Romans 9 Vs. Calvinism

Ernest T. Bass · Jan 18, 2014

In Romans 9, Paul knows that God has cut-off His elect Jews and grafted in the once non-elect Gentiles (Rom 11:11-22) and in Romans 9 Paul refutes any argument the Jews would have against God doing this.

How does this casting off of elect and grafting in those once non-elect jibe with the idea of Calvinistic predestination?

SolaGratia · Jan 18, 2014

All Jews aren't elect. Only those who belong to Christ. Romans 11:7 is pretty clear.

"What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened" (Romans 11:7 ESV).

Those in Israel who are elect obtained what they sought (salvation). The rest (those who aren't elect) were hardened.

Ernest T. Bass · Jan 18, 2014

Under the OT before Christ came and instituted His NT all Jews were of the elect, they were born into that election. And ALL the Gentile nations were not of the elect. Paul is talking about Jews and Gentiles as nations, not certain individual Jews or Gentiles. So when God cut-off Israel as a nation, that means every single individual Jew was then cut-off.

Rom 7:11 is after Christ came and set up His gospel.. All Jews, Israel as a nation had been cut-off and only those Jews that obeyed the gospel of Christ in Acts 2 then became part of God's elect under Christ's NT. Acts 10, Gentiles that obeyed also became part of that same elect.

In Rom 9:3 those Jews whom Paul lamtented over were lost for God had cut off ALL Israel, yet in Rom 10:1 those same Jews Paul said could still be saved if they would just obey God's righteousness, Rom 10:3. obey the gospel, Rom 10:16

So ALL Jews, Israel as a nation were God's elect under the OT, God then cut them all off and only those Jews that obey the gospel then became part of God's elect under Christ's NT.

So under the OT, ALL Jews, ALL of the nation of Israel was God's elect and ALL Gentiles (except for proselytes) were not of God's elect. So how could it be that ALL Jews, Israel as a nation of God's elect were ALL cut-off and the Gentiles who were ALL non-elect under the OT be grafted into the elect (Acts 10)?

SolaGratia · Jan 18, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
So when God cut-off Israel as a nation, that means every single individual Jew was then cut-off.

You believe that every single individual Jew was cut off?! It's a stretch to interpret Romans 11 that way, and it's clearly at odds with a lot of other scripture.

lforrest · Jan 18, 2014

What does a spiritual covenant have to do with nations? The new covenant is spiritual in nature. There are two different covenants, and to be elect in one or the other has very different meanings and ramifications.

Romans 7:11 was always applicable from the first day the law became known. Even before the law, a basic knowledge of good and evil condemned people.

The falling away of the Jews can mesh with Calvinism because it is all part of God's plan.
Romans 11:25 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”"

Quantrill · Jan 19, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
In Romans 9, Paul knows that God has cut-off His elect Jews and grafted in the once non-elect Gentiles (Rom 11:11-22) and in Romans 9 Paul refutes any argument the Jews would have against God doing this.

How does this casting off of elect and grafting in those once non-elect jibe with the idea of Calvinistic predestination?

Your opening statement is incorrect. The 'elect', whoever they are, Jew or Gentile or the Church or the angels, are never cut off because they are the elect. Nationaly, Israel has been set aside. But the elect Jews are still going to be saved during this Church age and they become part of the Church.

Instead of Rom.9 teaching that the Jews are cut off, as you say, it is teaching just the opposite. Which is why Paul put Romans Ch. 9-11 here in the first place. In Rom.8 he just got through giving the well known teaching of the security of the believer in Christ. That nothig could separate us from the love of God. That immediately would bring up the question to many as to 'what about the Jews'. They were given the promises, the Law, the Messiah. Yet now we see them cast aside. Paul is showing that Israel has only been cast aside nationaly. And that is only for a time because she will be brought back into her Covenant relationship in the future. Rom. 11:25.

And, in the mean time you must realize that not all the Israelites are considered Israelites by God. Rom. 9:6-7. "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, wich are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all childrden: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called." So Paul is making the clear statement that all the believing, the elect of God, shall never be cut off. And those elect Israelites, are secure in their salvation as members at this time in the Church.

Quantrill

Ernest T. Bass · Jan 19, 2014

SolaGratia said:
You believe that every single individual Jew was cut off?! It's a stretch to interpret Romans 11 that way, and it's clearly at odds with a lot of other scripture.

Absolutely. God cut-off the entire nation of Jews, every single, individual one.

Paul earlier explained who the true Jew is now Rom 2:28,29

Now under Christ's NT, the true Jew is NOT one outwardly, circumcised of the flesh but the true Jew is one inwardly, circumcision of the heart, see Col 2:11 Rom 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." Fleshly Israel is NOT the children of God, NOT the seed of promise now, but spiritual Jews (Christians) are the childen of God, are counted for the seed. Just fleshly descent from Abraham does not make one a child of God. Gal 3:26-28 shows how one becomes a child of God. So in Rom 9 Paul refutes the Jews argument they must be of God since they were fleshly descendants of Abraham as Paul points out God does not have to base His choices on fleshly descent. God can choose whom He decides to, He can even choose those once non-elect Gentiles if He wants to, as Paul alludes to in Rom 9:15.

Since all Israel was cut off then for a Jew to be saved he must be saved through Christ and become a true Jew, that is, obey the gospel of Christ by being water baptized, receive the "circumcision made without hands"

So under the OT all Jews, all of Israel was God's chosen and they were all cut-off and only those Jews that obeyed the gospel in Acts 2 by obeying Peter's words Acts 2:38 became a true Jew, part of God's elect. Those Jews (the majority) refused to obey and it is these Jews Paul laments over in Rom 9:3 but says these lost Jews could still be saved if they would submit/obey God's righteousness/commandments, 'but they have not all obeyed the gospel; Rom 10:16.

So those Jews/Pharisees you read about in the NT that were lost, they were lost NOT because of some capricious choice God made about certain individuals before the world began, they were lost due to their own free will in rejecting Christ and His gospel, 1 Thess 2:14-16

HammerStone · Jan 19, 2014

This is the most succinct article for making a case against the Calvinistic interpretation of the subject of election that I have found:
http://seedbed.com/feed/to-bless-the-nations-election-in-biblical-and-missional-perspective/

Now this throws a wrench in the Calvinist perspective that election is unconditional. Take, for example, the language of the Westminster Confession of Faith, which says that the number of the elect “is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.” From this point of view, there is a firm and fixed line drawn between those God has chosen and those he has passed by. The numbers of each group are unchangeable. Only the elect will be saved, and the reprobate will necessarily be consigned to eternal torment never knowing the joy of God’s blessing. The elect and the reprobate are related only through contrast. One is saved; the other lost. But given our above observations on Genesis 12, it appears that the language of Westminster takes the doctrine of election in a very different direction from that of the Bible, where the elect are related to the reprobate not merely in terms of contrast but instrumentally as the means by which the reprobate are blessed. If it’s true, as we’ve seen, that God chose Abraham’s family for the purpose of blessing the unchosen nations, then we should resist framing election in unconditional terms.

I won't be able to say it any better than O'Reilly did above, but essentially the elect are elect to reach the reprobate. I've read Romans 9 numerous times in my study, and I've just never been able to commit to the Calvinist interpretation of it wholly because something has always held me back. There has always been an overwhelming urge that this passage needs to be read in context, and I think the above article is the proper context.

Ernest T. Bass · Jan 19, 2014

lforrest said:
What does a spiritual covenant have to do with nations? The new covenant is spiritual in nature. There are two different covenants, and to be elect in one or the other has very different meanings and ramifications.

Romans 7:11 was always applicable from the first day the law became known. Even before the law, a basic knowledge of good and evil condemned people.

The falling away of the Jews can mesh with Calvinism because it is all part of God's plan.
Romans 11:25 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”"

The Jews were God's elect under the OT, yet this elect of God was cut off. The Gentiles were not of God's elect yet were grafted in under the NT.

Calvinism says before the world bean God choose certain individuals to be saved (elect) leaving the rest to be lost (non-elect) and nothing can change what God has already predetermined. Yet we have elect becoming non-elect (Jews) and non-elect becoming elect (Gentiles) and it was not based upon a random choice God made about individuals before the world began, but based on the obedience (or lack thereof) of men. The OT is a history of the Jews disobeying and rejecting God and when they rejected the Messiah, God finally cut off these elect people making them non-elect and God then made Christians His elect. Also the fact Jews fell from elect status disproves eternal security.

HammerStone said:
This is the most succinct article for making a case against the Calvinistic interpretation of the subject of election that I have found:
http://seedbed.com/feed/to-bless-the-nations-election-in-biblical-and-missional-perspective/

I won't be able to say it any better than O'Reilly did above, but essentially the elect are elect to reach the reprobate. I've read Romans 9 numerous times in my study, and I've just never been able to commit to the Calvinist interpretation of it wholly because something has always held me back. There has always been an overwhelming urge that this passage needs to be read in context, and I think the above article is the proper context.

Paul knew God had cutoff these once elect Jews and grafted in the once non-elect Gentiles, he makes that plain in Rom 11. Paul being a once zealous Jew himself as Saul knew this would not sit well with the Jews. So Rom 9 is an air-tight logical argument Paul made against any of the objections he knew the Jews would raise against God cutting them off and grafting in the those Gentile 'dogs'.

Paul knew the Jews' first and main objection was that they were Abraham's fleshly descendants therefore they MUST be God's children/elect. Paul uses the first part of Rom 9 to refute the idea that fleshly descent makes one a child of God. Paul uses the example of Edom (Esau) and Israel (Jacob). Edom (Esau) was as much a direct descendant of Abraham as was Israel (Jacob) yet Edom was not chosen. Therefore God does not have to choose anyone based on fleshly descent for God can have mercy upon whomever He chooses to have mercy, v15 even the Gentiles if God so chooses.

Quantrill said:
Your opening statement is incorrect. The 'elect', whoever they are, Jew or Gentile or the Church or the angels, are never cut off because they are the elect. Nationaly, Israel has been set aside. But the elect Jews are still going to be saved during this Church age and they become part of the Church.

Instead of Rom.9 teaching that the Jews are cut off, as you say, it is teaching just the opposite. Which is why Paul put Romans Ch. 9-11 here in the first place. In Rom.8 he just got through giving the well known teaching of the security of the believer in Christ. That nothig could separate us from the love of God. That immediately would bring up the question to many as to 'what about the Jews'. They were given the promises, the Law, the Messiah. Yet now we see them cast aside. Paul is showing that Israel has only been cast aside nationaly. And that is only for a time because she will be brought back into her Covenant relationship in the future. Rom. 11:25.

And, in the mean time you must realize that not all the Israelites are considered Israelites by God. Rom. 9:6-7. "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, wich are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all childrden: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called." So Paul is making the clear statement that all the believing, the elect of God, shall never be cut off. And those elect Israelites, are secure in their salvation as members at this time in the Church.

Quantrill

I disagree, Rom 11 says Israel was cutoff that is why Paul Rom 9:3 was saddened over the fact his kinsmen in the flesh, Jews, were lost, yet says they can still be saved if they would obey God's commands, obey the gospel, Rom 10:1-3, 16. If they were not cut off then why is Paul sad they are lost and in need of salvation? Paul even says "They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God.." Fleshy Jews were NO longer the children of God.

After Christ took away the OT and set up his NT, salvation is only through Christ and those cutoff Jews can now only be saved IN CHRIST, for there is no salvation outside of Christ.

lukethreesix · Jan 19, 2014

The election has nothing to do with salvation.
The Few are chosen, not unto salvation, but as (the few) laborers to bring in the Great Harvest of the Many.
Romans 9, is there to take all pride away from man.

aspen · Jan 19, 2014

i do not like the idea that God created a majority of throw away people and tells us to love them, while He hates them. seems crazy to me.

KingJ · Jan 20, 2014

Rom 9 (specifically verse 18-23) simply says God can do anything and there is nothing we can do about that. Fortunately for us we know what God has decided to do!! NT John 3:16. Whomsoever believe in Jesus will be saved and OT Psalm 51:17.

It is rather amazing how when God says He can do anything, that we then assume the worst :blink:. It is a forgiveable assumption as God is sovereign and our creator. But we simply cannot ignore the fact that God clearly defines Himself as impartial, good and just....which clash head on with Calvinist type assumptions.

Ernest T. Bass said:
After Christ took away the OT and set up his NT, salvation is only through Christ and those cutoff Jews can now only be saved IN CHRIST, for there is no salvation outside of Christ.

You had me thinking you were a false teacher until I read this

.

Quantrill · Jan 20, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
The Jews were God's elect under the OT, yet this elect of God was cut off. The Gentiles were not of God's elect yet were grafted in under the NT.

Calvinism says before the world bean God choose certain individuals to be saved (elect) leaving the rest to be lost (non-elect) and nothing can change what God has already predetermined. Yet we have elect becoming non-elect (Jews) and non-elect becoming elect (Gentiles) and it was not based upon a random choice God made about individuals before the world began, but based on the obedience (or lack thereof) of men. The OT is a history of the Jews disobeying and rejecting God and when they rejected the Messiah, God finally cut off these elect people making them non-elect and God then made Christians His elect. Also the fact Jews fell from elect status disproves eternal security.

Paul knew God had cutoff these once elect Jews and grafted in the once non-elect Gentiles, he makes that plain in Rom 11. Paul being a once zealous Jew himself as Saul knew this would not sit well with the Jews. So Rom 9 is an air-tight logical argument Paul made against any of the objections he knew the Jews would raise against God cutting them off and grafting in the those Gentile 'dogs'.

Paul knew the Jews' first and main objection was that they were Abraham's fleshly descendants therefore they MUST be God's children/elect. Paul uses the first part of Rom 9 to refute the idea that fleshly descent makes one a child of God. Paul uses the example of Edom (Esau) and Israel (Jacob). Edom (Esau) was as much a direct descendant of Abraham as was Israel (Jacob) yet Edom was not chosen. Therefore God does not have to choose anyone based on fleshly descent for God can have mercy upon whomever He chooses to have mercy, v15 even the Gentiles if God so chooses.

I disagree, Rom 11 says Israel was cutoff that is why Paul Rom 9:3 was saddened over the fact his kinsmen in the flesh, Jews, were lost, yet says they can still be saved if they would obey God's commands, obey the gospel, Rom 10:1-3, 16. If they were not cut off then why is Paul sad they are lost and in need of salvation? Paul even says "They which are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God.." Fleshy Jews were NO longer the children of God.

After Christ took away the OT and set up his NT, salvation is only through Christ and those cutoff Jews can now only be saved IN CHRIST, for there is no salvation outside of Christ.

Again, the elect of Israel were not cut off. Israel as a national people, on the whole, were set aside. But those who were and are elect in Israel, are still going to be saved.

Romans 11:1-7 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin....Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace....What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blilnded.

See. God did not cut off His elect. Those who were cut off were not the elect.

Christ didn't take away the Old Testament. He fuflilled the Mosaic Law.

Quantrill

Ernest T. Bass · Jan 20, 2014

Quantrill said:
Again, the elect of Israel were not cut off. Israel as a national people, on the whole, were set aside. But those who were and are elect in Israel, are still going to be saved.

Romans 11:1-7 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin....Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace....What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blilnded.

See. God did not cut off His elect. Those who were cut off were not the elect.

Christ didn't take away the Old Testament. He fuflilled the Mosaic Law.

Quantrill

Fleshly Israel was cast away, Rom 11:15, broken off, Rom 11:20 and was replaced by Christians as God's chosen, elect people. Even though God did cast fleshly Israel off as His chosen people, God did not cast them so far off that fleshly israel could not be saved. Fleshly Israel could obey Christ's gospel, as a remnant did in Acts 2 cf Rom 11:5 and be saved.

Rom 2:28,29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God"

Rom 9:8 "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Paul says fleshly Israel are NOT the children of God. In these two passages above, Paul explains that God's children, God's elect is not one outwardly of the flesh but inwardly in the spirit. So those Jews that obeyed the gospel in Acts 2 became a true Jew, one inwardly of the spirit, a Christian and became part of spiritual Israel which is the church. The rest of the Jews that refused to believe and obey Christ, Heb 5:9 were lost.

---------------

Col 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;"

Christ did take all the OT out of the way making it all inactive and ineffective, and replaced it with His NT gospel. The verb 'took' is perfect tense denoting an act done in the past with a continuing effect, in other words, Christ permanently took the OT out of the way.

The Hebrew writer said "He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second." Heb 10:9

The OT was phased out and replaced by the NT for both covenants could not continue on side by side for the many differences in covenants. Example; the OT was based on the blood of bull and goats and there was no justification whereas Christ's NT is based upon His blood where there is justification.

Christ was also to be a priest, yet he could not while the OT remained for He came from the tribe of Juda when the OT law only allowed priests to come from the tribe of Levi, Heb 7:14 so there must be a change in law for Christ to be Priest, Heb 7:12.

Matt 5:17,18 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Christ took the OT out of the way not by destroying it, but He took it out of the way by fulfilling it. Fulfill meaning to cease, to bring to an end.

Quantrill · Jan 20, 2014

Ernest T. Bass

Yes, because Israel rejected God, then she was cast aside. But the elect were not cast aside as they then became part of the Church. The point being, God never cast away any elect of Israel.

Yes, the true Jew, is the Israelite who has a heart toward God. Who believes in Christ.

Children of promise covers all the elect be they Israel or the Church. There were children of the flesh in Israel and children of promise. There are children of the flesh in the church today, and children of promise. Only the Children of Promise make up the true Israel or the true Church. And in the future when Israel as a nation turns to God, all of Israel will be children of promise.

The Church is not spiritual Israel.

Col. 2:9 speaks to the Law. Not the Old Testament. The Old Testament contains more than the Law. You have many prophecies yet to be fulfilled. It has not been done away with.

What do you mean there was no justification? Do you think anyone in the Old Testament was saved? How did they get saved?

Yes, there was a change in the Law. Not the Old Testament.

Quantrill

Ernest T. Bass · Jan 20, 2014

Quantrill said:
Ernest T. Bass

Yes, because Israel rejected God, then she was cast aside. But the elect were not cast aside as they then became part of the Church. The point being, God never cast away any elect of Israel.

Yes, the true Jew, is the Israelite who has a heart toward God. Who believes in Christ.

Children of promise covers all the elect be they Israel or the Church. There were children of the flesh in Israel and children of promise. There are children of the flesh in the church today, and children of promise. Only the Children of Promise make up the true Israel or the true Church. And in the future when Israel as a nation turns to God, all of Israel will be children of promise.

The Church is not spiritual Israel.

Col. 2:9 speaks to the Law. Not the Old Testament. The Old Testament contains more than the Law. You have many prophecies yet to be fulfilled. It has not been done away with.

What do you mean there was no justification? Do you think anyone in the Old Testament was saved? How did they get saved?

Yes, there was a change in the Law. Not the Old Testament.

Quantrill

All of fleshly Israel was cast aside and no fleshly Jew was of the elect, Rom 9:8...."They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"

Since fleshly Israel was replaced by Christians as God's elect, those Jews that obeyed the gospel and became Christians became part of God's elect. There was a remnant of Jews that became Christians in Acts 2 that Paul speaks of in Rom 11:5. If Jews are to be saved they will have to be saved through Christ in these today in these last days/last dispensation. There is no more dispensations, no 1000 year reign coming where they can be saved they must be saved through Christ in this last gospel dispensation.

Rom 2:28,29 Christians are spiritual Jews making the church spiritual Israel. Gal 6:16 the church is called the Israel of God.

Christ fulfilled the OT prophecies taking the OT out of the way as the Hebrew writer said he taketh away the first so he may establish the second. Christ could not be a priest with the OT still in effect, so it is gone. The OT was based on the blood of bulls and goats which could not remit sins therefore no justification if sins are not remitted. When Christ shed his blood on the cross, his blood flowed forwards and backwards. It flowed backwards to remit the sins of those under the OT who were obedient to God and flows forward to remit the sins of us today that obey the gospel of Christ.

Quantrill · Jan 21, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
All of fleshly Israel was cast aside and no fleshly Jew was of the elect, Rom 9:8...."They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God"

Since fleshly Israel was replaced by Christians as God's elect, those Jews that obeyed the gospel and became Christians became part of God's elect. There was a remnant of Jews that became Christians in Acts 2 that Paul speaks of in Rom 11:5. If Jews are to be saved they will have to be saved through Christ in these today in these last days/last dispensation. There is no more dispensations, no 1000 year reign coming where they can be saved they must be saved through Christ in this last gospel dispensation.

Rom 2:28,29 Christians are spiritual Jews making the church spiritual Israel. Gal 6:16 the church is called the Israel of God.

Christ fulfilled the OT prophecies taking the OT out of the way as the Hebrew writer said he taketh away the first so he may establish the second. Christ could not be a priest with the OT still in effect, so it is gone. The OT was based on the blood of bulls and goats which could not remit sins therefore no justification if sins are not remitted. When Christ shed his blood on the cross, his blood flowed forwards and backwards. It flowed backwards to remit the sins of those under the OT who were obedient to God and flows forward to remit the sins of us today that obey the gospel of Christ.

Yes, as I said, no elect were cut off by God. Which is what you originally were saying.

The Jews who were the elect were the elect before they came to Christ. That is what the elect means.

The remnant are the Jews who are elect and are part of the Church in this day.

The Israel of God in Gal. 6:16 is just that, the Israel of God. Not the Church.

Rom.2:28-29 is addressing the true Jew. That is the Jew who is born-again. The Jew who believes on Jesus Christ. It doesn't mean a Gentile becomes a Jew when he believes.

As I said, the Law was fulfilled. There is much in the Old Testament yet to be fulfilled. The Old Testament is not done away with.

Quantrill

Ernest T. Bass · Jan 21, 2014

Quantrill said:
Yes, as I said, no elect were cut off by God. Which is what you originally were saying.

The Jews who were the elect were the elect before they came to Christ. That is what the elect means.

The remnant are the Jews who are elect and are part of the Church in this day.

The Israel of God in Gal. 6:16 is just that, the Israel of God. Not the Church.

Rom.2:28-29 is addressing the true Jew. That is the Jew who is born-again. The Jew who believes on Jesus Christ. It doesn't mean a Gentile becomes a Jew when he believes.

As I said, the Law was fulfilled. There is much in the Old Testament yet to be fulfilled. The Old Testament is not done away with.

Quantrill

All fleshy Jews were cut off by God, Rom 9:8 and were no longer the children of God, Christians, not fleshly Jews, are God's chosen/elect now. So only those Jews (remnant Paul speaks of in Rom 11:5) that obeyed Christ's gospel in Acts 2 are part of the elect, the spiritual Jew and those multitude of Jews that rejected Christ were lost. But they could be saved as Paul says in Rom 10 if they would 'submit unto the righteousness of God' that is obey God's command to obey the gospel but they would not Rom 10:16

Gal 6:15,16 "For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

Paul says circumcision is nothing which is contrary to the OT law, but Paul says circumcision nothing but what matters is being a new creature, a new creature was not attainable under the OT law but is under the NT when one obeys the gospel becoming a Christian. Paul says let us walk by this rule, the rule being a NT rule not an OT rule.

"This benediction is not addressed to two distinct sets of persons (those who walk by this rule, and upon the Israel of God) but upon the same set of persons addressed in two ways, as if he had said, "Yea, upon the Israel of God" William Sanday

Paul was addressing Christians, the church in Gal 6:16 that is, the Israel of God. Again Rom 2:28,29 Paul says the true Jew is not of the flesh but of the spirit so fleshly Jews are not the elect, not the children of God Rom 9:8 spiritual Jews/Christians/spiritual Israel are now God's children/elect.

Rom 2:28,29 the born again Jew (Christian) is God's elect not the fleshly Jew.

All in the OT has been fulfilled and by Christ fulfilling it all it was then taken out of the way. It was taken out of the way for it is contrary to Christ's NT, Christ could not be a priest if the OT still exists and is in force.

Quantrill · Jan 21, 2014

Ernest T. Bass

Yes, again. The chldren of the flesh of Israel were cut off. But not the elect. Which was what you said. Now you are changing your tune.

No, the elect place faith in Christ because they are the elect. They are not elect because they placed faith in Christ.

The Gospel goes out to all. So what? What is your point?

OK, don't get cirucmucised.

The Israel of God is Israel. Not the Church of God.

No, there is no spritual Israel. The true Jew is the Jew who places faith in Chrst. Not a Gentile who places faith in Christ.

The Law has been fulfilled by Christ. Not all of the Old Testament. There is much yet to be fulfilled.

Quantrill

Ernest T. Bass · Jan 22, 2014

Quantrill said:
Ernest T. Bass

Yes, again. The chldren of the flesh of Israel were cut off. But not the elect. Which was what you said. Now you are changing your tune.

No, the elect place faith in Christ because they are the elect. They are not elect because they placed faith in Christ.

The Gospel goes out to all. So what? What is your point?

OK, don't get cirucmucised.

The Israel of God is Israel. Not the Church of God.

No, there is no spritual Israel. The true Jew is the Jew who places faith in Chrst. Not a Gentile who places faith in Christ.

The Law has been fulfilled by Christ. Not all of the Old Testament. There is much yet to be fulfilled.

Quantrill

Again, before the NT fleshly Israel was God's elect yet God cut fleshly Israel off and made Christian His elect. Rom 9:8 children of the flesh (fleshly Jews) are NOT the children of God. So those fleshly Jews that were cutoff, in order to be part of the elect, had to believe and obey Christ and become a Christian. Again, Christians are God's elect now, not fleshly Jews.

You posted "the elect place faith in Christ because they are the elect.."

This statement implies one is part of the elect (saved) BEFORE he has faith in Christ which is not possible. Faithlessness is a condemend condition, Jn 3:16-18 Mk 16:16. You impossibly have one part of the elect BEFORE he is of the elect.

The church is the Israel of God, Gal 6:16 If Gentilies cannot be a spiritual Jew Rom 2:29 then Gentiles are all lost. But we see from Acts 10 Gentiles became Christians and became part of the church, the Israel of God. This is because Christ "having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" Eph 2:15,16

So both Jew and Gentile are in the one body of Christ, the one church, the Israel of God.

Col 2:14; Heb 10:9 Christ took all the OT out of the way and neither verse says Christ left any of the OT in effect. Matt 5:18 if Christ did not fulfill the OT and take it out of the way then ALL of the OT law (every jot and tittle) is still in place and binding and you have a whole host of contradictions you can never resolve. Christ could not be a priest if the OT is still in place is just one.

Romans 9 Vs. Calvinism

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“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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