What required for going to Heaven?

williemac · Feb 4, 2014

Paul did not talk about a mindset? Apparently you did not bother to read Rom.7, or consider the mindset mentioned in Rom.8:

IBeMe said:
"covenant of faith" isn't in the Bible.

.

I agree. We are in a covenant of grace. Faith is merely the means by which we access God's grace. I merely used my own figure of speech in speaking of the new covenant, in which our part of the covenant is faith and love.

Under the old covenant of law, if a person should stumble on any one point, he would be guilty of all (James 2:10). This is your position. You preach the same intolerance that the law preaches. But we are not under the law in regards to covenant with God. Therefore whatever commands we are given do not demand flawless moral perfection. There is room for man's imperfection in this covenant.

If you don't think that we are in a covenant of grace, then please explain the existence of Rom.ch.5 in the bible.

As well, in Rom.3:19,20, we read...." Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may become guilty before God" Therefore by the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight. For by the law is the knowledge of sin".

Unfortunately, in the covenant you describe, the knowledge if sin is alive and flourishing. You do not call that a covenant of law? You seem to insist in pouring guilt upon your brothers and sisters. Where's the grace? Where's the sacrifice of Jesus, who is our advocate?

The sacrifice of Jesus in your understanding, is weaker and inferior to that of the blood of bulls and goats. Those kept the people in good standing before God. But in your idea of this covenant, our obedience to commands is what keeps us in good standing. I can scarcely believe that you do not connect this with justification by works, rather than by faith. I can scarcely believe that you have any idea why Paul wrote to the Galatians. But maybe you have no interest in studying that letter.

You or anyone can promote obedience to moral commands all day long, and I won't be your opponent in that.....unless you connect that with justification for life. Then justification by faith is out the window and you have offended the covenant of grace, as the Galatians did. It is the old testament law that is zero tolerant. As soon as anyone brings zero tolerance into this covenant, he is in error.

Since we know that the gift of life is a one time gift and cannot be repeated (Heb.6:1-6) and we know that the seed of Abraham is innumerable, I would say that it takes a lot more than what you describe as intolerable, to lose what God has freely given.

IBeMe · Feb 4, 2014

williemac: ...

It's quite simple!

If you love Jesus, then you'll do what He says...

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

If you don't, then you won't...

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Jesus has great plans for His friends...

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

.

aspen · Feb 4, 2014

And belief in a literal creation, as described in Genesis, right?

williemac · Feb 6, 2014

aspen said:
And belief in a literal creation, as described in Genesis, right?

With all due respect, each thread has its own subject.

IBeMe said:
It's quite simple!

If you love Jesus, then you'll do what He says...

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

If you don't, then you won't...

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Jesus has great plans for His friends...

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

.

It seems to me that you don't realize how you contradict yourself. The quote you most often give is this one: " If you want to enter into life, then keep the commandments"

But who was He speaking to there? Not His disciples. What He said to them was..." Freely you have received. Freely give"

There are two time frames here; the old covenant and the new covenant. But there is also a third one, which is the transition period from one to the other. This is approximately 33 years.

In John 5:24, Jesus said that whoever believes in God HAS everlasting life....HAS passed from death into life....and will NOT come into judgment.

John 3:36..." He who believes in the Son HAS everlasting lif; and he who does not believe in the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him"..

1John 5:12..." He who has the Son HAS life. And he who does not have the Son does not have life"

Here is the contradiction. Are we still waiting to enter into life, or do we have life? Which is it?

This is all I have ever been trying to say. The works we do are a demonstration of what we have been given by faith...and NOT a program to get something we don't have or keep something we were freely given.

Unfortunately, your replies have suggested both.

So, I am going to get long winded and try to convey how this works.

If we look at life, all of life has one thing in common; reproduction. Without reproduction, life ends. The very first mandate God gave mankind was to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. This is God's mandate for all of life. Jesus once cursed a fig tree because it failed to bear fruit. Fruit carries the seed of life.

In the parable of the talents, we see a man digging a hole and burying his talent. This represents a refusal to bear fruit.

In the case of the original sin of Lucifer, he refused to remain within the context of his God given purpose in his desire and determination to be like God, or to Be God. This was a reversal of roles. God is the giver of life. He is the source of life. In the above examples, God gave the resources to bear fruit. In man's case, we have the sex drive. This is a powerful force in our experience. Failing to reproduce is near impossible. The servants were given the talents as well. According to the master, the unproductive servant could have just put his talent in the bank and let it collect interest all on its own.

The point is..bearing fruit is our mandate. But we are not doing it to achieve life. That would represent a reversal of roles. We cannot produce life. We can only reproduce it. Hence the saying.."freely you have received. freely give"

And here is the truth that seems to escape many people. "fruit happens" . Once life has been given, it is near impossible to bear fruit.

But we can tell when the old covenant is coming into play inappropriately, when we see the suggestion that disqualification will occur even though fruit is happening. Everlasting life has three stages. The first one is the new birth, the second is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the third is the resurrection. We have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7).

The covenant of law disqualified every person born after Adam. It was zero tolerant. Its purpose was to put everyone on an equal basis of needing to be saved. It put everyone on an equal basis of having to humbly receive life a s a free gift. No man can succeed in qualifying for life on the basis of works of law.

So now, are we to accept that the same zero tolerance has now arrived within the confines of the new covenant? By some people's standards and suggestions, they would say apparently so. They see some, or even one sin and somehow believe that the person is disqualified in spite of fruit, even in spite of possible "abundance" of fruit.

To which I say..." if there's anything I can't stand, it's intolerance" ^_^

Sorry to burst a few bubbles, but the new covenant tolerates the bad for the sake of the good. It is a better covenant based on better promises. The bad (body of sin, old man of flesh) will disappear in the resurrection. The good (the new man) will remain, his fruit along with him.
Cheers.

Tropical Islander · Feb 6, 2014

"Here is the contradiction. Are we still waiting to enter into life, or do we have life? Which is it?"

there is no contradiction. Once you have entered life, you WANT to keep His commandments.

If that desire is not on your heart, you do not have life.

Do you have His life?

williemac · Feb 6, 2014

Tropical Islander said:
"Here is the contradiction. Are we still waiting to enter into life, or do we have life? Which is it?"

there is no contradiction. Once you have entered life, you WANT to keep His commandments.

If that desire is not on your heart, you do not have life.

Do you have His life?

If you would have had the opportunity to read over all of my replies on this topic in several threads, you would know that I have never opposed living a moral life, but rather have actually strongly advised it, nor have I ever suggested that sin is ok.

We are not advised to get personal here, but since you asked...I came to the Lord over 30 years ago and was baptized in the Holy Spirit at that time, and have been a deacon for a time, an elder for a time, cell group leader for 13 years and a worship leader for 20 years. I have been studying and debating apologetic issues for years and my main passion is new covenant doctrine.

I have debated and discussed this subject ad nausium for more than a dozen years, during which time I have remained open to correction and open to learning.

So yes, hopefully all of us on this website already have everlasting life and are somewhere along in the process of growing and maturing and bearing fruit along the way. But I will continue to oppose the taking of this process and turning it into nothing more than a burden to save oneself, justify oneself, or earn what they have already been given by jumping hoops of obedience to the law of commandments....thanks for asking.

And BTW, I have shown many many times how the ten commandments that came down from Mount Sinai are part of the law that we are no longer under for justification...." For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to all who believe" (Rom.10:4) " Therefore having been justified by faith we have peace with God" (Rom.5:1)

I have and will continue to gladly examine and consider the objections that come. Because in the end..this is not about me, past expereince and history notwithstanding.

IBeMe · Feb 7, 2014

williemac: " If you want to enter into life, then keep the commandments" But who was He speaking to there? Not His disciples.

You don't have a Bible???

It was someone He called to be His disciple.

... and come and follow me.

In the first place, it doesn't matter.
We're subject to all the words of Jesus.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Why do you try to convince Christians to receiveth not my words???

williemac: It seems to me that you don't realize how you contradict yourself. The quote you most often give is this one: " If you want to enter into life, then keep the commandments"

You got it backwards.

I'm saying to do what Jesus says.
You're saying to ignore what Jesus says.

williemac: There are two time frames here; the old covenant and the new covenant. But there is also a third one, which is the transition period from one to the other. This is approximately 33 years.

Why do you try to contradict the Bible?

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

The words of Jesus, who is the Word of God, is the New Covenant.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Why do you try to convince Christians to receiveth not my words???

williemac: In John 5:24, Jesus said that whoever believes in God HAS everlasting life....HAS passed from death into life....and will NOT come into judgment.

You not only contradict the words of Jesus, you contradict yourself after one paragraph. ... transition period ... This is approximately 33 years.

Since I know that's silly nonsense and you show that you know it is too, we'll proceed.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Great promise that is ours, unless we'd be so foolish to ignore the rest of Jesus's words.

Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

williemac: John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And, above...

And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: ...

But, you're teaching to ignore what He testifieth, claiming his testimony to be third one covenant transition period.

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

You teach the opposite of Jesus...

... Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ...

williemac: Here is the contradiction. Are we still waiting to enter into life, or do we have life? Which is it?

It's always best to look in the Bible for answers, instead of making up things; like; W:" ... old covenant and the new covenant. But there is also a third one, which is the transition period ..."

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, ...

williemac: Unfortunately, your replies have suggested both.

False statement.

Do this and everything will be OK.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Jesus has good plans for His friends...

To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

williemac: And here is the truth that seems to escape many people. "fruit happens" . Once life has been given, it is near impossible to bear fruit.

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

williemac: But we can tell when the old covenant is coming into play inappropriately, when we see the suggestion that disqualification will occur even though fruit is happening.

We can tell when someone is contradicting the words of Jesus.

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

williemac: By some people's standards and suggestions, they would say apparently so. They see some, or even one sin and somehow believe that the person is disqualified in spite of fruit, even in spite of possible "abundance" of fruit.

Jesus; Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

williemac: To which I say..." if there's anything I can't stand, it's intolerance"

hmmmm...

Some kind of special meaning here?

Some do label unacceptance of certain life styles; "intolerance".

williemac: Sorry to burst a few bubbles, but the new covenant tolerates the bad for the sake of the good.

So, you say.

Let's see what Jesus says.

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Why not just do what Jesus says? ... All will be good!

williemac: It is a better covenant based on better promises.

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

williemac: The bad (body of sin, old man of flesh) will disappear in the resurrection. The good (the new man) will remain, his fruit along with him.

Contrary to the Word of God.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

williemac: Cheers.

... if ye do whatsoever I command you.

.

williemac · Feb 7, 2014

IBEME : I have already addressed all of these accusations. Excuse me...suggestions, about what I am doing. I am most certainly representing the word of God. All scripture is inspired of God. What Jesus said in John 5:24 is that no believer will come into judgment. How did you reply to that verse? Well....you didn't.... Instead you evaded it, turning it against me by suggesting that I am contradicitng myself. Sorry, but these were the words of Jesus. The contradiction is with the passages you quote, in which you are insisting that we earn our salvation through our own effort, and will come into judgment according to our own effort. Jesus says otherwise. Evade it or not, He said it.

There is 'apparent' contradiction in scripture, even in Jesus' own words. On the one hand we can see where the commandments are to be kept for eternal life, and on the other hand we can find where no one can actually acheive life this way and therefore life is given as a free gift by way of faith in Jesus. You say I am rejecting the bible? I say the same to you. What I am doing is explaining it. You are not.

What I am doing is revealing the truth about why we are to live a righteous lifestyle. Your version is that it is to earn life. My version is that it demonstraes it. I have shown many times how we can erase the contradictions by simply understanding the context and the time frames. It seems these are too inconvenient for you to consider, but they address the motives of the heart.

The issue here is self righteousness versus humility.

Paul asked..."shall we sin that grace may abound?" How is it that he can ask this question? Becuase where sin abounds, grace abounds much more, as he revealed. But Paul gives the logical reason why we should not sin. You are giving the legalistic reason, putting words in Paul's mouth.

The dichotomy that is found in that while we are in process of being changed and transformed into new creations, we are not under a system of judgment against our old nature. (because the old man is already considered to be dead).
So what happens to the believer who drifts back into the old man's lusts? The same thing that happens to one of our own children. They are chastened. Jesus has chosen to deal with His church this way. Your version is that He will reject the person. This is as old covenant as it gets. You, my friend, are caught bteween the two covenants. The word for this is "leaven". I am just sorry that you cannot or maybe will not consider it.

A prime example is found in Rom.5.18:19...where we can see that it was by one man's disobedience that many were made sinners, and by One Man's obedience that many are made righteous. What part of one man escapes your comprehension?

If we are to believe your version, the very moment we are given life and righteusness, this rule of thumb goes out the window and we are pole vaulted back into works for justification to life. ONE MAN goes out the window and it becomes every man for himself? Really? Do we "fall back" into the old covenant of works for salvation as soon as we are saved? Do we "fall back" into judgment as soon as we are made righteous? Or do we continue in the victory that overcomes....OUR FAITH (1John5:4)?

But for all who are reading this...notice I did not say anywhere that we should ignore or disobey the exhortation to live a righteous lifestyle. But just watch. Our friend here will come right back and accuse me of doing just that..as he has done time and time again.

IBeMe · Feb 8, 2014

williemac: I am most certainly representing the word of God.

Nope!

You try to shield your teachings from the words of Jesus by creating a Middle Testament, thus perverting the Word of God.

pervert = to cause to turn aside or away ...

You're trying to cause to turn away Christians from the words of Jesus.

williemac:"... the old covenant and the new covenant. But there is also a third one, which is the transition period ..."

But the words you're trying to take from us are the very words Jesus says we must continue in to be one of His disciples .

If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

You teach anti-discipleship of Jesus by trying to remove the words of Jesus from Christian doctrine.

Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Your Middle Testament ( which is the transition period ) is in opposition to Christ.

I've made it absolutely clear that we are subject to all the words of Jesus...

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

But, you try to obfuscate the words of Jesus with your Middle Testament.

Christians are ordered by the resurrected Jesus; Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ...

But you teach just the opposite; proclaiming that the words of Jesus are in a fictitious Middle Testament.

williemac: What Jesus said in John 5:24 is that no believer will come into judgment.

We see that you don't believe your fictitious Middle Testament.

You want to see the promises, but hide the commandments of God in your fictitious Middle Testament.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Great promise! ... Are there any stipulations? ... Let's read on.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

See, you want to hear part of what Jesus says, and hide the rest in your fictitious Middle Testament.

williemac: There is 'apparent' contradiction in scripture, even in Jesus' own words.

There's no contradiction in the words of Jesus, who is the Word of God.

You are trying to teach an 'apparent' contradiction so that you can obfuscate the words of Jesus with your Middle Testament.

williemac: I have shown many times how we can erase the contradictions by simply understanding the context and the time frames.

You've shown many times that you try to erase words from the Word of God with your anti-words of Jesus teachings.

williemac: It seems these are too inconvenient for you to consider, but they address the motives of the heart.

You said a mouth full there!

Your teachings are designed for the motives of the heart, that is; the flesh. ... Just the opposite of how the Bible tells us to live.

Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The Bible says that if we walk ... after the Spirit, we'll have no condemnation.

But, you're trying to hide walk ... after the Spirit from us with your fictitious Middle Testament, hiding the words of Jesus which are Spirit and Life.

Instead, you teach walk ... after the flesh; address the motives of the heart.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

This isn't Christian's goal; "but they address the motives of the heart."

williemac: The issue here is self righteousness versus humility.

You are ignoring Jesus's instructions...

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

You try to hide these instructions from Jesus in your fictitious Middle Testament.

williemac: The dichotomy that is found in that while we are in process of being changed

You were made a born-again-of-the-Spirit-new-creature-in-Christ-Jesus-son-of-God the second you asked Jesus into your heart; but now you want to "address the motives of the heart".

Bad move...

.

williemac · Feb 8, 2014

When did the new covenant begin? Let's see what the bible says.

Heb.9: 16,17....." For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testiment is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives"

vs. 18 states that even the first covenant was dedicated with blood.

vs.28 states that Christ was offered to bear the sins of many. So then, it is clear that the new covenant (testament) began AFTER the death of Jesus. After Hid blood was shed. For without the shedding of blood, there is no remission. (vs,22)

Speaking of flesh and spirit. I am not the one who says our sins have not been remitted. I am not the one who says that life is not a free gift by faith.

Between the flesh and spirit, which one is likely to want to justify itself? BINGO! the flesh

If it is no longer a matter of the heart, then why was Paul so harsh with the Galatians, who sought to be justified by works AFTER they had received the Spirit by faith? He told them they had fallen from grace, having estranged themselves from Christ. Think about the fact that God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. Self justification is a matter of pride.

Mark my words, this subject is a real big deal. What are we telling each other? To remain humble in trusting Him for our life, trusting in His promise, or to do what Abraham first did? He 'helped' God by producing a son from the bondservant. Paul put the "flesh" label to this act (Gal.4:23). You think the flesh is just about sinning? Think again.
I tell you the truth. The sin issue was dealt with at Calvary. The pride issue was not. Sin can be remitted (removed, forgiven). Pride will not be forgiven nor removed. It is up to the individual to humble himself. This is found in the words of Jesus Himself in Luke 18:14.

As I asked you before, what part of ONE Man's obedience escapes your comprehension? (Rom.5:18,19)

IBeMe · Feb 9, 2014

williemac: When did the new covenant begin? Let's see what the bible says.

Wrong question!

The question is, what did Jesus teach?

It's the words of Jesus that you're trying to hide your teachings from with your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

williemac:"... the old covenant and the new covenant. But there is also a third one, which is the transition period ..."

Contrary to what you teach, Jesus taught the Gospel; not fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Christians are responsible for all that Jesus said.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You try to take these words away with your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

Christians must live in Jesus's words.

If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

You try to take these words away with your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

And this gospel (the words of Jesus) of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

You're trying to take the words of the Gospel away with your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

The resurrected Jesus destroys your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament teaching.

Christians are commanded to participate in spreading the words Jesus taught throughout the whole world, teaching all to observe what Jesus said.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: ...

NOTE: You can't pretend to hide these words of Jesus in your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament because Jesus spoke these words after He was resurrected.

This scripture might help shed some light on your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

williemac: Heb.9: 16,17....." For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator ...

You're the only one teaching that there was three covenants; "necessity be the death of the testator".

Let's look at this scripture, instead.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

williemac:"... the old covenant and the new covenant. But there is also a third one, which is the transition period ..."

You third covenant is 100% FALSE!!! ... According to the Bible.

Gal 4:24 ... two covenants ...

.

u

williemac · Feb 9, 2014

IBeMe said:
Wrong question!

The question is, what did Jesus teach?

It's the words of Jesus that you're trying to hide your teachings from with your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

williemac:"... the old covenant and the new covenant. But there is also a third one, which is the transition period ..."

Contrary to what you teach, Jesus taught the Gospel; not fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Christians are responsible for all that Jesus said.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You try to take these words away with your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

Christians must live in Jesus's words.

If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

You try to take these words away with your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

And this gospel (the words of Jesus) of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

You're trying to take the words of the Gospel away with your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

The resurrected Jesus destroys your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament teaching.

Christians are commanded to participate in spreading the words Jesus taught throughout the whole world, teaching all to observe what Jesus said.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: ...

NOTE: You can't pretend to hide these words of Jesus in your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament because Jesus spoke these words after He was resurrected.

This scripture might help shed some light on your fictitious anti-words of Jesus Middle Testament.

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

You're the only one teaching that there was three covenants; "necessity be the death of the testator".

Let's look at this scripture, instead.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

williemac:"... the old covenant and the new covenant. But there is also a third one, which is the transition period ..."

You third covenant is 100% FALSE!!! ... According to the Bible.

Gal 4:24 ... two covenants ...

.

u

Are you kidding me? I never said there were three covenants. Just another example of puitting words in my mouth and then mocking the ficticious result, instead of actually making a respectful attempt to understand what I am communicating. Your partial quote is borderline malicious. What I said was that there are three TIME PERIODS, not three covenants, nor even three testaments.. In your quote of me, you cut out that part and the did the old ".... starting the quote in the middle of the sentence. I am getting fed up with this kind of trickery. You are not interested in having a purposeful discussion.

Furthermore, you are totally ignoring the words of the author of Hebrews (likely Paul), in confirming that the new covenant (testament) did not come into effect until after the death of Jesus. Instead, you simply go to the words of Jesus, as if somehow whatever is called scripture is not valid if it seems to contradict Him. But your error is in the fact that all scripture is inspired of God and profitalbe for among other things...correction. It is one thing to be unwilling to be corrected by scripture, but where do you get off with such cruelty in purposely misrepresenting my replies so that you can mock them? You claim that we should obey Jesus? Maybe you should take some of that advice yourself in dealing with others with a little more dignity and respect...and honesty. Lying is a sin, my friend. Do you not realize are publically lying about what I am saying, for all to witness? You can lead by example much more effectively than ignoring your own advice.

In my mention of three time periods, I was referring to the time of the old covenant, the time of the new covenant, and the time of Jesus' ministry, in which He ministered to the people under the old, while giving hints that the new was coming. I can go to several examples where Jesus spoke to the people within the confines of the law of Moses. And I can show in scripture that faith for justification was not fully revealed to mankind until after His resurrection. Therefore, it was kept hidden on purpose until Jesus fulfilled penalty of the law by His sacrifice for sin. But alas, it seems like it would be a further waste of time, as you will undoubtedly ignore most of it and simply misquote me again as you usually do. For that, I wait with baited breath.

IBeMe · Feb 10, 2014

williemac: ... malicious ...

No.

I had trouble trying to ascertain/follow any logic in your two-three-five-seven covenant/time/whatever oddball thingy.

LOL! ... Apparently you're having trouble following it yourself because it took two post before you realised that I misunderstood which was the 'three'.

It's a straw-man argument, weird one at that; it doesn't matter if you, or I, understand your two-three-five-seven covenant/time/whatever oddball thingy.

You used to say that Jesus was teaching the Mosaic Law ... Then you found out that was too unscriptural to support ... now you've cooked up this two-three-five-seven covenant/time/whatever oddball deal.

Remember, it's the words of Jesus you're trying to do away with.

What was Jesus teaching? ... That's the only relevant question.

Jesus was teaching the Gospel!

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

You have your fictitious "time frames", but this is God's "time frames"; The time is fulfilled ... repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Your straw-man time frames thingy is is absurdly irrelevant because Jesus, after He rose from the dead, says we must observe all that He commanded.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:

Contrary to your teaching, Jesus says we are subject to every word he taught.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

You teach "receiveth not my words" with your fictitious two-three-five-seven covenant/time/whatever oddball thingy.

williemac: Furthermore, you are totally ignoring the words of the author of Hebrews ...

Phony straw-man argument.

Nothing Paul says anywhere in the Bible says to ignore the words of Jesus.

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Paul confirms that he is teaching what Jesus preached.

So, you can't use Paul's words to do away with Jesus's words; same Gospel, says Paul.

williemac: Instead, you simply go to the words of Jesus ...

You don't like some of the words of Jesus?

williemac: Instead, you simply go to the words of Jesus, as if somehow whatever is called scripture is not valid if it seems to contradict Him.

I understand that it's your goal to contradict the words of Jesus, but you failed.

God doesn't contradict the Word of God and no scripture contradicts Jesus, who is The Word of God.

What you teach is in total contradiction to the words of Jesus, who is The Word of God; thus necessitating your attempts to do away with the words of Jesus.

williemac: But your error is in the fact that all scripture is inspired of God and profitalbe for among other things...correction.

Correction of false teaching

williemac: Maybe you should take some of that advice yourself in dealing with others with a little more dignity and respect...and honesty. Lying is a sin, my friend. Do you not realize are publically lying about what I am saying, for all to witness?

Personal attacks will be ignored as irrelevant and childish.

williemac: In my mention of three time periods

Is contrary to the words of Jesus.

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

williemac: ... in which He ministered to the people under the old, while giving hints that the new was coming.

BINGO!!! ... Trying to take the words of Jesus from us!!!

You try, FALSELY, to take away the words of Jesus by contradicting the Bible.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached ...

Jesus preached the Gospel.

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

williemac: I can go to several examples where Jesus spoke to the people within the confines of the law of Moses.

You try to contradict the words of Jesus.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached ...

williemac: And I can show in scripture that faith for justification was not fully revealed to mankind until after His resurrection.

Click to expand...

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

.

williemac · Feb 10, 2014

Gal.4: 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written:
“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.

Gal.3
19What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Before faith came: When did "faith come, and be revealed"? Afterward. Its all there in black and white.

These are the things that Jesus commanded concerning everlasting life. John 6:47.." Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life"

Remember the OP question. What is required? Do we want to be friends of Jesus? Yes. Should we live a moral lifestile? Yes. What is required for salvation? Humility and faith in Jesus. God gives grace to the humble. Our salvation is not of works, that is not of oursleves, lest any man should boast.

Can eternal life come from keeping any law? Refer to Gal.3:21,above. Life is a free gift, given by grace, received by faith. This is what Jesus Himself commanded concerning life. ie. John 3:16. His other commandments concern other things. The subject on this thread is not whether Jesus gave commandments or not. It is about what Jesus, plus the rest of the bible, told us concerning the way to everlasting life.

John 1: "12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
16And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." Which law? refer to the above references.

IBeMe · Feb 10, 2014

williemac: Gal.4: 22

So?

Doesn't take the words of Jesus away, who is The Word of God.

Jesus wasn't teaching the Mosaic Law.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached ...

Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven.

... Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

williemac: Gal.3

Only agrees with Jesus, who is The Word of God.

The words of Jesus, who is God, is the Gospel.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: ...

Jesus = Paul = same Gospel.

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

williemac: These are the things that Jesus commanded concerning everlasting life. John 6:47

Why do you try to ignore some of Jesus's words?

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

williemac: Remember the OP question. What is required?

You may not agree with Jesus, who is God; but this is what Jesus, who is the Word of God; says.

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

williemac: Our salvation is not of works, that is not of oursleves, lest any man should boast.

Saved by faith ... after that ...

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

This doesn't agree with what you teach; by then, Jesus is the Word of God.

williemac: Can eternal life come from keeping any law?

Why do you ask a stupid question like that?

Saved by faith, then do what God says.

Rebellious acts and teachings against the words of Jesus will be futile.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

You can't make the words of Jesus go away!

.

williemac · Feb 10, 2014

IBeMe said:
Saved by faith ... after that ...

Why do you ask a stupid question like that?

Saved by faith, then do what God says.

Rebellious acts and teachings against the words of Jesus will be futile.

Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Luk 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

You can't make the words of Jesus go away!

.

Like I said, your persecution is duly noted. Rebellious? That is your strategy. Shoot the messenger. And by my saying that, your reply is that I am the one getting personal?

Saved by faith. After that...remain saved by works. That is your position.

I have always agreed wholeheartedly that AFTER THAT...we should bear fruit. But the qualification for life is humility, and the method by which it is received and maintained is faith.

Why would I want the words of Jesus to go away? He is the one who first announced salvation by faith and justification through humility. (Luke 18:10-14)

But this quote here, which you repeat often....... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. seems to contradict John 6:47....." Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life" . These are both conditions presented in the words of Jesus. They contradict one another....unless you keep them in their perspective covenants. I can assure you that there is a reason why these two conditions are never found together in the same verse or sentence. It is rather, a few unlearned people who tie them together in one. Jesus never said "believe in Me and keep the commandments".. for everlasting life....anywhere

Now I ask you...what "the" commandments was Jesus talking about? Of course, they are the ten commandments. And where did these come from? Mount Sinai, through Moses. And if they are not the ten commandments, then please retrace your repleis, because you insist that they are. And if they are, the original ten, then please refer to Gal.4:22-26

" For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. "

And by the way, since when are these also not the words of Jesus? Is he not "THE WORD'"?

Gal.3
19What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

IT IS ONE OR THE OTHER FOR JUSTIFICATION...NOT BOTH

IBeMe · Feb 10, 2014

williemac: Like I said, your persecution is duly noted.

Someone disagrees with what you teach ... now you're persecuted?

williemac: Saved by faith. After that...remain saved by works. That is your position.

Fake straw-man argument! ... Grammatical error!

"works" is a noun ... nouns don't do anything.

It's real simple!

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

williemac: I have always agreed wholeheartedly that AFTER THAT...we should bear fruit. But the qualification for life is humility, and the method by which it is received and maintained is faith.

Why don't you agree with Jesus?

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

It's good to be Jesus's friend!

williemac: Why would I want the words of Jesus to go away?

You keep trying to make these words of Jesus go away.

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

williemac: But this quote here, which you repeat often....... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. seems to contradict John 6:47....." Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life"

What did I tell you?
Trying to make these words go away!

... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

There's no contradiction; if you don't believe Jesus, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", then you don't believe.

Jesus, who is the Word of God, has decreed that you don't love Him if you don't keep His commandments.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: ...

williemac: These are both conditions presented in the words of Jesus. They contradict one another

There's no contradictions in the words of Jesus.

They do contradict what you teach.

williemac: They contradict one another....unless you keep them in their perspective covenants.

Jesus was teaching the Gospel, not the Mosaic Law.

And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, ...

Don't you want to be Jesus's friend?

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

williemac: I can assure you that there is a reason why these two conditions are never found together in the same verse or sentence. It is rather, a few unlearned people who tie them together in one.

I can assure you that you will be judged by every word of Jesus.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

williemac: ... few unlearned people who tie them together in one ...

no comment

williemac: Jesus never said "believe in Me and keep the commandments".. for everlasting life....anywhere

Of course not ... that's grammatically incorrect.

"commandment" is a noun ... nouns don't do anything ... "commandments" don't do anything

It's when you break the commandment that the problem arises.

williemac: Now I ask you...what "the" commandments was Jesus talking about? Of course, they are the ten commandments. And where did these come from? Mount Sinai, through Moses.

False!

God's commandments are everlasting.

... but from the beginning it was not so ...

williemac: And by the way, since when are these also not the words of Jesus? Is he not "THE WORD'"?

The Mosaic Law was given to the children of Israel to teach, and help them keep, God's commandments.

Jesus came and died so that we could keep the righteousness of the law, God's commandments.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

williemac: IT IS ONE OR THE OTHER FOR JUSTIFICATION...NOT BOTH

FALSE STRAW-MAN ARGUMENT!

We're saved by faith.

If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

It's real simple ... just do what Jesus says.

.

williemac · Feb 10, 2014

IBeMe said:
Someone disagrees with what you teach ... now you're persecuted?

calling me rebellious is not the same as mere disagreement, nor is fabricating false or partial quotes and then mocking them

IBeMe said:
Fake straw-man argument! ... Grammatical error!
"works" is a noun ... nouns don't do anything.
You keep trying to make these words of Jesus go away.
... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I guess Paul never considered this so called straw man in his insisting that we are not saved by works, but rather by grace through faith. Now you mock Paul?

and 'commandments' is verb? O right, as you say, they don't do anything. So how does that trump what you say about works? You say the problem arises when we 'break' a commandment. So keeping them is not a work?
We are not saved by works of law. But we can lose salvation if we aren't doing the works of the law. HUH? This straw man that you allude to is no better than your double talk. You say we don't keep commandments (noun) for salvation, but we don't get saved if we break them. HuH?
O wait, hang on. I get it. We are saved by faith in Jesus and keeping the commandments. But just not the Mosaic law. We are to keep the commandments that are not part of the Mosaic law. So we are saved by both faith and works, just not works of Mosaic law. Just to be clear...that is your position, right?

MARK 7:9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.

How is it that Jesus is validating Moses as teaching the commandment of God? And how is it that Jesus is teaching the same commandment?

Next...Luke:10:
25And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
28And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

Here we find Jesus teaching what He called the law. As it happens, the lawyer quoted from the commandments that came down from Mount Sinai with Moses.

You say Jesus did not teach the same law as Moses? I say He did, and I have more scripture to back that up if you care to mock me some more.

Dodo_David · Feb 10, 2014

If you are going to argue that you must keep the commandments in order to go to Heaven, then I expect you to keep all 613 commandments that are in the Torah.

That's right. There are 613, not just 10.

IBeMe · Feb 11, 2014

Nouns are a part of speech typically denoting a person, place, thing, animal or idea. (wikipedia)

To put it in technical terms; nouns don't do stuff, they be stuff.

"work", "deed", "faith", "commandment", (and plurals) are nouns. (1)

"work", "deed", "faith", "commandment": can't save you, can't forgive sins, can't get you to heaven, can't stop you from going to heaven ... can't do anything ... they're nouns.

Grammatically and Scripturally: (nouns don't do anything)
- faith without works is dead (actions)
- works without faith is dead (not being mixed with faith in them that heard it)

Saved By Faith: not without action
- must believe that Jesus is the Son of God
- must admit we are a sinner
- must ask

God has commandments; noun, doesn't do anything.

God can offer rewards for obedience.
God can punish disobedience.
I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

"work" = activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something
"works" = total activity

Willful activity to keep, or not break, a commandment = 'good work'.

Willful activity to break, or not keep, a commandment = 'bad work'.

"works" is a noun; doesn't do anything.

God's judgment of our "works" (activity) may result in rewards or punishment.

Good works (activity) gives glory to God.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Bad works (activity) gives glory to Satan.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

We're not made righteous by "works".
We can make ourselves unrighteous by wilfully breaking God's commandments; "bad works".

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh ...

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

___________________________________________
(1) Some forms of the words may be other parts of speech.

work horse = adjective
___________________________________________
..

.

What required for going to Heaven?

Do you believe that a person must be a member of the Roman Catholic Church in order to go to Heaven?

Yes

No

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“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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