Neither shall they say Look here! or Look there!

daq · Nov 21, 2013

Where are any of the following statements of Messiah either changed, or altered, or rescinded, or expounded, or already having been fulfilled, or explained away? There are indeed many statements which are literal and can only be understood literally. In light of this fact I hope that the "literalist only" disciples, students, and interpreters will feel free to sound off and provide some answers as to how these passages are to be incorporated into ones eschatological doctrines keeping in mind the contexts in which they are written.

Matthew 24:22-28 KJV
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25. Behold, I have told you before.
26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Matthew 24:35 KJV
35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mark 13:20-23 KJV
20. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22. For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Mark 13:31 KJV
31. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luke 17:20-25 KJV
20. And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22. And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24. For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
25. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

Critical Matthew statements that must be either believed, explained, or ignored:

1) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
2) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
3) Behold, I have told you before.
4) Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
5) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Critical Mark statements that must be either believed, explained, or ignored:

1) And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
2) For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if possible, even the elect.
3) But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
4) Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Critical Luke statements that must be either believed, explained, or ignored:

1) The Kingdom of God does not come with observation:
2) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
3) The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

Question: When, if ever, do the following statements no longer apply? Scripture please!

1) The Kingdom of God does not come with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

2) And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

3) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Question: If these statements are always true then how can it be that Yeshua returns in a physical body?

ezekiel · Nov 21, 2013

when christ returns the earth will be reaped and destroyed and the new heaven and earth will be before us now in chapter 24 christ starts out with that destruction maybe if sometimes we read the last first or read backwards it would be better understood. christ was with the father before the worlds were created he is not flesh so the spirit fell over the face of the deep and said let their be light again as christ was on trial he said my kingdom is not of this world more over if someone could set and monitor you you would grow little by little you doctrines changes the kingdom is in you it is at hand every minute then you begin to build in the kingdom of heaven so its not by observation its was once said come bold to throne of god but christ said come as a child to the father thru him and ask and he will show you all things you just ask and search blessed are those that wait for christ and what do they say come christ come fast dont you know that the wicked will not have any more changes to repent it will be said let the the wicked be wicked let the holy be holy so pray for the evil . in verse 22 christ speaks of the 4 horseman for it is not his return but to send his saint to stop things for they follow satan and destroy themself and earth for christ has said the meek shall inherit the earth and must be fulfilled.

daq · Nov 21, 2013

Hello Ezekiel,

Thank you for your response.
How do you know Matthew 24:27 might be incorrectly rendered?

ezekiel said:
as christ was on trial he said my kingdom is not of this world more over if someone could set and monitor you you would grow little by little you doctrines changes the kingdom is in you it is at hand every minute then you begin to build in the kingdom of heaven so its not by observation

I say to all the "scholars" and teachers here that adhere to the "literal interpretation only" mindset that there are buried treasures hidden all around you throughout this forum and you perceive them not. Here is another question brought to our attention partly by the response of Ezekiel: When does lightning ever "come out of the east and shine all the way to west" across the entire face of the sky as stated in Matthew 24:27? Lightning from a thunderstorm does no such thing but rather cracks and breaks off in crooked and jagged spikes falling between the clouds of the sky and the earth like the fall of Satan from the heavens to the earth is said to be. The coming of the Son of man as he appears to mean it in this passage appears to be more like the first luminous rays of LIGHT at the dawning of the morning sun which are perfectly STRAIGHT beams of LIGHT coming from the east and streaming across the sky from the east all the way to the west. First comes a single brilliant ray of light, then two, then three or four, then multiplied many; until the entire sky and heavens above are filled with LIGHT as if it were all one great white beam of light from the Anatole sunrising Daystar. It comes little by little; just as Ezekiel has suggested in his comments, and once it begins it cannot be suspended or overcome because the day has begun: and the darkness flees away.

SelectThis! · Nov 21, 2013

Question: If these statements are always true then how can it be that Yeshua returns in a physical body?

Like the scriptures say, "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Who is the body of Christ below? When you knock on the door, God answers. This is Father (Aleph Bet). What does the Father do when you knock? You are asking for a loaf of bread. He tells you to gather grain.

John 6:65. He prepares you and introduces you to His Son. Again, who is the body of Christ here today (risen in the baptism of water)? You!

He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

Read 1 Corinthians 12 on the body of Christ. You are a slice of the one loaf.

1 Corinthians 10

16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

Did Christ come back? Yes. Who does God introduce you to when he opens the door and invites you in? The Son. You are the House of Seed below (Bet Nun / Son). You partake of the bread. Christ is the Heel on either side of the loaf.

The heel is Adam:

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.[h]”

Adam is the root of the trouble. Adam is also the Redeemer. We, who are many, have traveled with this loaf from the beginning. Baptism is the flood carrying the beasts in the water in pairs.

1 Peter 3

19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

1 Peter 4

6 For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Resurrection is Baptism into the waters of the flood here on the ARK called Earth. Earth is a refinery (Deuteronomy 4:19). We must be here to be refined. Salvation comes when we are fished out of the water. If we are here, we are the body of Christ below.

Are you in the waters? Who are you? You can only know if the Father prepares you to know. I can tell you, but only those who have prepared will hear. Ears (Grain) must be opened. Soil must be tilled. Water must be applied and the seed must be opened.

You are in BOTH places at once: The Child and the Angel.

Matthew 18

10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Thread to Read

Judged according to the body below, but live according to the Spirit above. 1 Peter 4:6. Christ is there. You are here. You are Christ below (body) and He is above. At Salvation, you will know as you are known. You will know God and finally be in his presence. Not yet.

daq · Nov 21, 2013

SelectThis! said:
Judged according to the body below, but live according to the Spirit above. 1 Peter 4:6. Christ is there. You are here. You are Christ below (body) and He is above. At Salvation, you will know as you are known. You will know God and finally be in his presence. Not yet.

How can you be sure your judgment is sound for all people though it may be true of most? How do you know me or whether I be here or there? Where I am there is no temple of my own, and there is no need of the sun, nor the moon, and there is no night. And Messiah is not "there" but rather "here" and, yes, he is from and of above.

Deuteronomy 28:1-26 KJV
1. And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
2. And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God.
3. Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
4. Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
5. Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
6. Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
7. The Lord shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
8. The Lord shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
9. The Lord shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the Lord thy God, and walk in his ways.
10. And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of Lord; and they shall be afraid of thee.
11. And the Lord shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
12. The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
13. And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:
14. And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
15. But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
16. Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
17. Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
18. Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
19. Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
20. The Lord shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
21. The Lord shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.
22. The Lord shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
23. And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.
24. The Lord shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
25. The Lord shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
26. And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.

I say to you that every one of these things and more has come to pass upon myself, including both the blessings and the curses, because of my own stiff neck and uncircumcised heart. What about you? If not then you do not know me and neither can you unless and until the Father drag you before the Son, (Bematos tou Christou in this case). After that you will be of above only as the Scripture says in the underlined portion of the passage quoted above, (and especially in all doctrine). Remember Lot's wife: No one, having put his hand to the plough and looking back, is fit for the Kingdom of God. As for the thread topic question it is not perfectly clear whether you agree or disagree because you state that Yeshua has already returned. For many, that is many, many, Yeshua has not yet returned. Therefore the Master says at the end of the Olivet Discourse in the Gospel of Mark: "What I say unto you I say unto all, WATCH!" This dovetails back into the thread topic because if the disciples of the Word and of Messiah are watching for all the wrong signs, (that which is seen according to the eyes and mind of the flesh) then how can they possibly be ready when he comes? This is critical and the very reasoning for why we are told to test or try the spirits to see whether they be of God or not. When a disciple first enters into Yeshua faith the Master then likens himself to an householder taking a far journey, (Mark 13:34). While the housemaster is away the disciple is become the porter of the house.

Pelaides · Nov 21, 2013

This is really a silly topic.

John 20:27-29 "Then said he to thomas,reach hither thy finger,and behold my hands;and reach hither thy hand ,and thrust it into my side:and be not faithless,but believing..."

It looks like Christ returned in a bodily form.

daq · Nov 22, 2013

Question: When, if ever, do the following statements no longer apply? Scripture please!

1) The Kingdom of God does not come with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

2) And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

3) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Question: If these statements are always true then how can it be that Yeshua returns in a physical body?

Pelaides said:
This is really a silly topic.

John 20:27-29 "Then said he to thomas,reach hither thy finger,and behold my hands;and reach hither thy hand ,and thrust it into my side:and be not faithless,but believing..."

It looks like Christ returned in a bodily form.

So then would it also be silly for me to ask how you came to the conclusion that all of the statements of Yeshua quoted in the OP were suddenly "put on hold" or rendered inoperable or ineffective after his resurrection when Thomas and the other disciples "saw" him in the upper room? How exactly was it that they "saw" him because there are quite a few words used in various ways for sight, for seeing, for perception-perceiving, for visions, for beholding, even for watching, thus the Testimony of Yeshua is the only way to know what occurs in the upper room. There was a place where this has been discussed but I cannot remember the thread for now. However, you would have to discount the statements in the OP to hold your position in your reply and those statements in the OP are not statements I myself made but rather Yeshua himself. The only thing you have shown is that you are willing to ignore the statements in the OP made by Messiah in your understanding of what occurred in the upper room. You understand that beginning with Mary Magdalene the disciples are recording visions after the resurrection correct? The last two chapters of John likewise contain visions and portions of visions which likewise are only understood fully in combination with the visions and portions of visions recorded in the other Gospel narratives. As for your comment that this thread is silly I would suggest to you that silly is ignoring the clear statements of the Master because what they "saw" is explained by Yeshua himself and they explain in the terms which he employed in those passages.

John 14:18-24 KJV
18. I will not leave you comfortless: [orphanos-orphans] I will come to you.
19. Yet a little while, and the world seeth [GSN#2334 theoreo] me no more; but ye see [GSN#2334 theoreo] me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word [Logos] which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 16:16-20 KJV
16. A little while, and ye shall not see [GSN#2334 theoreo] me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see [GSN#3700 optanomai] me, because I go to the Father.
17. Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: [GSN#2334 theoreo] and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: [GSN#3700 optanomai] and, Because I go to the Father?
18. They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
19. Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: [GSN#2334 theoreo] and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? [GSN#3700 optanomai]
20. Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

And again these things are first given in proverbs and sayings:

John 16:21-25 KJV
21. A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

So what then is the difference between theoreo and optanomai? The Greek scholars will probably tell you not much, they will probably even tell you that you are correct and that this thread is silly, but I say to you that they are deceived if they tell you this and you will be deceived if you listen to such. The only way to know the difference is how the words are employed by the Master himself within their proper contexts. You may say that this is not so critical as I make it to sound but then I would say what if the authors who penned the sacred texts wrote them in such a way that every single word is hinged upon and dedicated to exactly what the Master said to them? Do you think these things were lackadaisical and silliness to them as they considered what they wrote? Yeshua says yet a little while and they would not theoreo see him, then, a little while, and they would optonomai see him. This optanomai is the same word employed in the Revelation of Yeshua where every eye, (singular) shall see Messiah when he comes with the clouds. Why is the "eye" in the following passage singular? Because if one heeds the doctrine of the Master then he will have already plucked out that offensive right eye and cast him out from himself. He that hath two ears let him buy a sword; he that hath an ear to hear let him hear.

Revelation 1:7 KJV
7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye [singular] shall see [GSN#3700 optanomai] him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

SelectThis! · Nov 22, 2013

Pelaides said:
This is really a silly topic.

John 20:27-29 "Then said he to thomas,reach hither thy finger,and behold my hands;and reach hither thy hand ,and thrust it into my side:and be not faithless,but believing..."

It looks like Christ returned in a bodily form.

This is the final body. We do not receive this yet. There are diverse kinds of bodies.

1 Corinthians 15

[SIZE=.75em]35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]36 How foolish! [/SIZE]What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. [SIZE=.75em]37 When you sow, [/SIZE]you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. [SIZE=.75em]38 [/SIZE]But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. [SIZE=.75em]39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.[/SIZE]

We are on Earth until we find final salvation above. This cannot happen until Christ returns for the Bride and we enter the Day of the Lord. It's a timetable.

daq · Nov 22, 2013

Bold blue underline emphasis mine:

SelectThis! said:
This is the final body. We do not receive this yet. There are diverse kinds of bodies.

1 Corinthians 15

[SIZE=.75em]35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]36 How foolish! [/SIZE]What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. [SIZE=.75em]37 When you sow, [/SIZE]you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. [SIZE=.75em]38 [/SIZE]But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. [SIZE=.75em]39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.[/SIZE]

We are on Earth until we find final salvation above. This cannot happen until Christ returns for the Bride and we enter the Day of the Lord. It's a timetable.

Perhaps your "timetable" is in error because it appears you do not perceive that some do indeed put on the body pneumatikos before the actual physical death of the body psuchikos. The body pneumatikos cannot be seen with the physical eyes of the flesh. In the New Covenant writings physical death is not even recognized by the authors because the Master clearly states that the flesh profits nothing. If you truly desire to understand them you must believe what they believed when they wrote what they wrote; and they believe the Master when he states that the flesh is completely unprofitable for anything, (especially doctrine).

Before any plant of the field was in the earth, and before any herb of the field had sprouted, (for the Lord God had not yet rained upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the soil) there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the soil. And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the soil, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and became the man into a living soul. And so it is written, Became the first man Adam into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit. The first man is from the soil, dusty, soil-like; the second man is from the heavens. In the third yom God planted a garden of delights called Eden-Delight and there he put the first man whom he had formed. And from the soil made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, for in the yom that thou eatest thereof; Dying, thou shalt die! In the opening of the fourth yom God said; Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the yom from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the yom, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light upon the earth, and to rule over the yom and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And was evening and was morning, Yom Rbiy`iy, (and one yom beside the Lord is as it were a thousand years; and a thousand years as one yom). So the first man with his wife dwelt in Eden-Delights, in the fourth yom and in the fifth yom, as it were two thousand years: but in the sixth yom the first man with his wife did eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and died. But God refreshed the first man with his wife, and he clothed them with the second man from heaven, in the sixth yom, and that Adam lived 930 years being written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, (Genesis 5). Thus, for chronological purposes, there be 2130 years to the birth of Seth; for God said in the opening of Yom Rbiy`iy: Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the yom from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: thus time commences therein.

When a person enters into Yeshua faith he or she is given the earnest-down payment of the Spirit:

Ephesians 1:12-14 KJV
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

2 Corinthians 1:19-22 KJV
19. For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
21. Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:1-5 KJV
1. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3. If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Receiving the Promise is therefore to be clothed from on high but first one must do the will of God:

Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV
35. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
38. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
39. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

If a disciple refuse to do the will of God then neither shall the same be clothed from on high, (Temples).

Pelaides · Nov 22, 2013

daq said:
Question: When, if ever, do the following statements no longer apply? Scripture please!

1) The Kingdom of God does not come with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

2) And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

3) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Question: If these statements are always true then how can it be that Yeshua returns in a physical body?

So then would it also be silly for me to ask how you came to the conclusion that all of the statements of Yeshua quoted in the OP were suddenly "put on hold" or rendered inoperable or ineffective after his resurrection when Thomas and the other disciples "saw" him in the upper room? How exactly was it that they "saw" him because there are quite a few words used in various ways for sight, for seeing, for perception-perceiving, for visions, for beholding, even for watching, thus the Testimony of Yeshua is the only way to know what occurs in the upper room. There was a place where this has been discussed but I cannot remember the thread for now. However, you would have to discount the statements in the OP to hold your position in your reply and those statements in the OP are not statements I myself made but rather Yeshua himself. The only thing you have shown is that you are willing to ignore the statements in the OP made by Messiah in your understanding of what occurred in the upper room. You understand that beginning with Mary Magdalene the disciples are recording visions after the resurrection correct? The last two chapters of John likewise contain visions and portions of visions which likewise are only understood fully in combination with the visions and portions of visions recorded in the other Gospel narratives. As for your comment that this thread is silly I would suggest to you that silly is ignoring the clear statements of the Master because what they "saw" is explained by Yeshua himself and they explain in the terms which he employed in those passages.

John 14:18-24 KJV
18. I will not leave you comfortless: [orphanos-orphans] I will come to you.
19. Yet a little while, and the world seeth [GSN#2334 theoreo] me no more; but ye see [GSN#2334 theoreo] me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word [Logos] which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 16:16-20 KJV
16. A little while, and ye shall not see [GSN#2334 theoreo] me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see [GSN#3700 optanomai] me, because I go to the Father.
17. Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: [GSN#2334 theoreo] and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: [GSN#3700 optanomai] and, Because I go to the Father?
18. They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.
19. Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: [GSN#2334 theoreo] and again, a little while, and ye shall see me? [GSN#3700 optanomai]
20. Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

And again these things are first given in proverbs and sayings:

John 16:21-25 KJV
21. A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.
22. And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.
23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
24. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
25. These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

So what then is the difference between theoreo and optanomai? The Greek scholars will probably tell you not much, they will probably even tell you that you are correct and that this thread is silly, but I say to you that they are deceived if they tell you this and you will be deceived if you listen to such. The only way to know the difference is how the words are employed by the Master himself within their proper contexts. You may say that this is not so critical as I make it to sound but then I would say what if the authors who penned the sacred texts wrote them in such a way that every single word is hinged upon and dedicated to exactly what the Master said to them? Do you think these things were lackadaisical and silliness to them as they considered what they wrote? Yeshua says yet a little while and they would not theoreo see him, then, a little while, and they would optonomai see him. This optanomai is the same word employed in the Revelation of Yeshua where every eye, (singular) shall see Messiah when he comes with the clouds. Why is the "eye" in the following passage singular? Because if one heeds the doctrine of the Master then he will have already plucked out that offensive right eye and cast him out from himself. He that hath two ears let him buy a sword; he that hath an ear to hear let him hear.

Revelation 1:7 KJV
7. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye [singular] shall see [GSN#3700 optanomai] him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

So you are trying to say that the Jesus that appeared to his disciples,was not Jesus but a false Jesus?

SelectThis! said:
This is the final body. We do not receive this yet. There are diverse kinds of bodies.

1 Corinthians 15

[SIZE=.75em]35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?”[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]36 How foolish! [/SIZE]What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. [SIZE=.75em]37 When you sow, [/SIZE]you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. [SIZE=.75em]38 [/SIZE]But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. [SIZE=.75em]39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.[/SIZE] [SIZE=.75em]41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.[/SIZE]

We are on Earth until we find final salvation above. This cannot happen until Christ returns for the Bride and we enter the Day of the Lord. It's a timetable.

When you say we are you refering to man,or Jesus?Jesus was a son of God not a man.

Luke24:39,40 "Behold my hands and my feet,that is i myself:handle me and see;for a spirit hath not flesh and bones,as you see me have..."

daq · Nov 22, 2013

Pelaides said:
So you are trying to say that the Jesus that appeared to his disciples,was not Jesus but a false Jesus?

It is clear to the one who walks according to the Spirit that I said no such thing.

Pelaides · Nov 22, 2013

daq said:
It is clear to the one who walks according to the Spirit that I said no such thing.

Well to tell you the truth,i dont understand what point or points you you are trying to make.Your posts are long ,and confusing,You write alot but you dont say anything,You seem more concerned with impressing people with your writing ability,than with your knowledge of scripture.Why do constantly play word games?and quote in languages no one understands?

daq · Nov 22, 2013

Pelaides said:
Well to tell you the truth,i dont understand what point or points you you are trying to make.Your posts are long ,and confusing,You write alot but you dont say anything,You seem more concerned with impressing people with your writing ability,than with your knowledge of scripture.Why do constantly play word games?and quote in languages no one understands?

If you still do not understand the question in the OP then why did you not ask for clarification rather than calling the thread "silly" as you did? However if you do understand the question, yet do not have an answer, is that any reason to berate the person who asked the question? Yeshua says again:

1) The Kingdom of God does not come with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

2) And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

3) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Please explain with Scripture how it is you know that one day everyone will see Yeshua returning to the earth with their physical eyes of the flesh when it is a direct contradiction to what Yeshua says of himself. If this thread is so "silly" then you must surely have the answer as to why you know your doctrine to be correct when it seemingly contradicts the Word of Messiah which he states shall never pass away. According to the modern eschatology scholars Yeshua is going to return to the earth in a resurrected supernatural but physical body and rule over the earth from Jerusalem and a "millennial" temple for a thousand years. You may or may not believe every one of these things, or may have your own variations of the same events as most do, but this is the point of the thread and what the question concerns because Yeshua clearly and emphatically says that if anyone tells you such fleshly and physical things; "Go not after them!" for "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you!" and "Then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: for false Christs and false prophets shall rise".

I suppose it is not as difficult to understand as it is to accept when it means that your doctrine may be in error.
However, if one loves God and his Word then the Truth should not be an offense to him.

Pelaides · Nov 22, 2013

when you were a baby you drank milk,but when you were of age milk was no longer neccisary,when jesus returns things will be different.

Luke24:39,40

Revelation 22:3,4 "...And they shall see his face;and his name shall be on their foreheads.

these 2 verses clearly describe Jesus in a physical body.

daq · Nov 23, 2013

Pelaides said:
when you were a baby you drank milk,but when you were of age milk was no longer neccisary,when jesus returns things will be different.

Luke24:39,40

Revelation 22:3,4 "...And they shall see his face;and his name shall be on their foreheads.

these 2 verses clearly describe Jesus in a physical body.

I see, so you just stopped in to let me know how silly this thread is, then insinuated I am preaching that a "fake Jesus" showed up in the Upper Room, and now you proclaim that your "real" version of the Messiah is going to appear in the flesh and literally write his name on your literal forehead? Did Paul see Yeshua in bodily form on the road to Damascus or did he see a brilliant blinding white Light? Here is a short excerpt from one of many places where these things have already been discussed in this forum board:

daq said:
[Without Torah we know nothing of what things Yeshua spoke, taught, and expounded.] The story of the passing of Jacob in Egypt and his so-called "embalming" (most English translations) has everything to do with the burial of Messiah and how it was performed. Israel was not however "embalmed" but rather "spiced" upon his passing in the land of Egypt. Likewise the physicians of Joseph, (not those of Pharaoh) which performed the spicing ceremony are called rapha'-healers, and this form of rapha' is likewise from where the name of the messenger Rapha'el is derived.

Genesis 50:2-3 KJV
2. And Joseph commanded his servants the physicians [HSN#7495 rapha'] to embalm [HSN#2590 chanat] his father: and the physicians [HSN#7495 rapha'] embalmed [HSN#2590 chanat] Israel.
3. And forty days were fulfilled for him; for so are fulfilled the days of those which are embalmed: [HSN#2590 chanat] and the Egyptians mourned for him threescore and ten days.

Original Strong's Ref. #7495
Romanized rapha'
Pronounced raw-faw'
or raphah {raw-faw'}; a primitive root; properly, to mend (by stitching), i.e. (figuratively) to cure:
KJV--cure, (cause to) heal, physician, repair, X thoroughly, make whole. See HSN7503.

Original Strong's Ref. #2590
Romanized chanat
Pronounced khaw-nat'
a primitive root; to spice; by implication, to embalm; also to ripen:
KJV--embalm, put forth.

Forty Days are "fulfilled" for Israel, ("for so it is with those having been spiced").
The same Forty Days are again fulfilled in Yeshua who was likewise "spiced" at burial:

John 19:38-40 KJV
38. And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
39. And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
40. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

Forty Days ~ 17 Nisan to 27 Iyyar ~ Acts 1:9

Luke 24:42 KJV (17 Nisan - Firstfruits of the Harvest)
42. And they gave him a piece of a broiled [baked on coals] fish, and of an honeycomb.

Elijah goes the same Forty Days on a small meal to Horeb the Mountain of God:

1 Kings 19:1-8 KJV
5. And as he lay and slept under a juniper tree, behold, then an angel touched him, and said unto him, Arise and eat.
6. And he looked, and, behold, there was a cake baken on the coals, and a cruse of water at his head. And he did eat and drink, and laid him down again.
7. And the angel of the Lord came again the second time, and touched him, and said, Arise and eat; because the journey is too great for thee.
8. And he arose, and did eat and drink, and went in the strength of that meat forty days and forty nights unto Horeb the mount of God.

Acts 1:2-3 KJV
2. Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
3. To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Yeshua was seen of them Forty Days and then received up into a cloud on 27 Iyyar.
27 Iyyar is the Day wherein Noah and his family came forth from the Ark and offered up burnt offerings to God:

Genesis 8:14-21 KJV
14. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
15. And God spake unto Noah, saying,
16. Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
17. Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
18. And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
19. Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.
20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

And the Father smelled the sweet savour of THE SMOKE of the burnt offering ascending up into heaven.

Acts 1:9 KJV (27 Iyyar)
9. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

2 Corinthians 5:16 KJV
16. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

So you see Paul is correct and you are not. And why? Because Paul loved the Father, loved Torah, and then he met Yeshua on the road to Damascus. And when Paul met Yeshua what he saw was a pure white blinding Light; no man, no body, only the Light.

ajdiamond · Nov 23, 2013

Pelaides said:
Revelation 22:3,4 "...And they shall see his face;and his name shall be on their foreheads.

With forehead representing the place of the mind, this speaks, on one level, of the mind of Christ in you, here and now.

His name shall be on, in, or upon their foreheads (depending on which translation you use).

You have heard it said, name = nature? So, name in their foreheads is: His nature in their foreheads.

This speaks of when one has left their habitual, discursive, natural-mind, "sin nature" consciousness and has moved into being centered in and "operating" from the mind of Christ consciousness. Which all happens within you...a movement of awareness from the default carnal center to The Divine Kingdom within; a movement of your awareness from being centered in the natural mind to being IMMERSED in the mind of Christ/in the Divine nature. In other words, IN CHRIST.

Bonus: You have heard it said, believe in the name of the Lord? This says, believe into the nature of Christ.

Advanced Bonus: Perhaps from the above, one can connect the dots and glimpse what the "mark of the beast" in the forehead is actually talking about.

h34r:

ENOCH2010 · Nov 23, 2013

Is the sin nature to be taken allegorically or do you get to choose to make sin literal ?

dragonfly · Nov 23, 2013

Hi Pelaides,

John 20:27-29 "Then said he to thomas,reach hither thy finger,and behold my hands;and reach hither thy hand ,and thrust it into my side:and be not faithless,but believing..."

It looks like Christ returned in a bodily form.

I gave you a rep for pointing out that Jesus has already returned in bodily form.

Seeing God face to face is a subject that goes way back in scripture, so I think it's quite important to take into account that long before Jesus came, psalmists talked about seeking God's face, meaning, seeking to know more of Him.

If you think about it, when the Bible says that 'Noah found grace in the sight of the Lord', it is very much suggesting that Noah and God could see each other. daq may have a comment about that, because he knows whether the Hebrew is saying 'see with eyes', or 'see with insight'. Without doubt, God can see each of us all the time whether it is day or night (light or dark).

Whether we see God with the eyes of our inner vision (our heart's eyes) depends on whether our heart is seeking to be in His presence (as it should be) and being in His presence the whole time by His Spirit. I believe this is what Paul is referring to in 2 Corinthians 3:18.

In the very next chapter, Paul refers to 'the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ'. 2 Cor 4:6

In the chapter following, (already quoted above by daq), Paul says:

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Paul is not saying we don't know Christ any more because we cannot see His body. He is saying not only can we see Him with the eyes of our inner man by the Holy Spirit, but we know Him that way, too (which is much more than seeing with the eyes in the front of your head).

Hi Enoch,

Is the sin nature to be taken allegorically or do you get to choose to make sin literal ?

Apart from the fact that the phrase 'sin nature' appears nowhere in scripture, surely it is clear to you that sin is very literal, because Jesus Christ came for the sole purpose of doing away with sin. And He did.

If you can begin to understand that Jesus Christ embodied God's values completely all the time in everything He thought and did without fault or flaw, you can, perhaps, begin to see that this is what He is after in us: a demonstration of having taken His mind (heart), attitudes, values into our own hearts, to be lived out moment by moment according to His life within us by His Spirit. Paul writing in Romans 6, puts it this way:

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God,
as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

ajdiamond · Nov 23, 2013

ENOCH2010 said:
Is the sin nature to be taken allegorically or do you get to choose to make sin literal ?

Hi Enoch:

You have heard it said, that in the Father we live and move and have our being? (Acts 17:28)
If we have our being in Him, that is The Reality and all else is persistent illusion.
And what is "being" if it not be a "nature"?

Have you not heard that you are a son of God? Is not the Father, your Father?
Are you not made in his likeness and his image of his substance?
Do horses beget cats, do bears beget eagles?
If you are the offspring of God (Acts 17:28), what is your nature?
Have you not heard of those who partake of the divine nature? (2Pet 1:4)

One may believe that they are of another nature.
And as that man thinketh, so is he (Prov 23:7).
One's "sinful nature" persists as long as one thinks it so.
Hear Paul teach on sin, that it is something to be put off (Col 3:8).
Sin is more like a tattered shirt or an old shoe, than it is an inherent nature.

And when that is realized,
Then that one, who longs for the Real, might know what is his true nature,
And in Whom we live and move and have our being.

The mystery of Christ in you, is what this is all about.
In Christ--you, Enoch, being In Christ--is what this is all about.
In the divine Christ mind nature being consciousness.

All else misses the mark.

ENOCH2010 · Nov 23, 2013

Yes I know that sin is literal, just as I know that the Lord will return literally and that return will be in a literal body that every eye will see.

Neither shall they say Look here! or Look there!

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