Sabbath or no Sabbath?

Gracealone said:

I find the NT gives evidentual support for it's observance, yet what is your position on the issue? (give scriptural support)

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First of all, Bracealone, Welcome to Christianityboard.com! As with all the other nine commandments, Keeping the Sabbath holy is just as valid and effectual today as when it was first inscribed by the finger of God on Moses stone tablets. I believe the Ten Commandments were written in order of their importance. The first four outline our obligations to our Creator while the next six pertain to how we are properly to treat our fellow man. Remembering to keep the Sabbath holy ranks at number four on that divine list of commandments.

The scriptural burden of proof should rightfully be upon those that support the nullification of the Sabbath, not those that continue to honor and follow God's Law. Jesus faithfully observed the Sabbath during His entire earthly lifetime and certainly never gave any indication that one of the Ten Commandments was to be dissolved upon his resurrection from the dead and subsequent ascension into the heavens.

Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Welcome Gracealone

The Sabbath was only ever given to the Jews.

It was part of the Sinai Covenant.

Christians are under the New Covenant not the SInai Covenant.

God bless

BTW - Jesus observed the Sabbath because he was a Jew

Mungo said:

The Sabbath was only ever given to the Jews.

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This is false for a number of reasons. Firstly, the Sabbath was given to Israelites, not just Jews. Secondly, anyone in an Israelite family (servants, slaves, spouse adopted children etc.) were also subject to the Sabbath commandment.

Mungo said:

It was part of the Sinai Covenant.

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Yes, the Sabbath was an integral part of the Sinai Covenant but it was first instituted on the Seventh Day of Creation (thousands of years before Sinai Covenant). The stone tablets given to Moses by God Almighty was a reminder for the faithful to continue to "remember" the Sabbath.

Mungo said:

Christians are under the New Covenant not the Sinai Covenant.

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As none of the other nine commandments are ever seriously debated by theologians as being rescinded, there is no plausible justification for removing the obligation to obey the Fourth Commandment. You also have yet to provide ANY scriptural evidence to support your claims. You are merely blindly following the dictates of the Roman Catholic Church instead of scripturally investigating this matter for yourself.

Mungo said:

BTW - Jesus observed the Sabbath because he was a Jew

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Jesus was born as an Israelite of the tribe of Judah, however, Jesus brazenly refused to comply with several of the statutes of Talmudic Judaism calling them 'the commandments of men'. (Matt 15:9)

I choose to follow Christ's example rather than church tradition or papal decrees.

I'm busy and don't have time to elaborate right now.... But have a look at Matthew 12:1-13. Comments?

Gracealone said:

I find the NT gives evidentual support for it's observance, yet what is your position on the issue? (give scriptural support)

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Let me guess what is going on here
1. You make one post , you are new here
2. You ask a short question , in this case about the sabbath
3. We give our answers
4. You disagree with our answers
5. Then you proceed to copy and paste your endless arguments
6. That is what I think .

Because:
7. You have been booted from all the other forums
8. Or you did not win your arguments elsewhere
9. Or you are looking for fresh meat to butcher
10. That is what I think

Now I will answer your sabbath question
1. I observe Saturday Sabbath
2. And I observe Sunday Sabbath
3. I love the two days of rest
4. And it saves a lot of arguing with people like you.
5. Notice I didn't quote one single scripture
6. Because it is not necessary

I look forward to your response
And to see if my prediction is correct
I can smell you guys a mile away

Thank you
Best wishes
Arnie M.

James Forthwright said:

This is false for a number of reasons. Firstly, the Sabbath was given to Israelites, not just Jews. Secondly, anyone in an Israelite family (servants, slaves, spouse adopted children etc.) were also subject to the Sabbath commandment.


Yes, the Sabbath was an integral part of the Sinai Covenant but it was first instituted on the Seventh Day of Creation (thousands of years before Sinai Covenant). The stone tablets given to Moses by God Almighty was a reminder for the faithful to continue to "remember" the Sabbath.



As none of the other nine commandments are ever seriously debated by theologians as being rescinded, there is no plausible justification for removing the obligation to obey the Fourth Commandment. You also have yet to provide ANY scriptural evidence to support your claims. You are merely blindly following the dictates of the Roman Catholic Church instead of scripturally investigating this matter for yourself.


Jesus was born as an Israelite of the tribe of Judah, however, Jesus brazenly refused to comply with several of the statutes of Talmudic Judaism calling them 'the commandments of men'. (Matt 15:9)

I choose to follow Christ's example rather than church tradition or papal decrees.

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Uh, Mungo did not mention the Roman Catholic Church in his post. I know plenty of Protestant Christians who have the same opinion about the Sabbath that Mungo has.

Arnie Manitoba said:

Let me guess what is going on here
1. You make one post , you are new here
2. You ask a short question , in this case about the sabbath
3. We give our answers
4. You disagree with our answers
5. Then you proceed to copy and paste your endless arguments
6. That is what I think .

Because:
7. You have been booted from all the other forums
8. Or you did not win your arguments elsewhere
9. Or you are looking for fresh meat to butcher
10. That is what I think

Now I will answer your sabbath question
1. I observe Saturday Sabbath
2. And I observe Sunday Sabbath
3. I love the two days of rest
4. And it saves a lot of arguing with people like you.
5. Notice I didn't quote one single scripture
6. Because it is not necessary

I look forward to your response
And to see if my prediction is correct
I can smell you guys a mile away

Thank you
Best wishes
Arnie M.

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Wow, was it necessary to extrapolate all of that from a simple opening post?

Gracealone said:

I find the NT gives evidentual support for it's observance, yet what is your position on the issue? (give scriptural support)

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Gracealone, welcome to the website. How about if you elaborate what you believe about Sabbaths.

Dodo_David said:

Wow, was it necessary to extrapolate all of that from a simple opening post?

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.
Yes , and I expect I am correct.
Wait and see.

By the way , my comments were to Gracealone , not you

But then again , you may be one and the same.

Arnie Manitoba said:

.
Yes , and I expect I am correct.
Wait and see.

By the way , my comments were to Gracealone , not you

But then again , you may be one and the same.

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Being that this forum is a public forum, anyone here can reply to any other person's posts.

Gracealone said:

I find the NT gives evidentual support for it's observance, yet what is your position on the issue? (give scriptural support)

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I believe all ten of the commandments are still in effect. I also believe that the Sabbath commandment requires us to set apart every seventh day for God but it does not specify the starting point. For that we are to follow God's lead.. God showed the Jews which day he wanted them to keep by withholding the manna on that day so they would not be out working to collect it. I believe that Jesus' Resurrection on Sunday, his appearing to his disciples on consecutive Sundays and the coming of the Holy Spirit on Sunday, is a good indication that this is the day he now wants us to set aside for Him.

JF,

What was the difference between ‘Jews’ and the ‘Israelites’ at the time of the Sinai Covenant?

The Ten Commandments, along with all the other Commandments given to the Israelites (OK JF?) at Sinai were the laws of the Sinai Covenant. They were never given to the gentiles. It is true that any gentiles living with the Israelites were obliged to obey them just as any foreigners in a country have to live under the laws of the society they are in.

Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph 2:12)

There is no evidence whatsoever that anyone was commanded to, or did, keep a Sabbath before the Sinai Covenant. The first mention of the Sabbath is in Ex 16:23-26. People did not understand and still went out to gather Manna on the Sabbath and had to be told off and reminded about it before they got it.(vs 27-30)

Then, after that, God put the command into the Ten Commandments he gave them. The Sabbath was something special for the Israelites as part of God's Covenant with them.

That Covenant was legally revoked and fulfilled by Jesus who gave us a New Covenant that was for all - Jews and Gentiles. There is no Sabbath keeping command in the New Covenant.

What was the Sinai Covenant for?
Paul tells us it was a disciplinarian
Before faith came, we [Jews] were held in custody under law, confined for the faith that was to be revealed. Consequently, the law was our disciplinarian for Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a disciplinarian. (Gal 3:23-25).

The Law was to teach them about sin.
What then can we say? That the law is sin? Of course not! Yet I did not know sin except through the law, and I did not know what it is to covet except that the law said, “You shall not covet.” (Rom 7: 7)

God brought the Israelites out to Egypt but he had to make them into a holy nation, set apart. In Egypt there were many gods, the sun and animals. They were going to a land also with many gods – vegetation gods. They had to be reminded constantly that there was only one God who made heaven and earth and all it contained – sun and moon, animals, vegetation. I think that is one reason for the emphasis on remembering the beginning of Genesis. In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. (Ex 20:11).


The Sabbath was also a sign, a reminder of their Covenant (ex 24:7-9 & Ex 31 12-13, 16-17).

Most of the Ten Commandments were moral laws and as such we expect to find them before the Sinai Covenant and certainly murder (for example) was known to be wrong from the very beginning (Cain & Abel). We find it in the Covenant with Noah (Gen 9:6) and of course in the New Covenant (e.g. 1Jn 3:15).

The sabbath was instituted before the Law, and while we can see the Lord ceased from his labor on the 7th day, perhaps a better scripture to use would be Exo 16:23. First, remember this was before the Law was given (chapter 20). Here, Moses tells them to store manna and cook it before the sabbath. He explains that "tomorrow is the rest of the holy sabbath." Now, some listened and some didn't, but that is irregardless of the fact that it was still instituted by God and at this point, announced by Moses. In fact, God got upset at it when they did. God even said, "How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and laws"? (v 28) Clearly, the sabbath was instituted before the Law of Moses.

When we look at the reasons why people were to keep the sabbath we see it was a day of rest. No one was to do work, cook nor even travel outside "his place". (v 29). That included servants, beasts of burden and strangers in the land. In fact, it was punishable by death (Exo 31:14).

Another reason was that it was a perpetual covenent between the Lord and his people (Exo 31:16-17), so while it was a much needed day of rest, it was also a spiritual bond.

Now, when we go to the NT, we see Jesus allowing his disciples to pick corn on the Sabbath. Of course, the Pharasees took the occasion to find fault because Jesus was allowing them to do what God told them not to do in Exo 16... Technically speaking (by which I mean strictly going by what the Word says) they had a point! Jesus of course handled them and put them in their place, but if we are supposed to keep the sabbath, going through the field and picking corn was not keeping the Sabbath.

By the way, if you want to keep the sabbath, should we keep all of it? Would posting on the internet be against it? Of course, the Bible doesn't address internet use, but it does say don't do any work... Anyone cooking a meal on the Sabbath day? I went to Church on the Sabbath day and travelled.... Isn't that breaking it? Furthermore, what about the part of putting someone to death for disobeying? If we are going to keep it, we should keep it all, right?

I want to cover two more verses:

Gal 4:10-11 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I'm afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain.

Realizing the the epistle was a scolding letter to a gentile CHurch for allowing them to be persuaded by those who wanted to mix the Law with grace, this verse can only be talking about demanding people following holy days. In other words, the big issue was circumcision, but also the Judizers wanted them to keep the sabbath and other traditional religious days. Paul said no to that... He wasn't against them doing it if they were led in their heart to do so (remember that Paul on a couple of occasions wanted to return to Jerusalem for the passover, but didn't make it a commandment) but he was against them being forced to keep it.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days, which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.

So, first off, yes the sabbath IS a shadow of things to come! Second, even though the sabbath was before the Law, it isn't something we must do under grace. Gal 4 and especially Col 2 state that.

Finally, do I "think" we should? Sure... It is always a good idea to set forth a day of rest and reflection about God (the latter being something we should do everyday). But no, it's not something we must do under the new covenant.

Gracealone said:

I find the NT gives evidentual support for it's observance, yet what is your position on the issue? (give scriptural support)

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ps: .... good points in your post #6 .... I agree .... but see nothing new .... dont we already know God rested on the 7th day and then set aside the 7th day for us to rest too ??

Never mind that ..... mostly I wanted to comment about something a good Jewish friend said to me .... I was chiding him on his strict observance of the Sabbath ..... he wouldn't even carry a package in his hands on the Sabbath because it could be seen as "work"

We get along well and he knew I was just teasing him about it ...... but then he stopped in mid sentence .... looked at me strange ... and asked .... do you think we do that as some sort of legalism ????

I said YES .... that is my whole point .... you are too caught up in the legalism .... rather than the intent ... you are taking it too seriously

His reply turned me completely around .... he said they come up with all those tiny little rules and regulations as fun .... they are not being serious or legalistic at all ..... with tongue in cheek , and a smile in their minds , they are always trying to invent (fun) ways to do less and less ..... he said they compete to see who can be the "ultimate lazy Jew" one day a week ... ha ha !!!!!

I think he completely understands the Sabbath .... probably better than most of us.... I learned something from that .

No scriptures were harmed in making this post


.

Gracealone said:

I find the NT gives evidentual support for it's observance, yet what is your position on the issue? (give scriptural support)

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Like all ordinances, there is a root meaning beyond the meaning we know now. The Sabbath is the day (1000) of rest during the Day of the Lord. It is this rest we are command to observe. As for the seven days of the week, Saturday is a day made from man to rest. We are not made for the day, but the day for us.

[SIZE=.75em]Mark 2:23 [/SIZE]One Sabbath Jesus was going through the grainfields, and as his disciples walked along, they began to pick some heads of grain. [SIZE=.75em]24 [/SIZE]The Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?”
[SIZE=.75em]25 [/SIZE]He answered, “Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? [SIZE=.75em]26 [/SIZE]In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions.”
[SIZE=.75em]27 [/SIZE]Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. [SIZE=.75em]28 [/SIZE]So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Ultimately, the day of rest mirrors the Genesis 2 rest of God after the first week. We can only enter in if we escape the coming wrath. We are remade as the new man after this day of rest.

I believe we keep the Sabbath, when we keep Christ first in our lives. Christ is our Sabbath he is our eternal rest

Col 2:16
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or in regard to a religious festival, a new moon celebration or a Sabbath day

Here Paul lists all the Sabbaths. Religious festivals are annual Sabbaths, like Pass over. a new moon celebration is a monthly Sabbath and the Sabbath day is the weekly Sabbath. He lists all Sabbaths and then tells us not to let any one judge you on what you eat and drink and on the Sabbath day

A few verses back, Paul tells us that in Christ we are also circumcised. Circumcision is also an eternal command or law, but in Christ that Law is fulfilled as with the Sabbath day. When we are in Christ we fulfill all the law

Colossians 2:16-17 (ESV): "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."

Enough said.

Dodo_David said:

Colossians 2:16-17 (ESV): "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."

Enough said.

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If you go back to my comments about the Sabbath being the Day of the Lord, or last 1000 years of the 7,000 year week, the shadow of things to come become clear. Thank you for that verse. I should have placed it in my post as well.

James Forthwright said:

As none of the other nine commandments are ever seriously debated by theologians as being rescinded, there is no plausible justification for removing the obligation to obey the Fourth Commandment. You also have yet to provide ANY scriptural evidence to support your claims. You are merely blindly following the dictates of the Roman Catholic Church instead of scripturally investigating this matter for yourself.

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The other nine commmadments are not debated because they are reinforced in the NT. Not in the same terms as the 10 commandments, but in this passage:

And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:28-31, ESV)

As one theologian pointed out...pretty much all of the 10 (not the Sabbath rule) is covered in these two commandments. If we love God with all our strength, soul and mind, we will not woship other gods ,we will not create idols and we will not take his name in vain. The other commandments are observed if we truly love our neighbours....there will be no coveting, no stealing, no disrespecting our parents...and so on.

Which brings us to the Commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Does the NT have anything to say about it? It does.

And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.” (Mark 2:27-28, ESV)

Jesus lays down some foundation for us. Not only does he continually heal people on the Sabbath...horrifying the Pharisees, but he says the above.
The Sabbath was God's good provision for man...so that he could rest and spend a day in contemplation and fellowship. It was not made for us to conform to...with rigours and rules...it was so we could use that tim wisely....helping others as Jesus did, and for spending that time coming closer to God...be that through silent contemplation or through fellowshipping with his people....the bible is clear that we need to all of these things....'Sabbath' is God's provision for us to achieve them.

Paul also comments on the issue:

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— (Colossians 2:16-20, ESV)

That spells it out fairly clearly I think.

Gracealone said:

I find the NT gives evidentual support for it's observance, yet what is your position on the issue? (give scriptural support)

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My understanding is that for Christians Jesus is our Sabbath, our rest, as Jesus himself promised: "Come unto me ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn of me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest unto you soul."

Paul also expressed this great truth in his letter to the Hebrew Christians, that God limited a certain day for rest which day is "today, if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts" as that generation did who came out of Egypt, but because of unbelief they fell in the wilderness and did not enter God's rest.

Paul goes on to caution us: "Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief."

Those who rest in Christ are the true sabbath keepers.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer