“THIS” gospel of the kingdom

Quantrill · Jan 15, 2014

Retrobyter

Heaven is a place just as much as any other 'place' is a place.

Heaven is not just 'sky'. Heaven is the place where God dwells. A place where we at present are not.

I didn't say 'sky' doesn't exist. I agree with Matt. 6:1-4.

The context of the greek word used for 'sky' or 'heaven' will tell you which is being addressed. 'Kingdom of Heaven' depicts not a kingdom of the sky. But a Kingdom from where God dwells. 'Our Father who art in Heaven' does not depict God in the sky. But it depicts 'God who dwells in a place called Heaven'.

I anticipate going to Heaven. John 14:1-3 " ...In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you....that where I am, there ye may be also." And where did Jesus go and where does He now sit? In Heaven at the right hand of the Father.

Capitalize what you want, and I will captalize what I want.

I don't deny what the Church is. The Church is the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ. I deny that the Church and Israel are the same.

Quantrill

dragonfly said:
Hi Quantrill,

Thanks for your reply.

The verses I gave in Galatians 3 are 8 and 14, (and 28 and 29) - not 1 - 8. 8 and 14 are directly linked to Hebrews 9:15 and Romans 4:16.

Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Here is Paul's open salvo in Romans 1.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

How can you possibly carry on believing a fragment of the book (in chapter 2) is directed only at 'the Jew'?

That is why I bring them to your attention for further study.

Well, explain how these verses in Gal.and Heb. are linked and what they add to your argument.

I do not deny that salvation is by faith. Both to the Jew and Gentile.

I believe those verses you gave are clear that the Jew is being addressed. If a Jew is being addressed, then I believe it is being addressed to the Jew.

I didn't say I don't understand what Acts 13 and Heb.9 are saying. I don't uderstand what point you are trying to make with them.

Quantrill

Retrobyter · Jan 15, 2014

Shalom, Quantrill.

Quantrill said:
Retrobyter

Heaven is a place just as much as any other 'place' is a place.

Heaven is not just 'sky'. Heaven is the place where God dwells. A place where we at present are not.

I didn't say 'sky' doesn't exist. I agree with Matt. 6:1-4.

The context of the greek word used for 'sky' or 'heaven' will tell you which is being addressed. 'Kingdom of Heaven' depicts not a kingdom of the sky. But a Kingdom from where God dwells. 'Our Father who art in Heaven' does not depict God in the sky. But it depicts 'God who dwells in a place called Heaven'.

I anticipate going to Heaven. John 14:1-3 " ...In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you....that where I am, there ye may be also." And where did Jesus go and where does He now sit? In Heaven at the right hand of the Father.

Capitalize what you want, and I will captalize what I want.

I don't deny what the Church is. The Church is the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ. I deny that the Church and Israel are the same.

Quantrill
...

Well, I'm just going to chalk this up to being another person who is not ready, yet, to understand. That's okay, because we all learn things at our own pace.

I'm GLAD that, if you cannot accept that the Gentile believers (called by you the "Church") are grafted into the Messiah's Isra'el, that you at least make a difference between the "Church" and Isra'el. That at least keeps you from making the Replacement Theology mistake.

God bless you in your learning.

dragonfly · Jan 15, 2014

Hi Quantrill,

From your replies, it does look as if your doctrine has been gleaned from the teachings of men, rather than the teachings of scripture.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I am not going to spell out what is already there for you to discover on the surface of the page, so I will offer some questions, one at a time.

Concerning Rom.2:17-25 Paul is addressing the Jew. Not a Gentile. The true Jew is the Jew who believes. The Gentile doesn't become a Jew because he believes. The Jew who doesn't believe is in God's eyes not a Jew.

The above quote is from your last post to me on p2 of this thread. You conclude 'The Gentile doesn't become a Jew because he believes', but is that what Paul actually says?

No! It is not. Paul states:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

That means the equality between Jews and Gentiles within the Church which elsewhere he expresses, is based on this truth. Colossians 2:

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

The part in bold applies to all Christians, not just Jewish Christians. We know Jews are included, because he mentions the law. This is a similar scenario to the letter to the Romans in that the local assembly is an ethnic mixture of Jews and non-Jews.

I'm mentioning this to show that Paul is consistent. God had sent him to preach to both Jews and Gentiles. Earlier in Romans he has shown how there is no difference between them neither in respect to their need for salvation, nor the Saviour whom God provided according to His righteousness.

This is critically important when considering Paul's thesis about Abraham in Romans 4 - which is why I brought verse 16 there into this discussion.

So... here is my question;

Paul refers in Galatians 3:8, to 'the gospel'. How would you define 'the gospel' which 'God ... preached before' 'unto Abraham'?

I will watch for your reply, thanks.

Hi Retrobyter,

You, too, are following teachings of men if you think I am suggesting that the Church has replaced Israel.

Quantrill · Jan 15, 2014

dragonfly said:
Hi Quantrill,

From your replies, it does look as if your doctrine has been gleaned from the teachings of men, rather than the teachings of scripture.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I am not going to spell out what is already there for you to discover on the surface of the page, so I will offer some questions, one at a time.

The above quote is from your last post to me on p2 of this thread. You conclude 'The Gentile doesn't become a Jew because he believes', but is that what Paul actually says?

No! It is not. Paul states:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

That means the equality between Jews and Gentiles within the Church which elsewhere he expresses, is based on this truth. Colossians 2:

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

The part in bold applies to all Christians, not just Jewish Christians. We know Jews are included, because he mentions the law. This is a similar scenario to the letter to the Romans in that the local assembly is an ethnic mixture of Jews and non-Jews.

I'm mentioning this to show that Paul is consistent. God had sent him to preach to both Jews and Gentiles. Earlier in Romans he has shown how there is no difference between them neither in respect to their need for salvation, nor the Saviour whom God provided according to His righteousness.

This is critically important when considering Paul's thesis about Abraham in Romans 4 - which is why I brought verse 16 there into this discussion.

So... here is my question;

Paul refers in Galatians 3:8, to 'the gospel'. How would you define 'the gospel' which 'God ... preached before' 'unto Abraham'?

I will watch for your reply, thanks.

Hi Retrobyter,

You, too, are following teachings of men if you think I am suggesting that the Church has replaced Israel.

Yes, that is what Paul is saying. Paul is not saying a Gentile bcomes a Jew when he believes. Paul is saying that the true Jew is the Jew who believes and is circumcised in the heart and spirit.

Of course both Jew and Gentile make up the Body of Christ. But that is the Body of Christ. Not Israel.

Again, I do not deny that the Gentiles will be saved. I deny that the Church is Isreal or replaces Israel. I deny that the Church becomes 'citizens' of Israel. You keep bringing up verses that don't add to your point. So, tell me how Rom. 4 and Gal.3:8 support what you are saying.

After all, you're the one with the 'true' doctrine as mine was gleaned from men. As you say.

Quantrill

Dodo_David · Jan 15, 2014

dragonfly said:
Hi Quantrill,

From your replies, it does look as if your doctrine has been gleaned from the teachings of men, rather than the teachings of scripture.

dragonfly,

That it looks that way to you doesn't necessarily mean that it is that. Other Christians may see it differently.

***

ALL: The disagreements frequently expressed on this site are often unnecessarily abrasive.

The fact that another person disagrees with your interpretation of the Bible doesn't necessarily mean that the other person is promoting a doctrine of men. It merely mean that you and the other person have a disagreement about the correct interpretation of the Bible.

If one says "I disagree with that interpretation" or "I can't reconcile that interpretation to what I read in the Bible", then one disagrees in a way that is tactful.

dragonfly · Jan 16, 2014

Hi David,

dragonfly,

That it looks that way to you doesn't necessarily mean that it is that. Other Christians may see it differently.

Of course!

But this is a public discussion between myself and Quantrill, and it is surely okay for me to ask him to look at certain verses more closely so as to think about why it is I may have come to a different conclusion from himself to date. I didn't always 'look' at this topic in the way that I do now, and the only reason I have changed, is a result of grappling with what scripture actually states, whether or not it agreed with currently popular 'doctrine'.

Btw, I don't see this as a disagreement at all. I am well aware of the many details in scripture which I had never computed, to the extent that I now expect to be corrected from my preconceptions when I read scripture, having no idea what the Lord is going to bring to my attention, next.

I have already mentioned to Quantrill that I don't have much time. And, I stand by my statement because I know that Quantrill's stated doctrinal position is not in line with historical Christianity; it is a relatively recent interpretation based on one man's reading of scripture which he put into book form.

Retrobyter · Jan 16, 2014

Shalom, dragonfly.

dragonfly said:
...

Hi Retrobyter,

You, too, are following teachings of men if you think I am suggesting that the Church has replaced Israel.

I'm following the Scriptures just fine, thank you. The trouble is when one is still thinking that the "Church" is the main set of believers and that Jewish believers and non-Jewish believers are subsets within the "Church." That's BACKWARDS! It may be a common belief based on ... what? It's based on ... NOTHING, really; it's just a "feeling" that people get after being so comfortable with a preconceived concept of the "Church."

First of all, as I said above, the "Church" is NOT an entity in the Scriptures! It is merely a COLLECTIVE NOUN (ADJECTIVE, really)! The word "ekkleesia" in the Greek New Testament, translated as "church," is really no different than the words "flock (of sheep)," "herd (of cattle)," "school (of fish)," or "pride (of lions)!" It's a "CALLED-OUT (group)" of people!

Yeshua` the Messiah (Jesus the Christ) did not die for the "church!" He died for INDIVIDUALS!!! Since most are okay with thinking of ourselves as "the sheep of His pasture," let's make a simple substitution:

Ephesians 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the flock, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious flock, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
KJV

That's what the word means! It does NOT mean an entity that takes on a life of its own! Yes, the pronouns are singular, but we all know that a collective noun has many members in the group! So, even though the "flock" is referred to as a single thing, we know that there are potentially hundreds even thousands of members within the flock! The same is true for the "church," and Yeshua` said...

Matthew 18:19-20
19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
KJV

So, even a group of only two or three is sufficient to make up such a gathering.

The "container," so to speak, is not a "church!" It's the OLIVE TREE! It's the collection of natural branches (the Hebrews) and the wild branches (the Gentiles), and the shoresh Daviyd, the rootstock of David, as well. It's the Isra'el over which Yeshua` will reign when He returns!

veteran · Jan 16, 2014

Quantrill said:
The Gospel of the Kingdom presents Jesus Christ as the King coming. It is specifically directed to Israel as Israel was and is in a state of judgement from God. It requires repentance on her part. That Kingdom was and will be on the earth with Israel as the leading nation. Because during the Tribulation period, Israel will turn back to God and recieve Christ as Her King and Messiah.

We who are the Church do not bring the Gospel of the Kingdom. Though we teach about the Kingdom of course. But our Gospel, the good news is not the Gospel of the Kingdom. The good news is 'believe on Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved'. Neither John the Baptist, nor Jesus, nor the disciples preached this at the begining of Christ's ministry. They preached 'repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand'.

See the difference?

Quantrill

There is NO difference between God's Israel and Christ's Church. BOTH inherit together as written in the Old Testament prophets and New Testament Apostles.

Quantrill said:
Retrobyter

No I don't ignore Eph.2 or Rom.11. But that does not say the Christian is a citizen of Israel.

We as Christians are fellow citizens with the saints and household of God. Eph. 2:19 We do not obtain citizenship with Israel. We obtain citizenship with the household of God of which Israel is part of. Thu we are near Israel now where as before we were faraway. 2:12-13

The children of Israel werre not 'near' as you say. They were there. We as Gentiles were far away. But are brought near to Israel when we believe.

I see nothing in Rom. 11 to indicate we as Christians are citizens of Israel. I see only how that Gentiles were brought into the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant just as Israel was. See. Gal. 3:6-16.

Quantrill

Just because some Biblically unlearned men (like C.R. Stam, et al) saw different phrases like "gospel of the kingdom of God", "gospel of Jesus Christ", "my gospel" (Paul), "gospel of the uncircumcision", etc., that means they're all different gospels??? That's jibberish by another spirit, and is not from God in His Word.

That confusion is what happens when Christian brethren hang in the New Testament too much forgetting to study and understand the Old Testament prophecies about the one Gospel. To make sure Christians would not go into that confusion about The Gospel Apostle Paul made specific connections with the Old Testament prophets in his Epistles, and especially with the Faith of Abraham being the 'same' Faith we have believed. Ephesians 2 and Romans 11 are only two specific examples by Apostle Paul, there are many more in The New Testament Books, especially by Paul.

So if Apostle Paul did NOT separate the gospel wondered at and first given through God's OT prophets from The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then no man today can do that either and claim to actually be following God's Word as written.

Quantrill said:
Of course both Jew and Gentile make up the Body of Christ. But that is the Body of Christ. Not Israel.

That shows you've totally missed your Old Testament Bible history, for the lost ten tribes of Israel were scattered among the Gentiles long, long ago and God has a lot to say about them involving His Salvation going to the Gentiles.

In other words, LOT of today's Christian believers that 'think' they are Gentiles really are remnants of the actual 'seed' of Israel which God scattered among the Gentiles long ago. The original Jews of Bible history was only about one part of old Israel, specifically those of Israel that fell under the tribe of Judah and house of David at Jerusalem/Judea after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms (see 1 Kings 11 through 1 Kings 12).

The prophecy given to Ephraim by his father Jacob was that his seed would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). Ephraim was the head tribe over the ten tribes of Israel that made up the northern kingdom of Israel after the split. God scattered them among the Gentiles first while the Jews of the southern kingdom remained in the holy land until their later captivity to Babylon.

Once God scattered the ten tribes after a while they became lost, and that included the tribe of Ephraim with them. So WHERE do you think that Gen.48 prophecy about Ephraim's seed becoming "a multitude of nations" was fulfilled?

This is why no one can rightly separate Christ's Church and Christianity apart from God's Israel per His Plan of Salvation, for Christ's Church represents the other "nation" of Matthew 21 that Jesus said His vineyard would be given to and it would produce the fruits. In Isaiah 5 the "house of Israel" (ten tribes of Israel) represents His "vineyard" per that parable. So how has that been fulfilled like Jesus said it would be in Matthew 21? Certainly not by unbelieving Jews!

Quantrill · Jan 17, 2014

veteran said:
There is NO difference between God's Israel and Christ's Church. BOTH inherit together as written in the Old Testament prophets and New Testament Apostles.

Just because some Biblically unlearned men (like C.R. Stam, et al) saw different phrases like "gospel of the kingdom of God", "gospel of Jesus Christ", "my gospel" (Paul), "gospel of the uncircumcision", etc., that means they're all different gospels??? That's jibberish by another spirit, and is not from God in His Word.

That confusion is what happens when Christian brethren hang in the New Testament too much forgetting to study and understand the Old Testament prophecies about the one Gospel. To make sure Christians would not go into that confusion about The Gospel Apostle Paul made specific connections with the Old Testament prophets in his Epistles, and especially with the Faith of Abraham being the 'same' Faith we have believed. Ephesians 2 and Romans 11 are only two specific examples by Apostle Paul, there are many more in The New Testament Books, especially by Paul.

So if Apostle Paul did NOT separate the gospel wondered at and first given through God's OT prophets from The Gospel of Jesus Christ, then no man today can do that either and claim to actually be following God's Word as written.

That shows you've totally missed your Old Testament Bible history, for the lost ten tribes of Israel were scattered among the Gentiles long, long ago and God has a lot to say about them involving His Salvation going to the Gentiles.

In other words, LOT of today's Christian believers that 'think' they are Gentiles really are remnants of the actual 'seed' of Israel which God scattered among the Gentiles long ago. The original Jews of Bible history was only about one part of old Israel, specifically those of Israel that fell under the tribe of Judah and house of David at Jerusalem/Judea after God split old Israel into two separate kingdoms (see 1 Kings 11 through 1 Kings 12).

The prophecy given to Ephraim by his father Jacob was that his seed would become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). Ephraim was the head tribe over the ten tribes of Israel that made up the northern kingdom of Israel after the split. God scattered them among the Gentiles first while the Jews of the southern kingdom remained in the holy land until their later captivity to Babylon.

Once God scattered the ten tribes after a while they became lost, and that included the tribe of Ephraim with them. So WHERE do you think that Gen.48 prophecy about Ephraim's seed becoming "a multitude of nations" was fulfilled?

This is why no one can rightly separate Christ's Church and Christianity apart from God's Israel per His Plan of Salvation, for Christ's Church represents the other "nation" of Matthew 21 that Jesus said His vineyard would be given to and it would produce the fruits. In Isaiah 5 the "house of Israel" (ten tribes of Israel) represents His "vineyard" per that parable. So how has that been fulfilled like Jesus said it would be in Matthew 21? Certainly not by unbelieving Jews!

As I have said, the Church comes into the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant. We definitely exercise the same faith as Abraham. But, that does not make the Church the same body as Israel. Abraham was not an Israelite when he believed. Israel didn't come into existance until Ex.19.

No matter who you are trying to make as 'Israel' or 'Gentiles', God has made the difference in the Bible. Rom 11:25 ' For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. "

Concerning what you call 'God's Israel per His Plan of Salvation', I am not separating the Church from God's plan concerning Israel. The Church is very much linked to Israel, but that does not make us the same body of believers.

You give several Bible references but not the verses themselves. If you want to discuss them, do it one at a time and show how they prove your point.

Quantrill

veteran · Jan 18, 2014

Quantrill said:
As I have said, the Church comes into the blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant. We definitely exercise the same faith as Abraham. But, that does not make the Church the same body as Israel.

If you really understood Bible prophecy about the ten tribes then you wouldn't think that.

Quantrill said:
Abraham was not an Israelite when he believed. Israel didn't come into existance until Ex.19.

Israel is a salvation name which God gave Jacob to represent His Salvation. Clearly you have yet to understand that also. Look up the definition of that name Israel. Just because you've been taught Israel means only Jews, with a majority of them having rejected our Lord Jesus does not detract from the 'name' Israel within God's Salvation Plan through His Son Jesus Christ. Or have you forgotten why The Gospel went to Israel first?

Quantrill said:
No matter who you are trying to make as 'Israel' or 'Gentiles', God has made the difference in the Bible. Rom 11:25 ' For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. "

I'm not "making" anyone anything, God already has when He gave His Birthright blessings to the 'seed' of Israel, and The Gospel of Jesus Christ was... received by the remnant of Israel that He preserved, as written by Apostle Paul in that Romans 11 chapter. So just because He elected the literal seed of Israel in His Salvation and some of them have not believed does not detract from His Promises to that seed which DID BELIEVE. That is the subject of Romans 11 by Paul also.

You're not the first person coming here pushing the double Gospel idea, one for Israel and another for Gentiles. So you're not fooling anyone, certainly not me.

The only reason some 'men' came up with that false double Gospel idea is so they could push their secret Pre-trib Rapture theory, because Jesus showed in Matt.24 and Mark 13 His saints not being gathered until after the great tribulation He taught there, and those men won't have none of that, for it would mean Christ's Church will go through the great tribulation. By that they TRY to separate the seed of Israel apart from His Church, but it's stupid, because Christ was speaking directly to His Church upon the Mount of Olives there that were with Him, for His Apostles and the prophets make up the original foundation of Christ's Church, Jesus Himself being the Chief Cornerstone (as written by Apostle Paul himself).

One must give up much of both written Old Testament and New Testament Scriptures to believe the false double Gospel idea of men.

Quantrill said:
Concerning what you call 'God's Israel per His Plan of Salvation', I am not separating the Church from God's plan concerning Israel. The Church is very much linked to Israel, but that does not make us the same body of believers.

Yes, you are. A separation is exactly... what you are preaching. And it is falseness from men's traditions. None of the Apostles ever taught that. Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2 even revealed how believing Gentiles have come INTO the covenants and promises God gave the seed of Israel, and even presented a label to describe them WITHIN Israel, i.e., the "commonwealth of Israel".

The problem in understanding you have is the same many of my Christian brethren have, not knowing how the concept of God's Church began in Old Testament history and has continued with believing Israel and the promise of Christ's coming to die on the cross fulfilling that Old Testament promise TO ISRAEL.

And if you understood Romans 11 instead of just quoting a verse from it, you would have also understood how God has spiritually blinded Israel in part today, i.e., the unbelieving Jews, so The Gospel could go to us Gentiles, and then in final those blinded will have their eyes open to believe, the majority of them not being lost.

Heb 11:13
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
(KJV)

Do you realize what that above Heb.11:13 Scripture means regarding the Old Testament seed of Israel that died in Faith? Just WHAT... did they see afar off? The Gospel of Jesus Christ of course, for The Gospel Message actually BEGINS in the Old Testament Books.

Heb 11:39-40
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
(KJV)

If the Old Testament saints didn't receive the Promise, then how is it they are included with us... ALREADY??? Because of the election of 'seed' that God made prior to us, and per their Faith on The Promise they saw afar off, i.e., The Promise of Christ Jesus The Saviour.

Quantrill said:
You give several Bible references but not the verses themselves. If you want to discuss them, do it one at a time and show how they prove your point.

No, what you should do instead is go INTO... your Bible and study those passages for yourself, because it's obvious you haven't really even 'read' them much less study them. I dare say you didn't even know some of those things there I mention from them because you haven't studied them.

When you've done that, then come back to me, in sincereness, and I'll be glad to discuss them with you.

Quantrill · Jan 19, 2014

veteran

Just because Israel means 'salvation' proves nothing to your point or mine. Abraham was not an Isaelite and it is his faith that was being addressed. We who are the Church do come into that 'faith'. But we do not become Israel or any sort of 'spiritual Israel'.

There are elect in all categories of Israel, Gentiles, and the angels. That does not make Israel the Church or the Church Israel. They are distinct bodies of believers who are elect.

Im not pushing anything. Im giving what I believe the Scripture teaches. If you don't agree, fine. Present your case and I will present mine.

You have confused those who were saved with those who are not saved in comparing Rom.11 to Heb.11. Those in Heb. 11 are those of 'faith'. They believed. They were not blinded. They don't need any veil lifted from their eyes to believe. And that is the veil that Rom 11 is adddressing.

Im quite sincere.

Quantrill

dragonfly · Jan 19, 2014

Hi Quantrill,

In further support of the opening comments in my post # 51 on p2 of this thread, here are some verses which show 'the land' being referred to separately from 'the people' who are called 'Israel'.

2 Kings 17:1 In the twelfth year of Ahaz king of Judah began Hoshea the son of Elah to reign in Samaria over Israel nine years.

5 Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years.

6 In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria...'

7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the Lord their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, 8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the Lord cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made. 9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the Lord their God, and they...'

Now, this I will give you - that the Lord had arranged for the tribes of Israel to be apportioned the land - but this I will not give you ... that the land was ever called 'Israel' separately from the people. All through these dealings, it is clear that when God is speaking to 'Israel', He is speaking to 'the people', not 'the land'. God's 'inheritance' is His people. The people can only 'inherit the land' 'forever' if they obey Him and cleave to righteousness. This fact is repeated time and again throughout the Old Testament. Israel the people do not have a land inheritance separate, or apart from, their relationship with God. If they are following idolatry or some other man-made religion, they are excluded.... by God Himself.

19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the Lord their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. 20 And the Lord rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. 21 For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the Lord, and made them sin a great sin. 22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them; 23 Until the Lord removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land [which was by then being called Samaria] to Assyria unto this day.

veteran · Jan 19, 2014

Quantrill said:
veteran

Just because Israel means 'salvation' proves nothing to your point or mine. Abraham was not an Isaelite and it is his faith that was being addressed. We who are the Church do come into that 'faith'. But we do not become Israel or any sort of 'spiritual Israel'.

What all did God 'include'... to Abraham in regard to that Promise by Faith? It included the blessing of many seed, blessing of lands, wealth, etc. It's about God's Birthright to Israel, as those things were included given to Abraham first. That's why Apostle Paul talks about those in Christ Jesus inheriting... with Abraham. Just so happens, those included things 'continued'... through Abraham's son Isaac, then to Jacob, then to Joseph, and in final to Joseph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh where God's Birthright still... rests today. Try going back and studying that before trying to make a separation between God's Promise of Salvation to Abraham being different than what Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and Joseph's two sons received.

Quantrill said:
There are elect in all categories of Israel, Gentiles, and the angels. That does not make Israel the Church or the Church Israel. They are distinct bodies of believers who are elect.

Apostle Paul made no such distinction between believing Israel and believing Gentiles. But men's traditions try to, which is why they are false.

Quantrill said:
Im not pushing anything. Im giving what I believe the Scripture teaches. If you don't agree, fine. Present your case and I will present mine.

You have confused those who were saved with those who are not saved in comparing Rom.11 to Heb.11. Those in Heb. 11 are those of 'faith'. They believed. They were not blinded. They don't need any veil lifted from their eyes to believe. And that is the veil that Rom 11 is adddressing.

It's actually your move to supply proof of what you say. I have presented my case, even giving you Scripture to go check out.

The OT saints were elect just like these in Apostle Paul's days...

Rom 11:4-5
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
(KJV)

An elect seed of Israel according to God's election of grace? YES! Paul said it. So Romans 11 is NOT just about some idea that all Israel has a veil over their eyes like you wrongly infer. Paul said even in that time, his day, that branch of the literal seed of Israel according to God's election of grace then existed.

Rom 11:7
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
(KJV)

Clearly not all the seed of Israel was "blinded".

Only the majority of the branch of Israel known as the "house of Judah" in God's Word were blinded. That's who Apostle Paul was talking about after that 7th verse, his brethren the Jews which was historically the 3 tribed "house of Judah" only. The first 5 verses of that Rom.11 chapter is about the portion of Israel that was NOT... blinded.

So already there is a huge drift in your traditions from men, because Apostle Paul was specific that only a 'part' of the seed of Israel was blinded...

Rom 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
(KJV)

Quantrill · Jan 19, 2014

veteran

I never said there was a separation of salvation between Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. I said we the church are brought into the faith of Abraham. Abraham believed, and we believe. Abraham did not become part of Israel. And we the Church do not become part of Israel.

You have the distinictions in the Scripture of Jews and Gentiles. There are elect in both groups. The elect of the Jews and Gentiles today, become part of the Church.

Paul did make a distinction between believing Gentiles and Israel. Rom. 11:13 " For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office." These are believing Gentiles Paul is addressing.

I never said the Old Testament Saints were not elect. They were and are. But that doesn't mean they are all Israel. Adam was not part of Israel. Nor Able or Seth, or Noah. They still come into the same salvation but they are not part of either the Church or Israel.

Well, God said Israel has been blinded. Rom.11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. " The elect at this time are part of the church. They are not part of national Israel. This is what I have been saying.

All of those Jews today who reject Jesus Christ are the Israel who is blinded. Only the elect believe and they are part of the Church.

Quantrill

dragonfly said:
Hi Quantrill,

In further support of the opening comments in my post # 51 on p2 of this thread, here are some verses which show 'the land' being referred to separately from 'the people' who are called 'Israel'.

2 Kings 17:1 In the twelfth year of Ahaz king of Judah began Hoshea the son of Elah to reign in Samaria over Israel nine years.

5 Then the king of Assyria came up throughout all the land, and went up to Samaria, and besieged it three years.

6 In the ninth year of Hoshea the king of Assyria took Samaria, and carried Israel away into Assyria...'

7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the Lord their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, 8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the Lord cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made. 9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the Lord their God, and they...'

Now, this I will give you - that the Lord had arranged for the tribes of Israel to be apportioned the land - but this I will not give you ... that the land was ever called 'Israel' separately from the people. All through these dealings, it is clear that when God is speaking to 'Israel', He is speaking to 'the people', not 'the land'. God's 'inheritance' is His people. The people can only 'inherit the land' 'forever' if they obey Him and cleave to righteousness. This fact is repeated time and again throughout the Old Testament. Israel the people do not have a land inheritance separate, or apart from, their relationship with God. If they are following idolatry or some other man-made religion, they are excluded.... by God Himself.

19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the Lord their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. 20 And the Lord rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. 21 For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the Lord, and made them sin a great sin. 22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them; 23 Until the Lord removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land [which was by then being called Samaria] to Assyria unto this day.

Ezekiel 11:17

" Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord God; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered and I will give you the land of Israel. "

Quantrill

Retrobyter · Feb 11, 2014

Shalom, brothers.

Actually, "Isra'el" means "he is a prince with God." It's a name given to Ya`aqov by the One who wrestled with him all night long!

Genesis 32:24-28
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
KJV

This is a "prince" like we use the word "winner!" If the One didn't throw Ya`aqov's hip out of socket, the battle might have lasted longer. As it was, Ya`aqov was not willing to stop. It was the ONE with whom Ya`aqov wrestled who called an end to the wrestling match (possibly to keep Ya`aqov from hurting himself any farther)! The One said, "Let me go; it's getting light out." Ya`aqov said, "I won't let you go until you kneel to me ('bless me'). (Hebrew: beerakhtaaniy)," i.e., "I won't let you go until you say 'Uncle!'" So, the One asked him, "What's your name?" He answered, "Trickster." The One said, "Your name shall no longer be 'Trickster,' but 'He-is-a-Winner-with-God' because you have been a winner with God and with men, and you've won!"
OT:1288 baarakh (baw-rakh'); a primitive root; to kneel; by implication to bless God (as an act of adoration), and (vice-versa) man (as a benefit); also (by euphemism) to curse (God or the king, as treason):
KJV - abundantly, altogether, at all, blaspheme, bless, congratulate, curse, greatly, indeed, kneel (down), praise, salute, still, thank.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The Hebrew name is "Yisraa'eel," spelled yod-chireq-sin-shva-reish-qamets-alef-tsere-lamed. (The italicized "letters" are actually vowel pointing.) The name breaks down like this:

Yi- = he-[is]
SRaa = a-prince
'eeL = [with]-God

OT:3478 Yisraa'eel (yis-raw-ale'); from OT:8280 and OT:410; he will rule as God; Jisrael, a symbolical name of Jacob; also (typically) of his posterity:
KJV - Israel.

OT:8280 saaraah (saw-raw'); a primitive root; to prevail:
KJV - have power (as a prince).

OT:410 'eel (ale); shortened from OT:352; strength; as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):
KJV - God (god), goodly, great, idol, might (-y one), power, strong. Compare names in "-el."

OT:352 'ayil (ah'-yil); from the same as OT:193; properly, strength; hence, anything strong; specifically a chief (politically); also a ram (from his strength); a pilaster (as a strong support); an oak or other strong tree:
KJV - mighty (man), lintel, oak, post, ram, tree.

OT:193 'uwl (ool); from an unused root meaning to twist, i.e. (by implication) be strong; the body (as being rolled together); also powerful:
KJV - mighty, strength.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

It does NOT mean "Salvation!" Where'd you get THAT idea?!

Secondly, veteran is correct regarding "the chosen seed" = "the elect." It's odd how some believers today think they are on some kind of "higher plane" than the believers written about in the Tanakh (the OT) were! Have you forgotten all your old Sunday School teachers' lessons about the saints in the Tanakh?! These were men and women who believed God, just as did Avraham, and it was counted to them for righteousness! So said David (Psalm 40), other psalmists (Psalms 44 and 106) and the author of the book of Hebrews (chapter 11)! They believed in a coming Messiah, and they needed a blood sacrifice, just as we do today. The ONLY difference is that we now know they are one in the same and we now know who the Messiah was/is, and they didn't know who He would be!

Finally, Quantrill, I will ask you these questions: Was the Messiah Yeshua` a son (descendant) of David? Was David a son of Y'hudah (Judah)? Was Y'hudah a literal son of Isra'el? Are you a member of the body of the Messiah? Then, aren't you a member of the Son of David, Y'hudah, and Isra'el? Isra'el was a literal son of Yitschaq (Isaac), and Yitschaq was a literal son of Avraham. By being a son of Isra'el, it makes you no less a son of Avraham! The point is not whose son we are; the point is that we are in the mishpachah! The FAMILY! What was so special about this mishpachah?

Romans 3:1-2
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed THE ORACLES OF GOD.
KJV

Ephesians 2:11-22
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV

Hebrews 3:1-6
3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
KJV

I might also say, which came first, the chicken or the egg? In Matthew 12:4; 21:13; Mark 2:26; 11:17; Luke 6:4; 11:51; 19:46; John 2:16, 17; and Acts 7:47 and 49, the Temple (or the Tabernacle) is called the "house of God," using the same Greek words as in the following verse. Why doesn't it mean the Temple in this passage?

1 Timothy 3:13
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
KJV

Consider Stephen's argument:

Acts 7:33-40
33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.
34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.
35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
36 He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received THE LIVELY ORACLES to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,
40 Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.
KJV

The following is what is meant by the "oracles" of God:

NT:3051 logion (log'-ee-on); neuter of NT:3052; an utterance (of God):
KJV - oracle.

NT:3052 logios (log'-ee-os); from NT:3056; fluent, i.e. an orator:
KJV - eloquent.

NT:3056 logos (log'-os); from NT:3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):
KJV - account, cause, communication, concerning, doctrine, fame, have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, speaker, speech, talk, thing, none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, both the words "church" and "house of God" were used for "the children of Isra'el" and "the Temple," respectively. I'm suggesting to you that there is MORE connection between believers in the Tanakh (the OT) and the B'rit Chadashah (the NT) than many modern Christians accept!

Questor · Feb 13, 2014

Retrobyter said:
Shalom, guysmith.

Good! I'm glad you noticed this! The "gospel of the kingdom" is simply the "good news about the Kingdom!" What good news?

Isaiah 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV

Both Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) and Yeshua` (Jesus) were heralding (Greek: keerussoon = "to herald as a town crier" translated as "preach") this gospel at the very beginning of Yeshua`s official offer of that Kingdom (His "ministry")!

NT:2784 keerussoo (kay-roos'-so); of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel):
KJV - preacher (-er), proclaim, publish.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Matthew 4:23-25
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
KJV

Matthew 9:35-36
35 And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people.
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
KJV

Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV

This is NOT the "gospel" that is taught and believed today! Most think the definition of the "gospel" is 1 Corinthians 15:1-4:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
KJV

That's an error, because this passage is NOT a definition! Verses 3 and 4 are EXTENSIONS to the gospel! The key is in the title "Christ," the Anglicized form of the Greek "Christos," which in turn is the translation of the Hebrew title "Mashiach" or as it has been transliterated into English through Greek and Latin, "Messiah." This is a Hebrew word meaning "Anointed One," but it refers specifically in prophetic passages to the ONE who was anointed to be KING as God's Representative!

It's most interesting that in the account of Mark 1:14-15, Yeshua` gives NO explanation for what He was talking about! It was NOT about His "death, burial, and resurrection," because few at that time knew Him to be the Messiah let alone believed that the Messiah was supposed to die, and they didn't even SUSPECT that He would come back to life! Consider Kefa's (Peter's) words much LATER:

Matthew 16:20-22
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
KJV

And Kefa was just voicing the way ALL the disciples felt! Remember after the transfiguration?

Mark 9:9-10
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the "rising from the dead" should mean.
KJV

As I've said many times before in other threads, "salvation" doesn't mean what most people think it means, especially in prophetic passages! It's not a word that is talking about gaining personal acceptance from God! It's about RESCUE! And, in particular, this is talking about the rescue of the Hebrew people when they are threatened by their neighboring nations!

Many will use Romans 10:13 as part of the "Romans Road to Salvation":

Romans 10:13
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

But, look at the surrounding context and look at the context from whence it was quoted!

Romans 10:13-15
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
KJV

Verse 15 is a quote from Isaiah 52:7 above, and verse 13 is a quote from Joel 2:32:

Joel 2:23-3:2
23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.
24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil.
25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.
26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the Lord come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
3 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
KJV

So, "salvation" is God's DELIVERANCE of His people Isra'el, particularly Judah and Jerusalem! It is their RESCUE that Yeshua` will perform when He comes again in the Second Coming or the Second Advent!

This is something that many Christians don't understand and thus they misinterpret Yochanan's (John's) words when he sent some of his disciples to Yeshua` to ask Him,

Matthew 11:2-3
2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, "Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?"
KJV

Yochanan was not "losing faith" or "doubting" in any way! See, the rabbis had long discussed the Messianic prophecies even before Yeshua` came the first time. All the prophecies about the Messiah seem to fit into two very different camps, a suffering and dying Messiah (that they called "haMashiach ben Yosef" or "the Messiah son of Joseph") and a conquering and reigning Messiah (that they called "haMashiach ben Daviyd" or "the Messiah son of David). "The Messiah son of Joseph" does not refer to Mary's "Joseph," but to the "Joseph" who suffered at the hands of his brothers, was sold into slavery, and wound up in a prison in Egypt. He was the "son of Joseph" as in FOLLOWING THE PATTERN of Joseph. Some rabbis actually believed that there would be TWO Messiahs, each one fulfilling his respective set of prophecies.

So, because the Jews had rejected the herald (Yochanan) and was in the process of rejecting the Messiah Yeshua`, Yochanan (John) was saying to Him, "I can see that you are Messiah the Son of Joseph. Are you also the Messiah that should come, i.e., Messiah the Son of David, or should we look for another Messiah?"

Yeshua` answered him by performing the miracles that the Messiah Son of David was to perform. And, that settled the matter for both Yochanan and his disciples. Yeshua` showed him that He was ONE Messiah with TWO comings! There was no doubt in Yochanan's question; he was simply seeking clarification!

So, back to the gospel of the Kingdom: Yeshua` didn't HAVE to explain what that "gospel of the Kingdom" was! They READ ABOUT IT EVERY YEAR! Every year the Jews would read through the Torah (the first five books of the Bible - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy - that they called "Beresheet," "Shmowt," "Vayikraa," "Bmidbar," and "Dvariym"). In the additional readings (the Haftarah) from other books of the Tanakh (the Old Testament), every 4 Elul (this last year that occurred on August 10) they would read Isaiah 51:12-52:12! They would read and study and discuss this portion of the Scriptures for a week! So, all Yeshua` had to do was say, "The time has come, God's Kingdom is within your grasp, repent (turn around 180 degrees) and believe the good news!"

Just as J. R. R. Tolkien wrote,...

And some things that should not have been forgotten were lost. History became legend. Legend became myth. And for two and a half thousand years, the Ring passed out of all knowledge.
— Lady Galadriel, Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring

... in the same way, the Jews had become calloused to the prophecies! They had NEGLECTED and FORGOTTEN the REALITY behind them! Thus, they were NOT READY when Yeshua` came on the scene! Therefore, they had to be washed in the mikvah of the Yarden River (baptism was originally a JEWISH cleansing ritual) and REMINDED through the teachings of Yochanan and Yeshua`.

This has been a lot of information, but hopefully it won't be too overwhelming.

P.S. - I should have mentioned that it is THIS "gospel of the Kingdom" to which Yeshua` was referring in Matthew 24:14. Therefore, it has barely BEGUN to be heralded! And, if this is what we must see come to pass before "the end can come," then we've got some work to do!

THIS IS TERRIFIC! Thank you for bringing this clarification...it is crucial!!!

Q

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