bring shame to God's name, rather glory. But some parts, which will be rejected unless they repent, do indeed bring shame... Laodicea is a fine example of this. Not only this, but Jesus so often speaks of unprofitable servants in his parables. As Paul, Peter, and the prophets spoke of, we have come to the time of great apostasy. There is much confession of tongue in this part of the world but little truth and power.

To think that I am saying that education in and of itself is evil or prevents God's blessing is to misunderstand me. But the truth is that education without power and life from God is absolutely useless for the kingdom, it is one of the things Paul counts as dung. It makes us no more or less useful to God, it is not by cunning words but by the Spirit that the kingdom is advanced.

While education is in and of itself neutral towards the kingdom, because of the powers and principalities and the human nature which is enticed by them, it is often a reason for man to believe does not need power from on high, and he can lean on his own understanding. Because it is neutral though, it can be turned to an advantage for the one wbo fears God and is contrite of heart, as can all things.

Thus the example of Paul.

My point is that education does not bring us closer or further to God. God loves to use what is weak and despised of the world. Education is respected. Notice that Paul was educated and was a Pharisee, and this was all before his conversion. Religious education is not something we pursue once we have experienced the life and power of God in Christ Jesus, rather this very ljfe becomes our sole pursuit, and for it we count all other things as dung.

We have need that no man teach us, for the Spirit teaches us all truth. We seek an education in life and power with the Lord, which comes through experience with Him. Why seek within institutions what only God can provide? Why seek from man what only God can give?

Lets look to the scriptures...

Proverbs 18:15 - The heart of the prudent getteth knowledge; and the ear of the wise seeketh knowledge.

Proverbs 12:1 - Whoso loveth instruction loveth knowledge: but he that hateth reproof [is] brutish.

Hosea 4:6 - My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

Hosea 6:6 - For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.



God desires we seek knowledge of Him. In this pursuit of knowledge we can travel in many ways. We can become a hermit and meditate the majority of our lives. We can read the Bible through and through until we have it nearly memorized. We can go to our local churches and listen to sermons or homilies. We can attend Bible studies. We can seek a formal education from institutions dedicated to teaching about the Christian God. None of these pursuits are wrong in any fashion. None of these pursuits need to be devoid of the Spirit. Any of these vehicles of learning God can use to reveal Himself to you.

There are many institutions that are led by God fearing, Spirit filled men, that have decades of studying behind them. They have knowledge of God that they can pass onto us. They have listened to their calling, followed the Holy Spirt, and now hold a teaching position at a Bible college or seminary. Yes the Spirit teaches us all truth, and He uses men to do it. Men like Paul the Apostle, and St. Thomas Aquinas, and Martian Luther, and Jesus the Christ.

Are we so prideful that we can not learn from men God uses to teach others? Is teaching not a gift of the Holy Spirit?

veteran said:

What's this about? Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.(KJV)

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This is written to Israel, not the church.

Eph 4:111 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (KJV)

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There is no indication here that only shepherds teach. In Paul instructions to Timothy and Titus about leadership in the church, pastors are not mentioned once. It does say that Elders were to be chosen from among the flock to lead and some of them would shepherd and/or teach. These passages blow the idea out the window that the leader of the church is someone brought in from outside and given a title and a salary. If you are going to do that, then there must be people who are addressed as Apostle Tom, Evangelist Bill, Prophet Mark, Teacher James and pay them all a salary and put their names on the church noticeboard outside.

Num 8:26 But shall minister with their brethren in the tabernacle of the congregation, to keep the charge, and shall do no service. Thus shalt thou do unto the Levites touching their charge.(KJV)

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The word minister here means to attend as a menial or worshiper, it does not mean to teach

That's where the original duty came from for a minister. It can be applied many ways, but that shows about keeping the charge, serving.

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It is obvious then that you do apply it any way that suits your theology when in fact it means no such thing.

Acts 13:4-5 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus. And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.(KJV)

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The word for minister here is huperetes which means an under oarsman; a subordinate; a minister, officer, servant. It does not means to teach. The word for teacher is didaskalos. So where do you get teacher from in this verse when it is obviously not there?

Rom 13:3-4 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. (KJV)

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The word for minister here is diakonos, not didaskalos, and it means to run errands or an attendant or a waiter at a table or other menial duties. It does not mean to teach

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

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The word minister here is diakeno which means to be an attendant or to wait upon others, It does not mean to teach.

Are you just wanting to argue?

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No I am just stating a fact, but I do get the idea you want to argue.

I really don't know where folks are getting this mentality today that one who studies and reads is an intellectual, and that learning is some sort of sin!

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I do not think that the issue was studying and reading. The issue was degrees. You don't get a degree from studying and reading. You get it from an approved course of study as an academic establishment. Between them the disciples did not have one single degree. obviously it was not necessary as they had the power of the Holy Spirit which most of the time we don't so we replace him with degrees and pat each other on the back.

That's funny. You fit those in Jer.4 perfectly with that kind of baloney.

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1Co 1:26 For you see your calling, brothers, that there are not many wise according to flesh, nor many powerful, not many wellborn. But God chose the foolish things of the world that the wise might be put to shame, and God chose the weak things of the world so that He might put to shame the strong things. And God chose the low-born of the world, and the despised, and the things that are not, so that He might bring to nothing the things that are, so that no flesh might glory in His presence.

So just what is it that you don't like about me marksman?? Do you have hatred in your heart for those who go beyond your own understanding? Do you hate authority figures and teachers? Do you hate the idea of law and order?

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You have a peculiar understanding of your own importance veteran. I will tell you what was going through my mind as I responded to your nonsense.

One I enjoy posters like this as it gives me an opportunity to brush up on the truth and check the facts.

Two. How sad that there are those who are in bondage to man's religion and as a result ignore the truths of scripture.

Three. People like you are very predictable. Disagree with them and they start throwing around any scripture in an attempt to maintain their unscriptural position and if that doesn't work, start casting aspersions on the other persons character and motives.

Thanks brother. Keep posting as it will allow me to brush up on my original Greek and Hebrew.

Oh, and I am well qualified to talk about the subject as I have four degrees from theological college and university.

veteran said:

So there is an admonitishing in God's Word for those in Christ Jesus to study (2 Timothy 2:15) and mature in Bible learning and wisdom, and not just stay on the 'milk' like babes all the time.

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Once again you have put your own spin on the meaning of scripture and ignored what it does say.

In Greek, translated into English it says as follows....

Use speed (not the drug) and make an effort and be prompt and earnest to show yourself approved by God, a toiler that is not ashamed, rightly dissecting what has been said that is truth.

To paraphrase.....

Be quick to and make the effort to be a willing hearer of the truth and put it into practice.

So what is approved by God is what you do, not what you say or what you read as it has no reference to book study whatsoever.

justaname said:

Are we so prideful that we can not learn from men God uses to teach others? Is teaching not a gift of the Holy Spirit?

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No it is not a gift of the Holy Spirit. If you read Ephesians 4:11 you will find it is a gift of the ascended Christ.

Derek Prince who was one of the finest teachers of the Word of God, second to none, gave our church a very good understanding to the above question by quoting the verse that says the Holy Spirit will lead you into all truth, so why do we need teachers?

His answer was that we do need teachers but then we need the Holy Spirit to lead us into the truth of what has been said by the teacher as we all know, a lot of what is said is pure hogwash.

Unfortunately too many churches have pushed the Holy Spirit to the sidelines so he doesn't get much of a look in, so what is being said is up for grabs as to whether it is the truth or not. Too often the maxim is if the pastor says it it must be true.

Marksman,

Is the ascended Christ void of the Spirit? Is not the Trinity one God?

1 Corinthians 12:4-11
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

One of the ministries is teaching, or do you suggest those who have the gifts of knowledge and or wisdom should keep these to themselves? Do you not see the Church is to work together for the common good?

Let me be so bold to ask, do you know everything there is about God? Do you believe there are those who might know more than you? Can you learn from these?
If it true that we can learn from others, then through the leading of the Holy Spirit these can teach without hogwash.

So as to agree all things must be tested as to how it aligns with the word of God. When some teach how to think as opposed to what to think, you can be sure you are getting a good education.