It is mandatory for BACs to participate in their salvation

Huh? What is the OP supposed to mean, and what are BACs?

Dodo_David said:

Huh? What is the OP supposed to mean, and what are BACs?

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Easy! It's the New York Stock Exchange ticker symbol for Bank of America (BAC).

Bank of America? It would be humorous were the words in the op not such a serious misrepresentation of the truth. Born again Christians (bac's) are under attack as they always have been, right from the very first revelations that Paul gave concerning the covenant of grace. His rebuke of the Galatians was over this very subject of the op. Are we being made perfect by the flesh? (Gal.3:3) Paul says no. And in case there is some confusion about what he meant by that question, he was speaking of the attempt to be justified by the keeping of law....AFTER HAVING BEEN GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE.

His comment in Gal.3:21 sums it up nicely...." Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! FOR IF THERE HAD BEEN A LAW GIVEN THAT COULD HAVE GIVEN LIFE, TRULY RIGHTEOUSNESS WOULD HAVE BEEN BY THE LAW". vs.22..." But the scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise BY FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST MIGHT BE GIVEN TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE".

Keep in mind, E-7, I repeat... that those words are in a context in which Paul was addressing their folly of mixing works of law to faith for justification. This is after the fact of their having been given life and having been filled with the Spirit.

Paul mentions that love is the fulfillment of the law. But he has already qualified that by revealing that the law does not justify one for life. So he is neither saying that love justifies one for life. He is merely informing them of that which I will put in my own words.....

The demonstration of righteousness and the fulfillment of law in the believer's life is not seen in the things he doesn't do, but rather in the things he does do. Yes, we are told to abstain from sin. But the motive for this is NOT to maintain our eternal life that we received by faith in the blood of Jesus. Do we insult His sacrifice by adding our own effort to it? According to the op, that is what is being proposed.

Yes, we are told to bear fruit. But how much is enough? Perfection is not attainable. Jesus came and delivered the requirement of law to those under the law so that the law could do its work of convicting them of their sin. In telling them to be perfect, He was not giving them something that was attainable. He was taking away their confidence in the flesh. Those who are trusting in the law cannot hear the message of grace. They first need to be tutored by the law so that they are made aware of their need for a savior. This was a common practice of Jesus. It is a mistake to render these cases as new covenant commands and instructions.

All the way through scripture we see two prevailing themes in God's communication to man. The first one is that there is only ONE GOD. Why would He insist on saying this over and over? Because this is the original offense. Lucifer left his created purpose and embarked on an agenda to be like God. And when a man tries to accomplish only that which God can accomplish, he is playing with the same fire. For example...be perfect as God is perfect....Good luck with that one, my friend.

The second prevailing theme is that God assures us over and over and over that He is good and can be trusted. Faith is a demonstration of trust. When He makes A promise and a person accepts this promise, he is showing his trust in the goodness and faithfulness of God. God made a promise to Abraham that his seed would originate from a barren wife. Abraham tried to help God fulfill this promise with a son from the slave woman. Paul called that son he who was born of the flesh. But God fulfilled His promise by doing the impossible. When Abraham finally believed God, it was placed to his account (imputed) as righteousness.

Our righteousness comes the same way; when we trust God and believe His promise. ANY ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN THIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ANY OTHER WAY THAN BY TRUSTING AND BELIEVING, IS THE SAME AS REVERTING BACK TO THE FLESH. IT IS A SHOW OF UNBELIEF. E-7 is worthy of the same question that Paul asked the Galatians..."who has bewitched you" . Does God really need your help?

evangelist-7 said:

“Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many I tell you will seek to enter and will not be able.”
(Luke 13:24)

Qvestion of the month:

What does this “striving” have to do with being incredibly blessed with God’s free gift of grace-faith?

I.E. Would this "striving" come before, during, or after, being born-again?

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Well, it's narrow... So you, being fat and your works and righteousness (being fatter) can't fit. I unloaded.... I gave Jesus my baggage and walked through naked.

You welcome.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV): "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

We participate in the salvation process by having faith in Christ Jesus alone.

Romans 4:4-8
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”


4:4–5. The apostle then discussed the significance of this Scripture quotation. He pointed out that a worker’s wages are what are owed him because he earned them, and are not graciously given to him as a gift. Conversely, a person who is not working but is believing on (these participles are in the pres. tense) God who justifies the wicked (asebē, “the ungodly, impious”; cf. 5:6), his faith is credited as righteousness (cf. 4:3). Abraham was the latter kind of person as the Scripture stated. He was justified not because he worked for it but because he trusted God.

To brand the emphasis on the works of Abraham in Jewish literature as legalistic would be misleading (cf. G. Davies 1990: 155–58). All Jews believed that Abraham’s works flowed from God’s grace, and Paul also insisted that God’s grace produces a changed life. Nonetheless, the emphasis on the works of Abraham in Jewish literature could easily lead to a synergism that is lacking in Pauline theology (G. Davies 1990: 158). What marks off Paul from some of his Jewish contemporaries is his emphasis that faith constitutes the means by which one obtains righteousness, and that Abraham was part of the people of God before he kept the law by receiving circumcision. Paul would not deny that works are necessary to obtain eternal life. But Paul departs from the flow of Jewish tradition in describing Abraham as “godless” (ἀσεβῆ, asebē).

The person who works for a wage considers payment not a gift but a debt (v. 4). It must be noted that this commonsense observation from everyday life is introduced in a context that relates to justification before God. Thus Paul implies that if righteousness is based on one’s works, then it is not a gift but owed to that person as something obtained (at least partially) by self-effort. It follows that the person who does the works should receive praise, honor, and glory. Boasting would be appropriate since the payment—which is justification in this context—is earned by works. Paul clarifies in verse 5 that righteousness is not based on works but is available to the one who believes that God justifies the ungodly. Since human beings are often deluded by their goodness, thinking that it is sufficient to warrant justification, Paul reminds us that no one’s goodness merits God’s approval.


James 1:22-24
22 But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24 for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.


This concept of the word “written on the heart” does not mean that we possess automatic knowledge of God’s will. Rather, the idea is that we have access to God’s word and, especially, that we have new hearts, moved by the Spirit to enable us to obey that word. Some Christians have made the mistake of pushing the metaphor of the “implanted” word—and others like it in the NT—too far and concluded that believers are almost totally passive with respect to the revealing and doing of God’s will. The very clear commands in this passage and in many others for Christians to take an active role in both hearing and doing should show how imbalanced such a view really is.
And so, James insists, listening to God’s word must lead to “doing” it. Only then are we truly “accepting” the word. With this exhortation we find ourselves right at the heart of James’s pastoral concern; and v. 22 is rightly the best-known verse in the letter. Paul reflects this Jewish perspective at one stage of his argument in Romans: “it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous” (Rom. 2:13). And, last but not least, James shows again here his dependence on the teaching of Jesus: “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it” (Luke 11:28). In his message of the kingdom, Jesus announced the overwhelming, amazing wonder of God’s sovereign grace reaching down to reclaim sinful people for himself. But no one emphasized as strongly as Jesus the need for people touched by God’s grace to respond with a radical, world-renouncing obedience. Both the gracious initiative of God and the grateful response of human beings are necessary aspects of the gospel. The word, through which we are born into new life (v. 18) and which becomes implanted in us (v. 21), is a word that must be put into practice.


The question in perspective is what is the motive for your works. It is not questioned whether or not they accompany a salvific walk, simply where is your heart in regards to doing the works. If it is you are working for your salvation, then it is a wage you seek and your reward will be reaped here. If it is you are working out of the moving of the HolySpirit, then it is the gift working in you and your reward will be reaped in the eternal.

We participate with Christ in furthering His Kingdom, but we'd be hard pressed to self save.

Our struggle is to enter His rest.

evangelist-7 said:

Yes, everything has to do with the attitude of the BAC's heart.
He/she needs to respond acceptably to God's free gift of grace-faith.
A blase acceptance just won't cut it, e.g. the response of many OSASers historically.

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Ephesians 2:8-9 (ESV): "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

People are still saved by faith, not by their works.

evangelist-7 said:

Since there are so many verses explaining why a believer may lose eternal life,
Eph 2:8-9 must be referring to how a believer initially receives eternal life.

IMO, there are 3 levels of eternal life verses:

Level 1 -- Only Believe … example:
---------- “… whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:15)

Level 2 -- Deeper Details … example:
---------- “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
---------- And I give them eternal life” (John 10:27-28)

Level 3 -- Warnings & Threats … example:
------ “Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.”(Rev 2:10)
(James 1:12-15 proves “the crown of life” refers to salvation)

Incredible … the progression of difficulty in gaining eternal life as seen in the 3 levels!

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Incredible, but I must humbly and respectfully disagree. It is no more difficult to keep salvation than it was to attain it. It is, after all, the same faith that does both. I have mentioned Galatians almost ad-nausium on this subject on more than one thread. But for good reason. That letter was written to correct the thinking that after life is received, the requirement is somehow altered or made more difficult.
If that is the case, then eternal life and the covenant in which it resides, would not be based on a promise. But it is based on a promise. This is the only way that God could assure Abraham that his descendants would be innumerable. He is the one who is making it happen, not us.

That is because while we can see all over the place just how bad sin is, we can also see all over the place just how good and merciful God is. Believe it or not.

The so called 'warnings' do not carry with them a threat to take eternal life away from the believer. If they do, then Jesus lied in John 5:24. He specifically said...we who are of faith in Him shall not come under judgement, but have everlasting life, having passed from death to life. As the bible exhorts..."in all your getting, get understanding" God is full of grace and mercy. Amen and blessings in His love.


In response to the above passages...faith comes by hearing, and it perseveres to the end. Ironically, it is the onslaught of these attempts to make us work for our life that call for the perseverance of faith.

williemac: The so called 'warnings' do not carry with them a threat to take eternal life away from the believer. If they do, then Jesus lied in John 5:24. He specifically said...we who are of faith in Him shall not come under judgement, but have everlasting life, having passed from death to life.

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If that's a quote, "judgement", then it's a bad translation.

We won't be condemned if we hear, believe, and do.
Faith without works is dead.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

What does the word, "heareth", entail?

"Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: ...

So, we have Jesus giving us a specific warning that, "heareth" without "doeth" won't get the job done.

"But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great."

In fact, Jesus says it's going to lead to destruction.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Yep, no "doeth", no kingdom of heaven.

"And take heed (pay attention) to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares."
"For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth."
"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

God will decide if we're "worthy" to "stand before the Son of man."

We will be judged for worthiness, but won't come into condemnation if we actually "doeth" what God says to do.

No surprise ... God tells us to do stuff ... better get busy.

What?
Actually believe we can just ignore God?

.

Bad translation? We are taking about the New King James Version, my friend. But I also have a King James Interlinear. Though the word "condemnation" is used, the interlinear shows that the Greek word is the word for "judgment". (re: John 5:24). However, the passage does not say anything about "believe and do".

Believe and do? You quoting James? Faith without works is dead? But did you read the letter? James gave two examples. One of them was a harlot who helped God's messengers escape. She was told that if she did, she would be spared. She believed it. But have you noticed that there is no mention that she changed her ways? What was her "work"? It was simply an indication that she believed God. What we do is a reflection of what we believe.

So it is obvious that you believe you have to act righteously in order to be worthy of salvation. You believe that we are saved by both faith and works of law together. So you are doing what you believe. As with Rahab the Harlot, what she did proved what she believed.

But I am going to suggest that you are promoting the marriage of two systems. In the first system; the covenant of law, it consisted of an agreement by the people to keep the law. However, they could not keep it to its righteous requirement. So God instituted animal sacrifices and washings, etc. both to remind them of their sin and to atone for it. So, as the author of Hebrews said it, the covenant was faulty because the people were faulty. (Heb.8:7,8).

But those sacrifices could not take away sin. They merely covered it. Enter the new system. It turns out that those sacrifices were a mere shadow and type of the ultimate price that Jesus was to pay for the remission of sin. This is more than atonement. It is more than a mere covering. It is the removal.

Make no mistake, because we have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7), we are still faulty. We still fall short of God's glory. But those who have accepted the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins, are declared by God to be "not guilty". If our sins were removed completely we would not be able to sin at all. And even if one manages to behave righteously 24/7, 365...if he has children, they could do exactly the opposite. That is because we, being flesh and blood, still carry the sin of Adam in our genes.

But here is the part of the new system that makes all the difference. The removal of our sin is a done deal in those who have partaken of His flesh and His blood. It is a two step program, ending with the completion at the resurrection. The first is the new birth. This is done by way of accepting it (faith). Will there be proof? Of course. Good works will be difficult to resist, if not impossible. Love will flow out of a person whom it has been first poured into by God. People who are forgiven much, love much. And by the way, this is the "work" that James was talking about. Rather than pull him out of context, read the letter and see for yourself. It is about loving one another.

But if a person is not loving others much, it would indicate that he has not received it. And how do we receive it? By faith. Dead faith is faith that is not alive. It does not receive. That is its role; to receive things offered freely by God. So if they whom James was talking to, were not loving much, maybe they had not received....by faith. The horse comes before the cart. They are not side by side.

There is a cause and effect that happens here. Faith is the cause. Works are the effect. Works are not the cause. Therefore if a person is working for his salvation, this is because he has not yet accepted it by faith. The two are polar opposites in relation to justification. They cannot be married together for justification. They do not have a side by side role in salvation. They do not participate in justification, as your op suggests.

I can assure you that if a Christian has any sin in his life, he is not happy about it. The old man is addicted to sin. But he has been declared dead, crucified with Christ, so that the sin that remains with us, if any, is not counted against us. This is where remission begins. God has promised in the new covenant..."their sins and lawless deeds, I will remember no more". God does not change His mind the minute one accepts Jesus...as you suggest, speaking of 'bad translations' (remission of past sins). God, through animal sacrifices, showed forbearance in anticipation of the sacrifice of His Son, so that anyone in this present time who has faith in Jesus, will be justified.

So if a believer is caught in a sin, our role is to come to his side and assist him in overcoming it. Our role is NOT to hold it against him and rub his face in it. Jesus was asked how many times we should forgive someone. When it was suggested maybe 7 times, He replied 70x7. He wasn't trying to give an exact number. He was expressing a principle of grace. Grace is not a one time event. it is a covenant. Our access into this covenant is through faith and faith alone.

In this covenant, God has agreed that those who believe in Him (in His Son) will not be condemned through judgment. Whatever works of obedience we do, it is because we have life (John 5:24), not because we don't yet have it and are thus working for it.

There is no marriage of the two covenants. It is about faith working through love. (Gal.5:6) One has replaced the other. Obey the truth (Gal.5:7) A little leaven leavens the whole lump (Gal.5:9).

We have an advocate with the Father (1John 2:1) believe it.

williemac said:

Bad translation? We are taking about the New King James Version, my friend. But I also have a King James Interlinear. Though the word "condemnation" is used, the interlinear shows that the Greek word is the word for "judgment". (re: John 5:24). However, the passage does not say anything about "believe and do".

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I am glad that the Christian faith doesn't require English-speaking Christians to use the KJV.

Dodo_David said:

I am glad that the Christian faith doesn't require English-speaking Christians to use the KJV.

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Perhaps not Dodo David... But what about the rest of what he said?

I have to stand with willimac on this one.... When someone quotes a verse that another doesn't like, many times they fire up the riot engine: BAD TRANSLATION, BAD TRANSLATION, OUT OF CONTEXT!!!! BLA BLA BLA!!! Of course, IBEME didn't go that far, and I'm not pinning this on him by any means.... It just seems like when someone doesn't like something in the Bible they come up with many excuses to change it.

So while English speaking Christians aren't required to use the KJV, I would suggest that if they don't stick to one version, they may be lead into error by switching versions often and at their convienence until they find something that fits their beliefs....

Not accusing anyone.... Just making a general observation.

Dodo_David said:

I am glad that the Christian faith doesn't require English-speaking Christians to use the KJV.

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Amen. Although I will concur with the above reply as well. I ran a cell group for a dozen years, and by "coincidence" we had various translations, and we would read a chapter or so by going around the table a few verses at a time. It was interesting to compare notes with each version. In fact, there were times I questioned the differences that I saw. However, the bible is written in such a way that our conclusions on major subjects can be tested with the full scope of scripture concerning those subjects, thus fulfilling Paul's observation that it is profitable for reproof and correction. Blessings, and thanks for your patience. Hopefully we can endeavor to keep our discussions civil on this thread. This is a contentious subject, for sure. But an important one in my opinion. So much, that I consider that an understatement.