“THIS” gospel of the kingdom

veteran said:

I think you're confused...

Matt 24:14
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
(KJV)

Rom 1:1-2
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which He had promised afore by His prophets in the holy scriptures,)
(KJV)

There are many different label pointers to God's Salvation Plan through His Son signifying what all it contains. Just because the word 'kingdom' does not always appear in many of those phrases does not mean it is a different Gospel of Jesus Christ, for there is only ONE Gospel of Jesus Christ, not two, or three, or more.
2 Tim 4:1
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom;
(KJV)

So Christ's Kingdom will come at His appearing, i.e., His second coming? Yes! That's to show His Kingdom is still... expecting today, and per the Acts 28 Scripture it is the SAME Gospel Apostle Paul preached to the Jews in Rome and then said it would be preached to the Gentiles and they would hear it.

Acts 28:30-31
30 And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
(KJV)

Is Jesus Christ always included with that preaching of "the kingdom of God"? Yes, of course, for His Kingdom cannot be separated from Him. Afterall, the word 'kingdom' comes from two words, 'king' and 'dominion', can't have one without the other.

Mark 16:15-16
15 And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(KJV)

Matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
(KJV)

Click to expand...

The Gospel of the Kingdom presents Jesus Christ as the King coming. It is specifically directed to Israel as Israel was and is in a state of judgement from God. It requires repentance on her part. That Kingdom was and will be on the earth with Israel as the leading nation. Because during the Tribulation period, Israel will turn back to God and recieve Christ as Her King and Messiah.

We who are the Church do not bring the Gospel of the Kingdom. Though we teach about the Kingdom of course. But our Gospel, the good news is not the Gospel of the Kingdom. The good news is 'believe on Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved'. Neither John the Baptist, nor Jesus, nor the disciples preached this at the begining of Christ's ministry. They preached 'repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand'.

See the difference?

Quantrill

Shalom, Quantrill.

Quantrill said:

The Gospel of the Kingdom presents Jesus Christ as the King coming. It is specifically directed to Israel as Israel was and is in a state of judgement from God. It requires repentance on her part. That Kingdom was and will be on the earth with Israel as the leading nation. Because during the Tribulation period, Israel will turn back to God and recieve Christ as Her King and Messiah.

We who are the Church do not bring the Gospel of the Kingdom. Though we teach about the Kingdom of course. But our Gospel, the good news is not the Gospel of the Kingdom. The good news is 'believe on Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved'. Neither John the Baptist, nor Jesus, nor the disciples preached this at the begining of Christ's ministry. They preached 'repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand'.

See the difference?

Quantrill

Click to expand...

I am glad that you recognize that there is a difference between the Gospel of the Kingdom and "our (the Church's) Gospel, the good news," that you say is "believe on Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved," but there's another step you should take, namely, that what we call "our Gospel, the good news," that says, "believe on Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved," is not what Peter or Paul taught was the Gospel! That may SOUND radical; so, please let me try to explain:

As, I already said in post #4 above, "This (the gospel of the Kingdom) is NOT the 'gospel' that is taught and believed today! Most think the definition of the 'gospel' is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
KJV

"That's an error, because this passage is NOT a definition! Verses 3 and 4 are EXTENSIONS to the gospel (i.e., the gospel of the Kingdom)! The key is in the title 'Christ,' the Anglicized form of the Greek 'Christos,' which in turn is the translation of the Hebrew title 'Mashiach' or as it has been transliterated into English through Greek and Latin, 'Messiah.' This is a Hebrew word meaning 'Anointed One,' but it refers specifically in prophetic passages to the ONE who was anointed to be KING as God's Representative!"

That was the "stumbling block for the Jews!" "The Messiah (who would rule Isra'el and the world) DIED?!" "He was BURIED?!" "He ... WHAT? ... ROSE AGAIN the third day?!"

Romans 9:31-33
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
KJV

1 Peter 2:6-8
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion (Zion or Tsiown) a chief corner stone (head capstone of the angle), elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
KJV

That which people teach today as the "Gospel" is NOT ENOUGH! It falls short of the true Gospel behind the actual message of good news! "THY GOD REIGNETH!!!" (Isaiah 52:7)

Now, review what Paul said to the Gentiles of the gathering at Ephesus (the OLD condition will be in blue; the NEW will be in red):

Ephesians 2:1-22
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation (lifestyle) in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ (THE MESSIAH), (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places (en tois epouraniois) in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`):
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (through the Messiah Yeshua`).
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus (in the Messiah Yeshua`) unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth (citizenship) of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh (close) by the blood of Christ (the blood of the Messiah).
14 For he (the Messiah) is our peace, who hath made both (Circumcision and Uncircumcision) one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain (of two) one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both (Circumcision and Uncircumcision) unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both (Circumcision and Uncircumcision) have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye (Gentiles) are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints (the Hebrews), and of the household (family) of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone (head capstone of the angle);
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

Any of us who USED TO BE GENTILES, who have been made nigh by the blood of the Messiah, are BROUGHT INTO the citizenship of Isra'el as fellow citizens with the Hebrews! Any of us who USED TO BE GENTILES have become part of the mishpachah (family) of God! Therefore, we can find ourselves in the SAME SCRIPTURES in which they are promised the Kingdom of God!

Now, I know that this is a bit of a twist on what we've been taught all these years, but this is what is explicitly stated in these passages.

Retrobyter

Yes, the Gospel of the Kingdom is not the Gospel of Grace.

But the Gospel of Grace, belief on Jesus Christ who died, was buried, and rose the third day, and sits at the right hand of God, is all sufficient for us. It is enough. So, I do reject your statement that it is not enough.

We who are Christians are not made Israelites because we place faith in Christ. We become part of the family of God. We come nigh to Israel but we do not become Israel. We are the Body and Bride of Christ.

Quantrill

Shabbat shalom, Quantrill.

Quantrill said:

Retrobyter

Yes, the Gospel of the Kingdom is not the Gospel of Grace.

But the Gospel of Grace, belief on Jesus Christ who died, was buried, and rose the third day, and sits at the right hand of God, is all sufficient for us. It is enough. So, I do reject your statement that it is not enough.

We who are Christians are not made Israelites because we place faith in Christ. We become part of the family of God. We come nigh to Israel but we do not become Israel. We are the Body and Bride of Christ.

Quantrill

Click to expand...

So, you are willing and content, then, to ignore what is said in Ephesians 2 and in Romans 11 and think yourself foreign to the citizenship of Isra'el?

If I may encourage you, please read the passages again. I'm here listing a couple of easy-to-read versions that might give you a better perspective of what you are reading:

Ephesians 2:1-22
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
NIV

Ephesians 2:1-22
1 You used to be dead because of your sins and acts of disobedience. 2 You walked in the ways of the ‘olam hazeh and obeyed the Ruler of the Powers of the Air, who is still at work among the disobedient. 3 Indeed, we all once lived this way — we followed the passions of our old nature and obeyed the wishes of our old nature and our own thoughts. In our natural condition we were headed for God’s wrath, just like everyone else.
4 But God is so rich in mercy and loves us with such intense love 5 that, even when we were dead because of our acts of disobedience, he brought us to life along with the Messiah — it is by grace that you have been delivered. 6 That is, God raised us up with the Messiah Yeshua and seated us with him in heaven, 7 in order to exhibit in the ages to come how infinitely rich is his grace, how great is his kindness toward us who are united with the Messiah Yeshua. 8 For you have been delivered by grace through trusting, and even this is not your accomplishment but God’s gift. 9 You were not delivered by your own actions; therefore no one should boast. 10 For we are of God’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do.
11 Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth — called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised — 12 at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Isra’el. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God’s promise. You were in this world without hope and without God.
13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. 14 For he himself is our shalom — he has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us 15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, 16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity.
17 Also, when he came, he announced as Good News shalom to you far off and shalom to those nearby, 18 news that through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then, you are no longer foreigners and strangers. On the contrary, you are fellow-citizens with God’s people and members of God’s family. 20 You have been built on the foundation of the emissaries and the prophets, with the cornerstone being Yeshua the Messiah himself. 21 In union with him the whole building is held together, and it is growing into a holy temple in union with the Lord. 22 Yes, in union with him, you yourselves are being built together into a spiritual dwelling-place for God!
CJB

Romans 11:11-32
11 Again I ask: Did they (the Israelites) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead (i.e., RESURRECTION)? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
NIV

Romans 11:11-32
11 “In that case, I say, isn’t it that they (the children of Isra'el) have stumbled with the result that they have permanently fallen away?” Heaven forbid! Quite the contrary, it is by means of their stumbling that the deliverance has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them (the children of Isra'el) to jealousy. 12 Moreover, if their stumbling is bringing riches to the world — that is, if Isra’el’s being placed temporarily in a condition less favored than that of the Gentiles is bringing riches to the latter — how much greater riches will Isra’el in its fullness bring them!
13 However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work 14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them! 15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead (i.e., RESURRECTION)!
16 Now if the hallah (egg bread) offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole loaf. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree, 18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you. 19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won’t spare you! 22 So take a good look at God’s kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God’s kindness toward you — provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off! 23 Moreover, the others, if they do not persist in their lack of trust, will be grafted in; because God is able to graft them back in. 24 For if you were cut out of what is by nature a wild olive tree and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree!
25 For, brothers, I want you to understand this truth which God formerly concealed but has now revealed, so that you won’t imagine you know more than you actually do. It is that stoniness, to a degree, has come upon Isra’el, until the Gentile world enters in its fullness; 26 and that it is in this way that all Isra’el will be saved. As the Tanakh (the OT) says,

“Out of Tziyon will come the Redeemer;
he will turn away ungodliness from Ya‘akov
27 and this will be my covenant with them, . . .
when I take away their sins.”

28 With respect to the Good News they are hated for your sake. But with respect to being chosen they are loved for the Patriarchs’ sake, 29 for God’s free gifts and his calling are irrevocable. 30 Just as you yourselves were disobedient to God before but have received mercy now because of Isra’el’s disobedience; 31 so also Isra’el has been disobedient now, so that by your showing them the same mercy that God has shown you, they too may now receive God’s mercy. 32 For God has shut up all mankind together in disobedience, in order that he might show mercy to all.
CJB

We ARE part of the commonwealth of Isra'el - the citizenship of Isra'el - THROUGH THE MESSIAH! Whether you want to think of it as being adopted into His family or as being born again through His blood and His bloodline, we have become PART of the tribe of Y'hudah (Judah) IN HIM! If the Gentiles were "far away" and the children of Isra'el were "near," then if we who are Gentiles by birth and were once "far away" have been "brought near," what does that suggest?!

I'm trying to make this clear for you personally and for all others who might be reading along: We who once were Gentiles are brought into the citizenship of Isra'el - not the Isra'el of the Jews who rejected the Messiah, but the Isra'el that was ruled by David and Solomon and will be ruled by Yeshua` when He returns! If and when you can accept that seldom-taught information, it will make a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE for your perspective on the rest of Scripture!

Retrobyter

No I don't ignore Eph.2 or Rom.11. But that does not say the Christian is a citizen of Israel.

We as Christians are fellow citizens with the saints and household of God. Eph. 2:19 We do not obtain citizenship with Israel. We obtain citizenship with the household of God of which Israel is part of. Thu we are near Israel now where as before we were faraway. 2:12-13

The children of Israel werre not 'near' as you say. They were there. We as Gentiles were far away. But are brought near to Israel when we believe.

I see nothing in Rom. 11 to indicate we as Christians are citizens of Israel. I see only how that Gentiles were brought into the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant just as Israel was. See. Gal. 3:6-16.

Quantrill

Guy Smith

I agree that salvation of God is the same for all believers.

But there are different bodies of believers such as the Church and Israel. And they are not mixed.

What you see in Romans 9-11 is God explaining that He is not finished with Israel and that one day 'all Israel will be saved'. That doesn't mean the Church is Israel.

So, when I become a Christian, placing faith in Christ in our time, I don't become an Israelite. I become part of the family of God, the Church, the Body and Bride of Christ.

Quantrill

That doesn't mean the Church is Israel.

Click to expand...

Unless the Church is Israel, scripture makes no sense.

The divisions which have been promoted by unbelieving 'Jews' (and Israelites) are the root cause of the confusion amongst Christians on this point.

dragonfly said:

Unless the Church is Israel, scripture makes no sense.

The divisions which have been promoted by unbelieving 'Jews' (and Israelites) are the root cause of the confusion amongst Christians on this point.

Click to expand...

Why do you say that?

Quantrill

Why do you say that?

Click to expand...

Because that's what I've come to understand after reading discussions like these for a decade.

In a nutshell, Israel means 'God prevails'. Israel is a people not a place. The 'Israel' that God is going to bless through the new covenant, which is 100% connected to the old covenant at the cross (See Romans 4:16, Galatians 3:8, 9 and 28, 29, and Hebrews 9:15) is the Israel of which Paul writes to the Ephesians in chapter 2 of that letter. Only those who have made an idol of the land - which God said should never be sold, and commented in Exodus 19:5 that the whole earth is His - have been willing to trade their souls in attempting to 'gain the whole world' (Mark 8:36) as we are currently observing being played out is slo-mo as the days go by. The passage in Exodus is quoted by Peter who is speaking to Christians. He places them firmly in the frame as the 'chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.' Note well, that 'the people who were not a people' does not refer to 'the nations'. It refers to Israel.

I rest my case.

Ephesians 2:13-22 (ESV):

13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Click to expand...

Now, I rest my case. B)

dragonfly said:

Because that's what I've come to understand after reading discussions like these for a decade.

In a nutshell, Israel means 'God prevails'. Israel is a people not a place. The 'Israel' that God is going to bless through the new covenant, which is 100% connected to the old covenant at the cross (See Romans 4:16, Galatians 3:8, 9 and 28, 29, and Hebrews 9:15) is the Israel of which Paul writes to the Ephesians in chapter 2 of that letter. Only those who have made an idol of the land - which God said should never be sold, and commented in Exodus 19:5 that the whole earth is His - have been willing to trade their souls in attempting to 'gain the whole world' (Mark 8:36) as we are currently observing being played out is slo-mo as the days go by. The passage in Exodus is quoted by Peter who is speaking to Christians. He places them firmly in the frame as the 'chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.' Note well, that 'the people who were not a people' does not refer to 'the nations'. It refers to Israel.

I rest my case.

Click to expand...

Israel is a place and a people. If Israel is not a place and people then the Abrahamic Covenant is a lie.

Gen.12:1-3 " Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindreds, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee And I will make of thee, a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing."

Gen. 12:7 " And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land:...."

I don't see any of the verses you give proving your point that the Church is Israel. That the Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile, yes. That the Church is a nation of priests, yes. That the Church is Israel, no.

Is that your whole case?

Quantrill

Dodo_David said:

Ephesians 2:13-22 (ESV):


Now, I rest my case. B)

Click to expand...

You haven't given any case to rest on. That the Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile does not mean the Church is Israel.

Quantrill

Quantrill said:

Israel is a place and a people. If Israel is not a place and people then the Abrahamic Covenant is a lie.

Gen.12:1-3 " Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindreds, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee And I will make of thee, a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing."

Gen. 12:7 " And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land:...."

I don't see any of the verses you give proving your point that the Church is Israel. That the Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile, yes. That the Church is a nation of priests, yes. That the Church is Israel, no.

Is that your whole case?

Quantrill


You haven't given any case to rest on. That the Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile does not mean the Church is Israel.

Quantrill

Click to expand...

AMEN !!!

Christians became sidetracked for thousands of years thinking they were Israel after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD

Since 1948 we have no excuse to carry on that error.

Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:

Because that's what I've come to understand after reading discussions like these for a decade.

In a nutshell, Israel means 'God prevails'. Israel is a people not a place. The 'Israel' that God is going to bless through the new covenant, which is 100% connected to the old covenant at the cross (See Romans 4:16, Galatians 3:8, 9 and 28, 29, and Hebrews 9:15) is the Israel of which Paul writes to the Ephesians in chapter 2 of that letter. Only those who have made an idol of the land - which God said should never be sold, and commented in Exodus 19:5 that the whole earth is His - have been willing to trade their souls in attempting to 'gain the whole world' (Mark 8:36) as we are currently observing being played out is slo-mo as the days go by. The passage in Exodus is quoted by Peter who is speaking to Christians. He places them firmly in the frame as the 'chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.' Note well, that 'the people who were not a people' does not refer to 'the nations'. It refers to Israel.

I rest my case.

Click to expand...

Then you have rested your case on a poor foundation. Until you understand what the Kingdom is, you will continue to make these mistakes. The Kingdom over which the Messiah Yeshua` will rule is the SAME KINGDOM over which the Messiah David (His ancestor) ruled! Chew on that for a while.

First, "Isra'el" does NOT mean "God prevails." You've misread the name:
Genesis 32:23-33
23(22) He got up that night, took his two wives, his two slave-girls, and his eleven children, and forded the Yabok. 24(23) He took them and sent them across the stream, then sent his possessions across; 25(24) and Ya‘akov was left alone. Then some man wrestled with him until daybreak. 26(25) When he saw that he did not defeat Ya‘akov, he struck Ya‘akov’s hip socket, so that his hip was dislocated while wrestling with him. 27(26) The man said, “Let me go, because it’s daybreak.” But Ya‘akov replied, “I won’t let you go unless you bless me.” 28(27) The man asked, “What is your name?” and he answered, “Ya‘akov.” 29(28) Then the man said, “From now on, you will no longer be called Ya‘akov, but Isra’el; because you have shown your strength to both God and men and have prevailed.” 30(29) Ya‘akov asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he answered, “Why are you asking about my name?” and blessed him there.
(iii) 31(30) Ya‘akov called the place P’ni-El [face of God], “Because I have seen God face to face, yet my life is spared.” 32(31) As the sun rose upon him he went on past P’ni-El, limping at the hip. 33(32) This is why, to this day, the people of Isra’el do not eat the thigh muscle that passes along the hip socket — because the man struck Ya‘akov’s hip at its socket.
CJB

Here's the Hebrew of verse 29 (verse 28 in the TANAKH, the Hebrew Bible):

28 Vayo’mer, “Lo Ya`aqov yee’aameer `owd shimkhaa kiy im Yisraa’eel kiy saariytaa `im Elohiym v`im anaashiym vatuwkhaal.”

28 Vayo’mer, = 28 And-he-said,
“Lo = “No
Ya`aqov = Jacob
`owd = more
shimkhaa = thy-name
kiy = for
im = look! (OT:518)
Yisraa’eel = Isra’el
kiy = for
saariytaa = you-(singular)-have-prevailed-as-a-prince
`im = with (OT:5973)
Elohiym = God
v`im = and-with (OT:5973)
anaashiym (plural of iysh) = men
vatuwkhaal = and-you-(singular)-have-prevailed/won.

As additional information, I've included these definitions:

OT:518 'im (eem, spelled alef-mem); a primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo!; interrog., whether?; or conditional, if, although; also Oh that!, when; hence, as a negative, not:
KJV - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), but, either, except, more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, surely (no more, none, not), though, of a truth, unless, verily, when, whereas, whether, while, yet.


OT:5973 `im (eem, spelled ayin-mem); from OT:6004; adverb or preposition, with (i.e. in conjunction with), in varied applications; specifically, equally with; often with prepositional prefix (and then usually unrepresented in English):
KJV - accompanying, against, and, as (X long as), before, beside, by (reason of), for all, from (among, between), in, like, more than, of, (un-) to, with (-al).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Click to expand...

The key word is the Hebrew word "SAR!" It means "PRINCE!" Yeshua` is prophesied to be "Sar Shalom" the "Prince of Peace." The word is found in both Yisraa'eel and in saariytaa! It literally means "he is a prince with God."

Second, Isra'el is NOT just the people, which are primarily the CHILDREN OF ISRA'EL, by the way! It is also the LAND! It is technically ANYTHING or ANYONE who belongs to the PERSON Yisraa'eel!

Ezekiel 36:1-38
1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
2 Thus saith the LORD God; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the LORD God; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD God; Thus saith the LORD God to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
5 Therefore thus saith the LORD God; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
7 Therefore thus saith the LORD God; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
13 Thus saith the LORD God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations;
14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the LORD God.
15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the LORD God.
16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the LORD God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the LORD God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the LORD God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33 Thus saith the LORD God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
37 Thus saith the LORD God; I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

Gentiles have been ADDED to their numbers, but they have NEVER replaced them!

*****

Shalom, Quantrill.

Quantrill said:

Retrobyter

No I don't ignore Eph.2 or Rom.11. But that does not say the Christian is a citizen of Israel.

We as Christians are fellow citizens with the saints and household of God. Eph. 2:19 We do not obtain citizenship with Israel. We obtain citizenship with the household of God of which Israel is part of. Thu we are near Israel now where as before we were faraway. 2:12-13

The children of Israel were not 'near' as you say. They were there. We as Gentiles were far away. But are brought near to Israel when we believe.

I see nothing in Rom. 11 to indicate we as Christians are citizens of Israel. I see only how that Gentiles were brought into the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant just as Israel was. See. Gal. 3:6-16.

Quantrill

Click to expand...

I know it may take some time to accept, but at least you've heard it once here. Yes, you DO obtain citizenship with Isra'el! Not with the state of Isra'el as it stands today, but the Isra'el in which Yeshua` will reign as King!

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Did you think I made this claim lightly?!

It wasn't just the Avrahamic Covenant into which Gentiles were brought; they were also brought in under the DAVIDIC Covenant! That is, under the Davidic Covenant - the Covenant that God made with David to always have one of his sons rule on the throne of Isra'el (as long as such "throne" exists) and to make one of his heirs, Yeshua`, that King forever, they were also made kings and priests - LITERALLY - under Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym, Jesus the Messiah of God! And, if that King will never die (again), then who are HIS heirs? They are ALSO descendants of David who was a Jew, that is, a descendant of Y'hudah, and they are also heirs WITH the Messiah of His Kingship! Over whom will they reign? Well, over whom will the Messiah reign? Step by step, individual by individual, nation by nation, Yeshua` will subdue his enemies throughout the Millennium until He is a World Emperor - King of kings and Master of masters! Once a nation has been subdued, who do you think He will put in as His proxies within that nation? "Ten cities" here, "five cities" there, He will install US as His representatives in that nation!

Arnie Manitoba said:

AMEN !!!

Christians became sidetracked for thousands of years thinking they were Israel after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD

Since 1948 we have no excuse to carry on that error.

Click to expand...

I agree. Part of the reasons many felt like the Church was Israel was because there was no Israel after 70 AD. Yet they knew God made promises to Israel and the only explaination they had was that we the Church became the 'spritual Israel". Not all believed this however, and held to the truth that these promises would be fulfilled literally to the nation Israe one day.

Indeed, we no longer have an excuse. But, once a doctrine takes root, it is very difficult for the adherents of it to let go.

Quantrill

Retrobyter said:

Shalom, dragonfly.


Then you have rested your case on a poor foundation. Until you understand what the Kingdom is, you will continue to make these mistakes. The Kingdom over which the Messiah Yeshua` will rule is the SAME KINGDOM over which the Messiah David (His ancestor) ruled! Chew on that for a while.

First, "Isra'el" does NOT mean "God prevails." You've misread the name:
Genesis 32:23-33
23(22) He got up that night, took his two wives, his two slave-girls, and his eleven children, and forded the Yabok. 24(23) He took them and sent them across the stream, then sent his possessions across; 25(24) and Ya‘akov was left alone. Then some man wrestled with him until daybreak. 26(25) When he saw that he did not defeat Ya‘akov, he struck Ya‘akov’s hip socket, so that his hip was dislocated while wrestling with him. 27(26) The man said, “Let me go, because it’s daybreak.” But Ya‘akov replied, “I won’t let you go unless you bless me.” 28(27) The man asked, “What is your name?” and he answered, “Ya‘akov.” 29(28) Then the man said, “From now on, you will no longer be called Ya‘akov, but Isra’el; because you have shown your strength to both God and men and have prevailed.” 30(29) Ya‘akov asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he answered, “Why are you asking about my name?” and blessed him there.
(iii) 31(30) Ya‘akov called the place P’ni-El [face of God], “Because I have seen God face to face, yet my life is spared.” 32(31) As the sun rose upon him he went on past P’ni-El, limping at the hip. 33(32) This is why, to this day, the people of Isra’el do not eat the thigh muscle that passes along the hip socket — because the man struck Ya‘akov’s hip at its socket.
CJB

Here's the Hebrew of verse 29 (verse 28 in the TANAKH, the Hebrew Bible):

28 Vayo’mer, “Lo Ya`aqov yee’aameer `owd shimkhaa kiy im Yisraa’eel kiy saariytaa `im Elohiym v`im anaashiym vatuwkhaal.”

28 Vayo’mer, = 28 And-he-said,
“Lo = “No
Ya`aqov = Jacob
`owd = more
shimkhaa = thy-name
kiy = for
im = look! (OT:518)
Yisraa’eel = Isra’el
kiy = for
saariytaa = you-(singular)-have-prevailed-as-a-prince
`im = with (OT:5973)
Elohiym = God
v`im = and-with (OT:5973)
anaashiym (plural of iysh) = men
vatuwkhaal = and-you-(singular)-have-prevailed/won.

As additional information, I've included these definitions:


The key word is the Hebrew word "SAR!" It means "PRINCE!" Yeshua` is prophesied to be "Sar Shalom" the "Prince of Peace." The word is found in both Yisraa'eel and in saariytaa! It literally means "he is a prince with God."

Second, Isra'el is NOT just the people, which are primarily the CHILDREN OF ISRA'EL, by the way! It is also the LAND! It is technically ANYTHING or ANYONE who belongs to the PERSON Yisraa'eel!

Ezekiel 36:1-38
1 Also, thou son of man, prophesy unto the mountains of Israel, and say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD:
2 Thus saith the LORD God; Because the enemy hath said against you, Aha, even the ancient high places are ours in possession:
3 Therefore prophesy and say, Thus saith the LORD God; Because they have made you desolate, and swallowed you up on every side, that ye might be a possession unto the residue of the heathen, and ye are taken up in the lips of talkers, and are an infamy of the people:
4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD God; Thus saith the LORD God to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the cities that are forsaken, which became a prey and derision to the residue of the heathen that are round about;
5 Therefore thus saith the LORD God; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against all Idumea, which have appointed my land into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey.
6 Prophesy therefore concerning the land of Israel, and say unto the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, I have spoken in my jealousy and in my fury, because ye have borne the shame of the heathen:
7 Therefore thus saith the LORD God; I have lifted up mine hand, Surely the heathen that are about you, they shall bear their shame.
8 But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to my people of Israel; for they are at hand to come.
9 For, behold, I am for you, and I will turn unto you, and ye shall be tilled and sown:
10 And I will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, even all of it: and the cities shall be inhabited, and the wastes shall be builded:
11 And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
12 Yea, I will cause men to walk upon you, even my people Israel; and they shall possess thee, and thou shalt be their inheritance, and thou shalt no more henceforth bereave them of men.
13 Thus saith the LORD God; Because they say unto you, Thou land devourest up men, and hast bereaved thy nations;
14 Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the LORD God.
15 Neither will I cause men to hear in thee the shame of the heathen any more, neither shalt thou bear the reproach of the people any more, neither shalt thou cause thy nations to fall any more, saith the LORD God.
16 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
17 Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman.
18 Wherefore I poured my fury upon them for the blood that they had shed upon the land, and for their idols wherewith they had polluted it:
19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
20 And when they entered unto the heathen, whither they went, they profaned my holy name, when they said to them, These are the people of the LORD and are gone forth out of his land.
21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the LORD God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the LORD God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the LORD God, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33 Thus saith the LORD God; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34 And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35 And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36 Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
37 Thus saith the LORD God; I will yet for this be inquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
38 As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
KJV

Gentiles have been ADDED to their numbers, but they have NEVER replaced them!

*****

Shalom, Quantrill.


I know it may take some time to accept, but at least you've heard it once here. Yes, you DO obtain citizenship with Isra'el! Not with the state of Isra'el as it stands today, but the Isra'el in which Yeshua` will reign as King!

Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV

Did you think I made this claim lightly?!

It wasn't just the Avrahamic Covenant into which Gentiles were brought; they were also brought in under the DAVIDIC Covenant! That is, under the Davidic Covenant - the Covenant that God made with David to always have one of his sons rule on the throne of Isra'el (as long as such "throne" exists) and to make one of his heirs, Yeshua`, that King forever, they were also made kings and priests - LITERALLY - under Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym, Jesus the Messiah of God! And, if that King will never die (again), then who are HIS heirs? They are ALSO descendants of David who was a Jew, that is, a descendant of Y'hudah, and they are also heirs WITH the Messiah of His Kingship! Over whom will they reign? Well, over whom will the Messiah reign? Step by step, individual by individual, nation by nation, Yeshua` will subdue his enemies throughout the Millennium until He is a World Emperor - King of kings and Master of masters! Once a nation has been subdued, who do you think He will put in as His proxies within that nation? "Ten cities" here, "five cities" there, He will install US as His representatives in that nation!

Click to expand...

Again, no. Our citizenship is with Heaven. Not Israel. Even the saved Jew, who will inherit the Kingdom where Jesus Christ will reign literally from Jerusalem, is first a citizen of Heaven. But his inheiritance in the family of God is as an Israelite.

We the Church are a different body of believers. Our citizenship is in Heaven just as the saved Israelite of the Kingdom reign is. But our inheiritance is not earthly at all. The Church is in relation with Christ as Bride and Wife to be. Israels relation with her Messiah and King will be as Messiah and King. We are both citizens of Heaven. But the Church is not a citizen of Israel.

I haver no doubt that Jesus Christ will rule and reign forever.

No, the Church does not come into the Davidic Covenant. It does come into the Abrahamic Covennt as the New Covenant is part of the Abrahamic Covenant. But it does not come into the Davidic Covenant though that too is part of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Im not sure who you mean as 'US'.

Quantril

Hi Quantrill,

If Israel is not a place and people then the Abrahamic Covenant is a lie.

Gen.12:1-3 " Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindreds, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee And I will make of thee, a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing."

Gen. 12:7 " And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land:...."

Click to expand...

Those are great verses! Where does it say that 'the land' is called 'Israel'?

The phrase, 'the land of Israel', which does appear in scripture, is a reference to the geographical location of the people descended from their father Israel who separated from their brethren Judah and Benjamin - and Ephraim - under Rehoboam's tenure as king of the whole house of Israel (when he took the throne). Within a very short time - due to the two golden calves set up by Jeroboam - the Assyrians had been prompted by God to invade. 'The land' by now had become 'Samaria', and even Samaria was invaded by the next Assyrian king.

The idea that the land itself is called Israel is not in scripture at all. In fact, the term 'the nations' is very much a reference to people, their idols and the demons which facilitate their alternative worship system. God says at the end of Leviticus 18 that if the Israelites 'do' what the people currently dwelling on the land do, the land itself will vomit them out, just as God was driving 'the nations' (and their gods) out before the Israelites as the Israelites took possession of 'the land'.

The question for 'new covenant' believers of every ethnic background is... what is 'the land' I am supposed to 'possess'?

That the Church is made up of both Jew and Gentile, yes. That the Church is a nation of priests, yes.

Click to expand...

Acknowledged.

That the Church is Israel, no.

Click to expand...

I don't see any of the verses you give proving your point that the Church is Israel.

Click to expand...

That's because you don't understand what God was talking about when He made His covenant with Abram.

There are many other verses in scripture which support what I've expressed briefly, but if your head is full of alternative teachings, unless you are prepared to lay them aside at least temporarily, and look at both the New and the Old Testament together with the possibility that you've missed an important detail upon which other interpretation depends, you will continue to miss all the supporting evidence for what I've expressed.

A verse worth studying in detail, is Galatians 3:14, especially when added to Galatians 3:8. Note Paul's use of 'we'.

Even the way Jesus side-steps the disciples' question about restoring 'the kingdom to Israel' is a big clue that their definition of Israel was wrong.

If you look carefully in both Paul and Peter's writing, you may eventually begin to recognise that the Gentiles who had joined the Church by then (seeing it was all 'Jews' initially, whether descendants of Israel or proselytes) were included in 'Israel', and unbelievers - whether circumcised or uncircumcised - were included with 'sinners of the Gentiles'.

With that in mind, please read this, and keep an eye open for the other places where this is implicit in the text.
Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, 18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; 19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness, 20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. 21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? 22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? 23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? 24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.

25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

With God's promise to David that his descendant would reign over an everlasting kingdom, surely Paul explains how this works in his teaching in Acts 13?

17 The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it. 18 And about the time of forty years suffered he their manners in the wilderness. 19 And when he had destroyed seven nations in the land of Chanaan, he divided their land to them by lot. 20 And after that he gave unto them judges about the space of four hundred and fifty years, until Samuel the prophet. 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. 26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid himin a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. 42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.


Furthermore, please compare the content of Paul's preaching here, with Peter's on the day of Pentecost.

And please re-read Hebrews 9:15 until you've pondered the significance of the last two words?


I will not have time to add at length like this to the discussion here, but I will watch for your response.

Apologies if I sound brusque. I don't have time to pad my comments with niceties.


Blessings to you in Christ.





To Retrobyter,

I know you are banking on being counted as a fleshly Israelite for your eternity, but I don't think that's what the NT teaches. And yes, I have read the OT, and I still don't think God is speaking about an earthly kingdom, except as it touches our flesh bodies as in Romans 8:11 and 13 - through the power of the Holy Spirit which rests upon those who obey Him.



Sorry veteran... that's the truth. I am very unsure that 'a thousand years' can be depended on to last a thousand years as we would define a millennium in temporal terms.



Blessings to you both, in Christ.

Shalom, Quantrill.

Quantrill said:

...

Again, no. Our citizenship is with Heaven. Not Israel. Even the saved Jew, who will inherit the Kingdom where Jesus Christ will reign literally from Jerusalem, is first a citizen of Heaven. But his inheiritance in the family of God is as an Israelite.

We the Church are a different body of believers. Our citizenship is in Heaven just as the saved Israelite of the Kingdom reign is. But our inheiritance is not earthly at all. The Church is in relation with Christ as Bride and Wife to be. Israels relation with her Messiah and King will be as Messiah and King. We are both citizens of Heaven. But the Church is not a citizen of Israel.

I haver no doubt that Jesus Christ will rule and reign forever.

No, the Church does not come into the Davidic Covenant. It does come into the Abrahamic Covennt as the New Covenant is part of the Abrahamic Covenant. But it does not come into the Davidic Covenant though that too is part of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Im not sure who you mean as 'US'.

Quantril

Click to expand...

"Heaven" is not a place, at least, not in the sense that most mean it. When one describes "Heaven," what do they usually say? It has pearly gates and streets of gold, right? These are a description of the NEW JERUSALEM, not "Heaven!" (See Revelation 21:1-22:5.)

Furthermore, what do we know about the New Jerusalem? Doesn't it have twelve gates which are named for the twelve tribes of Isra'el? Why is it called the "New JERUSALEM?" When it descends to the New Earth, where do you suppose it will land?

Now, "heaven" is not a place that is separate from the earth. It is the ATMOSPHERE around the planet! It's the SKY! Both the Hebrew word "shemayim" and the Greek word "ouranos" are used for the place where the BIRDS FLY! Furthermore, look at this passage of Scripture:

Matthew 16:1-4
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
KJV

Notice the highlighted words above. All four of these words come from the SAME GREEK WORD, "ouranos!" Here's the Greek of the passage:

Kata Maththaion 16:1-4
1 Kai proselthontes hoi Farisaioi kai Saddoukaioi peirazontes epeerooteesan auton seemeion ek tou ouranou epideixai autois.
2 Ho de apokritheis eipen autois, “Opsias genomenees legete, ‘Eudia,’ purrazei gar ho ouranos,
3 kai prooi, “Seemeron cheimoon,” purrazei gar stugnazoon ho ouranos. To men prosoopon tou ouranou ginooskete diakrinein, ta de seemeia toon kairoon ou dunasthe?
4 Genea pontera kai moichalis seemeion epizeetei, kai seemeion ou dotheesetai autee ei mee to seemeion Ioona.” Kai katalipoon autous apeelthen.
The Greek New Testament (UBS)

Notice that it is indeed the SAME WORD used in verses 1, 2 and 3!

So, when Yeshua` (Jesus) answered them, He GAVE them a "sign from the sky," just as they requested! "Red sky at night, a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!" And yet, one NEVER sees that fact in ANY of the common English versions of the Bible! It's always written as "heaven" in verse 1 and "sky" in verses 2 and 3! Why is that?!

There's another Greek word that means "of or belonging to above the sky." That word is "epouranios." It's used for the area where the sun, moon, and stars exist:

1 Corinthians 15:40-41
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
KJV

Here, it was translated as "celestial," but in other places, it's translated "heavenly." It can be found in Matthew 18:35, John 3:12, 1 Corinthians 15:40 (twice), 1 Corinthians 15:48 (twice), 1 Corinthians 15:49, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 1:20, Ephesians 2:6, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 6:12, Philippians 2:10, 2 Timothy 4:18, Hebrews 3:1, Hebrews 6:4, Hebrews 8:5, Hebrews 9:23, Hebrews 11:16, and Hebrews 12:22.

As I've said before, we are NOT taught in the Scriptures to anticipate "going to Heaven!" We are taught to anticipate the RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES!

When you can come to understand that "ouranos" means the "sky," it will help passages of Scripture to take on whole new meanings for you and make the Scriptures much more concrete and real to you!

For instance, when Yeshua` rose into "heaven" and was "received by a cloud," there's nothing mysterious about it (other than gravity being overcome); He went into the sky and was hidden by a cloud in the sky!

Acts 1:9-11
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
KJV

The words "heaven" here are, once again, the word "ouranos."

And, time doesn't permit going into all the other problems in what you've said in the above quote. Just note that one should NEVER use the capitalized word "Church," ESPECIALLY if one is going to allow that to take on some new life of its own! A "church" (from the Greek word "kuriokon," meaning "of the Lord," but translated from the Greek word "ekkleesia," meaning "a called-out [gathering]") is merely a congregation of people, congregating for a common purpose. It can be to worship the Lord together, but it can also mean a "town meeting," as it did in Ephesus in Acts 19:32, 39, and 41.

Tell me this: Did God send His Son to die for an organization, or did He send Him to die for PEOPLE, for INDIVIDUALS?! Unless believers are COLLECTED TOGETHER, there IS NO "church!" As in a town council, when the meeting is adjourned, the meeting ceases to exist. The members of the town council may be elected officials that will always be present when the council is convened, but it is only when they are present together in the capacity of the town council that they are in that meeting! Now, it may exist whenever "two or three are gathered together," but it is ONLY when they are gathered together that they should be called a "church."

dragonfly

Well, if God says 'the land of Israel' I am willing to call it the land of Israel. We are talking about a specific geogrphical area of importance to God. God gave it to Israel. God calls it the land of Israel.

Though God promised to remove the people of Israel from the land if they turned away from Him, He always was clear that He would return them to the land and fulfill all His promises under the Abrahamic Covenant.

As Christians we do not need to concern ourselves with the land of Israel as our inheiritance. It is not ours. We are the Body and Bride of Christ. We can learn many spiritual truths concerning Israel's history with that land, past present and future. But it is Israel's to inheirit. Not ours.

I don't see what Gal. 3:1-8 is supposed to prove. It concerns 'spirit and law', and that Gentiles would be justified by faith. So?

Jesus didn't sidestep anything. He simply told the disciples it wasn't for them to know the time when the kingdom would be restored to Israel. Acts 1:7

Concerning Rom.2:17-25 Paul is addressing the Jew. Not a Gentile. The true Jew is the Jew who believes. The Gentile doesn't become a Jew because he believes. The Jew who doesn't believe is in God's eyes not a Jew.

I don't know what your point is concerning Acts 13.

I don't know what your point is concerning Heb.9:15

Quantrill

Hi Quantrill,

Thanks for your reply.

The verses I gave in Galatians 3 are 8 and 14, (and 28 and 29) - not 1 - 8. 8 and 14 are directly linked to Hebrews 9:15 and Romans 4:16.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Here is Paul's open salvo in Romans 1.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

How can you possibly carry on believing a fragment of the book (in chapter 2) is directed only at 'the Jew'?

I don't know what your point is concerning Acts 13.

I don't know what your point is concerning Heb.9:15

Click to expand...

That is why I bring them to your attention for further study.