A FEW QUESTIONS FOR millianialists

It certainly makes more sense to view the 1000 years as literally being 1000 years than it does to view the dragon as being a literal dragon. I see no scriptural precedent for allegorizing that number. In fact, everywhere else in the Septuagint that that Greek word is spelled exactly the same way as it is in Revelation, it always refers to an exact quantity of 1000.

The fact that it's only mentioned once is irrelevant. Once is enough. I'm sure that there are numerous other things in the bible that are only mentioned once that amillennialists don't feel a need to allegorize.

Of course messiah reigns forever. The 1000-year reign is just the first 1000 years of that eternal reign on earth.

Good and legitimate questions horsecamp

I would like to add another if I may:

The Greek word "chronos" does not mean a "delay" (as some of modern translations have rendered it from Revelation 10:6) but rather only denotes a pause or "delay" by the definition of the word because the word "chronos" itself means explicitly "an increment of time" or "a space of time" no matter what the duration of the time span increment. If therefore the Messenger of Revelation 10:6 swears by Him that lives for ever and ever that there shall be no more increments of time when the voice seventh messenger sounds then how can the literalists reconcile this with a thousand-year literal INCREMENT of CHRONOS-TIME after the sounding of the seventh trumpet? Such a theory is in direct violation of what the Messenger of the passage has sworn:

Revelation 10:5-7 KJV
5. And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6. And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time [GSN#5550 chronos] no longer:
7. But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Original Strong's Ref. #5550
Romanized chronos
Pronounced khron'-os
of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from GSN2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from GSN0165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:
KJV--+ years old, season, space, (X often-)time(-s), (a) while.

According to the Strong's Definition itself the word "chronos" does not mean "a delay", (and there are multiple other Greek words that do mean exactly that which could have been employed here) but rather because it means "a space of time" it therefore obviously implies a delay. What the Messenger swears by Him who lives for ever and ever is that there shall be no more increments of time when the voice of the seventh Messenger sounds.

However, a one thousand year millennial period is by its very own defintion a one thousand year increment of time . . . :lol:

What difference does it make - 1,000 or 10,000 years without Satan is going to be a glorious time, without sin, crimes of any kind, greed, lust, wars, and on and on.
EVERYONE in the world will live the way that Jesus Christ wants mankind to live.

horsecamp said:

is satan a literal dragon IN THE FOLLOWING CHAPTER ? and can he literaly be bound with a chain? and does hell REALLY have a literal key to lock it?
and if these things are picture language why then would you think a thousand years would not also be picture language..
whether satan is or is not a literal dragon has little bearing because when satan is referred to a dragon could be taken and interpreted either way and the meaning does not change. as to whether satan can be bound by a chain I would have to say yes. if we believe the Word and it says all things are possible for those that believe then how can we assume satan cannot be bound?

ALSO WHY IS THER NO MENTION ANY WHERE ELSE IN SCRIPTURE OF A LITERAL THOUSAND YEAR REIGN BY CHRIST ?
CERTAINLY SOMETHING THAT IMPORTANT WOULD BE MENTIONED AND TOLD ABOUT..ELSE WHERE ..WHY IS IT NOT?
remember that the bible a book of salvation. yes it has history, lessons, and ect that can be learned but that is not the main theme. also everything spoken of in the new testament is spoken of in the old testament also. I encourage you to do a little research on the subject yourself to enlighten yourself so their can be better discussion.
ALSO WHAT DO YOU THINK JOHN WAS TELLING US ABOUT THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS .. WHEN HE SAID HE SAW THESE VISIONS WHILE IN THE SPIRIT ?
it is unknown exactly if it is where he was shown the revelation if he was actually in heaven in the spirit or if he was shown a vision or dream. I believe john was taken up to heaven spiritually and witnessed these acts.

REV 20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.



EVER HEAR HANDLES MESSIAH? AND HE SHALL REIGN FOR -------- EVER AND EVER ..

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God bless

horsecamp said:

.. They teach if jewish people do not want to believe in Jesus thats no problem no one should try to convert them because ..
there will be a time that they cant resist belief in him and they all will be saved ..

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That sounds like dispensationalism, which is not the same as millennialism.

horsecamp said:

is satan a literal dragon ..

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I doubt Satan is a literal dragon in Revelation , and doubt he was a literal serpent in Genesis . and I doubt God was just a burning bush in front of Moses.

Shalom, horsecamp.

horsecamp said:

is satan a literal dragon IN THE FOLLOWING CHAPTER ? and can he literaly be bound with a chain? and does hell REALLY have a literal key to lock it?
and if these things are picture language why then would you think a thousand years would not also be picture language..

ALSO WHY IS THER NO MENTION ANY WHERE ELSE IN SCRIPTURE OF A LITERAL THOUSAND YEAR REIGN BY CHRIST ?
CERTAINLY SOMETHING THAT IMPORTANT WOULD BE MENTIONED AND TOLD ABOUT..ELSE WHERE ..WHY IS IT NOT?

ALSO WHAT DO YOU THINK JOHN WAS TELLING US ABOUT THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS .. WHEN HE SAID HE SAW THESE VISIONS WHILE IN THE SPIRIT ?


REV 20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.



EVER HEAR HANDLES MESSIAH? AND HE SHALL REIGN FOR -------- EVER AND EVER ..

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It makes more sense than you realize. Revelation 20:1-3 CAN INDEED be taken literally. Consider the following:

Here is the Greek text (transliterated):


20:1 Kai eidon aggelon katabainonta ek tou ouranou echonta teen klein tees abussou kai halusin megaleen epi teen cheira autou.
2 Kai ekrateesen ton drakonta, ho ofis ho archaios, hos estin diabolos kai ho satanas, kai edeesen auton chilia etee
3 kai ebalen auton eis teen abusson kai ekleisen kai esfragisen epanoo autou, hina mee planeesee eti ta ethnee achri telesthee ta chilia etee. Meta tauta dei lutheenai auton mikron chronon.

20:1 Kai = 20:1 And/Also
eidon = I-saw
aggelon = a-messenger
katabainonta = come-down
ek = out-of/from
tou = the
ouranou = sky
echonta = having
teen = the
klein = key
tees = to-the
abussou = no-bottom
kai = and/also
halusin = a-fetter/manacle
megaleen = huge
epi = upon
teen = the
cheira = hand
autou. = of-him/his.
2 Kai = 2 And/Also
ekrateesen = he-grabbed/arrested
ton = the
drakonta, = lizard/reptile,
ho = the
ofis = snake/serpent
ho = the
archaios, = original,
hos = which
estin = is
diabolos = a-slanderer/Devil
kai = and/also
ho = ha/the
satanas, = Satan/Enemy,
kai = and/also
edeesen = he-bound
auton = him
chilia = a-thousand
etee = years
3 kai = 3 and/also
ebalen = he-threw
auton = him
eis = into
teen = the
abusson = no-bottom
kai = and/also
ekleisen = he-closed-it
kai = and/also
esfragisen = set-a-seal
epanoo = up-above
autou, = him,
hina = so-that
mee = no/not
planeesee = he-should-deceive
eti = anymore
ta = the
ethnee = nations/Gentiles
achri = until
telesthee = should-be-fulfilled
ta = the
chilia = thousand
etee. = years.
Meta = After
tauta = that
dei = must
lutheenai = be-loosed
auton = he
mikron = a-short
chronon. = time.

20:1 And/Also I-saw a-messenger come-down out-of/from the sky having the key to-the no-bottom and/also a-fetter/manacle huge upon the hand of-him/his.
2 And/Also he-grabbed/arrested the lizard/reptile, the snake/serpent the original, which is a-slanderer/Devil and/also the Satan/Enemy, and/also he-bound him a-thousand years
3 and/also he-threw him into the no-bottom and/also he-closed-it and/also set-a-seal up-above him, so-that no/not he-should-deceive anymore the nations/Gentiles until should-be-fulfilled the thousand years. After that must be-loosed he a-short time.

Notice carefully verse 2: It says that haSatan (the Enemy), the slanderer, was the original snake, a reptile! The word "dragon" is an English transliteration of the Greek word "drakonta" or "drakoon" ("oo" for omega), meaning "reptile or lizard!" Remember that the ORIGINAL snake didn't have to go on his belly at first! That was the result of God's curse on him! This creature was more like a small sauropod or theropod dinosaur with legs, closer to a "lizard!"

Also notice that the key verses here about the "Millennial Reign" is not the MESSIAH'S reign but that of His FOLLOWERS!

Revelation 20:4-6

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

We sometimes forget just how big this planet Earth really is! Here in the Information Age and having seen this planet in pictures from space, we tend to minimize the size of this planet and the scope of societies around the world, but Yeshua` is said to become the "King of kings" and "Lord of lords." Those are phrases that the ancients used for a "world emperor," like Nebuchadnezzar! However, it was also a PRACTICAL title because an effective emperor would have kings and masters as his subjects! The emperor was a king over many kings, a "king of kings!" He was also a "lord" or master over many masters, a "lord of lords!" It suggests a HIERARCHY of rulership! Those who are part of the first resurrection, which also includes those who were beheaded, are those who reign with the Messiah, the Christ, for a thousand years, but the Messiah, the Christ, Himself reigns forever!

And, just a minor point but one that may help you with the spelling in the future, the word "millennium" comes from two Latin words, "mille" meaning "a thousand" and "annum" meaning "year." Simply drop the "a" in "annum" and splice the two like a contraction. The "i" was added to the English word because of one of the endings of the Latin word. Thus, "mille" + "annum" - "a" - "um" +"ium" = "millennium." Therefore, whether one uses the Greek, "chilia etee," or the Latin "millennium," or the English "a thousand years," they all mean 1,000 YEARS! (If you've ever played the game Mille Bournes, its name is French - also known as "vulgarized Latin"; its name means "A Thousand Milestones.")

horsecamp said:

The reason you doubt genesis account and the Torah since it was not picture language used in those places
is a sinful nature .. we all have that sinful nature thats why were saved by Grace through faith ..

God in his bible promises us he wont snuff out even the tinest little bit of faith in him.. which is so so much better than the very strongest faith in some one else.


There is not a word in the Bible which is extra cruem, which can be understood without reference to the cross.
MARTIN LUTHER

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So you are saying satan is a dragon and God is a burning bush and satan is a snake ?????????????

Shalom, Arnie.

Yep. HaSatan was that original serpent, once a lizard, still a reptile - a snake, his legs withered in God's curse after the Fall (Gen. 3:14-15; Rev. 12:9; and Rev. 20:2). "HaSatan," that is pronounced "hah-saw-TAWN," that we shorten to "Satan" and mispronounce as "SAY-tun," without the Hebrew definite article, translates to English as "The Enemy" and specifically refers to a COURTROOM enemy, a prosecuting attorney, or at least an antagonistic witness!

In fact, his other "name," the Devil, comes from the Greek word "diabolos," one who "throws-through" or "punches holes in" another's reputation - a Slanderer (or as Strong's puts it, a "Traducer," but we hardly ever use that word)!

God is NOT a "burning bush." One of His MESSENGERS appeared as a flame of fire in a bush. God is a spirit - a pneuma - a ruach - a wind or a forceful blowing (Exo. 3:1-4; Acts 7:30, 35; John 4:24) - and a consuming fire (Deut. 4:24; 6:15; 9:3; Heb. 12:29). When He came down to Mount Sinai, he set the mountain on fire and it smoked! When Naadaav (Nadab) and Aviyhuw' (Abihu) offered their "strange fire" in their censors, a flame of fire issued from YHWH (the LORD) out of the Tabernacle and consumed them! When Eeliyaahuw (Elijah) offered his sacrifice, thoroughly drenched with water, with excess water sitting in a moat-like trench around the altar, he prayed,

1 Kings 18:37-39

37 "Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD (YHWH) God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again."
38 Then the fire of the LORD (Hebrew: eesh YHWH, meaning "YHWH'S fire") fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.
39 And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD (YHWH), he is the God; the LORD (YHWH), he is the God!
KJV (punctuation and emphasis added)

Don't think of these passages as fairy stories for young children! They are true accounts of real events!

That may not make much sense to you in light of all this angelology fluff under which we live and have been living ever since they started arguing about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin and propelled by all the junk that comes out of Hollywood, but even in our wild imaginations of up to 26 dimensions in today's physics, it still makes the best sense to follow the Scriptures, regardless how we feel about them.

For those who doubt the early Church fathers believed a literal 1,000 years reign of Christ with His elect at His return...

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Earlychurchfathers.htm#98025E


The Amillennialists here are pushing falsehoods about this history just so they can push their false doctrine that no literal Millennial reign by Christ and His at return exsists.

Retrobyter said:

Notice carefully verse 2: It says that haSatan (the Enemy), the slanderer, was the original snake, a reptile! The word "dragon" is an English transliteration of the Greek word "drakonta" or "drakoon" ("oo" for omega), meaning "reptile or lizard!" Remember that the ORIGINAL snake didn't have to go on his belly at first! That was the result of God's curse on him! This creature was more like a small sauropod or theropod dinosaur with legs, closer to a "lizard!"

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Retrobyter said:

Yep. HaSatan was that original serpent, once a lizard, still a reptile - a snake, his legs withered in God's curse after the Fall (Gen. 3:14-15; Rev. 12:9; and Rev. 20:2).

That may not make much sense to you in light of all this angelology fluff under which we live and have been living ever since they started arguing about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin and propelled by all the junk that comes out of Hollywood, but even in our wild imaginations of up to 26 dimensions in today's physics, it still makes the best sense to follow the Scriptures, regardless how we feel about them.

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1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV
8. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9. Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

I guess the serpent grew some new legs, developed the voice of a roaring lion, and now literally eats people?
Is there a Latin name for this species and where can I find information with pictorial evidence?

Isaiah 11:1-10 KJV
1. And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2. And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3. And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4. But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Is Isaiah 11:8 also to be taken literally according to you?

"And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den."

The only portion of the Isaiah 11:1-10 passage that has not yet been fulfilled is your flesh minded version of it.

daq verse 9 above God calls a mountain His Holy mountain, in the other thread about the faith of a mustard seed, you say mountains are symbolic of the devil. Please explain that one.

ENOCH2010 said:

daq verse 9 above God calls a mountain His Holy mountain, in the other thread about the faith of a mustard seed, you say mountains are symbolic of the devil. Please explain that one.

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That is a lie: explain yourself and why you desire to spread lies about people? There is good and bad in all things Scripture. Have you never heard of Horeb the Mountain of God? Mount Zion and Jerusalem of Above? Are you suggesting that the seven mountains upon which the harlot woman sits are now holy mountains? You are worse off than I thought. :lol:

daq said:

8:30 AM ~ Morning Offering

Revelation 8:8-9
8. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9. And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, having souls, died; and the third part of the ploion were corrupted-ruined-destroyed.

9:00 AM ~ Third Hour of the Day

Mark 15:22-25
22. And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being interpreted, The place of the Skull.
23. And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received it not.
24. And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.
25. And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

The devils are "mountains" in the Doctrine of Yeshua

Matthew 17:15-21
15. Master, have mercy on my son: for he is a moonstruck-lunatick, and sore vexed: for often times he falleth into the fire, and often into the water.
16. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17. Then Yeshua answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18. And Yeshua rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19. Then came the disciples to Yeshua apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20. And Yeshua said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21. Howbeit this genos-kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Matthew 21:21
21. Yeshua answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Mark 5:1-13
1. And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
2. And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
3. Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
4. Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
5. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
6. But when he saw Yeshua afar off, he ran and worshipped him,
7. And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Yeshua, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.
8. For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.
9. And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10. And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11. Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12. And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13. And forthwith Yeshua gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand) and were choked in the sea.

9:30 AM ~ Morning Offering Fulfilled

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If I say "the devils are mountains in the doctrine of Yeshua" (which is what I wrote) then this is a correct statement.
If I had said "the mountains are devils in the doctrine of Yeshua" then it would have been a half-truth and thus a false statement.
Do you see your error? You do not understand what you read, which is fine, but therefore you should not be accusing others.

Shalom, daq.

daq said:

1 Peter 5:8-9 KJV
8. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
9. Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

I guess the serpent grew some new legs, developed the voice of a roaring lion, and now literally eats people?
Is there a Latin name for this species and where can I find information with pictorial evidence?

Isaiah 11:1-10 KJV
1. And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
2. And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3. And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:
4. But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Is Isaiah 11:8 also to be taken literally according to you?

"And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den."

The only portion of the Isaiah 11:1-10 passage that has not yet been fulfilled is your flesh minded version of it.

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Wrong again, buddy. 1 Peter 5:8 contains that little, 2-letter word "AS" (Greek: "hoos" meaning "like" or "as"), making this definitely a SIMILE! Even the word "peripatei" (from "peripateoo" meaning "to trample around") doesn't truly refer to "walking around" but just "TRAMPLING around," making a "PATH!" The verse is talking about haSatan's RELENTLESS PURSUIT of those he means to devour!

Now, regarding Isaiah 11:1-10, your scoffing is noted ... and summarily dismissed. YES!!! It is ALL literal! There will be such a time in the future! As far as verse 1 is concerned, have ya' ever heard of a "family tree?" You may scoff at that being literal, but it is more literal than you might like to admit! Haven't you ever read Hebrews 7:1-10?


Hebrews 7:1-10
7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
KJV

There is a LITERAL connection between father and son down through the generations, and EVERY CHILD OF ISRA'EL, right down to today's Jew, was LITERALLY in the loins of his or her ancestor Avraham! Seed, too, is LITERAL, and there is an uninterrupted continuity of DNA down through the millennia, just as there was an uninterrupted continuity of DNA in the Avraham-Yitschaq-Yisra'el-Leviy-K'hat-`Amram-Aharown line! Thus, ALL of the Leviyim (Levites) paid tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq through their ancestor Avraham by virtue of the fact that they were still in the genetic code of their fathers!

As far as verse 8 (and ALL the verses) are concerned, it will INDEED LITERALLY BE FULFILLED! This little toddler, not yet weaned, will safely play around the hole of a poisonous snake, and no one will have to worry about the child being bitten, neither by an Egyptian asp nor by an Asian cobra (cockatrice)! The lamb will LITERALLY be able to dwell in safety in the presence of a wolf; the leopard won't be trying to eat the baby goat; and the young lion won't be attacking the cattle, not even a calf. And, yes, a little child could lead all the docile animals along without any worries or fear. Bear cubs and calves can rest together in the fields without fears or animosity of any kind, and the lion will indeed eat straw like an ox.

Whereas these verses MAY find some literal fulfillment in the first 1000 years of the Messiah's coming Kingdom (the time of the Millennium), the passage is actually about the distant future after the New Earth has been re-created and after the New Jerusalem has descended to the New Earth, for THAT is when the New Jerusalem descends and I'd say that a city about 1,500 miles high, especially in the shape of a pyramid, qualifies as a "holy mountain," wouldn't you?

Scoff all you want, but when God LITERALLY brings His prophecies to fulfillment, be careful you don't swallow that foolish tongue with the crow you'll be eating!

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, daq.


Wrong again, buddy. 1 Peter 5:8 contains that little, 2-letter word "AS" (Greek: "hoos" meaning "like" or "as"), making this definitely a SIMILE! Even the word "peripatei" (from "peripateoo" meaning "to trample around") doesn't truly refer to "walking around" but just "TRAMPLING around," making a "PATH!" The verse is talking about haSatan's RELENTLESS PURSUIT of those he means to devour!

Now, regarding Isaiah 11:1-10, your scoffing is noted ... and summarily dismissed. YES!!! It is ALL literal! There will be such a time in the future! As far as verse 1 is concerned, have ya' ever heard of a "family tree?" You may scoff at that being literal, but it is more literal than you might like to admit! Haven't you ever read Hebrews 7:1-10?


Hebrews 7:1-10
7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
KJV

There is a LITERAL connection between father and son down through the generations, and EVERY CHILD OF ISRA'EL, right down to today's Jew, was LITERALLY in the loins of his or her ancestor Avraham! Seed, too, is LITERAL, and there is an uninterrupted continuity of DNA down through the millennia, just as there was an uninterrupted continuity of DNA in the Avraham-Yitschaq-Yisra'el-Leviy-K'hat-`Amram-Aharown line! Thus, ALL of the Leviyim (Levites) paid tithes to Malkhiy-Tsedeq through their ancestor Avraham by virtue of the fact that they were still in the genetic code of their fathers!

As far as verse 8 (and ALL the verses) are concerned, it will INDEED LITERALLY BE FULFILLED! This little toddler, not yet weaned, will safely play around the hole of a poisonous snake, and no one will have to worry about the child being bitten, neither by an Egyptian asp nor by an Asian cobra (cockatrice)! The lamb will LITERALLY be able to dwell in safety in the presence of a wolf; the leopard won't be trying to eat the baby goat; and the young lion won't be attacking the cattle, not even a calf. And, yes, a little child could lead all the docile animals along without any worries or fear. Bear cubs and calves can rest together in the fields without fears or animosity of any kind, and the lion will indeed eat straw like an ox.

Whereas these verses MAY find some literal fulfillment in the first 1000 years of the Messiah's coming Kingdom (the time of the Millennium), the passage is actually about the distant future after the New Earth has been re-created and after the New Jerusalem has descended to the New Earth, for THAT is when the New Jerusalem descends and I'd say that a city about 1,500 miles high, especially in the shape of a pyramid, qualifies as a "holy mountain," wouldn't you?

Scoff all you want, but when God LITERALLY brings His prophecies to fulfillment, be careful you don't swallow that foolish tongue with the crow you'll be eating!

Click to expand...

Scoffing? You are the one who boldly stated to another poster right here above in this thread:

Quote Retrobyter again:]"Yep. HaSatan was that original serpent, once a lizard, still a reptile - a snake, his legs withered in God's curse after the Fall (Gen. 3:14-15; Rev. 12:9; and Rev. 20:2)."[End quote.

You do not want to retract your statement that the Adversary-Satan-Devil-Serpent is "still a reptile - a snake"? This really is unbelievable; it is you that makes a mockery of God and his Word because you refuse to budge one iota from your strictly literal-physical interpretation of everything. The Creator uses his own creation to explain spiritual-supernal things like the attributes and qualities of either good or wicked men. Likewise when 1 Peter 5:8 is quoted you again find a way to subvert what that passage also clearly states. What do you do with the statements of the Master when he gives even more critical data concerning the attributes of the Adversary in the Parable of the Sower? Is this another one of the Parables of Messiah that you say also does not apply to you?

Matthew 13:3-4 KJV
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Matthew 13:18-19 KJV
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mark 4:3-4 KJV
3. Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4. And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

Mark 4:13-15 KJV
13. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14. The sower soweth the word.
15. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Luke 8:4-5 KJV
4. And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
5. A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

Luke 8:11-12 KJV
11. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Retrobyter says that "HaSatan was that original serpent, once a lizard, still a reptile - a snake"
Yeshua says that the fowls of the air represent the Wicked One, the Satan, and the Devil in the Parable of the Sower.

Who should the disciple of the Word believe?

Retrobyter wants me to see and walk like himself according to the natural physical world.
Yeshua wants me to see and walk as he did and according to and in the Spirit of his Testimony.
Therefore even as we speak Retrobyter is the one eating scapegoat-crow which he found out in the wilderness.

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, horsecamp.


It makes more sense than you realize. Revelation 20:1-3 CAN INDEED be taken literally. Consider the following:

Here is the Greek text (transliterated):


20:1 Kai eidon aggelon katabainonta ek tou ouranou echonta teen klein tees abussou kai halusin megaleen epi teen cheira autou.
2 Kai ekrateesen ton drakonta, ho ofis ho archaios, hos estin diabolos kai ho satanas, kai edeesen auton chilia etee
3 kai ebalen auton eis teen abusson kai ekleisen kai esfragisen epanoo autou, hina mee planeesee eti ta ethnee achri telesthee ta chilia etee. Meta tauta dei lutheenai auton mikron chronon.


Notice carefully verse 2: It says that haSatan (the Enemy), the slanderer, was the original snake, a reptile! The word "dragon" is an English transliteration of the Greek word "drakonta" or "drakoon" ("oo" for omega), meaning "reptile or lizard!" Remember that the ORIGINAL snake didn't have to go on his belly at first! That was the result of God's curse on him! This creature was more like a small sauropod or theropod dinosaur with legs, closer to a "lizard!"

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Drakonta does not mean "lizard/reptile." It means "snake, serpent or dragon." Simply because the word is transliterated doesn't mean it does not refer to what we think of when we think of a "dragon." Baptism is transliterated from baptizo, but both mean "to dunk or immerse." Either way, this word generally refers to creatures such as giant sea serpents used in ancient mythology. Moreover, in the Septuagint, drakon is not used of Satan in Genesis 3:1. A sauropod? Where are you getting your Greek definitions?

δράκων drákōn; gen. drákontos, masc. noun from dérkomai (n.f.), to look at, behold. A dragon, a huge serpent, so–called because of his sight which is very acute (cf. óphis [3789], a serpent). The Greeks called the dragon a species of serpent because he could see so well. In the NT, drákōn is used only symbolically for Satan (Rev. 12:3, 4, 7, 9, 13, 16, 17; 13:2, 4, 11; 16:13; 20:2 [cf. Gen. 3:1ff.]).
-Complete Word Study Dictionary

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Δράκων, which the ancients derived from δέρκομαι, means "serpent,"2 esp. "dragon"3 or "sea-monster." In Rev. it is a distinctive term for Satan (12:3, 4, 7, 9, 13, 16, 17; 13:2, 4; 16:13; 20:2).
-TDNT

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drákōn means "serpent," "dragon," or "sea-monster," and is used for Satan in Rev. 12:3 etc.
-Little Kittle

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δράκων, οντος, ὁ (Hom.+; loanw. in rabb.; oft. synon. w. ὄφις [PGM 36, 183; 196], which strictly defined its species and δράκων genus, but s. LfgrE II, col. 345f on Homer; Boll 42, 5; 103) dragon, serpent, a sobriquet for the devil
-BDAG

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Shalom, Wormwood.

Wormwood said:

Drakonta does not mean "lizard/reptile." It means "snake, serpent or dragon." Simply because the word is transliterated doesn't mean it does not refer to what we think of when we think of a "dragon." Baptism is transliterated from baptizo, but both mean "to dunk or immerse." Either way, this word generally refers to creatures such as giant sea serpents used in ancient mythology. Moreover, in the Septuagint, drakon is not used of Satan in Genesis 3:1. A sauropod? Where are you getting your Greek definitions?

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Yes, it does because "dragon" refers to a "large snake or lizard." Shall we use your own quotations?

δράκων drákōn; gen. drákontos, masc. noun from dérkomai (n.f.), to look at, behold. A dragon, a huge serpent, so–called because of his sight which is very acute (cf. óphis [3789], a serpent). The Greeks called the dragon a species of serpent because he could see so well. In the NT, drákōn is used only symbolically for Satan (Rev. 12:3, 4, 7, 9, 13, 16, 17; 13:2, 4, 11; 16:13; 20:2 [cf. Gen. 3:1ff.]).
-Complete Word Study Dictionary

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Notice the part that I've highlighted in red above:

Δράκων, which the ancients derived from δέρκομαι, means "serpent,"2 esp. "dragon"3 or "sea-monster." In Rev. it is a distinctive term for Satan (12:3, 4, 7, 9, 13, 16, 17; 13:2, 4; 16:13; 20:2).
-TDNT

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The abbreviation "esp." means "especially," in other words, an instance of "serpent" is a "dragon" or an instance of "serpent" is a "sea-monster."

drákōn means "serpent," "dragon," or "sea-monster," and is used for Satan in Rev. 12:3 etc.
-Little Kittle

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This is basically a repeat of the above definition, but notice again that "serpent" is at least ONE of the meanings of "drakoon," according to this lexicon or dictionary.

δράκων, οντος, ὁ (Hom.+; loanw. in rabb.; oft. synon. w. ὄφις [PGM 36, 183; 196], which strictly defined its species and δράκων genus, but s. LfgrE II, col. 345f on Homer; Boll 42, 5; 103) dragon, serpent, a sobriquet for the devil
-BDAG

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Notice here, too, that we're getting into more scientific particulars: Genus = drakoon, species = ophis, using the old taxonomy system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakes

Snakes are elongated, legless, carnivorous reptiles of the suborder Serpentes that can be distinguished from legless lizards by their lack of eyelids and external ears. Like all squamates, snakes are ectothermic, amniote vertebrates covered in overlapping scales. Many species of snakes have skulls with many more joints than their lizard ancestors, enabling them to swallow prey much larger than their heads with their highly mobile jaws. To accommodate their narrow bodies, snakes' paired organs (such as kidneys) appear one in front of the other instead of side by side, and most have only one functional lung. Some species retain apelvic girdle with a pair of vestigial claws on either side of the cloaca.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptile

Reptiles are tetrapod vertebrates, either having four limbs or, like snakes, being descended from four-limbed ancestors.

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First of all, I don't believe in the current, evolutionary explanation for the origin of the species; I believe in the OLD taxonomy that simply believed that God created the various animals as they currently exist with minor inter-species variations. The similarities among the species denote a common CREATOR, not a common ancestry. Nevertheless, there were/are taxonomists who recognize that there are distinctions between the kingdoms, phyla, orders, genera, and species, and that these distinctions are enough for classification - not to prove common ancestry, but to determine how to care for these animals and to predict their needs and instincts.

Second, please consult the morphology of the word, "Dragon":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon

Name




Dragon head on a roof of a temple inTaiwan


The word dragon entered the English language in the early 13th century from Old French dragon, which in turn comes from Latin draconem (nominative draco) meaning "huge serpent, dragon," from the Greek word δράκων, drakon (genitive drakontos, δράκοντος) "serpent, giant seafish". The Greek and Latin term referred to any great serpent, not necessarily mythological, and this usage was also current in English up to the 18th century.

Morphology
A dragon is a mythological representation of a reptile. In antiquity, dragons were mostly envisaged as serpents, but since the Middle Ages, it has become common to depict them with legs, resembling a lizard.
Dragons are usually shown in modern times with a body like a huge lizard, or a snake with two pairs of lizard-type legs, and able to emit fire from their mouths. The European dragon has bat-like wings growing from its back. A dragon-like creature with wings but only a single pair of legs is known as a wyvern.

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This is just one source, but the linkage down through time ought to be enough to help you see the morphology from a word in Greek that simply meant "a huge snake" to a word that now has its connotation of a "mythological monster!" It may take you a while to accept this change down through the thousands of years of history, but it should be interesting at the very least to recognize that NOWHERE in the Torah (the Pentateuch) does it talk about the origin of "Satan"; instead, it talks about the Fall being associated with the deception of the SNAKE, a biped or quadruped reptile that degenerated (NOT "evolved") into a snake (Genesis 3)! This original "drakoon" or "large snake" could also communicate with Chavah (Eve), convincing her that the deception was that of God. Even the evolutionists will recognize that certain species, like the velociraptors, were most likely more intelligent than previously thought in the early years of their paleontological discovery.

Don't fall for the myth that, just because the Bible uses the word "dragon," it must therefore be using symbolic language!



Shalom, daq.

daq said:

Scoffing? You are the one who boldly stated to another poster right here above in this thread:

Quote Retrobyter again:]"Yep. HaSatan was that original serpent, once a lizard, still a reptile - a snake, his legs withered in God's curse after the Fall (Gen. 3:14-15; Rev. 12:9; and Rev. 20:2)."[End quote.

You do not want to retract your statement that the Adversary-Satan-Devil-Serpent is "still a reptile - a snake"? This really is unbelievable; it is you that makes a mockery of God and his Word because you refuse to budge one iota from your strictly literal-physical interpretation of everything. The Creator uses his own creation to explain spiritual-supernal things like the attributes and qualities of either good or wicked men. Likewise when 1 Peter 5:8 is quoted you again find a way to subvert what that passage also clearly states. What do you do with the statements of the Master when he gives even more critical data concerning the attributes of the Adversary in the Parable of the Sower? Is this another one of the Parables of Messiah that you say also does not apply to you?

Matthew 13:3-4 KJV
3. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
4. And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Matthew 13:18-19 KJV
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mark 4:3-4 KJV
3. Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
4. And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

Mark 4:13-15 KJV
13. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
14. The sower soweth the word.
15. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Luke 8:4-5 KJV
4. And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable:
5. A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

Luke 8:11-12 KJV
11. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Retrobyter says that "HaSatan was that original serpent, once a lizard, still a reptile - a snake"
Yeshua says that the fowls of the air represent the Wicked One, the Satan, and the Devil in the Parable of the Sower.

Who should the disciple of the Word believe?

Retrobyter wants me to see and walk like himself according to the natural physical world.
Yeshua wants me to see and walk as he did and according to and in the Spirit of his Testimony.
Therefore even as we speak Retrobyter is the one eating scapegoat-crow which he found out in the wilderness.

Click to expand...

Tsk tsk tsk. You'd LIKE this to be about me vs. Yeshua`, wouldn't you? Actually, it wasn't me who said that HaSatan was that original serpent; it was Yochanan (John), the writer of Revelation, AND he said it TWICE:


Revelation 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
KJV

Revelation 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
KJV

Look up the Greek for yourself! It's that simple. Now, do you think that Yochanan had any disagreement with the Master? I don't think so! Neither do I.