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marksman

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Dodo_David said:
From another post in this thread:

In order to know if a pastor is teaching properly, we need to compare what the pastor says to what the Bible says. To do that, we need to know for ourselves what the Bible says. That takes study. Having a degree is a way to prove that one has studied adequately.

Not necessarily. It may mean I have been to the denominational bible college and learned what the denomination teaches which may not be what the bible teaches.

In another forum, there was an article "What are the five qualities of a good pastor?" He drew on the qualities for an aspiring elder in Timothy and Titus, which has nothing at all to do with the ministry of shepherding (Latin Pastor).

Having a degree will not enable you to discern if a pastor is teaching properly if you have learnt the same as he has, evidenced by the fact that pastors are generally clones of each other and the congregation are clones of the pastor.

Generally if you disagree with the pastor, you are not welcome so knowing the truth that is contrary to what the pastor believes is frowned upon.
 

mjrhealth

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Folks, I see nothing edifying about this thread.
How do you think the pharisees felt, those who where so respected by man, the ones who persecuted Christ and the disciples, the ones who supposedly had the way to heaven. Every time they spoke Jesus rebuked them and they wanted to Kill Him. When does the truth not Glorify God, how does a lie do such a thing. Can you imagine how the pharisees when Jesus said to them,

Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

or those who followed Him around,

Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

The ones more concerned with the world than the Gospel. As Prentis said, mans religion has made its place in the world , for it is the world and the world loves it as do men,and because it is of this world it needs to find its place and so it does this by entertaining the crowds, parties, speakers that give good words to those who have "itchy ears', those who do not desire the truth for they prefer the lie, because the lie pleases the flesh and the flesh cries out to be pleased. Was it not John, " one crying in the wilderness make the way straight', he was not a crowd but one who listened to the voice of the " one true Shepherd". As Jesus said. " I am the Way the TRUTH and the LIFE , no man shall eneter into heaven EXCEPT THROUGH ME". not your religion or any other door.

Joh_10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
Joh_10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Joh_10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

In all His most amazing Grace and Love
 

Dodo_David

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Dodo_David said:
In order to know if a pastor is teaching properly, we need to compare what the pastor says to what the Bible says. To do that, we need to know for ourselves what the Bible says. That takes study. Having a degree is a way to prove that one has studied adequately.

marksman said:
Not necessarily. It may mean I have been to the denominational bible college and learned what the denomination teaches which may not be what the bible teaches.
I said, "Having a degree is a way to prove that one has studied adequately." I did not say that it is the only way.
 

Prentis

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What we have built in our own way and done, God must tear down. People who are attached to this hate it as the Pharisees did, but it must be torn down that what God wants to build can be built in it's place. That is the reality in all of us and among us.

We can fight the tearing down of man's system, but we unknowingly are fighting God who needs tear down before rebuilding.

As mjrhealth said, there is a voice crying in the wilderness to make the way straight for the Lord. He will visit us again and test all men to see what we have built with. Men hated this voice also, and did not understand that it was God calling to return to His ways. May the eyes of the hearts be open and the understanding of men enlightened to see the glorious calling, and the calling for a return to righteousness and God's ways.
 

Dodo_David

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Folks, I see nothing edifying about this thread.
mjrhealth said:
How do you think the pharisees felt,
The Pharisees were criticized directly by God-incarnate, who has perfect knowledge about what is right and wrong.

Is any participant in this discussion God-incarnate?
Does any participant in this forum have perfect knowledge?
 

justaname

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Prentis said:
Yes. The word says 'all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution'. Christ says 'Woe to you if men speak well of you, for so they spoke of the false prophets'. The modern church has attempted to please many men, and has become false because of this. When we repent and return to Christ, as he calls the Laodiceans to do, we will once again live godly and see the opposition of the enemy. For now, we have compromised with him.

You are correct, I do not speak of the church in China, and Iraq, and India, and the struggle of those who suffer for Christ and righteousness. I say nothing on that subject because I have nothing to say against them. Their works praise them, and show what they are. But my posts were not about them to start with.

Was Jesus speaking a curse on the Laodicean's when he threatened to spew them out, or was it a warning and call to return to the truth? The modern church in North America has very much become a sinking ship, because it has associated itself with the world and it's ways. The world is condemned and will burn, this truth is not said in hatred but in love, that those who see would come out. The truth is spoken so that those who perceive it would indeed depart this sinking ship and enter the ark of our salvation, Christ, becoming a disciple and being transformed in his image. The boat of the Pharisees, who were descendants of God's people, was also a sinking ship, and they did not perceive it. But we are called to come outside the camp to seek Him, that is, outside of all the institutions that have attached themselves to the world, and into the wilderness where he awaits us.

If we live as he did, we will be persecuted and hated, but we have made ourselves acceptable to the world in North America.

If you do not perceive this, and not agree, that is fine. I will pray for you also. :)

Blessings!
I think you need to clarify yourself here. Again you make generalizations. Obviously when you are not specific or clear in what you present, it is difficult to have good dialogue. Your statement was about "the leaders and institutions" and "the churches" in the last post, now it is the "church in North America". Still vague.


Is there a particular denomination you have in mind?
Are you one who circulates around America speaking to pastors and priests?
Do you truly have your finger on the pulse of the congregations of North American churches to know their sin habits?
Do you really know the programs of the majority of churches in America?
Is every church in America guilty of what you accuse?
What do you mean "associated itself with the world and its ways"?
What do you mean "made ourselves acceptable to the world"?


Thank you. I appreciate your prayers!
 

marksman

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Prentis said:
What we have built in our own way and done, God must tear down. People who are attached to this hate it as the Pharisees did, but it must be torn down that what God wants to build can be built in it's place. That is the reality in all of us and among us.

We can fight the tearing down of man's system, but we unknowingly are fighting God who needs tear down before rebuilding.

As mjrhealth said, there is a voice crying in the wilderness to make the way straight for the Lord. He will visit us again and test all men to see what we have built with. Men hated this voice also, and did not understand that it was God calling to return to His ways. May the eyes of the hearts be open and the understanding of men enlightened to see the glorious calling, and the calling for a return to righteousness and God's ways.
Prentis, you are getting better all the time. Very perceptive in this case. I understand what you mean even if others do not.

To add a small point to what you have said. Jesus said he would build HIS church, not ours. Like you, I have a feeling that the writing is on the wall for "our church" and that HIS CHURCH is growing from strength to strength.
 
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justaname

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In a conscience decision and effort to stay on topic...


1 Corinthians 28-29
28 And God has aappointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then fmiracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

If God has appointed some as teachers, and these teachers decide to teach in seminary because the feel they were led by God to teach in such an administration that God has appointed, why is this worldly? Why shouldn't our church leaders be encouraged if not expected to do such? If God appoints teachers, is it not wise to learn from such appointed
men?

Let me speak to the subject of Paul the Apostle also because this was mentioned before also...

Paul drew from his education during his ministry when evangelizing. (Acts 17:22-31) To say he considered his former education as rubbish is to misunderstand what Paul was attempting to convey.

8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of aknowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

I have bolded what the emphasis of the verse is. If you notice also, he mentioned the loss of all things; he certainly did not lose his education.

Finally, those who gain an education from bible college or seminary go to grow in their knowledge of God. This is something that God rejoices in and encourages. You shall love the Lord with all your mind.
 

mjrhealth

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he certainly did not lose his education.
No but he realised it counted for nothing.

1Co_2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co_12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

You can spend all your life in church, bible college, know scripture like the back of your hand, an never know God, The pharisees where the perfect example, that is why Paul counted it all as loss, for it is the greatest barrier between God and man. He only wanted to know Christ by the Spirit. truth.

In all His Love
 

justaname

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mjrhealth said:
No but he realised it counted for nothing.

1Co_2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co_12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

You can spend all your life in church, bible college, know scripture like the back of your hand, an never know God, The pharisees where the perfect example, that is why Paul counted it all as loss, for it is the greatest barrier between God and man. He only wanted to know Christ by the Spirit. truth.

In all His Love
Yet as I mentioned before he used it during his ministry, thereby it proved useful when bringing others to Christ. Now I am not saying his education supplanted the work of the Holy Spirit, yet it enabled him to communicate the gospel that was relevant to his audience.

Again bible schools and seminaries are in place to teach others Christ by the Spirit, truth.
 

mjrhealth

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enabled him to communicate the gospel that was relevant to his audience.
No education can do that, that is what the Holy Spirit is given to do. No man can discern what one needs to hear, only God knows what needs to be said. Ears to hear, eyes to see, what the Spirit of God is saying.

In all His Love
 

Prentis

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marksman said:
Prentis, you are getting better all the time. Very perceptive in this case. I understand what you mean even if others do not.

To add a small point to what you have said. Jesus said he would build HIS church, not ours. Like you, I have a feeling that the writing is on the wall for "our church" and that HIS CHURCH is growing from strength to strength.
Yes! There is a great difference between our church, that we built, and his church. Unless the Lord builds the house, the builders build in vain.


justaname said:
Yet as I mentioned before he used it during his ministry, thereby it proved useful when bringing others to Christ. Now I am not saying his education supplanted the work of the Holy Spirit, yet it enabled him to communicate the gospel that was relevant to his audience.

Again bible schools and seminaries are in place to teach others Christ by the Spirit, truth.
Paul had to leave his old education, and spent 17 or so years in the desert receiving a new one. All education is worthless unless we are taught of the Father. If we learn all the right words and right formulas, it is nothing unless we do 'what we see the Father doing'. The right words are not enough, but there must be harmony with the Spirit and what the Spirit is doing in that moment and place. Paul's former education was as useful for the gospel as one's high school education might be: it gave him basic knowledge and the ability to read and write. But the ways that he had learned, the thoughts he had adopted all had to be torn down for a new a living way in Christ Jesus.


justaname said:
I think you need to clarify yourself here. Again you make generalizations. Obviously when you are not specific or clear in what you present, it is difficult to have good dialogue. Your statement was about "the leaders and institutions" and "the churches" in the last post, now it is the "church in North America". Still vague.


Is there a particular denomination you have in mind?
No, all denominations are divisions according to man's doctrine. The whole idea of a denomination is based on doctrine and not on life. Doctrine is important, but as a protector of life, without life even right doctrine does not make one alive.
Are you one who circulates around America speaking to pastors and priests?
No. I have experience in some churches, speaking to a few pastors, and seeing what some pastors and priests do.
Do you truly have your finger on the pulse of the congregations of North American churches to know their sin habits?
It is not about a 'sin habit' or another 'sin habit', it is about whether we are in the truth or not, and walking in life or not. Once we are, then we can concentrate on details where people err. But we have erred not in small things but great things, the very core of the gospel.
Do you really know the programs of the majority of churches in America?
You do not need to know the programs specifically, one only needs to know how programs work. A program is mechanical and man led, it is prepared in advance and breaks already with the NT principle of simplicity which allows the Spirit to lead us to where he will.
Is every church in America guilty of what you accuse?
I am not here to make determinations about individuals or one small group. But the type of life (or lack thereof) is clearly displayed by our impact, our books, the type of lives we lead, and the testimony we have to the world around us.
What do you mean "associated itself with the world and its ways"?
We have a pulpit, one man leading, pre-prepared programs, government tax exemptions, being friends with the world (the government). In the world, men lead according to their plans and thoughts, and so it is now in the church. But it is to be led of the Spirit.
What do you mean "made ourselves acceptable to the world"?
We have a doctrine of salvation according to a belief, as opposed to the doctrine of radical transformation by Christ Jesus in the Spirit and radical lifestyle. More importantly, we do not have the life that goes with the radical doctrine either. Our testimony receives apathy, the testimony of the early church received much hatred, because it called all men to be transformed and changed.
We see so little of it here that we do not even know for the most part what the radical transformation spoken of in the NT looks like, so we settle for what is presented to us: a doctrine of easy believism and easy salvation. But we are called to so great a salvation where our entire being is changed and we live so radically united with God that the world hates us, because we threaten it's current spiritual order, and thus the power and principalities set the world against us to destroy us. This is the testimony of the early church and the testimony we are called to: to testify of the life and power in Christ Jesus which convinces the sinner to repentance and the hypocrite to throw stones. If we walk as he did, and live as he did, we will not leave the world indifferent.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, all.

Look, having a degree doesn't make one smarter than another or more likely to do this or do that. Having a degree simply means that one is smart enough to do the requirements that lead up to a school or institution conferring that degree upon that person. I have four degrees from three different institutions and was a "professional student" for about 13 years (some of that while working full time for a job). Big deal. Having the degrees is nothing. HAVING THE EXPOSURE TO LOTS OF DIFFERENT FIELDS OF STUDY IS EVERYTHING!

When I had a brief episode with a multi-level marketing company, we were instructed to constantly read books, most of which were self-improvement books or motivational books, and one of the quotations that really made sense for me was this:

"You don't know that you don't know what you don't know."

Profound, right? A couple of these books called it having "blind spots." It's like seeing your own nose all the time in your own field of vision and totally ignoring it for the what you are focusing on.

Close one eye and focus on where your nose is in your vision. Touch your nose, if you want confirmation that what you are looking at is indeed your nose. Then, close the other eye and see your nose with the other eye. Then, open both eyes and look cross-eyed at your nose! (Do this in private if you don't want to be taken for some kind of nut.) You'll notice that you've been seeing your own nose all the time! It's been there all along! You just haven't been paying attention to it! (Don't worry too much about noticing your nose for the rest of the day. The revelation sticks with you for a while.)

Now, think about this sentence again,...

"You don't know...
that you don't know...
what you don't know."

What are some of the things that one doesn't know? Well, that could be ANYTHING that is outside of the instruction you've had up to the present. Most don't know how to do calculus. Most don't know who all the vice presidents were to all the presidents down through the history of the United States. Most don't know how computer programming languages work, even if they know a particular programming language and can use it well. And, these are just tidbits of information from only 3 different subjects! We have such an information overload today, that NO ONE can be master of it all! Oh, there's a few like the "Jeopardy" champion, Ken Jennings, who have a good command over several subjects, but even they don't know it all.

What an education does for us is to EXPOSE us to what is POSSIBLE to learn, and all around the world, people are making strides into many different fields of study, ever expanding the body of knowledge from which we build our societies. Hopefully, when one attends an academy, college or university, he or she will find his or her "niche" - a place where he or she can excel because it's a necessary field of study and one likes that field and is good at it.

Now, let's talk about the work of the Ruach haQodesh Eloheinu (the Holy Spirit of our God):

Do the Scriptures EVER tell us that someday we'll know it all? NO!!! Some believe that the verse...


1 Corinthians 13:12
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
KJV

means that we'll know it all someday, but that's not the "know" that Paul is talking about here. Paul is saying that we will RECOGNIZE others like they will recognize us. It does NOT mean that God will give us all knowledge! What ARE we told?


John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
KJV

In order for the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit or the "Holy Ghost") to "bring all things to your remembrance," means that the knowledge of what we COULD remember was there FIRST! The Greek word translated "shall teach" in this verse is didaxei, a form of didaskoo:


NT:1321 didaskoo (did-as'-ko); a prolonged (causative) form of a primary verb daoo (to learn); to teach (in the same broad application):
KJV - teach.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) (I use "oo" for an omega and an "o" for omicron.)

Therefore, the word "didaskoo" stems from "daoo" meaning "to learn"; that would imply that the word, meaning "to teach," really means to "help one to learn" as a causative action.

The point I'm making is this: God doesn't go ... <POOF!> ... You have INSTANT knowledge! I mean, sure, the Holy Spirit COULD just help one to have instant knowledge, if He so chose to work that way, but generally speaking, HE DOESN'T!!! He brings all things - whatever Yeshua` (Jesus) has said to us - to our remembrance! He helps us to RECALL what Yeshua` said that is ALREADY STORED IN OUR MEMORY!!

IF we have not taken the time to STORE what Yeshua` said IN our memory, do we really think that we can EXPECT or COMMAND the Spirit to put it in there for us?! Wouldn't you think He would require some work from US?! Learning should be an on-going, never-ending process in each one of us! We can trust the Ruach haQodesh to lead us to the knowledge He would have us learn, but WE still have to do the learning! THAT'S where Bible colleges and universities and seminaries come in!

We are ALWAYS responsible to God to learn more about Him each day, whether in school or outside of school! But, again, the schools are there to HELP GUIDE us into knowledge that would benefit whatever our roll is in His economy and His will for us, whether a pastor, a teacher, or a lay worker in some other capacity!
 

Dodo_David

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Once upon a time, I had a pastor who had a Doctorate of Divinity Degree.

His advanced degree did not guarantee that everything that he said was correct.

For example, during one of his sermons, the pastor proclaimed, "Jesus said that Jonah was swallowed by a whale. Therefore Jonah was swallowed by a whale!"

There is just one problem with his claim. The word whale is Germanic in origin, and the Germanic language is not in the Greek New Testament manuscripts.
 

Prentis

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We have no need of endless knowledge of the wisdom of men, but of what is unknown to most of creation, the life and wisdom of the most high God revealed to us in Christ Jesus. Before him, all our theories, theologies, psychologies, philosophies become meaningless, and the powerlessness of these idols is revealed, and their nakedness revealed.

Unless we are vessels in which his life and power is made manifest we accomplish to nothing more than rubble. We are here to demonstrate the heavenly life in Christ Jesus, which is in exact opposition to the worldly life presented to us by man's wisdom.
 

marksman

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Prentis said:
Paul had to leave his old education, and spent 17 or so years in the desert receiving a new one. All education is worthless unless we are taught of the Father. If we learn all the right words and right formulas, it is nothing unless we do 'what we see the Father doing'. The right words are not enough, but there must be harmony with the Spirit and what the Spirit is doing in that moment and place. Paul's former education was as useful for the gospel as one's high school education might be: it gave him basic knowledge and the ability to read and write. But the ways that he had learned, the thoughts he had adopted all had to be torn down for a new a living way in Christ Jesus.
More great stuff Prentice. I am becoming a real fan of yours. By the way, is that extra hand on your shoulder in your photo the reason you are so hand...some? Boom, boom. Or is it a case of many hands make light work? Enough of this levity as I might get a dressing down by the pharisees here. (no offence intended).

Now as I see it, if Paul's education (degrees) was so good and important and is often used by some to prove that degrees are good and needed, why was it that God took him into oblivion for 13 years (or was it 17) to undo what he had learnt and learn the new way of the Spirit bearing in mind he did not study the New Testament as it did not exist then?

Makes you think doesn't it. Well makes some people think. Others seem happy to parrot what they have been told and as a result they have this strange idea if someone thinks differently to them, there must be something wrong with it or them.

Oh well, you win some and you lose some.
 

Dodo_David

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marksman said:
Now as I see it, if Paul's education (degrees) was so good and important and is often used by some to prove that degrees are good and needed, why was it that God took him into oblivion for 13 years (or was it 17) to undo what he had learnt and learn the new way of the Spirit bearing in mind he did not study the New Testament as it did not exist then?
Uh, where in the New Testament does Paul say that he undid what he had previously learned?
It appears to me that his desert training from the Lord added to the training that Paul already had.
In short, Paul had his Master's Degree, and the Lord gave him a Doctorate.
 

aspen

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Chistianity is capatible with higher thought and advanced education. however, one must not lose sight of the basic message which is to love unselfishly.
 

mjrhealth

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Uh, where in the New Testament does Paul say that he undid what he had previously learned?
It appears to me that his desert training from the Lord added to the training that Paul already had.
In short, Paul had his Master's Degree, and the Lord gave him a Doctorate.
To become a disciple of Christ one must die to self, that includes unlearning alot of waht you have being taught, only way I can put it,is a disk format and new operating system. There is no shortcuts with God, and again mans knowledge, wisdom and learning count for nothing. If you are not sitting at His feet learning from Him, than it is all just wasted learning.

Ever learning bu never coming into the fullness of the truth.

Jesus is the truth.

In all His Love
 
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Dodo_David

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mjrhealth said:
To become a disciple of Christ one must die to self, that includes unlearning alot of waht you have being taught
Uh, do you know what "begging the question" is?

I asked, "Where in the New Testament does Paul say that he undid what he had previously learned?"

You didn't answer my question. Instead, you simply repeated your original claim.

Throughout his epistles, Paul uses his knowledge of the Tanakh (a.k.a. Old Testament) to explain how the Tanakh points to Messiah Jesus.
Paul's post-conversion learning illuminated his pre-conversion learning.