The Three Earth Ages

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HammerStone

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I don't see it because it's not there! :study: ...you should be able to be a lot less vague if you're defending what you "know" is true.
Apparently my suspicions are justified. Read my previous posts and you'll find the specific reference to the verse in II Corinthians 12:2 where Paul specifically says the third heaven! I'm not quite sure what's vague about that. I continue to provide verses that supplement what I say because I know it to be true.
Yes... your point? I say those bones are there as a result of the biblical Noachic flood... not an extrabiblical, "pre-historic" Luciferian flood.
That's not what the Bible says. Genesis 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. That's what the Bible has to say about it. This tradition that dinosaurs somehow escaped the Bible (with the exception of Job where God shows us that they indeed existed) and dissappeared in the flood is truly flawed. I think we can all agree that when God says it, God means it. He said every. Not a few, not some, not most, but every.
How did what I say put any limit on God's power? Please be specific. I re-read it and I have no idea how you can think that... when you say "God can easily defy" what He says, you are saying God has no problem with lying to His people. I have a problem with that! If you think I'm limiting God's power by saying he is not a liar then I don't think there's any reconciliation between the two of us on that point.
With all due respect, I do not understand you one bit my friend. To even suggest that I am calling God "a liar" warrants nothing more from me to respond to that. I'll let those chips fall where they may. As for the limiting of God's power, you're reading the Bible as some sort of flat history book of what happened. You're missing the clues that Our Father so masterfully placed in important spots and yelling heresay anytime someone doesn't agree with you. The title Living Bible is quite apt. God gave it to us as his letter, and despite our best attempts to corrupt its meaning in the various translations, the Truth is still right there on many different levels.
Yes. Chapter 2... which is after the time frame I gave as the only sensible biblical explanation for the timing of this occurrence.
Which proves nothing to satiate your point nor mine for that matter. Genesis simply documents his appearance in language which is ambiguous. Satan simply appears in chapter two.
Are you not saying there had to be a whole other creation before Genesis 1:2? You have to be saying that if you believe in a gap of a gajillion years between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2.
All in your mind, perhaps, if you feel that way. However, this Truth found in the Bible doesn't deny anywhere that God created all things.
Saying that's a stretch is putting it lightly. Please don't try to make it something it's not... the words have basically the same meaning. In fact, in the Septuagint, "made" in Gen. 1:1 and "made" in Ex. 20:11 are the same word, εποίησεν (Strong's Gr. 4160).
The word is Hebrew word #6213 in most references. It's showing up that way in every version that I have checked including several online versions of the Septuagint. Either way, the specific word does not matter because it still says what I affirm that God created this world and heaven as we know it in Genesis.
 

2Pillars

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Here's my take - Genesis 1:1-2....."In the beginning God Created the heaven and the Earth. v2 And the Earth was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (Death) was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."Genesis 1:1 is actually a preface - The Story of the Beginning of Creation.Genesis 1:2 narrate us the condition of the deep BEFORE the actual creation heaven and earth in the beginning. Genesis 1:3 document us the bringing forth of the "Word" (Light) into this physical world - to turn the condition of the deep (empty) from darkness (death) to light (life). Note: YHWH or Jesus, the Son God, the True Light that was actually brought forth into this physical world from the invisible realm of his Father -- when God spoke the "Word" in the beginning and said, "LET THERE BE LIGHT" Gen. 1:3 The brightness of the glory of the Son provided the Light in heaven in the beginning (ALPHA) as he will also be to provide the Light in the end (OMEGA) in the New Jersalem -- since, there will not be a sun nor moon to shine in it - ref. Rev. 21:23.Genesis 1:4 God divided the Light from the darkness before the start of any creation - the first work of old.Genesis 1:5 Light Day and Night - the 1st. Day. IOW, Scripture documents us that the actual formation of the 1st heaven only took place on the 2nd Day (Genesis 1:6-8) - Our universe were made on the 3rd day - NOT Genesis 1:1 - contray to the popular belief.God Bless
 

2Pillars

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There are several reasons why I believe that the word used in Gen. 1:1 is Heaven and not Heavens (plural). In the context of the text, I see the narrative as saying:In the beginning God Created the heaven (Air) and the Earth (Ground). And the Earth was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness (Death) was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.The 3 elements necessary for all physical form are shown... Air, Dust, and Water. Everything which is physical is composed of these 3 elements.The text is correct in showing that the water was not directly created, or spoken into being, because it consists of elements of the Air or Atmosphere. Water is Hydrogen and Oxygen and came from the Atmosphere and is not shown as a separate creation.This is correct in today's scientific knowledge, but IF the Bible were written by Ancient men, Moses would not have known this. He would have written that in the beginning God created the Air, Dust, and Water, but since God Himself is the Author, He correctly shows that the Atmosphere and Ground were created, and the Water was not a separate creation but instead, came from the Atmosphere.God Bless
 

graceforums

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Apparently my suspicions are justified. Read my previous posts and you'll find the specific reference to the verse in II Corinthians 12:2 where Paul specifically says the third heaven! I'm not quite sure what's vague about that. I continue to provide verses that supplement what I say because I know it to be true.
I've always understood the "third heaven" to be Heaven (with a capital "H"). The first heaven is the earth's atmosphere. The second heaven is outer space where the Sun, Moon, and Stars reside. The third heaven then is the one we won't see until we pass from this life. Paul was given the unique privilege to see it before he died. (SwampFox)
That's not what the Bible says. Genesis 6:19 And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. Genesis 7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. That's what the Bible has to say about it. This tradition that dinosaurs somehow escaped the Bible (with the exception of Job where God shows us that they indeed existed) and dissappeared in the flood is truly flawed. I think we can all agree that when God says it, God means it. He said every. Not a few, not some, not most, but every.
You must have totally misread what I have written here. I believe the dinosaurs were on the ark. God just saw fit to let them quietly die out after the great flood. I don't have a problem with that. (SwampFox)
As for the limiting of God's power, you're reading the Bible as some sort of flat history book of what happened. You're missing the clues that Our Father so masterfully placed in important spots and yelling heresay anytime someone doesn't agree with you. The title Living Bible is quite apt. God gave it to us as his letter, and despite our best attempts to corrupt its meaning in the various translations, the Truth is still right there on many different levels.
Most of the Old Testament (from Genesis to Job) is history. There is nothing wrong with taking it as history. Apparently, history is very important to God. Otherwise, He would not have included so much of it in His Word. The entire Old Testament foreshadows Christ. Jesus Christ is the central focus of ALL of God's Word. Some people like to play code games with the Bible but there's a lot less "hidden" symbolism there than a lot of folks think there is. (SwampFox)
Which proves nothing to satiate your point nor mine for that matter. Genesis simply documents his appearance in language which is ambiguous. Satan simply appears in chapter two.
Chronologically, chapter 2 follows after the sixth day of creation. I'd say my point is quite satiated.(SwampFox)
All in your mind, perhaps, if you feel that way. However, this Truth found in the Bible doesn't deny anywhere that God created all things.
Huh? Where did I say God did not create all things??? The fact that God did create ALL things was one of the driving points of one of my previous posts if you'll recall. Are we reading the same thread? Perhaps your trying to find hidden clues in what I've written as well... :eek: (SwampFox)
The word is Hebrew word #6213 in most references. It's showing up that way in every version that I have checked including several online versions of the Septuagint. Either way, the specific word does not matter because it still says what I affirm that God created this world and heaven as we know it in Genesis.
Yes. I'm saying that, too. But you're adding to it by saying there was a whole other world and heaven and creation prior to that which is not biblical. If you think the phrase "the heavens were of old" in 2 Peter 3 means there was another "age" prior to the Genesis creation, I urge you to do a search in the Old Testament (in the KJV to get the full effect) on the words "of old" and see what you get.I apologize if I come across as overly sarcastic or facetious to you or to anyone else reading this. I started out in this thread trying to dispel what I believe to be a lie and it's been quite heated ever since. Please don't run with the impression that I am against you in any way. I'm not. I only wish for the Truth to be revealed as a result of such discussions and I can tell you have a similar zeal for Truth. May God show both of us the errors of our ways wherever they may be.Shalom,Lane
 

HammerStone

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I've always understood the "third heaven" to be Heaven (with a capital "H"). The first heaven is the earth's atmosphere. The second heaven is outer space where the Sun, Moon, and Stars reside. The third heaven then is the one we won't see until we pass from this life. Paul was given the unique privilege to see it before he died.
Interesting but I have to again disagree on some points. The third heaven is the specific final age when everything returns to God. The heaven he saw, I am confident, is the heaven that will be after this world is burned up and the second advent comes. God allowed him (Paul) that glimpse as you said. God isn't limited by time like we are, and this is how he showed Paul what will happen.
You must have totally misread what I have written here. I believe the dinosaurs were on the ark. God just saw fit to let them quietly die out after the great flood. I don't have a problem with that.
I didn't misread a thing unless I accidentally passed over something; I never saw you state that dinosaurs were on the ark nor this idea that they died out afterwards. I don't think it makes much sense at all, either. Why are there not more records of them in both the Bible and sources outside the Bible?
Most of the Old Testament (from Genesis to Job) is history. There is nothing wrong with taking it as history. Apparently, history is very important to God. Otherwise, He would not have included so much of it in His Word. The entire Old Testament foreshadows Christ. Jesus Christ is the central focus of ALL of God's Word. Some people like to play code games with the Bible but there's a lot less "hidden" symbolism there than a lot of folks think there is.
There's no "code" to be found here. This isn't an exercise of taking random letters and coming up with some vague phrase that describes and event that already happened. These are the words of God taken from his letter to us, the Bible.My point is simply that a lot of people like to read the OT as a history book written by some professor with a PhD in a crowded office. They lose the lessons that have been passed down in the book and you have to treat the Bible as the greatest work in the history of man (note: it was given to man by God). This means that words will have multiple levels of meaning to help us understand what went on and what will go on.This isn't hidden in the sense of you need a code to break it, it's hidden in the since that we've forgotten it.
Chronologically, chapter 2 follows after the sixth day of creation. I'd say my point is quite satiated.
Not at all, I made my point earlier, no need to rehash it.
Huh? Where did I say God did not create all things??? The fact that God did create ALL things was one of the driving points of one of my previous posts if you'll recall. Are we reading the same thread? Perhaps your trying to find hidden clues in what I've written as well...
Number one, I never said that you did. I don't quite understand why you continue to try and read this in my posts like I have it out for you. I'm simply trying to teach a lesson and discuss it openly here.
Yes. I'm saying that, too. But you're adding to it by saying there was a whole other world and heaven and creation prior to that which is not biblical. If you think the phrase "the heavens were of old" in 2 Peter 3 means there was another "age" prior to the Genesis creation, I urge you to do a search in the Old Testament (in the KJV to get the full effect) on the words "of old" and see what you get.
Hold on a minute here. These are your exact words from your post yesterday:
Saying that's a stretch is putting it lightly. Please don't try to make it something it's not... the words have basically the same meaning. In fact, in the Septuagint, "made" in Gen. 1:1 and "made" in Ex. 20:11 are the same word, εποίησεν (Strong's Gr. 4160).
As far as doing my research, I'm well ahead of you. Check out the word "old" which is G1597 in Strong's. It means long ago, for a long while. Again, as I have continued to say, this is Biblical.
I apologize if I come across as overly sarcastic or facetious to you or to anyone else reading this. I started out in this thread trying to dispel what I believe to be a lie and it's been quite heated ever since. Please don't run with the impression that I am against you in any way. I'm not. I only wish for the Truth to be revealed as a result of such discussions and I know you have a similar zeal for Truth. May God show both of us the errors of our ways wherever they may be.
I wasn't under the impression that this "debate" was heated. I'll point out that this section was left open ended for discussion for a reason. I'm confident that the Bible can answer any question about the lessons that I'll do here. I go to the Bible for everything I say and I back it up scripturally to the best of my ability. The scriptural evidence for the case of the 3 ages is overwhelming in this case.
 

2Pillars

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My Take....God wrote the Bible with His terms, not ours. There are numerous "earths" in our Universe, at least one destroyed in the 1st Heaven, and unlimited "earths" in the 3rd Heaven. The first Earth was in the first Heaven, which was made on the 2nd Day, in the midst of the water. Gen 1:6-8 The first Earth was made on the 3rd Day. Gen 1:9 On this same 3rd Day, YHWH or Jesus, translated "LORD God" by the King James Translators, made other Heavens. Gen 2:4-5 Our Heaven or Universe is NOT surrounded by water and was made on a different "Day" than the first Heaven. The 1st Earth was destroyed totally and completely when the 1st Universe was dissolved in the Flood. Remember, that the 1st Universe was in the midst of the water. When the floodgates were opened, the entire World of Adam thru Noah was dissolved;perished; gone forever; no more - exactly as God told us.The heavens and the earth, which are Now, will be burned. The sin and violence of men, brought about it's destruction. ll Peter 3:5-7 . The 3rd Heaven is also the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 21:1.To summarize: The 1st Heaven was dissolved in the Flood. The present Heaven or Universe will be burned. ll Peter 3:5-7 The 3rd Heaven is where all Chrisitans will live forever.John 141 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. v2 In my Father's house are many MANSIONS: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.God Bless
 

graceforums

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I didn't misread a thing unless I accidentally passed over something; I never saw you state that dinosaurs were on the ark nor this idea that they died out afterwards. I don't think it makes much sense at all, either. Why are there not more records of them in both the Bible and sources outside the Bible?
The Bible is never centrally focused in any way on animals. Also, we must remember that all the land on the earth was not yet populated by man. Dinosaurs and man may not have had a lot of encounters. And it's likely that they died out before the ancient civilizations even started writing. "Dragons" in millennia-old legends and folklore may point to mankind's depiction of dinosaurs.(SwampFox)
My point is simply that a lot of people like to read the OT as a history book written by some professor with a PhD in a crowded office. They lose the lessons that have been passed down in the book and you have to treat the Bible as the greatest work in the history of man (note: it was given to man by God). This means that words will have multiple levels of meaning to help us understand what went on and what will go on.
I agree completely.(SwampFox)
Hold on a minute here. These are your exact words from your post yesterday:
Yes. And...? (SwampFox)
As far as doing my research, I'm well ahead of you. Check out the word "old" which is G1597 in Strong's. It means long ago, for a long while. Again, as I have continued to say, this is Biblical.
Yes. But "old" could mean 100 years or it could mean 5,000 years. Why automatically assume it means billions of years? (SwampFox)
The scriptural evidence for the case of the 3 ages is overwhelming in this case.
The concept of three ages, which I don't necessarily disagree with, does not require a gap "between" Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. That's my only real beef with what you're saying. 2Pillars (btw, welcome) is correct to say that Gen. 1:1 is merely a preface to what is about to be disclosed in the creation account... when God made history, time began, and when God entered into history.Shalom,Lane
 

HammerStone

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The Bible is never centrally focused in any way on animals. Also, we must remember that all the land on the earth was not yet populated by man. Dinosaurs and man may not have had a lot of encounters. And it's likely that they died out before the ancient civilizations even started writing. "Dragons" in millennia-old legends and folklore may point to mankind's depiction of dinosaurs.
Valid points. I will point out here that way I say and what you say is about this is purely speculation. Anyways, I must say that for the dinosaurs to be what they were (as God himself described them in Job) they were truly amazing creatures of God's creation. For all intents and purposes, it appears as though God is showing the behemoth in a dream and I think this is true because they did not exist anymore. I'll leave everyone to their own interpretation of that passage in Job, however. I'd just want to point out, that if this were something that were true (the existence of humans as we know them and dinosaurs) there would be more accurate accounts of what went on with them. Why? They're gigantic and if they were truly roaming the countryside then we'd see them in the Bible, I am almost certain, because of their strength and size as God's amazing creation just as they were used in Job.
Yes. But "old" could mean 100 years or it could mean 5,000 years. Why automatically assume it means billions of years?
The specific phrasing of the verse. If you cannot see it then that's how you interpret it; there's nothing more for me to say because I've said it all before.
The concept of three ages, which I don't necessarily disagree with, does not require a gap "between" Gen. 1:1 and 1:2. That's my only real beef with what you're saying. 2Pillars (btw, welcome) is correct to say that Gen. 1:1 is merely a preface to what is about to be disclosed in the creation account... when God made history, time began, and when God entered into history.
Again, we'll have to agree to disagree here. The word choice in Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 are pretty specific. They're used again in the passage in Isaiah to confirm that the world was not created in vain. The earth ages certainly don't require a gap at all but God put it there in his message.
 

graceforums

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The earth ages certainly don't require a gap at all but God put it there in his message.
A gap would mean four "ages"... not three.1. from eternity past to the "Luciferian flood", war in heaven, six-day creation2. from the six-day creation to the Noachic flood3. the current age4. New Heaven and EarthThat doesn't add up. Am I wrong in this assessment?
 

HammerStone

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I'm afraid you are a little off in the concept. The gap is simply the time in between the 1st and 2nd age as we know it, it's not an age. God doesn't reveal it to us for a reason, but we will know it when we return to God.1. 1st Heaven and 1st Earth AgeThis is where Lucifer leads to the revolt when he drew 1/3 of the host of heaven with him. The time period would be roughly from "the beginning" to the revolt and the so called "Luciferian flood" that happens. This is an unspecified period of time.2. 2nd Heaven and 2nd EarthThe current age as we know it beginning with the creation of Adam as we know him. Time period would be from creation to now and will extend until we reach the second advent when this earth shall be burnt up as described in II Peter 3 and Paul's writings.3. New Heaven and New EarthThat glorious day that begins upon the return of Christ. We'll all be restored to our spiritual bodies and questions will be answered. This is the New Heaven and the New Earth and the third and final age.Hope that helps.
 

2Pillars

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I'm afraid you are a little off in the concept. The gap is simply the time in between the 1st and 2nd age as we know it, it's not an age. God doesn't reveal it to us for a reason, but we will know it when we return to God.
That's the point -- why continue making an ASSUMPTION (gap theory) if the Scripture does not say so in Genesis 1:1-2?
 

2Pillars

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The point is, my friend, it does say so. I've outlined it in the original lesson.
Is that right? hmmmmm...Do you know the meaning of the word "Genesis"?
 

graceforums

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That's right, 2Pillars. In the beginning says it all! This is the beginning of time, the beginning of history. Nothing could have begun before THE beginning. Nothing but God can be "pre-historic". He is the only entity with an eternal past. He is the only entity that can be and ever could have been outside the space-time continuum.The first age has to be from THE beginning to the Noachic flood. God destroyed the earth and all its inhabitants (save those on the ark), ending the first age. Am I wrong? If not, there's no room in Scripture for a "pre-historic" age.
 

2Pillars

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That's right, 2Pillars. In the beginning says it all! This is the beginning of time, the beginning of history. Nothing could have begun before THE beginning. Nothing but God can be "pre-historic". He is the only entity with an eternal past. He is the only entity that can be and ever could have been outside the space-time continuum.The first age has to be from THE beginning to the Noachic flood. God destroyed the earth and all its inhabitants (save those on the ark), ending the first age. Am I wrong? If not, there's no room in Scripture for a "pre-historic" age.
YES! I agree with you. You are absolutely correct on this issue, 7cworldwide. God Bless
 

HammerStone

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You guys would be correct. Verse one says in the beginning and it took place in the beginning of the first age. Clearly, however, God existed before this.
The first age has to be from THE beginning to the Noachic flood. God destroyed the earth and all its inhabitants (save those on the ark), ending the first age. Am I wrong? If not, there's no room in Scripture for a "pre-historic" age.
See my initital post. That's your opinion, you've made yours and I've made mine and I will not back down from it. If you guys want to discuss something about it, then I'm all for it. However, I will ask that you kindly refrain from rehashing issues that have been gone over.
 
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