The Wonders in the Heavens

daq said:

Believe it or not I actually did read all of your post but simply did not quote all of it. So tell me what do you think actually happened at the Cross of Messiah at Golgotha? There was darkness over all the earth from the sixth hour to the ninth hour and the Scripture clearly foretells by the mouth of David that many strong bulls, bulls of Bashan, ravening lions, and dogs were present at the crucifixion of Yeshua; even the same word from Isaiah 34, r'emiym, ("unicorns" KJV) is in the passage:

Psalms 22:11-31 KJV
11. Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12. Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19. But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23. Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the Lord that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28. For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29. All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30. A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Likewise the following Acts 4 passage clearly proclaims that Psalm 2 is also fulfilled:

Acts 4:23-28 KJV
23. And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them.
24. And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25. Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26. The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28. For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Psalms 2:1-12 KJV
1. Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2. The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord, and against his anointed, saying,
3. Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7. I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my son; this day have I begotten thee.
8. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. [Re: Revelation 2:27 KJV]
10. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12. Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Likewise in Acts 2 at Shavuot-Pentecost Peter proclaims that the Joel prophecy quoted above my post herein was already fulfilled and even quotes the portion with the sun being turned into darkness and the moon being turned into blood. The crowd does not deny that these things had happened because they all saw them when Yeshua was crucified. The crowd therefore is cut to the heart and many repented:

Acts 2:15-38 KJV
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24. Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26. Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27. Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35. Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What then happened at Golgotha according to your understanding of "the sun having been darkened", (darkness over all the earth from the sixth hour to the ninth hour of the crucifixion) and "the moon having been turned into blood" Circa 30AD? Was that also an "all out nuclear war" in the first fulfillment of 30AD according to the clear statements of the Holy Spirit through Peter in Acts 2, which clearly quotes the same passage from Joel 2, and from where likewise Revelation 6:12 is obviously taken? Or do you suppose that both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, the Chief Priests and Sadducees, the Pharisees, Elders, Scribes, and the people of Israel were all gathered together to plant a "suitcase mini-nuke" at Skull Hill? :lol:

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What is the conection between your question and my post?

guysmith said:

Hi Arnie,

This is one possibility. There are a few possible explanations and this is one of those things that we probably won't get an answer too until Christ's advent. However, your observations are about events which take place on TDOL. The wonders in the heavens (sun black / moon red) takes place before the TDOL.

Joel 2:31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

I know you spend time pondering these things. Do you have any ideas on what may cause the light of the sun to be blocked out?

Guy

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At times I feel it could be man - made .... as in nuclear explosions .... that could certainly darken the sun for a while .... Oppenheimer and Einstein didn't use the words "the sky might roll up" when they were working on the Manhattan Project ... but they certainly had fears a nuclear blast might .... "burn the atmosphere" .... ie: burn all the oxygen in the sky in a self feeding chain reaction.

Turns out it only "burned the atmosphere" within a radius of the blast .... actually that is how most of the destruction occurs ... next time you watch a nuke video you will first see a quick blue flash spread out all around the countryside .... that is the oxygen being burned .... and in that split second everything (the surrounding air) becomes a vacuum ..... people explode (literally) and buildings explode because the pressure in them has to equalize with the surrounding vacuum

Multiple nukes around the world would likely be even worse .... but not complete .... if all the oxy was burned it would be the end of life and revelation says some will live.

I find many things in revelation impossible to comprehend in mankind terms so I take the easy way out and assume it must be mostly supernatural ..... in the 1980's if Russia unleashed all its nukes on North America .... i would know it was the Russians doing it .... not God or the devil.

I also take many things literal in revelation so i find myself on both sides of the fence sometimes

I also notice many things are description of things John sees happening "in heaven" ... and the rest are happening "on earth" ...

I have also considered God could park a large asteroid between the earth and the sun for a few day of darkness .... that would also alter gravitational pull and cause earthquakes ... or pull some mountains down etc.

However He does it is hard to know ...... certainly He is trying to get the attention of the earths inhabitants in a profound way on TDOL .... yet many will still reject Him .... I find that more incredible than the signs themselves.

Eric E Stahl said:

What is the conection between your question and my post?

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How can you, Retro, and the rest not see the elephant in the room?
This is the topic which included only one passage of Scripture:

guysmith said:

Revelation 6:12
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Many years ago, when I first read this I was under the impression that a destructive event would occur that would put large amounts of debris into the atmosphere, so much so that it would block out the light of the sun and the moon. From the beginning I never felt comfortable with that assessment. The problem was that if there was enough debris in the atmosphere to totally block out the sun, then the moon would be blocked out completely also.

I have since changed my assessment and today instead of one event I believe it is possible that it is a combination of two events that accounts for this phenomena.

1. The first is a destructive event that upheaves enough debris into the atmosphere to reduce the light of the moon.
2. The second event is where something large enough to completely eclipse the suns light from the earth will be positioned in front of the sun but outside the orbit of the moon.

In Yehoshua,
Guy Smith

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Revelation 6:12 KJV
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Joel 2:31-32 KJV
31. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Acts 2:15-21 KJV
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If Acts 2 has already stated that these things occurred then who are you to come along and suggest they did not happen while proceeding to interpret the same events as an all out nuclear war? If you want to say these events might happen again then do you not suppose the second time around should be fulfilled in the same way as the first occurrence found in the Scripture itself? Yet it is obviously not possible that there was an all out nuclear war in Acts or at the Cross of Messiah when there was darkness over all the earth. Or does your god constantly change with you and your opinions? Therefore your interpretation is completely unacceptable to any true disciple of the Word because in addition to the inconsistencies your interpretation excludes the possibilty of supernal fulfillment in the lives of every believer who lived before the last hundred years of history when nuclear warheads were first invented. Your interpretations are the end result of forking over too many of your hard earned twenty-spot all-seeing eye of horus illuminati alan greenspan green-back-bucks for that bookshelf behind your desk overstacked and overpacked with paperback prophecy manuals full of food sacrificed to the idols of the modern shepherd prophets who care nothing for the truth found in the Word but rather selling their books, b-movies, video games, and armageddon war maps of the middle east.

Shalom, daq.

daq said:

How can you, Retro, and the rest not see the elephant in the room?
This is the topic which included only one passage of Scripture:



Revelation 6:12 KJV
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Joel 2:31-32 KJV
31. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Acts 2:15-21 KJV
15. For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18. And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19. And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If Acts 2 has already stated that these things occurred then who are you to come along and suggest they did not happen while proceeding to interpret the same events as an all out nuclear war? If you want to say these events might happen again then do you not suppose the second time around should be fulfilled in the same way as the first occurrence found in the Scripture itself? Yet it is obviously not possible that there was an all out nuclear war in Acts or at the Cross of Messiah when there was darkness over all the earth. Or does your god constantly change with you and your opinions? Therefore your interpretation is completely unacceptable to any true disciple of the Word because in addition to the inconsistencies your interpretation excludes the possibilty of supernal fulfillment in the lives of every believer who lived before the last hundred years of history when nuclear warheads were first invented. Your interpretations are the end result of forking over too many of your hard earned twenty-spot all-seeing eye of horus illuminati alan greenspan green-back-bucks for that bookshelf behind your desk overstacked and overpacked with paperback prophecy manuals full of food sacrificed to the idols of the modern shepherd prophets who care nothing for the truth found in the Word but rather selling their books, b-movies, video games, and armageddon war maps of the middle east.

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I'm going to take a slightly different approach, here.
You're assumption is that Acts 2 has already stated these things occurred at that time (in the early first century A.D.) Thus, you believe that Acts 2 mentioning Joel 2:31-32, and consequently Revelation 6:12, fulfill these prophecies.

This is your fatal flaw. The only way that these prophecies could be fulfilled is (1) if Revelation 6:12 was written earlier than commonly accepted, and (2) if the REST of the sixth seal of which Revelation 6:12 is just one short verse was already fulfilled in some way. In point of order, the crucifixion did NOT fulfill this passage:

Revelation 6:12-17

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
KJV

However, we have NO EVIDENCE IN SCRIPTURE or RECORDED IN HISTORY for (1) the moon becoming as blood, (2) the stars falling from the sky ("heaven") to the earth, (3) the sky ("heaven") departing like a scroll, (4) all the people hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains, or (5) all the people saying to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Furthermore, there's a technical difference between the "sun becoming black as sackcloth of (goat's) hair" and "there was darkness over all the land" or "the sun was darkened."

Matthew 27:45-46

45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
KJV

Mark 15:33-34
33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
KJV

Luke 23:44-45
44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
KJV

To say that the "sun was darkened" or that "there was darkness over all the land," implies that the sun was obscured only. That is typically what happened when the clouds become too thick.

To say that the "sun became black as sackcloth of hair" is a whole DIFFERENT kind of obscurity. It suggests that the disk of the sun is seen, but it is a black disk instead of its usual yellow, white-light face. That doesn't happen with the thickening of the clouds. That is usually what is seen in a TOTAL SOLAR ECLIPSE, when the moon obscures the sun! The problem is, this cannot be what happened at the crucifixion because the Passover occurred on the 14th day of Nisan! Because the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, that puts the holiday at the FULL MOON of the month, not the NEW moon which is always the 1st of the Jewish month (Ro'sh Chodesh)! However, solar eclipses ONLY occur when the moon is a NEW moon!

And while an earthquake did occur, (although an argument from silence) one would think that, IF this were the fulfillment of the Joel prophecy (and consequently the Revelation prophecy), then the moon should have been at least mentioned! Nor are we told about any "stars falling to earth!" Those facts must be explained away by the preterist. Hence the need to say that "Rachel was the moon and the stars of heaven are the saints."

Thus, the crucifixion does NOT fulfill that prophecy! And, if the crucifixion did not fulfill that prophecy, then Acts is NOT saying that the WHOLE prophecy was fulfilled! It is saying that THAT PORTION of the prophecy, namely, the "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy" PORTION, was beginning to be fulfilled! Furthermore, Peter says that this prophecy is in answer to their statement: "These men are full of new wine," for Peter begins with the response, "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day."

That leaves the other portion of the prophecy YET TO BE FULFILLED! Therefore, the CONTINUATION of this prophecy and that of Revelation is YET TO OCCUR in the future!

I understand that you can say that we assume that not all of what was quoted was fulfilled in Acts 2, but that is YOUR opinion (to which you're entitled, by the way). But, sometimes more is quoted than needed for the simple reason of making sure that all of the listeners remember from where this prophecy comes. It gives the listeners some connection to the prophecy (which was NOT known by "book, chapter, and verse" back then)!

So, the "elephant in the room" is merely a "PINK elephant" that only you see and Arnie, Eric and I don't because IT'S NOT REALLY THERE!

As Night at Noon Day

God will send a permanent solar eclipse before Armageddon to judge the antichrist kingdom.

Revelation 16:10-11
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Isaiah 13:9-11
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Isaiah 16:1-5
1 Send ye the lamb to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.
3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4 Let mine outcasts dwell with thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.

(((Jesus the Lamb will sit on the throne in the kingdom)))
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Isaiah 24:21-23
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones((Satan)) that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Habakkuk 3:11-13
11The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

(((Armageddon)))
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people, even for salvation with thine anointed; thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.

Joel 3:14-16
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

Amos 8:9
7 The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.
8 Shall not the land tremble for this, and every one mourn that dwelleth therein? and it shall rise up wholly as a flood; and it shall be cast out and drowned, as by the flood of Egypt.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Job 38:13-15
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

Habakkuk 3:11-13
11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went(from view), and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
12 Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.
13 Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people(Israel), even for salvation with thine anointed(Saints); thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.(To Armageddon)



Isaiah 60:1-2, 19-20
[SIZE=10pt]1[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]2[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. [/SIZE]



19The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.
20Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

The solar eclipse over Israel will continue through the kingdom age.

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, daq.


I'm going to take a slightly different approach, here.
You're assumption is that Acts 2 has already stated these things occurred at that time (in the early first century A.D.) Thus, you believe that Acts 2 mentioning Joel 2:31-32, and consequently Revelation 6:12, fulfill these prophecies.

This is your fatal flaw. The only way that these prophecies could be fulfilled is (1) if Revelation 6:12 was written earlier than commonly accepted, and (2) if the REST of the sixth seal of which Revelation 6:12 is just one short verse was already fulfilled in some way. In point of order, the crucifixion did NOT fulfill this passage:

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You have already been shown how that Yochanan the Immerser very likely received the Revelation of Yeshua in the prison of Herod and wrote it down shortly before these things were to come to pass. This has been offered in more than one thread; the most recent of which was "Yeshua Says" (Posts #43-#58) wherein you read what was put forth, quoted it, and responded to it. However, you do not believe the clear emphatic statements of the Master concerning Yochanan; how that among men born of women he was the greatest of all the Tanak prophets, and how that the Torah and the Prophets all prophesied until Yochanan, meaning that he not only prophesied but was the first wherein the final fulfillments of the prophets began to come to pass, (even in him because he was the ultimate fulfillment of the mashiyach ha-Qowre' and forerunner of Mowshiya` Yeshua as was prophesied in Isaiah 45). Likewise you have chosen not to receive the statement from the Master that, "If you will receive it, this was Elijah who was for to come" because you reject the authorship of Yochanan of the book of the Revelation of Yeshua which was signified and sent through the messenger of Yeshua who is Yochanan the Immerser himself. You therefore say that you believe the words of the Master but in reality you do not because he states that Yochanan is the greatest of the Tanak prophets but you proclaim that there are no writings to come from the greatest prophet to come before Yeshua. How can Yochanan be the greatest Tanak prophet yet have no writings? You give lip service only to the statements of Messiah because when it comes down to deciding between faithfulness in what he has stated and your own doctrines of the flesh; you deny the doctrines of Yeshua with your false doctrine of a physical world empire global millennial kingdom with yourself ruling over the "lesser brethren sheeples" in your physical fantasy kingdom age to come. As has been said before; if you do not believe the statements of Messiah then it is no surprise that you do not believe any of his apostles or disciples, like Peter in Acts 2:16-20, or Luke who states that Yochanan would go forth in the Spirit and power of Elijah, (Luke 1:17) which is the Spirit anointing of a mashiyach, and which words were stated to have been delivered through the messenger Gabriel whom you also therefore do not believe.

Retrobyter said:

However, we have NO EVIDENCE IN SCRIPTURE or RECORDED IN HISTORY for (1) the moon becoming as blood, (2) the stars falling from the sky ("heaven") to the earth, (3) the sky ("heaven") departing like a scroll, (4) all the people hiding themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains, or (5) all the people saying to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

Furthermore, there's a technical difference between the "sun becoming black as sackcloth of (goat's) hair" and "there was darkness over all the land" or "the sun was darkened."

To say that the "sun was darkened" or that "there was darkness over all the land," implies that the sun was obscured only. That is typically what happened when the clouds become too thick.

To say that the "sun became black as sackcloth of hair" is a whole DIFFERENT kind of obscurity. It suggests that the disk of the sun is seen, but it is a black disk instead of its usual yellow, white-light face. That doesn't happen with the thickening of the clouds. That is usually what is seen in a TOTAL SOLAR ECLIPSE, when the moon obscures the sun! The problem is, this cannot be what happened at the crucifixion because the Passover occurred on the 14th day of Nisan! Because the Jewish calendar is a lunar calendar, that puts the holiday at the FULL MOON of the month, not the NEW moon which is always the 1st of the Jewish month (Ro'sh Chodesh)! However, solar eclipses ONLY occur when the moon is a NEW moon!

And while an earthquake did occur, (although an argument from silence) one would think that, IF this were the fulfillment of the Joel prophecy (and consequently the Revelation prophecy), then the moon should have been at least mentioned! Nor are we told about any "stars falling to earth!" Those facts must be explained away by the preterist. Hence the need to say that "Rachel was the moon and the stars of heaven are the saints."

Thus, the crucifixion does NOT fulfill that prophecy! And, if the crucifixion did not fulfill that prophecy, then Acts is NOT saying that the WHOLE prophecy was fulfilled! It is saying that THAT PORTION of the prophecy, namely, the "And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy" PORTION, was beginning to be fulfilled! Furthermore, Peter says that this prophecy is in answer to their statement: "These men are full of new wine," for Peter begins with the response, "For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day."

That leaves the other portion of the prophecy YET TO BE FULFILLED! Therefore, the CONTINUATION of this prophecy and that of Revelation is YET TO OCCUR in the future!

I understand that you can say that we assume that not all of what was quoted was fulfilled in Acts 2, but that is YOUR opinion (to which you're entitled, by the way). But, sometimes more is quoted than needed for the simple reason of making sure that all of the listeners remember from where this prophecy comes. It gives the listeners some connection to the prophecy (which was NOT known by "book, chapter, and verse" back then)!

So, the "elephant in the room" is merely a "PINK elephant" that only you see and Arnie, Eric and I don't because IT'S NOT REALLY THERE!

Click to expand...

Are the words of the Master in the Way to Golgotha simply more non-existent "pink elephants" to you?

Revelation 6:12-16 KJV
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15. And the kings of the earth, [1] and the great men, [2] and the rich men, [3] and the chief captains, [4] and the mighty men, [5] and every bondman, [6] and every free man, [7] hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16. And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Luke 23:26-30 KJV
26. And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
27. And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
28. But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29. For, behold, the days are coming, ["Hoti idou, erchontai hemerai" - "For, behold, come the days" (now commencing)] in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
30. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

You say no one ever saw these things with their eyes but the Scripture tells you that you will not be seeing these things with your eyes of the flesh because "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of heaven is within you" (Luke 17:21 KJV) according to the doctrine of the Master. And now, since you also have so many times over rejected those statements from the Master, you have your own "seven kings" of your own the earth-land-soil which have hidden themselves in your own broken cistern, caves, and darkened caverns; like a pit wherein is no water. :lol:

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

Jeremiah 2:11-13 KJV
11. Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit. ["the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" John 6:63]
12. Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the Lord.
13. For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

You have hewn yourself out a broken cistern that can hold no water . . . :mellow:

Eric E Stahl said:

Fire in the Sky 2
Arnie,
God will cause man to fight a nuclear war, which will destroy and thin the atmosphere and let more meteors impact the earth.

<snip>
[SIZE=10pt]2 Peter 3:10[/SIZE]–15 KJV
[SIZE=10pt]10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt].[/SIZE]
<snip>

Click to expand...

Eric ..... At times like this I read those couple of verses of Peter and it is describing the destruction of the earth .... and at the same time tells us that God will be replacing it with the new heaven and new earth.

I wonder if that is how we should be looking at it in the "big picture"

God blocks the sun etc .... but when he comes down , God himself will be the source of light if we jump ahead to Rev 21:23 .

I know it is not as cut and dried as that , a lot still has to happen in Revelation between the sun going dark , and God coming down

Not really sure if that is what is happening ..... but looking exclusively at the above verses from Peter it could be read that way.

Just some thoughts

Arnie Manitoba said:

Eric ..... At times like this I read those couple of verses of Peter and it is describing the destruction of the earth .... and at the same time tells us that God will be replacing it with the new heaven and new earth.

I wonder if that is how we should be looking at it in the "big picture"

God blocks the sun etc .... but when he comes down , God himself will be the source of light if we jump ahead to Rev 21:23 .

I know it is not as cut and dried as that , a lot still has to happen in Revelation between the sun going dark , and God coming down

Not really sure if that is what is happening ..... but looking exclusively at the above verses from Peter it could be read that way.

Just some thoughts

Click to expand...

Arnie,

The following is why God sends the fire on mankind;

Ezekiel 39:6-8
6And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

7So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

8Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Shalom, daq.

Well, actually the word "erchontai" is simply the third person, plural form of the present tense of "erchomai." That means that just as "erchomai" can mean either "I come" or "I am coming" or "I go" or "I am going," so this word (with heemerai) means "days come" or "days are coming" or "days go" or "days are going," depending on the context. It doesn't mean the "days are now commencing." But, let's say for argument that it does. All these verses tell us is that we are BEGINNING to enter such days. It doesn't say HOW LONG those days will last! Furthermore, Yeshua` in Luke 23:30 SPECIFICALLY states that "then shall they BEGIN to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us,' and to the hills, 'Cover us.'" So how long DID or DO they last? A week? Two weeks? A month? Two months? Six months? A year? Two years? Three and a half years? Seven years? A decade? A century? Two centuries? Five centuries? A millennium? Two millennia?

Remember, please, that I'm not of the opinion that the "tribulation" hasn't started, yet. I DO believe that the "tribulation" (Greek: thlipsis, meaning "pressure"), described by Yeshua` in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24 & 25; Mark 13; Luke 21), started in the first century. What I do NOT believe is that it FINISHED in the first century or ANY time up to the present. I believe that it continues today and will continue until the sign of the Messiah's return appears in the sky.

These women were told to weep for themselves and their children (their prodigy; their grandchildren, great grandchildren, etc.) who will suffer because of their choice that day that He was crucified down the path of history to the time when they say, "Fall on us" and "Cover us!"

But, hey, say what you want to say; you will anyway, but as far as I'm concerned, you don't know what the heck you're talking about. It's just "sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal." It all SOUNDS good (to YOUR ears anyway), but it has no substance.

The Kingdom of God is NOT "within an individual"; it was "within the GROUP of Pharisees!" And, the Kingdom of God could ONLY be so "within that group of people" because YESHUA` HIMSELF WHO IS THE KING was there at that time "within that group!" It's NUTS to think that Yeshua` was saying that the Kingdom would be within each individual to whom He was talking when they were the sons of Bliya`al-Belial with whom He contended!

At Revelation 1:1, it says that Jesus "presented it in signs through (an angel) to his slave John." Hence, the book of Revelation is written in mostly symbolic language. Let's examine a few cases that are spoken of not only in Revelation, but other parts of the Bible.


For example, at Joel 2, it says that God would "pour out my spirit upon every sort of flesh" (Joel 2:28), with this being initially fulfilled on Pentecost 33 C.E.(Acts 2:4, 17) But Joel was further inspired to write that God "will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah."(Joel 2:30, 31)


Was this literal ? No. Rather it designated that the Jewish system of things would collapse, being symbolized by the "sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood", before the "day of Jehovah" came upon the Jews in 70 C.E., with the Romans occupying Israel during Jesus time on the earth.


The Jews always felt a loathing toward the Roman government, and especially these having put a governor over them, along with a garrison of soldiers there in Jerusalem. Their animosity toward the Romans eventually led to rebellion. From 61 C.E. to 66 C.E., conditions in Jerusalem steadily deteriorated.


Finally, in 66 C.E., the corrupt Roman Governor Florus seizes 17 talents in “tax arrears” from the sacred temple treasury. The Jews are incensed and rise up in rebellion, starting the Jewish revolt. Jewish rebels, or Zealots, swarm into Jerusalem and slaughter the Roman forces there. They then boldly declare Judea to be independent of Rome. Judea and Rome are now at war !


Within three months, the Roman governor of Syria, Cestius Gallus, marches south with 30,000 troops to suppress the Jewish rebellion. His army arrives at Jerusalem during the Festival of Booths and quickly penetrates the suburbs. The outnumbered Zealots seek refuge inside the temple fortress.


Roman soldiers soon begin to undermine the temple wall. The Jews are horrified. Why, pagan soldiers are now defiling Judaism’s holiest site! The Christians in the city, though, recall Jesus’ words: ‘When you catch sight of the disgusting thing (the Roman armies) standing in a holy place (the Jewish temple), then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.’ (Matthew 24:15, 16)


Suddenly and for no apparent reason, Cestius Gallus withdraws his troops and retreats toward the coast with the Zealots in hot pursuit, whereby his army is slaughtered at Beth-horon, some 15 miles northwest of Jerusalem. Within months, a new Roman army is on the move. During 67 C.E., General Vespasian and his son Titus mobilize a vast force of 60,000 troops.


For the next two years, this military juggernaut advances toward Jerusalem, crushing all resistance in its path. Meanwhile, inside Jerusalem, rival Jewish factions engage in vicious struggles, with the cold hand of zealotry plunging the city into a brutal civil war.


The city grain reserves are destroyed, the area surrounding the temple is leveled, and more than 20,000 Jews are killed. Vespasian delays his advance toward Jerusalem, declaring: ‘God acts as a Roman general better than I can do; our enemies are destroying one another with their own hands.’


Joel's prophecy was now coming true for the Jews, for "on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke" and in which "the sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood". The Jewish system of things was crumbling, with chaos being the order of the day.


What institutions the Jews thought they might look to for salvation, like the sun, or the moon as being a sign of peacefulness was collapsing, just as it did for ancient Babylon, for concerning the night of it's fall (Oct 5/6, 539 B.C.E.), Jeremiah was inspired to write that "the heavens and their light was no more...the mountains....were rocking, and the hills were all given to shaking."(Jer 4:23, 24) Babylon's entire system of things fell apart, causing her downfall when the Medo-Persian armies attacked her.


Babylon's symbolic "light" had turned to "darkness" in one night, its military prowess was now in shambles, her "mountains...were rocking", for what once a world power was now in total disarray. Likewise of the Jews, for by the time General Titus entered the city on April 3, 70 C.E., tens of thousands had died from starvation and murder.


Over the course of April 3 to August 30, 1.1 million Jews are slaughtered, with Jerusalem being thoroughly destroyed and the temple reduced to ruins, just as Jesus had said of the temple that ' a stone will not be left on a stone and not be thrown down.' (Matt 24:2) This Jewish system of things was now gone.

Eric E Stahl said:

Arnie,

The following is why God sends the fire on mankind;

Ezekiel 39:6-8
6And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

7So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

8Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.

Click to expand...

Yes Eric , that tells us the "why"

I think guy is asking the "how" of getting the sun dark yet the moon still having some light.

Meanwhile retro and daq are on their third book about something ... i see endless pictures of knives and swords , not sure what they are up to . And then they keep quoting themselves over -and over -and over -and over

guysmith .... another thought to go along with an asteroid theory .... somewhere it says there will be signs in the sky before the great day .... a huge asteroid would sure be a sign .... and we would have plenty of warning from NASA ....

I still keep coming back to where it says ... The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red (ESV)

It would be different if it said the sun was covered ....

To confuse things even more the KJV says .... the moon became like blood .... I presume they are talking about color .... wish I knew the original Greek

Arnie Manitoba said:

Yes Eric , that tells us the "why"

I think guy is asking the "how" of getting the sun dark yet the moon still having some light.

Meanwhile retro and daq are on their third book about something ... i see endless pictures of knives and swords , not sure what they are up to . And then they keep quoting themselves over -and over -and over -and over

guysmith .... another thought to go along with an asteroid theory .... somewhere it says there will be signs in the sky before the great day .... a huge asteroid would sure be a sign .... and we would have plenty of warning from NASA ....

I still keep coming back to where it says ... The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red (ESV)

It would be different if it said the sun was covered ....

To confuse things even more the KJV says .... the moon became like blood .... I presume they are talking about color .... wish I knew the original Greek

Click to expand...

Arnie,


Most reject what I am going to suggest as a possible answer to that question.

The earth may rotate when the poles change like an electric magnet when God sends a nuclear war and the heavens are destroyed.

That could turn the sun to the dark side of the earth at the time of a blood moon.

Shalom, Guestman.

Guestman said:

At Revelation 1:1, it says that Jesus "presented it in signs through (an angel) to his slave John." Hence, the book of Revelation is written in mostly symbolic language. Let's examine a few cases that are spoken of not only in Revelation, but other parts of the Bible.

For example, at Joel 2, it says that God would "pour out my spirit upon every sort of flesh" (Joel 2:28), with this being initially fulfilled on Pentecost 33 C.E.(Acts 2:4, 17) But Joel was further inspired to write that God "will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and fear-inspiring day of Jehovah."(Joel 2:30, 31)

Was this literal ? No. Rather it designated that the Jewish system of things would collapse, being symbolized by the "sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood", before the "day of Jehovah" came upon the Jews in 70 C.E., with the Romans occupying Israel during Jesus time on the earth.

The Jews always felt a loathing toward the Roman government, and especially these having put a governor over them, along with a garrison of soldiers there in Jerusalem. Their animosity toward the Romans eventually led to rebellion. From 61 C.E. to 66 C.E., conditions in Jerusalem steadily deteriorated.

Finally, in 66 C.E., the corrupt Roman Governor Florus seizes 17 talents in “tax arrears” from the sacred temple treasury. The Jews are incensed and rise up in rebellion, starting the Jewish revolt. Jewish rebels, or Zealots, swarm into Jerusalem and slaughter the Roman forces there. They then boldly declare Judea to be independent of Rome. Judea and Rome are now at war !

Within three months, the Roman governor of Syria, Cestius Gallus, marches south with 30,000 troops to suppress the Jewish rebellion. His army arrives at Jerusalem during the Festival of Booths and quickly penetrates the suburbs. The outnumbered Zealots seek refuge inside the temple fortress.

Roman soldiers soon begin to undermine the temple wall. The Jews are horrified. Why, pagan soldiers are now defiling Judaism’s holiest site! The Christians in the city, though, recall Jesus’ words: ‘When you catch sight of the disgusting thing (the Roman armies) standing in a holy place (the Jewish temple), then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.’ (Matthew 24:15, 16)

Suddenly and for no apparent reason, Cestius Gallus withdraws his troops and retreats toward the coast with the Zealots in hot pursuit, whereby his army is slaughtered at Beth-horon, some 15 miles northwest of Jerusalem. Within months, a new Roman army is on the move. During 67 C.E., General Vespasian and his son Titus mobilize a vast force of 60,000 troops.

For the next two years, this military juggernaut advances toward Jerusalem, crushing all resistance in its path. Meanwhile, inside Jerusalem, rival Jewish factions engage in vicious struggles, with the cold hand of zealotry plunging the city into a brutal civil war.

The city grain reserves are destroyed, the area surrounding the temple is leveled, and more than 20,000 Jews are killed. Vespasian delays his advance toward Jerusalem, declaring: ‘God acts as a Roman general better than I can do; our enemies are destroying one another with their own hands.’

Joel's prophecy was now coming true for the Jews, for "on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke" and in which "the sun itself will be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood". The Jewish system of things was crumbling, with chaos being the order of the day.

What institutions the Jews thought they might look to for salvation, like the sun, or the moon as being a sign of peacefulness was collapsing, just as it did for ancient Babylon, for concerning the night of it's fall (Oct 5/6, 539 B.C.E.), Jeremiah was inspired to write that "the heavens and their light was no more...the mountains....were rocking, and the hills were all given to shaking."(Jer 4:23, 24) Babylon's entire system of things fell apart, causing her downfall when the Medo-Persian armies attacked her.

Babylon's symbolic "light" had turned to "darkness" in one night, its military prowess was now in shambles, her "mountains...were rocking", for what once a world power was now in total disarray. Likewise of the Jews, for by the time General Titus entered the city on April 3, 70 C.E., tens of thousands had died from starvation and murder.

Over the course of April 3 to August 30, 1.1 million Jews are slaughtered, with Jerusalem being thoroughly destroyed and the temple reduced to ruins, just as Jesus had said of the temple that ' a stone will not be left on a stone and not be thrown down.' (Matt 24:2) This Jewish system of things was now gone.

Click to expand...

Sorry, bro', but that's not even CLOSE to a good way to interpret the Bible! Do you realize just how SUBJECTIVE that approach to the Scriptures is?! What if someone who reasons like you do says that Exodus 20 is not to be taken literally?!


Exodus 20:13-16
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
KJV

"Was this literal? No. Rather it designated that the Jewish system of things would collapse, being symbolized by the killing, adultery, stealing, and bearing false witness."

That would be nuts, right? SAME THING HERE IN JOEL 2:30-31! What gives you the right to suggest that parts of the Scriptures can be taken literally while other parts have to be taken symbolically?! Furthermore, how does one tell which is which?! Which portions are to be taken literally and which portions to be taken symbolically? Sorry, but that is just TOO SUBJECTIVE - at the whim of the interpreter! Do you realize that anyone who advances himself to be "judge and jury" on the Scriptures is elevating himself ABOVE GOD?! That's a form of IDOLATRY called "hypercriticism!" In effect, it is "worshipping the creature more than the Creator!"

There is no other reason NOT to take Joel's prophecy literally than the BIAS of the reader!

Consider carefully WHY you said what you said above.

-----

Shalom, Arnie.

Arnie Manitoba said:

Yes Eric , that tells us the "why"

I think guy is asking the "how" of getting the sun dark yet the moon still having some light.

Meanwhile retro and daq are on their third book about something ... i see endless pictures of knives and swords , not sure what they are up to . And then they keep quoting themselves over -and over -and over -and over

guysmith .... another thought to go along with an asteroid theory .... somewhere it says there will be signs in the sky before the great day .... a huge asteroid would sure be a sign .... and we would have plenty of warning from NASA ....

I still keep coming back to where it says ... The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red (ESV)

It would be different if it said the sun was covered ....

To confuse things even more the KJV says .... the moon became like blood .... I presume they are talking about color .... wish I knew the original Greek

Click to expand...

Your wish is my command:

Actually, the various versions read this way:


Revelation 6:12
12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red,
NIV

Revelation 6:12
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
KJV

Revelation 6:12
12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
ESV

Revelation 6:12
12 Kai eidon hote eenoixen teen sfragida teen hekteen, kai seismos megas egeneto, kai ho heelios egeneto melas hoos sakkos trichinos kai hee seleenee holee egeneto hoos haima
Greek New Testament

12 Kai = 12 And/Also
eidon = I-beheld/I-looked/I-watched
hote = when
eenoixen = he-had-opened
teen = the
sfragida = seal
teen = the
hekteen, = sixth,
kai = and/also
seismos = an-earthquake
megas = great/large
egeneto, = there-was,
kai = and/also
ho = the
heelios = sun
egeneto = became
melas = black
hoos = like/as
sakkos = a-sack
trichinos = of-hair
kai = and/also
hee = the
seleenee = moon
holee = whole/full
egeneto = became
hoos = like/as
haima = blood


12 And/Also I-beheld/I-looked/I-watched when he-had-opened the seal the sixth, and/also an-earthquake great/large there-was, and/also the sun became black like/as a-sack of-hair and/also the moon whole/full became like/as blood

12 I also watched when he had opened the sixth seal, and there was a huge earthquake, and the sun became black like a sack (made) of (goat's) hair and the full moon became like blood

Now, as far as getting plenty of warning from NASA, remember: At this point in Revelation, there have already been five of the seven seals opened. At least a quarter of the earth has experienced an overlord, war, famine, and death from killing, famine and diseases, and those who were killed on account of their testimony and for possession of a Bible in the fifth seal.

Will enough of what was once called "NASA" survive? Who knows? But, I am reminded of a particular discussion in the movie "Armageddon":

It was an asteroid supposedly about the size of Texas 18 days away traveling at 22,000 mph.
The congressman asked, "We didn't see this thing coming?"
Truman said, "Well, our object collision budget's a million dollars. That allows us to track about 3% of the sky."

This is a movie, but the reality is not that different:

According to www.space.com/20292-asteroid-threat-earth-congress.html in an article by Clara Moskowitz dated Mar. 19, 2013, NASA has so far (as of Feb. 15, 2013) detected only about 10% of the near-Earth objects that are wider than 459 feet (140 meters) across.

NASA was instructed by Congress back in 2005 to find and track 90%. According to Charles Bolden,

"Our estimate right now is at the present budget levels it will be 2030 before we're able to reach the 90% level as prescribed by Congress."

What if they didn't even have THAT budget available? And now, the Government has shut down! That will set them back a little farther!


It's like an anti-virus computer program: KNOWN threats can be predicted and we can watch for them, but UNKNOWN threats are ALWAYS coming up! Just as new computer viruses, trojans, and adware programs are constantly being written, new astronomic threats are constantly being discovered. Once we know their trajectories, we can plot their course to see if they are going to become threats to Earth, but there are ALWAYS new ones being discovered that no one could foresee!

Assuming a straight-line curve between 10% on Feb. 15, 2013 and 90% on Jan. 01, 2030, currently we should know about 12.8% of the near-Earth objects that are wider than 459 feet across. That leaves A LOT of the sky unknown!

I envision this object more of a comet than an asteroid for several reasons, but the primary one is that IF such a comet were to come close to the Earth, it could (in theory) eclipse both the sun and the full moon at the same time, as well as provide the tail debris necessary to create a meteorite shower on Earth!

When will it happen? Who knows but God?

Retrobyter,

Exodux 20 is literal, for it is the beginning point for the Mosaic Law for the nation of Israel in 1513 B.C.E. and has no direct relationship with regard to Joel 2. Some of the Bible is literal, such as the history regarding the nation of Israel and other nations impact upon them, while other parts are written in symbolisms or in the form of riddles. Jesus used "riddles" or illustrations during all his ministry, as at Matthew 13 and in which Psalms 78:2 was applied to him.(Matt 13:35)


In fact, the Bible is inspired by God to be written down so that only "babes" (humble, teachable ones) can unlock its mysteries, understanding what is symbolic and what is literal.(Matt 13:11) Jesus said in prayer to his (and our) Father, after condemning several cities for their failure to grasp his miraculous works: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones (such as those in Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum, Matt 11:20-24) and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you."(Matt 11:25, 26)


For example, the words that our Creator, Jehovah God said moments after the rebellion of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, has symbolisms: "And I shall put enmity (or hatred) between you (the serpent) and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you (the serpent) will bruise him in the heel.”(Gen 3:15)


Neither the "serpent" nor the "woman" is literal, but symbolizes Satan as the "serpent" (Rev 12:9) and the "woman" as God's heavenly organization of loyal angels from which would come a "seed", that some 4,000 years later proved to be the Christ.(Eph 3:8, 9; Rom 16:25, 26; Gal 3:16)


The "woman's seed" or Jesus Christ will "bruise (the serpent or Satan) in the head", another symbolism for his total annihilation (Rev 20:10), just as the "serpent bruising the woman's seed in the heel", thus designating a temporary wound, that he ( the Christ) recovered from when he was put to death on a torture stake but Jehovah resurrected him from the dead.(Acts 3:15; Gal 1:1)

Retrobyter

Lets look at another example of Jesus and symbolisms. At Luke 13, Jesus gave an illustration in the autumn of 32 C.E., showing the sinful and unresponsiveness of the nation of Israel (Luke 13:1-5): "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it, but found none. Then he said to the vinedresser, ‘Here it is three years that I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, but have found none. Cut it down! Why really should it keep the ground useless?’ In reply he said to him, ‘Master, let it alone also this year, until I dig around it and put on manure; and if then it produces fruit in the future, well and good; but if not, you shall cut it down.’”(Luke 13:6-9)


Is the "fig tree" here literal ? No. Rather, it represented the nation of Israel during Jesus ministry. So what is meant by the "fig tree" having no "fruit on it" after three years ? It symbolized that the Jews, as a nation, produced no spiritual fruitage or personality changes that pleased Jehovah God.


Jesus (as the "master") had worked the "vineyard" for three years (29-32 C.E.) but no real "fruit" was forthcoming. So, in the illustration, the "master" was wanting to discard the fig tree (all fruit trees were taxed by the Roman government; hence any fruit tree not producing fruit by 4 years was cut down), but the "vinedresser" appealed to the "master" to wait at least another year.


By the spring of 33 C.E., Jesus recognized that the "fig tree" would produce so little "fruit" that it should be ' cut down'. Three day before his death, Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders: "This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits."(Matt 21:43)


The nation of Israel failed to display "fruits", something "sweet" to God, but rather showed its true colors, such as hatred for God's "servant" and representative, Jesus Christ.(1 Thess 2:14, 15)

On the same day, Jesus said of the nation of Israel, with the Jewish religious leaders responsible for teaching the nation Jehovah's laws (Mal 2:7): "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen´na (or everlasting destruction) ? For this reason, here I am sending forth to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and impale, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri´ah son of Bar·a·chi´ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar."(Matt 23:33-35)


Because of their hatred for God's loyal servants and of his worship, Jesus further said: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings ! But you people did not want it. Look ! Your house is abandoned to you. For I say to you, you will by no means see me from henceforth until you say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matt 23:37-39)


The nation of Israel was now rejected by God and replaced with another "nation", one that would display the "fruits" of the "kingdom".(Gal 5:22, 23; 6:16)

Eric E Stahl said:

Arnie,


Most reject what I am going to suggest as a possible answer to that question.

The earth may rotate when the poles change like an electric magnet when God sends a nuclear war and the heavens are destroyed.

That could turn the sun to the dark side of the earth at the time of a blood moon.

Click to expand...

It has long been thought there was a pole shift years ago , so not impossible to happen again

In Canada's high arctic we have quick frozen Muskoxen with fresh daisy cup flowers in their mouths .... it was like a tropical climate at one time until something froze them in their tracks. They say that even our best modern freezers today could not freeze anything that fast.

I am a pilot and sometimes the magnetic north pole does some funny things and can move around. Navigation has to calculate those changes .... mostly everyone uses GPS now which is highly accurate. But if the earths axis did suddenly shift , and the GPS satellites stayed where they are .... it would screw that whole system up too.

I am old school and could live off the land with a knife and a package of matches ..... but I worry about the young people who would be helpless if their IPads conked out.

Shalom, Guestman.

Guestman said:

Retrobyter,

Exodux 20 is literal, for it is the beginning point for the Mosaic Law for the nation of Israel in 1513 B.C.E. and has no direct relationship with regard to Joel 2. Some of the Bible is literal, such as the history regarding the nation of Israel and other nations impact upon them, while other parts are written in symbolisms or in the form of riddles. Jesus used "riddles" or illustrations during all his ministry, as at Matthew 13 and in which Psalms 78:2 was applied to him.(Matt 13:35)

In fact, the Bible is inspired by God to be written down so that only "babes" (humble, teachable ones) can unlock its mysteries, understanding what is symbolic and what is literal.(Matt 13:11) Jesus said in prayer to his (and our) Father, after condemning several cities for their failure to grasp his miraculous works: "I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones (such as those in Chorazin, Bethsaida and Capernaum, Matt 11:20-24) and have revealed them to babes. Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you."(Matt 11:25, 26)

For example, the words that our Creator, Jehovah God said moments after the rebellion of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, has symbolisms: "And I shall put enmity (or hatred) between you (the serpent) and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you (the serpent) will bruise him in the heel.”(Gen 3:15)

Neither the "serpent" nor the "woman" is literal, but symbolizes Satan as the "serpent" (Rev 12:9) and the "woman" as God's heavenly organization of loyal angels from which would come a "seed", that some 4,000 years later proved to be the Christ.(Eph 3:8, 9; Rom 16:25, 26; Gal 3:16)

The "woman's seed" or Jesus Christ will "bruise (the serpent or Satan) in the head", another symbolism for his total annihilation (Rev 20:10), just as the "serpent bruising the woman's seed in the heel", thus designating a temporary wound, that he ( the Christ) recovered from when he was put to death on a torture stake but Jehovah resurrected him from the dead.(Acts 3:15; Gal 1:1)

Retrobyter

Lets look at another example of Jesus and symbolisms. At Luke 13, Jesus gave an illustration in the autumn of 32 C.E., showing the sinful and unresponsiveness of the nation of Israel (Luke 13:1-5): "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came looking for fruit on it, but found none. Then he said to the vinedresser, ‘Here it is three years that I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree, but have found none. Cut it down! Why really should it keep the ground useless?’ In reply he said to him, ‘Master, let it alone also this year, until I dig around it and put on manure; and if then it produces fruit in the future, well and good; but if not, you shall cut it down.’”(Luke 13:6-9)

Is the "fig tree" here literal ? No. Rather, it represented the nation of Israel during Jesus ministry. So what is meant by the "fig tree" having no "fruit on it" after three years ? It symbolized that the Jews, as a nation, produced no spiritual fruitage or personality changes that pleased Jehovah God.

Jesus (as the "master") had worked the "vineyard" for three years (29-32 C.E.) but no real "fruit" was forthcoming. So, in the illustration, the "master" was wanting to discard the fig tree (all fruit trees were taxed by the Roman government; hence any fruit tree not producing fruit by 4 years was cut down), but the "vinedresser" appealed to the "master" to wait at least another year.

By the spring of 33 C.E., Jesus recognized that the "fig tree" would produce so little "fruit" that it should be ' cut down'. Three day before his death, Jesus told the Jewish religious leaders: "This is why I say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation producing its fruits."(Matt 21:43)

The nation of Israel failed to display "fruits", something "sweet" to God, but rather showed its true colors, such as hatred for God's "servant" and representative, Jesus Christ.(1 Thess 2:14, 15)

On the same day, Jesus said of the nation of Israel, with the Jewish religious leaders responsible for teaching the nation Jehovah's laws (Mal 2:7): "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are you to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen´na (or everlasting destruction) ? For this reason, here I am sending forth to you prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them you will kill and impale, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri´ah son of Bar·a·chi´ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar."(Matt 23:33-35)

Because of their hatred for God's loyal servants and of his worship, Jesus further said: "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings ! But you people did not want it. Look ! Your house is abandoned to you. For I say to you, you will by no means see me from henceforth until you say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’” (Matt 23:37-39)

The nation of Israel was now rejected by God and replaced with another "nation", one that would display the "fruits" of the "kingdom".(Gal 5:22, 23; 6:16)

Click to expand...

Yes, I know that Exodus 20 is literal and that it has no direct tie to Joel 2; I PLANNED it that way. I simply chose a literal passage at random to make my point. Again, who determines what is literal and what is figurative?

See, not all prophetic passages are figurative, just as not all figurative passages are prophetic! In fact, a great number of them are NOT figurative, symbolic, or allegorical.

Strictly speaking, I don't believe in a "literal method of interpreting the Bible." I believe in a grammatical/historical interpretation of the Bible, and normal grammatical constructs will, from time to time, include figurative speech. However, most often a prophecy will have a particular symbol or allegory to compare literals together.

For instance, the sheep and goats analogy of Matthew 25:31 through 46. Most of the prophetic passage is literal in its scope, but it uses the sheep to represent those nations that treated His people well and goats to represent those nations that mistreated His people. Beyond that simple analogy, the rest is all literal. Furthermore, the usage of the word "hoos" in Greek (translated as "like" or "as") makes this particular kind of analogy a simile.

An analogy to literature is like an equation to mathematics. Even more specifically, it relates to ratios in mathematics. "A is to B as C is to D," written as "A:B::C" in ratio symbolism. In parables, such as the wheat and the tares analogy, MUCH is given its parallel making a "A:B:C:E:F:G::H:I:J:K:L:M:N" sort of relationship, but few such parables are given that much detail. Some are there purely for one simple parallel, A::B, and the parallel is more about the VERBS than it is about the related nouns. A case in point is the parable about the leaven:


Matthew 13:33
33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
KJV


Luke 13:20-21
20 And again he said, Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?
21 It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
KJV

That's it! That's all we are given! Both accounts give very little connection: We are told that the kingdom of heaven (the kingdom from the sky) and the kingdom of God (God's kingdom) = leaven, but we're NOT told who the woman might represent nor are we told what the 3 measures of meal might represent. Therefore, they ARE NOT IMPORTANT to understand the parable! And, the disciples DID understand it!


Matthew 13:51
51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.
KJV

It was so simple that a bunch of uneducated fishermen could understand it without explanation! So, all of the bone-headed allegorical method of interpretation with all of its complicated formulas and referencing back and forth to this verse and that verse were NOT necessary!

God's kingdom from the sky is like leaven or yeast. We're not told what is like the "woman" or the "3 measures" (Gree: sata tria = Hebrew: shlosh c'iym) of meal (almost 21 dry quarts of dough), and it's not necessary to be told. We ARE told, however, that the leaven (God's kingdom from the sky) was MIXED into the dough until the whole lump of dough was LEAVENED! It's talking about the INFLUENCE of God's kingdom, and how it will grow until that influence is TOTAL! It is also describing the fact that such influence WILL TAKE TIME to accomplish! Anyone who's done a little baking of chalah (or braided egg bread) knows that once the yeast is thoroughly mixed in, the dough has to rest to rise! Yeast is a single-celled plant that grows, divides, and reproduces itself, as long as it has food, water, air, and warmth. For 21 quarts of dough, it may take several generations of yeast reproduction to make the whole lump rise! That all takes time!

Now, if you want to deal in the details of a particular passage, I would recommend that you NOT use the NIV or the NKJV or whatever version you are using. Those versions of the Bible were NOT meant for that purpose. They were meant for a more general understanding of a passage, not for the details. If you want to understand the details of a passage, either go to the Greek itself or to a version such as the KJV or the NASV, a version that tried to be more of a word-for-word translation. NONE of the versions I have available to me use the words, "Yes, O Father, because to do thus came to be the way approved by you." "Approved" is NOT a good translation of the Greek word "eudokia":


NT:2107 eudokia (yoo-dok-ee'-ah); from a presumed compound of NT:2095 and the base of NT:1380; satisfaction, i.e. (subjectively) delight, or (objectively) kindness, wish, purpose:
KJV - desire, good pleasure (will), X seem good.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

And one more thing: You're a little off in your dates. It can be shown from history that Yeshua` had to have been born earlier than 5 B.C.E. because that is when Herod the Great died.

Retrobyter

Who determines what is literal and what is symbolic ? Our Creator, Jehovah God, for he is the One who inspired the Bible to be written.(2 Tim 3:16) He intentionally had the Bible written or encrypted so that only "babes" (Matt 11:25, 26), those who are humble, allowing Jehovah's spirit to guide them rather than bias or prejudice toward a certain belief, but permittting the Bible to "speak for itself."


Three days before Jesus was put to death, Jesus identified that a "faithful and discreet slave" would be responsible for dispensing spiritual food "at the proper time" ("meat in due season", KJV, Matt 24:45) This "slave", under the influence of God's holy spirit, would be determined to accurately explain the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, putting the Scriptures in the proper perspective in these "last days".(2 Tim 3:1)


Of the book of Revelation, which is the basis for this discussion, Revelation 1:1 states that it is "a revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented it in signs ("signs", Greek esemanen, meaning "to signify, indicate") through him to his slave John."


Thus, Revelation is written in "signs" or symbolisms (just as is Ezekiel 1 concerning the "celestial chariot" and chapter 9 in which there is seen "six men with weapons for smashing" and a "man clothed with linen, with a secretary's inkhorn on his hips" as well as chapter 38 concerning "Gog of the land of Magog"), in which persons, objects or events "signify or indicate" something. This can readily be seen from the symbolisms of a "wild beast" (Rev 13:1, 2), the "scarlet-colored wild beast" (Rev 17:3), a "harlot" named "Babylon the Great" (Rev 17:1, 2, 5), the "false prophet"(Rev 16:13; 19:20), to name just a few.


And concerning the "kingdom" at Matthew 13 (of which you quoted Matthew 13:33 and 51), Jesus used the Greek word syniemi some 6 times (Matt 13:13, 14, 15, 19, 23, 51) which literally means "to mentally put the pieces together."(Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible)


Jesus explained that only his genuine disciples would be able to unlock "the sacred secrets (Greek mysteria, meaning "a hidden thing, secret, mystery", Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon the New Testament) of the kingdom".(Matt 13:11) To all others, his illustrations were just "a good story", having no real merit other than perhaps to entertain, so that these ones failed to "get the sense of it".(Matt 13:13)


Hence, Jesus said that most who read the Bible would be ' looking in vain and hearing in vain, neither do they get the sense of it.' (Matt 13:13) These would be unable to "mentally put the pieces together", like trying to assemble a 10,000 piece puzzle, but cannot figure where all the pieces accurately go, but trying to force the pieces into the wrong place, like putting a square peg into a round hole.


And concerning Jesus birth, Jesus was born in about 2 B.C.E. How can this be known ? A little mental math is needed here and a careful reading of the Bible. At Luke 1, Elizabeth becomes pregnant with John the Baptist.(Luke 1:24) Six months later, Mary becomes pregnant with Jesus. So there is a 6 month difference in age between John the Baptist and Jesus.


At Luke 3:1, 2, it establishes that "in the fifteenth year (or 14 years and some few months) of the reigh of Tiberius Caesar", that John the Baptist went "preaching baptism in symbol of repentance, for forgiveness of sins (against the Mosaic Law covenant)."(Luke 3:3)


When did Tiberius Caesar begin to reign ? On September 15, 14 C.E.(an established or pivotal date) when the Roman Senate named Tiberius as emperor. Thus, Tiberius 15th year ran from latter part of 28 C.E. and well into 29 C.E.

Being that Jesus was baptized by John and was "about 30 years old" when he "commenced his work" of being the Messiah almost immediately after his baptism (Luke 3:23), then Jesus began his ministry in the fall of 29 C.E. Going back 30 years would bring us to the year 2 B.C.E.(there was no zero year, 29 to 1 C.E. is 28 years, then plus 2 years would bring us to 2 B.C.E., with Herod the Great dying in about 1 B.C.E.)