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mjrhealth

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Throughout his epistles, Paul uses his knowledge of the Tanakh (a.k.a. Old Testament) to explain how the Tanakh points to Messiah Jesus.
Paul's post-conversion learning illuminated his pre-conversion learning.
Jesus already gave you the answer,

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

You just dont get it,

1Co_1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co_1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

All the learning stil you wont go to Jesus and still so many with all their knowledge dont know Him.

In all His Love
 

marksman

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Dodo_David said:
Uh, where in the New Testament does Paul say that he undid what he had previously learned?
It appears to me that his desert training from the Lord added to the training that Paul already had.
In short, Paul had his Master's Degree, and the Lord gave him a Doctorate.
That is your take on it. It is not mine. If what Paul knew was sufficient, God would not have invested 13 years into his life if he knew what there was that he needed to know.

I don't suppose for one moment that he threw away what he knew of the old covenant, but that would not have been sufficient to preach the new covenant.

At the same time being a pharisee, he would have to get all the old laws and ordinances out of his system to appreciate the law of the spirit of life under the new covenant.
 

Prentis

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Paul's learning and all the wisdom he acquired before his conversion led him to partake in the stoning of a man who right before his eyes was speaking truth and filled with the Holy Spirit.

... and we would call that a master's degree?

Saul, the Pharisees and many after the same pattern since have searched the scriptures and learned things in carnal terms according to their own understanding, and have by this made themselves enemies of the cross. (Yes, Saul was redeemed and became Paul)

Before them, the Israelites killed the prophets sent to them.

Do we really expect the pattern to be different today? There is nothing new under the sun.

After Paul learned God's ways in Christ Jesus he became like the very man he approvingly watched other stone. That isn't what you would call going further in the same direction, it is going completely in the opposite direction!

Does the new creation in Christ mean nothing? Can the old receive the blessings just as well? Of course, anyone here who has searched the scriptures enough knows the right answer, but who understands all the implications of this? Our old life is gone, worthless and good for nothing. Unless we are taught and receive of the Master himself, we have nothing to give.
 

justaname

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mjrhealth said:
No education can do that, that is what the Holy Spirit is given to do. No man can discern what one needs to hear, only God knows what needs to be said. Ears to hear, eyes to see, what the Spirit of God is saying.

In all His Love
Again what i said is "it enabled him to communicate the gospel that was relevant to his audience."

Here is where I cited where Paul is clearly utilizing his prior education to contextualize the gospel. Again my argument is Paul refers to knowledge he gained in his education, not that he discerns what one needs to hear.


Acts 17:25

25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things;


17:25. God is above human temples, but He is also self-sufficient and is not sustained by human provisions. This truth would appeal to the Epicureans who believed that what god or gods existed were above human events.
The last part of the verse, dealing with God’s providing people with life (cf. v. 28) and material needs (cf. 14:17), suited the Stoic philosophy of aligning their lives with the “Purpose” of the Cosmos. Paul was thus beginning where his listeners were and was leading them from their inadequate concepts of the truth.

Acts 17:28
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’


17:28. To buttress his point Paul apparently quoted from Epimenides, the Cretan poet (whom Paul also quoted later in Titus 1:12): For in Him we live (cf. Acts 17:25), and move, and have our being. Also Paul quoted the poet Aratus, from Paul’s homeland Cilicia: We are His offspring. This second quotation was from Aratus’ work Phainomena. All people—Athenians along with all others—are God’s offspring, not in the sense that they are all His redeemed children or in the sense that they all possess an element of deity, but in the sense that they are created by God and receive their very life and breath from Him (v. 25). The Athenians’ very creation and continued existence depended on this one God whom they did not know! No such claim could ever be made of any of the scores of false gods worshiped by the Greeks.


Walvoord, John F., & Zuck, R. B., Dallas Theological Seminary. (1985). The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures. Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.
Prentis said:
Paul's learning and all the wisdom he acquired before his conversion led him to partake in the stoning of a man who right before his eyes was speaking truth and filled with the Holy Spirit.

... and we would call that a master's degree?

Saul, the Pharisees and many after the same pattern since have searched the scriptures and learned things in carnal terms according to their own understanding, and have by this made themselves enemies of the cross. (Yes, Saul was redeemed and became Paul)

Before them, the Israelites killed the prophets sent to them.

Do we really expect the pattern to be different today? There is nothing new under the sun.

After Paul learned God's ways in Christ Jesus he became like the very man he approvingly watched other stone. That isn't what you would call going further in the same direction, it is going completely in the opposite direction!

Does the new creation in Christ mean nothing? Can the old receive the blessings just as well? Of course, anyone here who has searched the scriptures enough knows the right answer, but who understands all the implications of this? Our old life is gone, worthless and good for nothing. Unless we are taught and receive of the Master himself, we have nothing to give.
And there are institutions today that teach in accordance with Christ's teachings, not man's teaching. Now I will agree that some institutions that claim Christianity do not adhere to proper teachings, as they have sided with the incorrect doctrine of errancy in the text.
An illustration:

There was a man caught in a flood and prayed to God for salvation. While waiting for for a miracle the man climbed to the roof of his house. Suddenly a helicopter appeared, yet the man waved it off stating, "I am waiting for God to save me." Eventually the flood waters overtook him and he drowned. When getting to the golden gates he appears before God and asks, "Why didn't you save me?" God replies, "I sent a helicopter, what more did you need?"

God provides many ways to know Him, it is up to us to utilize the tools He puts in place. Education is simply another tool put in place to strengthen our walk in the Spirit. Apologists study classic forms of apology as well as new scientific developments that support creation theory, debaters study fallacies as well as logic for proper argumentation, missionaries study anthropology and sociology in the regions they evangelize, pastors gain education in the phycology, philosophy, theology as well as different fields. All of this education proves useful as an instrument of the Lord.
 

mjrhealth

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God gave us Jesus so we could know Him,

Joh_8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Joh_16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

You can read all teh books in the worldy study all you like and you will never Know Jesus. Its all the flesh trying to please God thorugh ones works,

1Co 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1Co 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
1Co 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

Learning in itself has become an Idol to men. You can only know Jesus by going to Jesus, there is no other way.

In all His Love
 

justaname

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Ephesians 4:11-12

11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

According to scripture teachers and pastors are provided for the equipping of the saints, for the work of service.

Are you stating we should reject those God provides?

1 Corinthians 12:4-8

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.
7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;

Again the scriptures teach there are a variety of ministries and gifts. One may have wisdom while the other has knowledge. It is the manifestation of the Spirit that is for the common good.

Perhaps we should quit listening to teachers filled with knowledge? Is this what you are teaching?

Further in the same chapter we are taught by the apostle Paul.

1 Corinthians 12:28-29

28 And God has aappointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then fmiracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

So as you teach we do not need these teachers God appointed correct?
 

mjrhealth

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Are you stating we should reject those God provides?
So often christians do, because many taht are called dont have flattering tiltes, dont preach what people want to hear, only speak waht God has given them and only seek to Glorify God and not man and his religion.

So as you teach we do not need these teachers God appointed correct?
And how do you know they are sent by God, beacuse they call themselves preacher or prophet, rememebr the prophets of bal, they too where called prophet.

In all his Love
 

justaname

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mjrhealth said:
So often christians do, because many taht are called dont have flattering tiltes, dont preach what people want to hear, only speak waht God has given them and only seek to Glorify God and not man and his religion.
Title or no title, we should not reject any that are called to teach. And we should listen to what they have to teach us.

mjrhealth said:
And how do you know they are sent by God, beacuse they call themselves preacher or prophet, rememebr the prophets of bal, they too where called prophet.

In all his Love
Yes but they were called "prophets of Baal" not prophets of Yehweh or Christ. I know teachers are sent by God if what they teach aligns with God's holy word.
 

mjrhealth

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know teachers are sent by God if what they teach aligns with God's holy word.
Oh you talking about the bible, how many cults and false religions preach the bible, as for Gods Word, Jesus comes to mind, but again so many prefer the dead letter to the living Word. Its by the fruit we judge so little fruit so much preaching.

In all His love
 

FHII

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hldude said:
[SIZE=medium] I really like here how Peter and John were both unschooled and very ordinary men who were on fire and passionate about spreading the Good News. They didn’t have a college or seminary degree, they just had a love and passion for Jesus Christ. Wow, how simplified that is![/SIZE]
They didn't? They sat three years under the Dean of the School of Christianity, and Peter was the problem child student! His "love and passion" got him rebuked several times! These guys didn't have an education? What was Jesus doing when he traveled with them? Did Jesus have a formal education? Ahh! Careful how you answer, cause I can provide evidence he did!

God chose prophets from those not in the schools, and he chose apostles from those who weren't in schools and those who were. But those that weren't in formal schools.... Well, he set up his own school. The answer is that Peter and John DID have a degree from the best college and seminary school available.... Jesus TAUGHT THEM.

Now, I see a lot of doubt and putting down of those who go to ministry schools. I don't mind this. A lot of folks who go there shouldn't and aren't preachers. But some of them are. My problem is that often times this is brought up by people who are and should be mere sheep and prove to be goats.

Let me be more clear... Perfectly clear! There are a bunch of people on this board who like to beat down on preachers, complain about tele-evangelists and tear down the institution because I believe they don't like what is being preached! Basically, they are doing what Korah and his merry band did! But by what they have posted, they clearly are lacking truth and understanding themselves! They bash the educated preachers when they are fools themselves!

Why bash the teacher? Didn't like what was preached last Sunday? Or are you the "real deal" and he ain't?

Folks, I am nothing more than a sheep! I'm not called to preach (not that I know of) and I agree that many from the Ivory walls of higher learning aren't called by God to preach the Truth. But I haven't seen too many here that could hold their jock strap! I just see a bunch of whiners and complainers who think they are just as famous in the congregation as their Moses.

Just like the hippies and flower children.... Tear down the institution but you don't have anything substancial to replace it.
 

Dodo_David

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What I see happening on this thread is this:

A person rejects discoveries made through sound scholarship because the discoveries don't match the person's preconceived ideas.
Then, the person accuses the scholars who made the discoveries of being false teachers.

In short, what is being expressed is a spirit of anti-scholarship, something that the Bible doesn't support.
 

mjrhealth

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Tear down the institution but you don't have anything substancial to replace it.
What you dont consider Chist the Holy Spirit and God a better substute for mans "institutions".

A person rejects discoveries made through sound scholarship because the discoveries don't match the person's preconceived ideas.
Then, the person accuses the scholars who made the discoveries of being false teachers.
So many ready to accept mans doctrines before the truth which is Jesus Christ, and that taught by the Holy Spirit, preffering the dead lettr to the living Word, And as it says, They love it that way"

In all His Love
 

FHII

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mjrhealth said:
What you dont consider Chist the Holy Spirit and God a better substute for mans "institutions".
That's pretty much wrong.... Christ's ambassador and spokesman laid some pretty good foundation including eph 4:11.... As for the Holy Spirit.... The problem is everyone wants the "Peter sees the table with all manner of beasts" experience of the Holy Spirit, but not the Cornelius experience. They want the Acts 2 experience of speaking with cloven tongues of fire, but they don't want the multitude who heard them experience.... And of course, I don't see too many on this board that wants the Holy Spirit experience in Acts 4:34.

The problem is everyone wants the HS, but they want something "magical".... they want the Casper the friendly Holy Ghost. When it says the Holy Spirit will teach you all things, that's true.... But he does it through preachers.
 

mjrhealth

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When it says the Holy Spirit will teach you all things, that's true.... But he does it through preachers.
YEs the enemy has deceived many.

Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Eph_4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

No revelation of your own,

My Sheep Hear My voice, does taht mean if you dont hear His voice you are not His Sheep.

Joh_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:


In all His Love
 

justaname

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mjrhealth said:
YEs the enemy has deceived many.
Proving with the manner in which you handle God's word, the one deceived is you.

mjrhealth said:
Gal_1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Here Paul is referring to his Damascus road experience. Not all believers have the same experience as Paul did.

John 20:29
Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

mjrhealth said:
Eph_4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Here I am uncertain which translation you are using, but a more accurate translations is as follows:

20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,

All believers are in Christ. Also the manner in which you ripped this out of context in a false attempt to use it as a premise to your argument shows clearly your blatant disregard for scripture.

mjrhealth said:
1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Now I find this interesting, because it goes directly against your false conception. Let me first say this is a teaching by John. John is a man and is not Jesus. According to you we only need Jesus to teach us. So then apparently we need to discard all of scripture all together because Jesus did not author one book of the Bible.

Is it that the Holy Spirit can teach us also? If this is true then just like John the Apostle, preachers and teachers appointed by God have the authority and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to teach us also.

So which way is it, and please be consistent with your answer?

mjrhealth said:
No revelation of your own,

My Sheep Hear My voice, does taht mean if you dont hear His voice you are not His Sheep.

Joh_10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
Joh_10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
This is just an insult...the Lord will deal with you here. Please remember:

Matthew 7:2
"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
 

FHII

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Good show, Justaname... I can't help but to see Mjrhealth picks his battles. And loses.... But he doesn't really address everything I wrote... No one will touch the Holy Spirit annointed act in Acts 4....Or any other for that matter. They want to be the cloven tongues of fire but not the wonderful people who heard it. They want to be Peter and not Cornelius. Everyone thinks himself a sheperd and not a sheep. But God did call this ministry.... I see a lot of folks on this board who are a part of the Judges 21:25 ministry....

Such a shame.
 

justaname

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FHII said:
Good show, Justaname... I can't help but to see Mjrhealth picks his battles. And loses.... But he doesn't really address everything I wrote... No one will touch the Holy Spirit annointed act in Acts 4....Or any other for that matter. They want to be the cloven tongues of fire but not the wonderful people who heard it. They want to be Peter and not Cornelius. Everyone thinks himself a sheperd and not a sheep. But God did call this ministry.... I see a lot of folks on this board who are a part of the Judges 21:25 ministry....

Such a shame.
The Acts 4 reminds me of the reincarnation thing. Notice how most who claim reincarnation claim they were someone famous in the past. LOL! They couldn't just be Joe Nobody, they were Helen of Troy or Caesar or somebody.
 

marksman

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mjrhealth said:
So many ready to accept mans doctrines before the truth which is Jesus Christ, and that taught by the Holy Spirit, preffering the dead lettr to the living Word, And as it says, They love it that way"
A good point. It made me think that if it is the truth that sets you free and truth can only come by the Holy Spirit and a church or individual does not believe that the Holy Spirit is active today as he was in the New Testament, then it stands to reason they are cutting themselves off from the source of truth and have to rely on man's wisdom. A good example of this is the practice of inviting someone from outside of the church to come in and run it and pay them a salary, giving them the title of pastor and ignoring the other four ministries Christ gave us to mature the saints. Christ did not make a mistake in doing this so it is obvious why maturity in the church is lacking as one ministry on its own cannot do what Christ gave five to achieve. In fact, by ignoring the other four, we are telling Christ he can go and take a hike because our way is better and we don't need his.

As is often the case, when you are convinced about anything that is not the truth, it becomes a leech and you are unable to recognise the truth when it is presented to you, especially if you have built your life and organisation on that which is not the truth and which you have to defend to the death to save face to avoid having to admit that you got it wrong, full stop, or is that period?

My antidote to that is when I am told I should believe this or believe that or this is the truth or that is the truth, is to search the scriptures and let the Holy Spirit open my eyes to the truth or what I should believe.

This is what I did when I started getting vibes about the church not fulfilling its mission and being nothing much more than a bless me club to keep everyone happy. That sent me on a two year search for what the scriptures said about the church and what the New Testament Church said and did.

The end result was that the NTC clearly pointed out that the church today was not the church, it was a religious organisation that man had invented to keep man in charge and the Holy Spirit out of things with the end result that the church is not His church as the gates of hell are prevailing against it ATM with secularism, atheism, homosexuality and the secular media banding together to silence christians and the church.
 

FHII

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justaname said:
The Acts 4 reminds me of the reincarnation thing. Notice how most who claim reincarnation claim they were someone famous in the past. LOL! They couldn't just be Joe Nobody, they were Helen of Troy or Caesar or somebody.
Yea... Um.... I was speaking about what happened at the end of Acts 4.... They gave all they had and sold their possessions to do it. Compare that to the thinking many have on this board.... They don't want to give any money to the Pastor. These folks had the Holy Spirit in them and they gave away everything. Unheard of in these parts....
 

mjrhealth

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This is just an insult...the Lord will deal with you here. Please remember:
Amazing how the truth offends. And i can only guess teh pharisees felt teh same way, thinking they had it all than to get told by the one who came to save them that they are not of His fold, the ymust of being mad, enough to kill Him even. Nothing has changed.

In all HJislove