The Red Dragon: Evidence Of A Prior World Age

veteran · Oct 3, 2013

Within the first 5 verses of Revelation 12 we are given a short summary of Bible history, starting with God's ordaining of Israel (the symbolic "woman" there) and when Satan first rebelled against God with drawing a third of the angels into rebellion with him, and then seeking to destroy The Child (Jesus) Who would be born of the symbolic Woman, and then in final Christ's future reign over all nations with a "rod of iron".

Within it we are given this event (in bold)...

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(KJV)

In that same Revelation 12 chapter, we are given the identity of that red dragon...

Rev 12:9
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)

So that "red dragon" is just another one of Satan's symbolic titles. He has several in Bible Scripture.

The important event to note in that Rev.12:3-4 Scripture is the time when Satan as that "red dragon" drew a third of the symbolic stars (angels) into rebellion with him against God. That event of Satan's rebellion happened in a time of old, even prior to the time of Adam and Eve. That's easy to know because Satan as "that old serpent" in God's Eden was in the role of tempter by the time of Adam and Eve, meaning Satan had already rebelled and fallen from Heaven by then, and thus already having drawn those third of the angels with him into rebellion.

One of the ways our Lord Jesus cemented this very idea there in Revelation 12 is by showing us a beast kingdom during the time of Satan's original rebellion against God...

"... and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads." (Rev.12:3)

"So what's so important about that section of the 3rd verse," one might be thinking? It's important to note because that beast kingdom given there only had "seven crowns". Notice the one our Lord Jesus mentioned in the next chapter of Revelation 13 is different and is for the end of this present world...

Rev 13:1-2
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
(KJV)

The meaning is this...

A.
Rev.12:3 beast kingdom of "seven crowns" given with the time of Satan's original rebellion:

This beast kingdom was of old, when Satan drew a third of the stars into rebellion with him. The number of horns and heads are the same as the latter one in Revelation 13:1, but the number of crowns are not.

When did this original one first exist? We KNOW it existed prior... to the time of Adam and Eve, because there is NO Scripture written anywhere about Satan ruling over a beast kingdom with seven crowns after Adam.

B.
Rev.13:1-2 beast kingdom of "ten crowns" linked to the prophecy for the end in the Book of Daniel:

The Book of Daniel describes previous pagan kingdoms as beast kingdoms, but they ALL are of the time past the man Adam. They were ancient Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, indirectly the pagan Roman empire of history. Thus the Daniel prophecy is a pattern for the beast kingdom at the end of this world that's to have ten crowns. In Daniel, we're even shown God ending it in the last days and handing over an everlasting kingdom to His saints. Yet His saints did not yet exist at the time of the Rev.12:3 seven crowned beast kingdom when Satan first rebelled.

So this is not that difficult to figure out what our Lord Jesus has revealed there in Rev.12:3-4 and Rev.13:1-2, we simply have to read it as written and consider Bible history as a whole to understand it.

Now then, since there was... a seven crowned beast kingdom at the time of Satan's original rebellion against God, what does that reveal about a prior world upon this earth? It reveals a lot, simply because we know the Rev.13:1 ten crowned beast system is DIRECTLY linked to the earth and peoples upon the earth in the last days, with a ruling structure of ten kings with a beast king on top over all of it.

Thus in the world of old, Satan setup up ten kings (ten horns) or ten powers over the earth also. And the seven headed structure, which per Rev.17 represents seven mountains, was established upon the earth back then of old too. One of the Old Testament parallels to that time and event is given in Ezekiel 31, in parable form, when Satan was once a follower and obedient to God before he rebelled against Him (see also the parable given in Ezekiel 28 about that). Did that time involve flesh man? NO! God's Word points to it as an angelic time upon this earth.

One of the reasons our Lord Jesus revealed in the short summary of Rev.12:1-5 about Satan's seven crown beast kingdom of old was so we would realize what Satan's casting out later is about with the latter Rev.12:7 forward Scripture and then with the Rev.13:1-2 Scripture about the final one in our days. Satan did it once before when he first rebelled, he's getting ready to do it again. And that's what the Rev.13:1-2 beast kingdom in our days is about.

If you have been 'sealed' by our Lord Jesus for the end of this world you should know about this relation of those two beast kingdoms separated by thousands of years. If you don't know about it yet, then you've got some major Bible studying to do.

Asyncritus · Oct 4, 2013

You're kidding me, right?

afaithfulone4u · Oct 4, 2013

He must be!

The birth of the sons of God that the whole of creation is awaiting will be the holy body of Christ with it's many body members who will rule and reign WITH CHRIST with a rod of iron the nations of their inheritance. It will be a holy nation of 144,000 being the 12 tribes of Jew and Gentile natural mothers, but were birthed to heavenly Jerusalem of the Spirit and our Father God in the image of the Son of God whom is Christ.
Rev 2:25-29
25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
KJV
Rev 12:5-6
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
KJV
Isa 66:6-9
6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before {CAUGHT UP}she travailed, she brought forth; before {CAUGHT UP}her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
KJV
As soon as the son's are birthed full term in the fullness of Christ they will be caught up, the devil is thrown down to earth and the womb/DOOR/CHRIST shall be shut by the LORD just as He shut the DOOR to the Ark of Noah's time
Gen 7:16
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
KJV
and no more entrance unto the heavenly hope. The last earth was destroyed by the flood, this one is reserved to be destroyed by fire. It will be a HOLY nation born in one day the One new man in Christ. This will happen before the WRATH of God begins.. we are now just in early birth pains.
Many who are passing on before the wrath of God is so that they are not around for the wrath of God yet they were not worthy to be caught up. The second resurrection will be for the unbelievers whose chosen destination is the lake of fire and for those who were saved, but only by grace for they did not grow in Christ to reach full term and their inheritance will be outside the Bride which is the Holy City New Jerusalem that will come down to earth after the 1,000 yrs of REST for the earth to restore her nutrients. The sons of God inherit the Bride and marry her.
Isa 62:4-5
4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzi-bah, and thy land Beulah: for the LORD delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.
5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.
KJV

1 Peter 2:8-10
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
KJV

veteran · Oct 8, 2013

Asyncritus said:
You're kidding me, right?

Why would I kid about something like that?

If you've been busy listening to doctrine coming out of today's seminaries, then stay on that if you want. I instead will stay with God's Word as written.

afaithfulone4u said:
He must be!

No, I am not kidding.

afaithfulone4u said:
As soon as the son's are birthed full term in the fullness of Christ they will be caught up, the devil is thrown down to earth and the womb/DOOR/CHRIST shall be shut by the LORD just as He shut the DOOR to the Ark of Noah's time

That statement is false, and a doctrine of men, not written Scripture. It assumes a Pre-Trib Rapture of Christ's Church prior to the tribulation, which is NOT written anywhere... in God's Word.

The casting down to earth of Satan and his angels per Rev.12:7-17 will occur PRIOR to Christ's second coming. Christ's Church on earth is not going anywhere prior to, nor during the "great tribulation" Jesus warned us about. It will be the greatest time of tribulation this world has ever experienced simply because of Satan and his host being cast down to this earth in our direct presence, as written there in Rev.12:7-17; 2 Thess.2:3-4; Rev.13:11-18; and Matt.24:23-26.

michaelvpardo · Oct 10, 2013

Another man made doctrine (Gnostic heresy). How's it feel, Vet?

Dodo_David · Oct 10, 2013

Folks, the book of Revelation is quite difficult to understand even for seminary graduates. Since the original post of this thread does not pertain to anything vital for salvation, I see no problem with veteran sharing his understanding of Revelation chapters 12 & 13.

veteran · Oct 14, 2013

Michael V Pardo said:
Another man made doctrine (Gnostic heresy). How's it feel, Vet?

It would naturally appear to be so for someone like you, since you obviously have not actually studied the actual Scriptures about it. It you had then you would have known better to mock a teaching directly from The Lord Jesus Christ in His Word.

Here's another example of what I was covering with the previous beast kingdom that Satan first rebelled with, per Rev.12:3-4.

In the following, ask yourself, "Is this one that ascends out of the bottomless pit talking about the idea of a 'beast kingdom', or of a 'beast king'?"

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(KJV)

What exactly does our Lord mean by that beast that was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and goes into perdition?

Firstly, got to stay focused and break it down, precept upon precept like our Lord said. Has any... beast kingdom of history ever ascended from the bottomless pit? We know the answer to that is no. We also know Satan in Rev.9 is described as a king, and as the angel of the bottomless pit, and per Rev.11:7 he is to ascend out of the bottomless pit in the last days (see also Rev.9:1; Rev.20:1-3).

So that identifies who this Rev.17:8 beast is. It's Satan. The phrase "and goes into perdition" is another identifier to Satan, for he is already judged and sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire.

Now the "beast that was, and is not" parts. How is that meant here in Rev.17, what's the main subject? At this point in Rev.17 John is being shown about this idea of 'beasts', and it assumes we've already understood the Rev.13 chapter that there's TWO different 'beasts'. There's a beast kingdom, and then a beast king. This Rev.17:8 Scripture is clearly about the idea of the 'beast' king, and it being Satan himself.

So just at what time was it when the beast king "was"? We know he "is not" right now, because he has not yet been cast down to the earth for the last days (i.e., the idea of his ascending from the bottomless pit in Rev.11:7 to kill God's future two witnesses in Jerusalem, and the literal events of Rev.12:7 forward).

The time when Satan "was" only makes sense IF... you already know about his rebellion of old. The idea of the phrase "beast that was, and is not" involves what role? The role of a beast king, which was established already. So it must tie to a previous time with "was". If you caught the fact that Rev.12:3-4 mentions an ancient beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns, linked with the time when Satan as the red dragon drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him, then you ought to grasp how this "was" is meant.

The "is not" part is simple. For this present world, Satan as the beast king has not been. What has been instead per this world's history? Other kings, flesh pagan kings, like the king of Babylon, kings of Assyria, etc., i.e. the Daniel animal symbol relationship John was also shown in Rev.13:1-2 about the coming final beast kingdom to be setup at the end of today's world. This symbolic link of beast kings also has to do with why our Heavenly Father at times used the titles of the king of Babylon and the Assyrian (i.e., king of Assyria) as symbolic titles for Satan too (Isa.14; Isa.10; end of Isa.30; Ezek.31).

Thusly, Satan as the beast king at one time was a beast king of old, and now he is not, and he will ascend out of the bottomless pit (for the end), and then will go into perdition (perish). That's how that Rev.17:8 verse is meant.

Per Isa.14 and Ezek.28, Satan coveting God's Throne was the specific sin of how he first rebelled against God. The existence of that Rev.12:3-4 beast kingdom of "seven crowns" at the time of his rebellion reveals that also. That was the particular sin that Satan did which started the evil and brought the need for our Lord Jesus to come to die on the cross to defeat him and death for us.

It is also the particular abomination event that will end this present world, for our Heavenly Father is going to allow Satan to come to this earth and try it again, which will do a pruning from among God's people...

II Th 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)

michaelvpardo · Oct 14, 2013

veteran said:
It would naturally appear to be so for someone like you, since you obviously have not actually studied the actual Scriptures about it. It you had then you would have known better to mock a teaching directly from The Lord Jesus Christ in His Word.

Here's another example of what I was covering with the previous beast kingdom that Satan first rebelled with, per Rev.12:3-4.

In the following, ask yourself, "Is this one that ascends out of the bottomless pit talking about the idea of a 'beast kingdom', or of a 'beast king'?"

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(KJV)

What exactly does our Lord mean by that beast that was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and goes into perdition?

Firstly, got to stay focused and break it down, precept upon precept like our Lord said. Has any... beast kingdom of history ever ascended from the bottomless pit? We know the answer to that is no. We also know Satan in Rev.9 is described as a king, and as the angel of the bottomless pit, and per Rev.11:7 he is to ascend out of the bottomless pit in the last days (see also Rev.9:1; Rev.20:1-3).

So that identifies who this Rev.17:8 beast is. It's Satan. The phrase "and goes into perdition" is another identifier to Satan, for he is already judged and sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire.

Now the "beast that was, and is not" parts. How is that meant here in Rev.17, what's the main subject? At this point in Rev.17 John is being shown about this idea of 'beasts', and it assumes we've already understood the Rev.13 chapter that there's TWO different 'beasts'. There's a beast kingdom, and then a beast king. This Rev.17:8 Scripture is clearly about the idea of the 'beast' king, and it being Satan himself.

So just at what time was it when the beast king "was"? We know he "is not" right now, because he has not yet been cast down to the earth for the last days (i.e., the idea of his ascending from the bottomless pit in Rev.11:7 to kill God's future two witnesses in Jerusalem, and the literal events of Rev.12:7 forward).

The time when Satan "was" only makes sense IF... you already know about his rebellion of old. The idea of the phrase "beast that was, and is not" involves what role? The role of a beast king, which was established already. So it must tie to a previous time with "was". If you caught the fact that Rev.12:3-4 mentions an ancient beast kingdom that had ten horns, seven heads, but only seven crowns, linked with the time when Satan as the red dragon drew a third of the angels into rebellion with him, then you ought to grasp how this "was" is meant.

The "is not" part is simple. For this present world, Satan as the beast king has not been. What has been instead per this world's history? Other kings, flesh pagan kings, like the king of Babylon, kings of Assyria, etc., i.e. the Daniel animal symbol relationship John was also shown in Rev.13:1-2 about the coming final beast kingdom to be setup at the end of today's world. This symbolic link of beast kings also has to do with why our Heavenly Father at times used the titles of the king of Babylon and the Assyrian (i.e., king of Assyria) as symbolic titles for Satan too (Isa.14; Isa.10; end of Isa.30; Ezek.31).

Thusly, Satan as the beast king at one time was a beast king of old, and now he is not, and he will ascend out of the bottomless pit (for the end), and then will go into perdition (perish). That's how that Rev.17:8 verse is meant.

Per Isa.14 and Ezek.28, Satan coveting God's Throne was the specific sin of how he first rebelled against God. The existence of that Rev.12:3-4 beast kingdom of "seven crowns" at the time of his rebellion reveals that also. That was the particular sin that Satan did which started the evil and brought the need for our Lord Jesus to come to die on the cross to defeat him and death for us.

It is also the particular abomination event that will end this present world, for our Heavenly Father is going to allow Satan to come to this earth and try it again, which will do a pruning from among God's people...

II Th 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)

If you say so then it must be true. See Yah.

Arnie Manitoba · Oct 14, 2013

Veteran feels when he interprets the bible it is ... "Gods Word"...

And everybody else is wrong.

veteran · Oct 14, 2013

When you see the great signs and wonders the coming false messiah is to do, while claiming he is God with the majority being fooled by him, like our Lord Jesus and His Apostles forewarned, then maybe, just maybe, you all will recall this matter and not be among the deceived. This topic is definitely one of the pearls, so I didn't present it in hopes the already deceived would grasp it.

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The Red Dragon: Evidence Of A Prior World Age

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