A debate thread.

And what's the point to debate a reality?Jag

(wildxx;21390)
Would anyone care to debate about Christianity?
What would you like to debate?

(wildxx;21390)
Would anyone care to debate about Christianity?
Is it necessary to debate the truth?

Okay, I'll try to bring a little more depth into this debate.What is truth? How do you define truth. How do you know the Bible is Truth.Let's debate about the different denominations. We have enough of them. Why can't we agree? Who's right? How do we know?Is the Bible the infallible, inerrant, literal word of God? Or has it just been inspired by God, and flawed by man? Is it still "sharp as a two-edged sword, that can cut through bone and marrow? and divide the heart?" As you can see, most of these are already topics in this forum, or on these forums in general.So you're going to have to be more specific on this one. And for this to be a debate, we're going to need more than, "is there any point to debate a reality" I mean, how do you know for sure it's a reality? What makes you think that? What i'm trying to get at is, back yourself up.

(ps77;21765)
Okay, I'll try to bring a little more depth into this debate.What is truth? How do you define truth. How do you know the Bible is Truth.Let's debate about the different denominations. We have enough of them. Why can't we agree? Who's right? How do we know?Is the Bible the infallible, inerrant, literal word of God? Or has it just been inspired by God, and flawed by man? Is it still "sharp as a two-edged sword, that can cut through bone and marrow? and divide the heart?" As you can see, most of these are already topics in this forum, or on these forums in general.So you're going to have to be more specific on this one. And for this to be a debate, we're going to need more than, "is there any point to debate a reality" I mean, how do you know for sure it's a reality? What makes you think that? What i'm trying to get at is, back yourself up.
God has no need for denominations. Denominations is like a seperate religion on it's own, created by men.Rely and trust on Him, not on denominations. (James 1:26) Let God do the interpreting, not the men. (Proverbs 3:5-7, Psalm 118:8)Jag

1.What is truth? How do you define truth. How do you know the Bible is TruthGods Word because it never contradicts itself,tells past,present and future correctly has all the wisdom of God.2.Let's debate about the different denominations. We have enough of them. Why can't we agree? Who's right? How do we know?Gods word has no denominations these are inventions of men for men Gods Word is the same for all Men. Men can make a religion out of rock doesnt make it right or true there is no correct denomination there is only the state of your heart/soul accepting Christ as your savior.3. Is the Bible the infallible, inerrant, literal word of God? Or has it just been inspired by God, and flawed by man? Is it still "sharp as a two-edged sword, that can cut through bone and marrow? and divide the heart?" YES, If you learn what it says and dont listen to men

Gods Word because it never contradicts itself,tells past,present and future correctlyhas all the wisdom of God.
There are most certainly contradictions in the Bible. (see quoted text below) It has the wisdom of God through man, does it not? It is inspired by God, but that's just it. Inspired is the key word. That doesn't mean that it's false now, I'm not saying that.(a guy on another christian forum)
Alright, let me grab a helmet and some armor before I tackle this because I know I'm gonna get attacked......I believe that the Word of God has been in the hands of men, flawed, sinful human beings.........I cannot say that the word is complete because we know that there are other writings and that the decision of what would be canonized came from the Catholic Church, since I take MAJOR issue with much of what the Catholic church teaches why would I assume that they made correct decisions in this particular area? as to inerrant, infallible....well, there are too many direct contradictions for me to say that the word as we know it is inerrant and infallible.....like what? so glad you asked......GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.ORDER CONTRADICTED BY:GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.CONTRADICTED BY:GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded NoahPRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.SEEMS TO CONTRADICT:ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.AND1 Cor.1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.CONTRADICTS:CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at JerusalemGEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.SEEMS TO CONTRADICT:GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof****and as long as we are in Genesis:Gen 2:18 ¶ And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him .....and so when no help meet is found among the animals he goes on to make woman....what????Ps.92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."CONTRADICTS:Isa.57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heartMatt.27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."CONTRADICTS:Luke23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."WHICH CONTRADICTS:John19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghostII SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?CONTRADICTS:I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destryed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;God CAN be seen:"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (Ex. 33:23)"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (Ex. 33:11)"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (Gen. 32:30)God CANNOT be seen:"No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:1Cool"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (Ex. 33:20)"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1 Tim. 6:16)And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (Gen 22:1)CONTRADICTS:"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (James 1:13)"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (Matt. 27:5)SPEAKING OF JUDAS, CONTRADICTS:"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (Acts 1:1CoolAnd Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)CONTRADICTS:"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (John 3:13)MAT 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.MAT 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.MAT 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.MAT 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.MAT 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.MAT 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.MAT 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.MAT 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.MAT 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.DOESN'T MATCH UP WITH:LUK 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.LUK 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.LUK 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.LUK 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophetsKI1 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;AGREES WITH:CH2 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;AGREES WITHRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?AGREES WITH:ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.AGREES WITH:JO1 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.JO1 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.JO1 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.CONTRADICTS:JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.OR IS IT.....PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.SA2 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.CONTRADICTS:SA2 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.CONTRADICTS:ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)CONTRADICTS:Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."Mat 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.CONTRADICTS:Jhn 19:2 And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put [it] on his head, and they put on him a purple robeMar 15:23 And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received [it] not.CONRTRADICTS:Mat 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted [thereof], he would not drink
Now, some of those I can defend as not contradictory, but others.. and there are other examples..
Gods word has no denominations these are inventions of men for men Gods Word is the same for all Men. Men can make a religion out of rock doesnt make it right or true there is no correct denomination there is only the state of your heart/soul accepting Christ as your savior.
My point about the denominations was that they're all reading the Bible. And a lot of them are in the state of accepting Christ as their savior, it's just that they disagree on other issues. I mean, orginally there was the followers of Christ. and the Pharisees, who believed Jesus was blaspheming God. The followers of Christ proceed to argue, and find themselves in discord with other followers of Christ, and they separate. This continues. Originally we can trace ourselves to the initial state of believing Jesus is Christ, but there's so much else that we disagree on, how do we know who's right?
YES, If you learn what it says and dont listen to men
So you're saying I should read it for myself, and get what I get out of it, and that's it.Isn't that what Christianity is doing now? Various beliefs form from people disagreeing with, or not listening to other people. People agree with them, and great, we have ourselves a new denomination.Should I take your advice and not listen to you?Reading it for myself and not listening to men is probably not sound advice. Or is it?I could read something wrong, take it out of context. Agree with the wrong people.But wait, how do we know who's right? Depending on who you ask, the answer to that question varies.

Ever read Matthew 4:1-11 and Luke 4:1-13. Clearly God does not lie. Neither will He anyway.I can admit this. All Modern perVersions contradicts themselves...Why? Cause they use the Alexandrian Texts. I'll stick with a bible that uses the Byzantine Texts. God's Words can not contradict themselves. But men always will continue to contradict themselves, not God.Jag

Im not going to explain the whole bible to you Ps77 but it is as Jag said we learn from the KJV the Hebrew and manuscripts I repeat there is no contradictions in Gods word if mans translations make appear there is it is the translation that is in error not God. Men read one thing and make a religion out of it there is still no denomination in Gods word if men claim there is its their mistake. Not Gods, God can not be held responsiable for men failing to understand his Words. If you think there is a contradiction you are not understanding it right.

Clearly God does not lie. Neither will He anyway.
Yes, exactly. But what effect does that have on us and our view of the Bible. As Inerrant, Infallible and Literal? God wouldn't lie, that would be contrary to God's nature. But man can screw up, and do screw up. So it's possible somewhere along the lines, we've messed up.I still believe in the general message of the Bible. It's historically correct, it's just that there are small details that bring up so much debate and conflict within the church.
God's Words can not contradict themselves.
Yes, exactly, but we have to be careful there. Because if God's words cannot contradict themselves, what does that say about the words of the Bible (Which in general aren't in contradiction, don't get me wrong, it's just there are some smaller areas, well actually, the order of creation is messed up, so that's pretty big. but we get the idea, it doesn't matter so much in what order God created, was it animals first, or plants, or rain? I mean, the idea is that he created the earth.) I think it's key to stress the word Inspired by the words of God. I hope I'm making sense.

(ps77;21784)
(thesuperjag;21781)
Clearly God does not lie. Neither will He anyway.
Yes, exactly. But what effect does that have on us and our view of the Bible. As Inerrant, Infallible and Literal? God wouldn't lie, that would be contrary to God's nature. But man can screw up, and do screw up. So it's possible somewhere along the lines, we've messed up.I still believe in the general message of the Bible. It's historically correct, it's just that there are small details that bring up so much debate and conflict within the church.(thesuperjag;21781)
God's Words can not contradict themselves.
Yes, exactly, but we have to be careful there. Because if God's words cannot contradict themselves, what does that say about the words of the Bible (Which in general aren't in contradiction, don't get me wrong, it's just there are some smaller areas, well actually, the order of creation is messed up, so that's pretty big. but we get the idea, it doesn't matter so much in what order God created, was it animals first, or plants, or rain? I mean, the idea is that he created the earth.) I think it's key to stress the word Inspired by the words of God. I hope I'm making sense.On the highlighting one, If men wants to take everything literal in the bible, then it's their way of thinking and it does contradict because it was on man's thinking. There are way too many symbolic in the bible.To say on Genesis 3 there was a talking snake...then go read Ezekiel 28, Either we have a beautiful, perfect, yet fallen angel in the garden of Eden, or a snake.Serpent, dragons, fowls of the air, King of Tyrus, man of sin etc... they are all titles for that falllen angel (Satan) Not a form to take on.We must learn on God's wisdom, not our own wisdom...In fact, I'll give you an advice.Literal understanding, Spiritual understanding, and the Essence, these three are one.Jag

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiimDear Kriss, can you explain this 2 verses ?"And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. (Genesis 20:12)""Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen. (Deuteronomy 27:22)"Thank you for your explaination.Wallahu a'lam.

Also, the order of creation is different in Genesis 2.same bible thats not a translation thing between KJV and NIV, thats the same bible.

(ps77;21797)
Also, the order of creation is different in Genesis 2.same bible thats not a translation thing between KJV and NIV, thats the same bible.
Seperated events between Genesis 1:26-28 and Genesis 2:7, Genesis 2:21-23KJV are NIV are not the same bible.Jag

If we go back to the early Christians, we need to ask ourselves: how did God instruct & feed his people spiritually prior to the canonization of the Bible? When we consider Christian history, it's fairly recent that Christians were able to own their own Bibles - they just weren't available and besides, most people couldn't read. It makes no sense to me that "read the Bible ourselves & figure it out" would have been God's plan for us to know Him & grow in our faith since that was impossible for the vast majority of His followers throughout the Christian Church.

the plan was hear/listen to the word we were supposed to have Pastors(teachers) to help us with the deeper things of Gods word however today they have failed they just want to teach the easy quick things of Repetance and salvation and teach lies like a rapture theory to avoid having to understand and teach things like Rev. its easier to say oh you wont be here do not worry about it. LIES fast food religion.And Gods says these ministers,preachers,teachers that lead his sheep astray will be among the first judged

I agree with you Kriss 100%. Today, there is truly so many lost sheep, yet the sheep listens to the wolves. The bible clearly says that there will be a falling away. (II Thessalonians 2:3) The bible never says it is REQUIRED to listen to a pastor. If it was, then there would be more and more deceiving. To sum it up...John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.Psalm 118:8 - It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.Jag

(kriss;21827)
the plan was hear/listen to the word we were supposed to have Pastors(teachers) to help us with the deeper things of Gods word however today they have failed they just want to teach the easy quick things of Repetance and salvation and teach lies like a rapture theory to avoid having to understand and teach things like Rev. its easier to say oh you wont be here do not worry about it. LIES fast food religion.And Gods says these ministers,preachers,teachers that lead his sheep astray will be among the first judged
So, because God guided those individuals (early Christians) through the power of the Holy Spirit without the Bible, it sounds as though he worked through the Church, correct? Does it make sense then that He might still guide through a Chruch - rather than leaving us all on our own to figure it out? Because when two people disagree about a particular verse or interpretation & both are filled with the Holy Spirit - who is correct? They can't both be right. It just seems like a very bad plan & totally ineffective to leave it up to individuals to decide what is "truth" by themselves. Jesus prayed that his followers would be unified - not divided by our own opnions.