Exactly! Amen!Angelina said:Indeed...some are just not being honest with their struggle against sin....
Hebrews 12
3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.
4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
If we were instantly sinless when we received Jesus as Lord and savior, we would not need to be Chastised...now would we? :huh:
I believe one who deliberately sins in not a Christian.
- Thread starter Giver
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
[SIZE=16pt]Know this, if he or she sin, he or she is of the devil. Calvin, and Luther believed everyone sinned. Then they were one of everyone. So the told us they were of the devil.[/SIZE]Dodo_David said:
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:8) “[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Scripture says if one sins he or she are of the devil and scripture says if one sins he or she has never seen God not knows God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 John 3:4-6) “Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]So again Calvin, Luther, or any of the Reformers could not have known God, because they all sinned. If they were not sinners then they would have preached that a Christian does not sin.[/SIZE]
According to your logic, the Apostle Paul could not have known God after he became an Apostle, because in Romans 7, he clearly says that his flesh continued to sin although his mind didn't want any continuation of sin.Giver said:
[SIZE=16pt]Paul in Romans seven was telling people how impossible it was for one to not sin. He was telling them that no matter what they did they could not defeat Satan/sin.[/SIZE]Dodo_David said:
[SIZE=16pt]Then Paul in Romans eight tells people just how much Jesus came and did for us.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Paul explains in Romans eight that Jesus gave us his Holy Spirit, who would teach us to live God’s word. Also he would give us the grace to defeat Satan/sin.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]It is such a shame that people only read Romans seven. Those people never come to understand that God gave us a way to defeat Satan/sin.[/SIZE]
Romans 7 is still in the Bible, and in it, the Apostle Paul explains that, after becoming an Apostle, his flesh continued to sin even though his mind did not want any continuance of sinning.Giver said:
[SIZE=16pt]If that was the truth then Paul lied in Romans eight. [/SIZE]Dodo_David said:
[SIZE=16pt]How do you know Paul was talking about himself after he became an apostle?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]You need to see that Paul was explaining just how impossible it was to not sin, before Jesus gave us his Holy Spirit.[/SIZE]
Giver said:
In Romans 7, Paul is talking about himself in the present tense . . . and no, he doesn't lie in Romans 8, because he doesn't say in that chapter what you claim he says.
In the latter chapter, he is comparing those people who set their minds on the flesh to those people who set their minds on the Spirit.
A person's mind can be set on the Spirit while the person's flesh commits a sin. That is what Paul is saying about himself in chapter 7.
[SIZE=16pt]You want to believe Paul was talking about himself in Romans seven in the present tense, and this is the same Paul the said the following.[/SIZE]Dodo_David said:
[SIZE=large](1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Romans 8: 4) “He did this in order that the law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the Spirit dictates.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=large]Do you believe the Holy Spirit dictates some one to sin? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The Holy Spirit dictates for one to live the whole Word of
God, and to live the whole Word of God one will not sin. [/SIZE]
It doesn't really matter if Paul was speaking in present or past tense. That verse in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 is the same one that Phil Robertson quoted that got him fired by A&E... The Duck Dynasty star paraphrased the verse and said homosexuals would not inherit the kingdom of God. You and he are correct, but what you omit is forgiveness. Many Christians are guilty of committing some of those offenses, but do you believe they will be held accountable come judgement day even if they have repented? I believe that those who knowingly sin and who never come to repentance are in danger of perishing, but forgiveness is available to all who repent. God repeatedly promises to blot out sins; Isaiah 43:25, Isaiah 44:22, Micah 7:19, Jeremiah 31:34, Hebrews 8:12, Hebrews 10:16-17, Acts 3:19, etc. So there you have it, its not just sin equals death, its sin+forgiveness=salvation.Giver said:
"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthian 6:9-10) - NIV
Peter sinned, and this led Barnabas and others to sin also:
But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before some people came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews joined him in his hypocrisy; so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they didn’t walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do? (Galatians 2:11-14)
This did not mean Peter and the rest were not saved. Another example is the church in Corinthian who had much sin (some even worse than unbelievers!), and yet were saved (1 Corinthians 1:2,4-9).
Christians do sin (1 John 1:8), but there is still no condemnation (Romans 7:25-8:1).
However, I do believe God intends us to live without sin. This can only come about by walking in submission to the Holy Spirit. This is the point of Romans 6-8. Chapter 6 is about how God intends us to live. Chapter 7 shows this way to be impossible in our own power. Chapter 8 reveals God's solution to living the way He wants us to live: by relying on the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:4). Living a sinless life, therefore, is not a matter of trying to keep the Law, but of continually walking in submission to the Holy Spirit. I know of no one who does so all the time, but some come very close - and sin is not evident in their lives.
But when Peter came to Antioch, I resisted him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before some people came from James, he ate with the Gentiles. But when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. And the rest of the Jews joined him in his hypocrisy; so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. But when I saw that they didn’t walk uprightly according to the truth of the Good News, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live as the Gentiles do, and not as the Jews do, why do you compel the Gentiles to live as the Jews do? (Galatians 2:11-14)
This did not mean Peter and the rest were not saved. Another example is the church in Corinthian who had much sin (some even worse than unbelievers!), and yet were saved (1 Corinthians 1:2,4-9).
Christians do sin (1 John 1:8), but there is still no condemnation (Romans 7:25-8:1).
However, I do believe God intends us to live without sin. This can only come about by walking in submission to the Holy Spirit. This is the point of Romans 6-8. Chapter 6 is about how God intends us to live. Chapter 7 shows this way to be impossible in our own power. Chapter 8 reveals God's solution to living the way He wants us to live: by relying on the power of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:4). Living a sinless life, therefore, is not a matter of trying to keep the Law, but of continually walking in submission to the Holy Spirit. I know of no one who does so all the time, but some come very close - and sin is not evident in their lives.
[SIZE=large]Yes Peter sinned before receiving the Holy Spirit. After one comes to the knowledge of the truth, and deliberately commits a sin there no longer is forgiveness for such a person.[/SIZE]AndyBern said:
[SIZE=16pt](Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies.[/SIZE] Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
[SIZE=16pt]My understanding is that very few people have allowed God to teach him or her about him.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]Scripture says only God can teach one to know God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man,[/SIZE] and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually.[SIZE=16pt] A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.” [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]The only way one can come to the knowledge of the truth is to have God personally teach him or her.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]My understanding of one who has accepted Jesus as his or her savior, and has been baptized in his name, but still sins is an infant in Christ. That is what Paul said in the following verse.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](1 Corinthians 3:1-3) “Brothers, I myself was unable to speak to you as people of the Spirit; I treated you as sensual men, still infants in Christ. What I fed you with was milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it; and indeed, you are still not ready for it since you are still unspiritual. Isn’t that obvious from all the jealousy and wrangling that there is among you, from the way that you go on behaving like ordinary people?”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt]People who have yet to become spiritual will be judged under the Law that is my understanding, which I believe the following verse confirms. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=16pt](Galations 5:13-26)[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]”[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]For you were called for freedom, brothers.[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]one another through love. For the whole law[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]is fulfilled in one statement, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another. I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh.[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy,[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ [Jesus] have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires[/SIZE]. [SIZE=16pt] If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spir[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt]it[/SIZE][SIZE=16pt].[/SIZE] [SIZE=16pt]Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.” [/SIZE]
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
Most translations don't contain the word "never". But no matter; that's notGiver said:
my focus.
1Cor 6:9-10 is very popular with the anti-OSAS crowd and they wield it like a
silver bullet. However; though Paul says that the unrighteous shall not
inherit the kingdom of God, nor fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards,
nor revilers, nor swindlers: according to Jesus, believers who commit those
kinds of sins are in absolutely no danger of going to hell.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe
in God who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for
their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
Jesus' "have" verb is grammatically present tense; so then believers have
eternal life right now-- no delay and no waiting period.
What's so hot about eternal life? Well; for one thing, according to 1John 1:1-
2, eternal life is an infinite kind of life; ergo: it's impervious to death, decay,
and the aging process. So then, people who have eternal life are impervious
to the wages of sin.
†. Rom 6:23 . . The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in
Christ Jesus our Lord.
So, if believers are impervious to the wages of sin, and in no danger of being
condemned for their sins; then 1Cor 6:9-10 is obviously just a bit trickier than
the anti-OSAS crowd is aware.
Buen Camino
/
[SIZE=large]Personally I don’t have an agenda for sharing what Jesus has taught me.[/SIZE]lforrest said:
[SIZE=large]I believe Jesus wanted my sharing to let people know that their walk with Jesus was not even close to his will.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=large]A Christian walks as Jesus walked, and I ask how many people do you know, who believe themselves to be Christians, walk as Jesus walked?[/SIZE]
(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”
[SIZE=large]Jesus gave his people a way to defeat Satan/sin, and the grace to walk as he walked. [/SIZE]
Jesus was a friend of tax collectors and sinners. He forgave a woman who was caught in adultery. He walked full of grace, mercy, and truth. He loved everyone He encountered. The only people He had issues with were the self righteous. Is this the walk you are referring to?Giver said:
As well, He healed people everywhere He went. He multiplied loaves and fishes. He walked on water. Is this the walk you are referring to? Give those a try for a while and then maybe preach it.
It's funny that you should quote a verse that is just 5 verses after the one where John told his readers that if we sin we have an advocate with the Father (1John2:1). This is not paper covers rock. The bible is not to be used to make one verse trump another one.
How one is succeeding in this walk is not meant to be the determining factor in his eternal destiny. The only factor is humility and faith. The life we live as Christians will be judged by Jesus and works will be rewarded and others burned. But even so..."he himself will be saved".
You have no agenda? You are the first. But agenda is not the problem. Doctrine is. There are many places in new covenant scripture that exhort us to walk righteously. But it is a doctrinal mistake to connect these with the requirement for salvation.
What kind of covenant is this, that apparently by grace gives us the ability to walk in righteousness, so that we can then be saved by works? No, that is the error. The requirement does not revert back to works. Why? "so that no man can boast".
The idea that salvation can be of works and at the same time being in such a way that no man can boast, is not out of the question. Here is how it happens: Rom.5 states that because it was the disobedience of one man that put the human race into the sinful condition, then it is also through the works (obedience) of One Man that many are made righteous. That chapter, in my translation, calls both life and righteousness a free gift. They are free to us because of the obedience of Jesus and because of His sacrifice. If I were you I would think twice about undermining that which gives Him the glory, by adding our works into the arena for justification. It is not what He does through us that saves us. It is what He did FOR us.
If you prefer to continue to trump Rom.10:9,10, I will continue to quote more passages that will easily refute your idea about how to tell who a Christian is. (which I doubt was your idea in the first place. I assume you are sharing that which you have been taught in your church)
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
The word "never" is obviously an error in translation seeing as how Paul went on to sayGiver said:
in verse 11 that some of the washed, sanctified, and justified Corinthians were among
the very sinners condemned by what he had only just said to them.
Buen Camino
/
I don't believe I would ever opt out for an error in translation because I don't understand something in the Scripture or because it appears contridictory.Webers_Home said:
Those described in 1Cor. 6:9-10 will not inherit the Kingdom. That is a truth.
Verse 11 says, "And such were some of you". Meaning they were not that anymore because they had been washed, justified, and sanctified.
Quantrill
Similar threads
