Universal Reconciliation

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jiggyfly

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A side topic started in another thread and posted here for further discussion.

OK, in a nut shell, I believe universal reconciliation means everyone is reconciled to God, and just as Paul states in 1Cor.15:23 there is a specific order to this reconciliation. I believe in hell but also recognize that it is not eternal as KJV has mistranslated it to be, but rather is for a time that is beyond our scope of vision or understanding.
I believe that Father is indeed working all things according to His will and purpose as described in Eph. 1:11-14 and His will is that no one perish as described in 2Peter 3:9.
 

williemac

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This is worded a bit vaguely, but seems to suggest that all who are born after Adam will ultimately and eventually be new creations and have everlasting life with God. Another name used for this is universalism. It is similar to something that is referred to by some as hyper-Calvinism. What the two have in common in my opinion is that they suppose that God is in total control of everyone's destiny, and that man has no control over his own destiny.
But this kind of conclusion does not take into consideration that man has what some refer to as free will. I don't like that term because there is really no commonly agreed definition of it. Therefore any time this is discussed or debated it ultimately melts down to just what each individual thinks free will actually is. Each reply is done in the context of the person's definition.

Instead I think it is more beneficial to consider the dynamics of relationship and how this effects the interactions between man and God.

For example, in 2Cor.5:19,20, we see how reconciliation takes place. vs.19.. God has reconciled the world to Himself through the sacrifice of His Son, or at least he has done His part in the reconciliation. But the passage (vs.20) also states that there is a response necessary for the reconciliation to be complete. Furthermore, the passage reveals that God actually is pleading (NKJ) with mankind to respond. This in no way resembles anything like control on God's part.

Rather, it is obvious that man has the ability to think, reason, and respond. He can indeed recognize his own shortcomings (sin) and has the ability to either be self righteous or be humble. In Luke 18:10-14, we see that a man can exalt himself or humble himself. Furthermore, in this passage Jesus states that God will respond to either of these attitudes.

Therein lies the heart of the issue between God and His creation. The original offense was that of Lucifer, and angel who exalted himself in his own eyes to the point of forsaking his God-created role and desiring to take on his own role of god. For us, the qualification to receive grace from God is humility. He gives grace to the humble. And in that light, I believe that it is only through humility that one can and will receive life through faith, responding to His act of reconciliation. Reconciliation is conditional therefore, and NOT universal.
 
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laid renard

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Hi jiggyfly. Lol, until now I thought your name was jigglyfly :lol:

I have never heard of UR before, but have always thought in the back of my head that this scenario would be wonderful. Only the people who committed truly heinous acts while here on earth, did not get any rewards in eternity.
But then I think, why did Jesus had to die such a painful death on the cross if this was so ? If all are with God in the end...

williemac said:
This is worded a bit vaguely, but seems to suggest that all who are born after Adam will ultimately and eventually be new creations and have everlasting life with God. Another name used for this is universalism. It is similar to something that is referred to by some as hyper-Calvinism. What the two have in common in my opinion is that they suppose that God is in total control of everyone's destiny, and that man has no control over his own destiny.

But this kind of conclusion does not take into consideration that man has what some refer to as free will. I don't like that term because there is really no commonly agreed definition of it. Therefore any time this is discussed or debated it ultimately melts down to just what each individual thinks free will actually is. Each reply is done in the context of the person's definition.

Instead I think it is more beneficial to consider the dynamics of relationship and how this effects the interactions between man and God.

For example, in 2Cor.5:19,20, we see how reconciliation takes place. vs.19.. God has reconciled the world to Himself through the sacrifice of His Son, or at least he has done His part in the reconciliation. But the passage (vs.20) also states that there is a response necessary for the reconciliation to be complete. Furthermore, the passage reveals that God actually is pleading (NKJ) with mankind to respond. This in no way resembles anything like control on God's part.

Rather, it is obvious that man has the ability to think, reason, and respond. He can indeed recognize his own shortcomings (sin) and has the ability to either be self righteous or be humble. In Luke 18:10-14, we see that a man can exalt himself or humble himself. Furthermore, in this passage Jesus states that God will respond to either of these attitudes.

Therein lies the heart of the issue between God and His creation. The original offense was that of Lucifer, and angel who exalted himself in his own eyes to the point of forsaking his God-created role and desiring to take on his own role of god. For us, the qualification to receive grace from God is humility. He gives grace to the humble. And in that light, I believe that it is only through humility that one can and will receive life through faith, responding to His act of reconciliation. Reconciliation is conditional therefore, and NOT universal.
I agree with your post, but I can also see God letting us only micro-manage the smaller aspect of our life, that which will turn to dust anyway.... but as for where our spirits spend eternity, it reminds me of how we take care of our own children. We have control over their destiny do we not ? That is if we were to see them try to run out into the street with the intent to kill themselves, we would most certainly hold them back and say, "No, I refuse to let you die !"
It would most certainly be in line with God's character to not let any perish.

I am certainly straddling the fence on this one.

But I don't wish to make light of the cross, so maybe hell is merely separation from God, not a literal lake of fire. After being judged and found not in Christ, the mental anguish of being separated from the beautiful and awesome love they could have had forever with God is hell enough for the former unbeliever. Because eventually, all will believe.

Try as I might for years now, my mind just can't wrap around this.
 

afaithfulone4u

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God was reconciling us to Him through Christ and Christ died for every human being to have the opportunity to receive him and be made ALIVE by the Spirit of God. However, not all will BELIEVE and therefor RECIEVE salvation(to be restored, salvaged) by the work of the indwelling Spirit washing us with the Word to give us a new heart for God.
Jesus told Peter, unless you let me wash you.. you can have no place in me. We must allow the Word to cleanse us from all unrighteousness and seek daily by asking for God to give us the desires of our heart!

YOU probably thought I just said to ask God to give us everything our heart desires right? NO, I said to give us the DESIRES of our heart... meaning for Him to create in us a heart that desires to be PLEASING to God.

All men shall live again for Christ died so that all could live(naturally) but our rewards and living destinations will be decided by OUR plantings now for we all shall reap what we have sown. Salvation(restoration) IS conditional for only those who have faith in the Son of God can be reborn of the Spirit to reap the rewards that the LOVE of the truth and the wisdom of God can bring. All who are separated from God due to unbelief shall live in the LAKE OF FIRE(HOT Water in Torment day and night) for all eternity as they have chosen with their free will to REBEL against God's LOVE which is His commandments.
1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
KJV

As we can see from scripture that hell is on earth being those who suffer due to sinful ways and live in lower conditions being tormented continually.
Deut 32:22-25
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
KJV
Prov 11:31
31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner(REAP HELL IN THE EARTH).
KJV

Hell is being in the hands of sinful man, suffering daily in turmoil, famine, lack, fear, depression, hopelessness, poverty, hatred, anger, disasters, in lawlessness, stressed, dis-eased(disease), sickness, poor health, imprisoned either in a physical prison or in the prison of your mind of ungodly thoughts and vain imaginations that destroy us.

Heaven Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is WITHIN US. And we shall see it when we see us living a life of health, abundance, love, hope, godly ways, faith in God, escaping all the heat of hell and the torment because you stay out of the kitchen that brews up trouble. Having been set free from all these things by conforming to the image(attributes) of Christ to love the Truth of God's Word and apply it to your life to be transformed in mind and deed from one who was dead to God to one who is MADE ALIVE by the indwelling Word and Spirit to a GOOD LIFE... with persecutions from those who HATE the Word and want to kill him and those who teach in that name.
 

musterion

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Interesting discussion.

I would like to believe in U.R. as you've defined it - it's truly a thrilling thought - but I can't. There's just too much in-context Scripture in the way. Just one objection of many:

Just as it is a fact that without faith it is impossible to please God, it is also true that without faith in Christ, one is forever separated from God.

Given that fact, for U.R. to be true one of two propositions must also be true:

a. Saving faith can, will and must come after death, somehow, in order to save all who've died in unbelief.

or

b. There will come a point when God will no longer demand faith, allowing Him to save those who would gleefully spit on His Son if they had the chance, as well as all who've already died in the same state.

I consider these insurmountable challenges to U.R. but await the necessary, in context Scriptural support showing that either A or B is the will of God.

PS Good observation above how U.R. is almost the mirror image of hyper-Calvinism (which is really consistent Calvinism taken to its logical conclusions and not shied away from), with the only difference being how many end up irresistibly saved by God whether they want to be or not.
 

Dodo_David

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The concept of universal reconciliation contradicts what we are told in the latter part of the book of Revelation.

Revelation 20:11-15:
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8: "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Regarding New Jerusalem, we read, "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life." - Revelation 21:27
 
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jiggyfly

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williemac said:
This is worded a bit vaguely, but seems to suggest that all who are born after Adam will ultimately and eventually be new creations and have everlasting life with God. Another name used for this is universalism. It is similar to something that is referred to by some as hyper-Calvinism. What the two have in common in my opinion is that they suppose that God is in total control of everyone's destiny, and that man has no control over his own destiny.
But this kind of conclusion does not take into consideration that man has what some refer to as free will. I don't like that term because there is really no commonly agreed definition of it. Therefore any time this is discussed or debated it ultimately melts down to just what each individual thinks free will actually is. Each reply is done in the context of the person's definition.

Instead I think it is more beneficial to consider the dynamics of relationship and how this effects the interactions between man and God.

For example, in 2Cor.5:19,20, we see how reconciliation takes place. vs.19.. God has reconciled the world to Himself through the sacrifice of His Son, or at least he has done His part in the reconciliation. But the passage (vs.20) also states that there is a response necessary for the reconciliation to be complete. Furthermore, the passage reveals that God actually is pleading (NKJ) with mankind to respond. This in no way resembles anything like control on God's part.

Rather, it is obvious that man has the ability to think, reason, and respond. He can indeed recognize his own shortcomings (sin) and has the ability to either be self righteous or be humble. In Luke 18:10-14, we see that a man can exalt himself or humble himself. Furthermore, in this passage Jesus states that God will respond to either of these attitudes.

Therein lies the heart of the issue between God and His creation. The original offense was that of Lucifer, and angel who exalted himself in his own eyes to the point of forsaking his God-created role and desiring to take on his own role of god. For us, the qualification to receive grace from God is humility. He gives grace to the humble. And in that light, I believe that it is only through humility that one can and will receive life through faith, responding to His act of reconciliation. Reconciliation is conditional therefore, and NOT universal.
Not universal? Don't you believe that Paul really meant what he wrote?

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:22 (KJV)

9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names,10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 2:9-11 (NLT)

For the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.
Romans 14:11 (NLT)

9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure.10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth.
Eph 1:9-10 (NLT)

19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
Col 1:19-20 (NLT)

Here are a few but there are many others. I am curious what you believe they mean.

musterion said:
Interesting discussion.

I would like to believe in U.R. as you've defined it - it's truly a thrilling thought - but I can't. There's just too much in-context Scripture in the way. Just one objection of many:

Just as it is a fact that without faith it is impossible to please God, it is also true that without faith in Christ, one is forever separated from God.

Given that fact, for U.R. to be true one of two propositions must also be true:

a. Saving faith can, will and must come after death, somehow, in order to save all who've died in unbelief.

or

b. There will come a point when God will no longer demand faith, allowing Him to save those who would gleefully spit on His Son if they had the chance, as well as all who've already died in the same state.

I consider these insurmountable challenges to U.R. but await the necessary, in context Scriptural support showing that either A or B is the will of God.

PS Good observation above how U.R. is almost the mirror image of hyper-Calvinism (which is really consistent Calvinism taken to its logical conclusions and not shied away from), with the only difference being how many end up irresistibly saved by God whether they want to be or not.
Who said anything about some being saved whether they want it or not? I surely don't recall saying or even implying anything to the like. I did however post some scriptures which support what I believe. Still waiting for your scriptures though.

Dodo_David said:
The concept of universal reconciliation contradicts what we are told in the latter part of the book of Revelation.

Revelation 20:11-15:

Revelation 21:8: "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Regarding New Jerusalem, we read, "Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life." - Revelation 21:27
So where is the contradiction? Have you noticed verse 25 in the same chapter?

musterion said:
Yup. Lots of others, too.
So where are they? Originally we discussed you posting scripture that supported your statement in the other thread, did you forget?
 

Raeneske

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jiggyfly said:
Not universal? Don't you believe that Paul really meant what he wrote?

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:22 (KJV)

9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names,10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Phil 2:9-11 (NLT)

For the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.
Romans 14:11 (NLT)

9 God has now revealed to us his mysterious plan regarding Christ, a plan to fulfill his own good pleasure.10 And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ—everything in heaven and on earth.
Eph 1:9-10 (NLT)

19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
Col 1:19-20 (NLT)

Here are a few but there are many others. I am curious what you believe they mean.

Who said anything about some being saved whether they want it or not? I surely don't recall saying or even implying anything to the like. I did however post some scriptures which support what I believe. Still waiting for your scriptures though.


So where is the contradiction? Have you noticed verse 25 in the same chapter?

So where are they? Originally we discussed you posting scripture that supported your statement in the other thread, did you forget?
I also do not believe in an eternally burning hell, as the world teaches it. You started this thread quoting (I believe yourself) that the KJV has hell mistranslated. The words are correct in the KJV. Man's interpretation upon it is incorrect. Some take the strong language used in the verses (for example, found in Revelation) to be very literal. When you encounter such an error, present the truth surrounding those verses.

Revelation 20:7-10 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:9-12 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It would be good to present to people that the lake of fire and brimstone surrounds the camp of the saints, and is supposed to burn for ever and ever (not for eternity, but for a long time). Show people that if they believe this is for all eternity, then the wicked shall be burning for all eternity in the presence of the saints, the angels, and in Jesus. Being in the presence of Jesus would also contradict the meaning of what some people believe, that they would have an eternity without God's presence. The scriptures clearly paint the picture of them being in Jesus's presence when the wicked are burning.

Now, as someone who does not believe in hell the way the world does, let me post this:

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

There cannot be universal salvation. Notice that those that are burned shall be as stubble. Isaiah 5:24 talks about how the wicked shall be devoured by fire as well, the same way the fire devours the stubble, and flame consumes the chaff. Devour in this sense with fire refers to destroying and/or consuming. And consume here means to totally destroy. The wicked shall be totally destroyed. And verse 3 makes it plain, that the righteous shall be walking on the ashes of the wicked, and that there shall be neither root nor branch.

Universal reconciliation is not true. (See also Isaiah 5:20-25, Nahum 1:9-10, Ezekiel 28:18-19 (which talks about Satan)). There are more verses of course. For example, simple verses such as Romans 6:23. The wages of sin is not eternal life, but death. Therefore, how can the wicked live eternally, after choosing a life of sin? They shall die, not live for all eternity.
 
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jiggyfly

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Raeneske said:
I also do not believe in an eternally burning hell, as the world teaches it. You started this thread quoting (I believe yourself) that the KJV has hell mistranslated. The words are correct in the KJV. Man's interpretation upon it is incorrect. Some take the strong language used in the verses (for example, found in Revelation) to be very literal. When you encounter such an error, present the truth surrounding those verses.

Revelation 20:7-10 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:9-12 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

It would be good to present to people that the lake of fire and brimstone surrounds the camp of the saints, and is supposed to burn for ever and ever (not for eternity, but for a long time). Show people that if they believe this is for all eternity, then the wicked shall be burning for all eternity in the presence of the saints, the angels, and in Jesus. Being in the presence of Jesus would also contradict the meaning of what some people believe, that they would have an eternity without God's presence. The scriptures clearly paint the picture of them being in Jesus's presence when the wicked are burning.

Now, as someone who does not believe in hell the way the world does, let me post this:

Malachi 4:1-3 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

There cannot be universal salvation. Notice that those that are burned shall be as stubble. Isaiah 5:24 talks about how the wicked shall be devoured by fire as well, the same way the fire devours the stubble, and flame consumes the chaff. Devour in this sense with fire refers to destroying and/or consuming. And consume here means to totally destroy. The wicked shall be totally destroyed. And verse 3 makes it plain, that the righteous shall be walking on the ashes of the wicked, and that there shall be neither root nor branch.

Universal reconciliation is not true. (See also Isaiah 5:20-25, Nahum 1:9-10, Ezekiel 28:18-19 (which talks about Satan)). There are more verses of course. For example, simple verses such as Romans 6:23. The wages of sin is not eternal life, but death. Therefore, how can the wicked live eternally, after choosing a life of sin? They shall die, not live for all eternity.
Do you know the Greek word used in the manuscripts that was mistranslated as "for ever and ever"?

Seems you believe in annihilation rather than endless torment but I believe the scriptures make a very sound case for a universal reconciliation with 10 times more scripture than annihilation and endless torment combined.
 

Wormwood

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How is "forever and ever" mistranslated? The phrase is eis aionias aionion which means "into ages of ages" or into eterinity of eternities. Not really a mistranslation there. Now it could be argued that this is dealing with an eternal reminder of the annihilation of the wicked, but I dont think anyone would claim this isnt talking about eternity.

Also, I dont think that "every knee will bow" has anything to do with all people being universally reconciled to God. This has to do with the subjection of all creation to the Lordship of Christ...not that all are going to be redeemed.

Finally, the Romans 5 should be taken in context. Yes, Christ's work has the power to undo all that Adam's work did. Yet, I dont know how someone can read the book of Romans and not come to the conclusion that this redemption is only available to those who believe (cf. Rom 10). I dont think the Apostles would have risked their lives to preach a message of universal salvation. Paul told those who rejected his message, "Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles." (Acts 13:46b)
 

jiggyfly

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Wormwood said:
How is "forever and ever" mistranslated? The phrase is eis aionias aionion which means "into ages of ages" or into eterinity of eternities. Not really a mistranslation there. Now it could be argued that this is dealing with an eternal reminder of the annihilation of the wicked, but I dont think anyone would claim this isnt talking about eternity.

Also, I dont think that "every knee will bow" has anything to do with all people being universally reconciled to God. This has to do with the subjection of all creation to the Lordship of Christ...not that all are going to be redeemed.

Finally, the Romans 5 should be taken in context. Yes, Christ's work has the power to undo all that Adam's work did. Yet, I dont know how someone can read the book of Romans and not come to the conclusion that this redemption is only available to those who believe (cf. Rom 10). I dont think the Apostles would have risked their lives to preach a message of universal salvation. Paul told those who rejected his message, "Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles." (Acts 13:46b)
How long was Jonah in the belly of the fish? Same Greek word used in the Septuagint is aion translated from the Hebrew word olam. Was he there for ever?

What is eternity of eternities mean? Does such a phrase even make sense? Aion is normally an age or an indefinite time.


Paul also said that eventually all Israel will be saved.
 

musterion

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jiggyfly said:
So where are they? Originally we discussed you posting scripture that supported your statement in the other thread, did you forget?
Nope, I haven't forgotten. I'm just sitting back for awhile and see if the points I'd make get posted by someone else. So far, some of them are. I'll wait until it dies down some. Also because it's easy to lose track of who said what in a thread like this.

And lest you forget, I invited you to make your case first. I know your nutshell summay is hardly all you could post on U.R. so I'm waiting to see more from you first. Saves time that way.

Who said anything about some being saved whether they want it or not?
Never said YOU believed that, but I have seen where some louder voices in universalism apparently do...it seems strongly implied, anyway.

So if I may take a guess, do you believe the love and grace of God will eventually win over all who died without a love of Christ, leaving - in the end - none unsaved? Because if so I have a few verses in mind to bring up specifically in response to that. If that's not what you believe, either, nevermind.

So as to the A and B I raised above - which option is valid, in your view? I ask because I still don't know which exact brand of U.R. you hold to and I want to frame my responses properly instead of replying to something you don't actually believe. Again, it saves time. I'm sure you agree.
 

Wormwood

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Jiggy,

First, of all, the phrase is not aion. It is aionias aionian. Yes, it can be translated "age." However, even this translations carries the concept of eternity when it is talking about the "age" to come. Yet, we see in many contexts in both biblical and extra biblical literature that this term is translated as eternity. I can do a word study on it in the near future when time permits, but a word does not always have only one meaning. This particular context is "ages of ages" which certainly carries the concept of eternity.

Also, the Romans text should be taken in context. Paul is certainly NOT saying ALL Israel will be saved (as in every person). The text here is talking about the MANNER in which Israelites will be saved (by seeing the Gentiles come to faith). Thus the passage should be translated "in this way all Israel will be saved." So this is like me saying, "By faith in the preaching of the Gospel, all people will be saved." I am not saying all people, as in every single person, will be saved. Rather, I am saying, "This is the manner every saved person will be saved." This is clearly Paul's intent as he has just gotten through saying that many have "stumbled over the stumbling stone" and that he would wish himself accursed if he could save all his brothers.
 

jiggyfly

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Wormwood said:
Jiggy,

First, of all, the phrase is not aion. It is aionias aionian. Yes, it can be translated "age." However, even this translations carries the concept of eternity when it is talking about the "age" to come. Yet, we see in many contexts in both biblical and extra biblical literature that this term is translated as eternity. I can do a word study on it in the near future when time permits, but a word does not always have only one meaning. This particular context is "ages of ages" which certainly carries the concept of eternity.

Also, the Romans text should be taken in context. Paul is certainly NOT saying ALL Israel will be saved (as in every person). The text here is talking about the MANNER in which Israelites will be saved (by seeing the Gentiles come to faith). Thus the passage should be translated "in this way all Israel will be saved." So this is like me saying, "By faith in the preaching of the Gospel, all people will be saved." I am not saying all people, as in every single person, will be saved. Rather, I am saying, "This is the manner every saved person will be saved." This is clearly Paul's intent as he has just gotten through saying that many have "stumbled over the stumbling stone" and that he would wish himself accursed if he could save all his brothers.
Aion is the root word, just as alam is the root word for olam in Hebrew texts.
How about posting the whole context and we can discuss it more in depth and after you complete your word study we can discuss it further. I have many reference study tools in my personal library too so looking forward to an in depth discussion with you.

musterion said:
Nope, I haven't forgotten. I'm just sitting back for awhile and see if the points I'd make get posted by someone else. So far, some of them are. I'll wait until it dies down some. Also because it's easy to lose track of who said what in a thread like this.

And lest you forget, I invited you to make your case first. I know your nutshell summay is hardly all you could post on U.R. so I'm waiting to see more from you first. Saves time that way.


Never said YOU believed that, but I have seen where some louder voices in universalism apparently do...it seems strongly implied, anyway.

So if I may take a guess, do you believe the love and grace of God will eventually win over all who died without a love of Christ, leaving - in the end - none unsaved? Because if so I have a few verses in mind to bring up specifically in response to that. If that's not what you believe, either, nevermind.

So as to the A and B I raised above - which option is valid, in your view? I ask because I still don't know which exact brand of U.R. you hold to and I want to frame my responses properly instead of replying to something you don't actually believe. Again, it saves time. I'm sure you agree.
I agree it is difficult to have a pinpointed discussion like this in an open forum and it will probably be easier once things settle and others are disinterested.
I made my basic summarization of scriptures supporting my belief of UR and now I am waiting for your supporting scriptures of your statement; "and that faith must be exercised in this life for there's no second chance after death."
I am ready to discuss this further and take a good look at more scriptures as the discussion moves forward but take as much time as you need to round up the scriptures that you feel support your belief and we can discuss this further. Thanks for keeping things civil and peaceful, it is usually very heated and results in ridicule in a thread like this. :)
 

musterion

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jiggyfly said:
I am waiting for your supporting scriptures of your statement; ...there's no second chance after death."
You're asking me to make a positive case for something that is nowhere contradicted in Scripture but is demonstrated in several places. I can offer you several verses showing the urgency of believing the truth one hears upon his hearing it, but you've already seen and rejected some of them. What I cannot provide is any verse or passage showing or suggesting there IS a 2nd chance after death, but that's your job. The duty of making a positive case for U.R. is yours, but you've not made it yet. Your nutshell doesn't cut it (I know you know that) and I know you have more than that you could post.

It's time you break out the big guns.

I contend there is zero Scriptural support for the belief that a person

( a ) can hear and understand something to which God expects a response of faith,
( b ) chooses not to believe it,
( c ) dies,
( d ) receives a 2nd chance to exercise the faith in he'd previously refused, and
( e ) ends up forgiven just as if he'd originally obeyed God during his life on earth.

Let me say again, I would LOVE for that to be true! So I put it to you bluntly but respectfully: Please list all the passages you believe show the opportunity of a post-mortem exercise of saving faith for those who were deliberately faithless in this life.

This thread was started by you to make a positive case for U.R. and you haven't yet, so I don't think I'm asking too much. If you don't want to, just say so.

P.S. I wholeheartedly agree that religion is an ugly tyrant, possibly the ugliest of all.
 

day

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In the story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar (Lk 16:19-30), Jesus says that a gulf is between Paradise and Hades that cannot be crossed once a person is there and the only way given by which one could avoid Hades was the Scriptures available in this life. That would seem to exclude any second chances.

In Matt 25:31-46, Jesus describes the Last Judgement when people are divided as sheep and goats and the goats are sent into eternal punishment because they did not care for their neighbor. If they were judged on how this life was lived, how are they to go back and live it again differently in order to gain a different judgement?
 

musterion

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day said:
In the story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar (Lk 16:19-30), Jesus says that a gulf is between Paradise and Hades that cannot be crossed once a person is there and the only way given by which one could avoid Hades was the Scriptures available in this life. That would seem to exclude any second chances.

In Matt 25:31-46, Jesus describes the Last Judgement when people are divided as sheep and goats and the goats are sent into eternal punishment because they did not care for their neighbor. If they were judged on how this life was lived, how are they to go back and live it again differently in order to gain a different judgement?
Luke 16:19-30 is a parable, therefore very likely not a literal description of the state of the dead. I wouldn't hang my hat on it, anyway.

Good point on Matthew 25.
 

laid renard

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I have admitted to at times vacillating back and forth. But the times I do start to ponder the possibility of UC are few and far between. I think I, on rare occasions, find myself doing so because in the past I had suffered from the fear of the unpardonable sin which lasted for over a decade. I have since been healed of that.
But God Himself says we are to forgive our enemies. That, and the memories of what I suffered for so long has made it almost impossible for me to believe that hell is eternal physical pain. That does not sound like God. I tend to think it is mental anguish instead.
 

jiggyfly

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musterion said:
You're asking me to make a positive case for something that is nowhere contradicted in Scripture but is demonstrated in several places. I can offer you several verses showing the urgency of believing the truth one hears upon his hearing it, but you've already seen and rejected some of them. What I cannot provide is any verse or passage showing or suggesting there IS a 2nd chance after death, but that's your job. The duty of making a positive case for U.R. is yours, but you've not made it yet. Your nutshell doesn't cut it (I know you know that) and I know you have more than that you could post.

It's time you break out the big guns.

I contend there is zero Scriptural support for the belief that a person

( a ) can hear and understand something to which God expects a response of faith,
( b ) chooses not to believe it,
( c ) dies,
( d ) receives a 2nd chance to exercise the faith in he'd previously refused, and
( e ) ends up forgiven just as if he'd originally obeyed God during his life on earth.

Let me say again, I would LOVE for that to be true! So I put it to you bluntly but respectfully: Please list all the passages you believe show the opportunity of a post-mortem exercise of saving faith for those who were deliberately faithless in this life.

This thread was started by you to make a positive case for U.R. and you haven't yet, so I don't think I'm asking too much. If you don't want to, just say so.

P.S. I wholeheartedly agree that religion is an ugly tyrant, possibly the ugliest of all.
Still waiting for some scripture that you said you had that supported your statement. I will respond to you once you have posted it/them.