Headcoverings for women in church

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Selene

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Purity said:
Go over this thread and see how many agreed the head covering contains very deep spiritual lessons - I see you have not questioned their inspiration. What do you expect when a Catholic posts ECF tradition which boasts of authority but is found to be void of any wisdom and useless.
I have gone over this thread, and the only one who says that head covering contains deep spiritual lessons is YOU. One of your Protestant brothers cite "authority" as a reason for head covering during Paul's days (See Post #13). The other Protestant brother says that it appears that the rule of head covering was only in Paul's Church, and that head coverings have more to do with "control issues" in some churches. (See Post #3).

 

Purity

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I have gone over this thread, and the only one who says that head covering contains deep spiritual lessons is YOU. One of your Protestant brothers cite "authority" as a reason for head covering (See Post #13). The other Protestant brother says that it appears that the rule of head covering was only in Paul's Church, and the head coverings have more to do with "control issues". (See Post #3).
Only one? The author of the OP also appreciated those deep spiritual lessons and others have contributed to their importance also. I perceive something is going on here which is not forthcoming.

Selene, the head covering has been perceived incorrectly as man enforcing authority over the woman, however if you read the posts you will find this has been dealt with in highlighting the divine mind of this subject.

By carefully reading of our Bibles we can discern the Apostles teaching in relation to the reason for the covering, when they should be worn and where. The Corinthian ecclesia was relatively new and they experienced a wide range of issues. See the context of these issues which were affecting ecclesial worship (1 Cor. 11:17; 14:40)

Please also consider:

The phrase “in ecclesia” is mentioned only 4 times in NT and all are in 1 Corinthians 11:18, 14:19, 28, 35
The meaning is amplified by the phrase “When ye come together” … 1 Corinthians 11:17, 20, 33, 34; 14:23, 26
This is contrasted to events “in house” (at home) 1 Corinthians 11:22, 34; 14:35

If you resist these truths, which are not mine, for we can only be guided by what has been written for our learning - then I must ask you why do you resist the Scripture? Not to ask in a confronting way but to better understand your motivation and reasoning.

Look forward to your response.
Purity
 

Selene

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Purity said:
Only one? The author of the OP also appreciated those deep spiritual lessons and others have contributed to their importance also. I perceive something is going on here which is not forthcoming.
Was it not you who stated that Protestants were right and Catholics were wrong???? Or were you actually only referring to two Protestants under this thread???

You speak about the spirituality of wearing "head coverings"? Did you not even bother to read Mungo's post who is Catholic?? This is what it stated: Modesty is humility in dress and mannerism, an outward sign of the disposition of the inner man. By not standing out the Christian assumes a humble posture towards his neighbors.

Modesty and humility has to do with spirituality.

Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low; but honor shall uphold the humble in spirit.
 

Purity

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Selene said:

Was it not you who stated that Protestants were right and Catholics were wrong???? Or were you actually only referring to two Protestants under this thread???

You speak about the spirituality of wearing "head coverings"? Did you not even bother to read Mungo's post who is Catholic?? This is what it stated: Modesty is humility in dress and mannerism, an outward sign of the disposition of the inner man. By not standing out the Christian assumes a humble posture towards his neighbors.

Modesty and humility has to do with spirituality.

Proverbs 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low; but honor shall uphold the humble in spirit.
I did not state protestants or Catholics were right; only that the Word of God is right. I read Mungos thread and you will notice I left it alone hoping a greater truth would surface; however, I could not allow Dodo's post go unanswered as he was suggesting a tolerance of Catholic teaching on this subject which was clearly wrong.

We are not interested in human reasoning (above blue text) which aims to undermine the spiritual principles underpinning 1 Cor 11.

The divine order takes precedence over any tradition man can introduce.

Divine order – God, Christ, Man, Woman

Man reflects the glory of God – as seen in Jesus Christ – therefore must not conceal his head

Man was created to reflect God

Woman was made for man (from his rib)

She represents human glory – so “in ecclesia” she must be covered in respect of God’s glory (or be shaved bald)

Can you speak to the above order and confirm your understanding of it?
 

Mungo

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Purity said:
In this instance the protestant Christians held the correct teaching on the head covering - if you so desire, I could go through the RCC post and highlight the traditions of men but clearly you have certain sensitivities toward rebuking error, which in this instance fell on the RCC member.

You cannot take part in a forum and not expect to see error rebuked openly from the Word of God. Those who speak from catechisms will always come undone because they speak not according to the Word, as such there is no light in them.

Go over this thread and see how many agreed the head covering contains very deep spiritual lessons - I see you have not questioned their inspiration. What do you expect when a Catholic posts ECF tradition which boasts of authority but is found to be void of any wisdom and useless.

This can only be discarded to allow others to further provide Godly Wisdom on this subject. The RCC member can choose to open their Bible and follow the divine hand through His Word or go back to their Catholic catechisms and remain in darkness.

I do hope you stay and contribute further.

Purity
I think you have just made Selene's point.

A very negative, ignorant and quite unjustified attack on Catholics.
 

Purity

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Mungo said:
I think you have just made Selene's point.

A very negative, ignorant and quite unjustified attack on Catholics.
Mungo, the only points being made in this thread thus far have been Biblical ones.

Your reference link provided at the bottom of your post had this as a summary.

While it is absolutely clear to me that there is no canonical or moral obligation for women to wear a head-covering in Church, women are certainly free to do so as a matter of personal devotion. They should, however, see it as a sign of subordination to God, as that better suits the liturgical context. Those who wear a covering or veil, and those who don't, should not judge the motives of the other, but leave each woman free in a matter that is clearly not of obligation.

So the women should wear the covering as a sign of subordination to God, however other woman can do that which is right in their own eyes without correction in righteousness?

You call this equity in divine teaching?

Where in 1 Cor 11 does it teach the covering as a matter of personal devotion? Please explain how of the covering being a sign of subordination carries no moral obligation at all?

Mungo, if women are free to do as they please in this regard would you also suggest a man can cover his head? Can a woman usurp authority over a man in the Church? Could a woman Pope ever be appointed as head over the Church?

If you applied the same care free, do as you please attitude to Scripture, as is shown above, wouldn't we see division not only in doctrine, but also in standards.

Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water?[SIZE=80%] [/SIZE]Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water

In the masters service
Purity.
 

Mungo

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Purity said:
Mungo, the only points being made in this thread thus far have been Biblical ones.

Your reference link provided at the bottom of your post had this as a summary.

While it is absolutely clear to me that there is no canonical or moral obligation for women to wear a head-covering in Church, women are certainly free to do so as a matter of personal devotion. They should, however, see it as a sign of subordination to God, as that better suits the liturgical context. Those who wear a covering or veil, and those who don't, should not judge the motives of the other, but leave each woman free in a matter that is clearly not of obligation.

So the women should wear the covering as a sign of subordination to God, however other woman can do that which is right in their own eyes without correction in righteousness?

You call this equity in divine teaching?

Where in 1 Cor 11 does it teach the covering as a matter of personal devotion? Please explain how of the covering being a sign of subordination carries no moral obligation at all?

Mungo, if women are free to do as they please in this regard would you also suggest a man can cover his head? Can a woman usurp authority over a man in the Church? Could a woman Pope ever be appointed as head over the Church?

If you applied the same care free, do as you please attitude to Scripture, as is shown above, wouldn't we see division not only in doctrine, but also in standards.

Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water?[SIZE=80%] [/SIZE]Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water

In the masters service
Purity.
Your post was not biblical - just a negative, ignorant and quite unjustified attack on Catholics..
 

Purity

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Mungo said:
Your post was not biblical - just a negative, ignorant and quite unjustified attack on Catholics..
If the teaching is plainly false the rebuke, reproof and correction is justified.
 

Mungo

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Purity said:
If the teaching is plainly false the rebuke, reproof and correction is justified.
Apart from the issue of whether a teaching is false (whether "plainly" or not) the way a reproof or correction is made is important. Is it done politely or in a spiteful and negative manner?
 

Selene

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Purity said:
I did not state protestants or Catholics were right; only that the Word of God is right.

You did not state that Protestants or Catholics were right, only that the Word of God is right??? This is from your own post (See Post #20).


Purity, on 25 Jan 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

In this instance the protestant Christians held the correct teaching on the head covering - if you so desire, I could go through the RCC post and highlight the traditions of men but clearly you have certain sensitivities toward rebuking error, which in this instance fell on the RCC member.
 

Poppin

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Selene said:
What I emphasized in bold and underlined is the reason why I prefer to stay away from this forum board. Under this thread, not one negative word was said about the Protestant Christians. Only one person shared information about Catholic beliefs in head covering, which is in line with the topic of this OP.

And already one person said something negative about the RCC.. Isn't this topic supposed to be about head coverings???????????? So, ALL Catholics will go through great and terrible judgments just for being Catholic??? Catholics are also Christians. I am through with this board, and I am deleting all my blogs.
Selene, I am sorry you were hurt on this thread.
I was pleased that you replied to the topic. I do not say individual Catholics are not christians.
I believe the Lord has people in many cities :)
Thank you.
God bless,
Poppin
 

Purity

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Selene said:
You did not state that Protestants or Catholics were right, only that the Word of God is right??? This is from your own post (See Post #20).
Yes I did. Did you notice the emphasis?

"In this instance the protestants posting in this thread put forth the correct teaching"

That does not mean Mungo in another thread is not able to do likewise; for I do not know his mind or beliefs.

For the record, I did not say Catholics were not Christians, I did say the catechisms they live by would be removed as they do not expound the truth of the Bible. I am sure you disagree with some of their doctrine.

This is about honesty.
Purity

Mungo said:
Apart from the issue of whether a teaching is false (whether "plainly" or not) the way a reproof or correction is made is important. Is it done politely or in a spiteful and negative manner?
Correction in righteousness can be done gently or forcefully - I choose to act firmly on this issue as Christians need to know the truth on this subject.

I don't believe my words have been a sledge hammer but maybe a carpenters hammer ;)

Jer 23:29 (esv) says, Is not my word like … a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?” The Word of God is a hammer. Possibly as you are reading this, you have been thinking to yourself, The Bible has never been a fire or a sword to me. If that is true, it is because your heart has become very hard, and so the Word of God bounces off your heart like BBs hitting a concrete wall. You need to be very careful about a hard heart because if God can’t get to you with the fire or the sword, guess what? The hammer’s going to fall. God says, “My word … [is] like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces.” Many of those whose lives have been changed by the Word of God reference a time when their hearts were very hard, and God had to break them, and it was very painful. Nobody wants to meet the hammer of God’s Word bringing conviction and change. That is why the Scripture exhorts us, “Today, if you would hear His voice, do not harden your hearts” Psa 95:7-8 .

I am not so interested in your opinion of what the hammer looks like but rather are you listening?
 

Selene

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Purity said:
Yes I did. Did you notice the emphasis?

"In this instance the protestants posting in this thread put forth the correct teaching"
Don't you mean your teaching? Not all the Protestants under this thread said the same things as you did.

What I find ironic is that you are saying that the Protestants have the correct teaching on head coverings; yet, you do not even realize that many Catholic women are the ones wearing the head covering. In fact, many Catholics in the non-English speaking countries still wear head coverings today. How many Protestant women in your church do you see wearing head coverings??

There are still some Catholic women in my Church who still wear the veil. I am one of them. Head coverings among Protestants are very rare whereas many Catholic women to this day still wear the head coverings. In fact, Catholic nuns wear the head coverings, which we call the habit. It is very rare for Protestant women to wear head coverings; yet, you claim that Protestants have the correct teaching on head coverings.
 

horsecamp

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hi Selene where have you been? I missed your postings,,

I joy reading what you write as most

every time I am in agreement.

Paul even said we should follow the custom of the church we attend so not to cause divisions over things that are custom ..
head coverings is a good custom Catholic Lutheran Methodists women years ago all wore them,in the united states to showing respect for God over them. My wife noticed in Rome a few weeks ago. the younger Italian women do not wear them just of course the nuns and older women,, At least though the beautiful church's there ,young people and older people are asked to cover their selves up a little bit before they enter most of the Church's. some one visiting liturgical church's like the Catholic and Lutheran church often feel very out place because skimpy dress is at odds with the awe of God in liturgical worship..

ANY WAY GLAD YOUR POSTING AGAIN
 

Purity

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Selene said:
Don't you mean your teaching?
No Selene

Read the posts and see the principles of the head covering explained - this is not a difficult teaching; even Paul spells out headship without ambiguity in the initial verses of 1 Cor 11. I am still to hear your thoughts on them.


Not all the Protestants under this thread said the same things as you did.

Yes, but their sentiment comes through loud and clear. But if you disagree by all means put your understanding forward.



What I find ironic is that you are saying that the Protestants have the correct teaching on head coverings; yet, you do not even realize that many Catholic women are the ones wearing the head covering.

I didn't say Catholics do not wear head coverings.




In fact, many Catholics in the non-English speaking countries still wear head coverings today. How many Protestant women in your church do you see wearing head coverings?
Every sister in our ecclesia wears a head covering because they are taught the principles which have been partly expounded in this thread.



There are still some Catholic women in my Church who still wear the veil. I am one of them. Head coverings among Protestants are very rare whereas many Catholic women to this day still wear the head coverings. In fact, Catholic nuns wear the head coverings, which we call the habit. It is very rare for Protestant women to wear head coverings; yet, you claim that Protestants have the correct teaching on head coverings.

I agree with you entirely...few Christian women wear head coverings today - that's why its so encouraging to hear sisters here expressing an understanding which prompts them to cover their heads. Putting to side the fashion customs of day they can still see the spiritual significance in doing so.

But lets make one thing very clear about this discussion - 1 Cor 11 is NOT about women wearing hats or veils - its about headship!

As such she wears “a sign of authority” cp AV mg OR Power = “Exousia” – privilege, authority
Its used 98 times…always trans. “authority”
This symbol shows your willing, joyful acceptance of God’s role for you. Your covering is a symbol of your “power” or privilege to demonstrate the relationship of the ecclesia to Christ.

This is something a man (I) cannot do.

If the sister understood the incredible privilege she has been given to do something the men in her present cannot - humbling to say the least.

I should add to this Selene that God took away the multitude of shadows, types, ceremonial law and all the symbolic details of the Law of Moses; most of which the RCC has emulated in their false worship.

ONLY 3 Symbols remain for NT ecclesia's

1.Baptism
2.Bread and Wine
3.Head Covering

If you can think of more please let me know.
 

Mungo

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Purity said:
Correction in righteousness can be done gently or forcefully - I choose to act firmly on this issue as Christians need to know the truth on this subject.

I don't believe my words have been a sledge hammer but maybe a carpenters hammer ;)

Jer 23:29 (esv) says, Is not my word like … a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?” The Word of God is a hammer. Possibly as you are reading this, you have been thinking to yourself, The Bible has never been a fire or a sword to me. If that is true, it is because your heart has become very hard, and so the Word of God bounces off your heart like BBs hitting a concrete wall. You need to be very careful about a hard heart because if God can’t get to you with the fire or the sword, guess what? The hammer’s going to fall. God says, “My word … [is] like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces.” Many of those whose lives have been changed by the Word of God reference a time when their hearts were very hard, and God had to break them, and it was very painful. Nobody wants to meet the hammer of God’s Word bringing conviction and change. That is why the Scripture exhorts us, “Today, if you would hear His voice, do not harden your hearts” Psa 95:7-8 .

I am not so interested in your opinion of what the hammer looks like but rather are you listening?

Whatever you say. :rolleyes:
 

Selene

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horsecamp said:
hi Selene where have you been? I missed your postings,,

I joy reading what you write as most

every time I am in agreement.

Paul even said we should follow the custom of the church we attend so not to cause divisions over things that are custom ..
head coverings is a good custom Catholic Lutheran Methodists women years ago all wore them,in the united states to showing respect for God over them. My wife noticed in Rome a few weeks ago. the younger Italian women do not wear them just of course the nuns and older women,, At least though the beautiful church's there ,young people and older people are asked to cover their selves up a little bit before they enter most of the Church's. some one visiting liturgical church's like the Catholic and Lutheran church often feel very out place because skimpy dress is at odds with the awe of God in liturgical worship..

ANY WAY GLAD YOUR POSTING AGAIN

Hi Horsecamp,

I noticed the same thing on my island. It's the younger generation that doesn't wear the head coverings. My grandmother was a St. Francis of the Third Order, and she wears her attire and head covering to Church every Sunday. Below is a photo of my grandmother and what she used to Church all the time. She is a member of a religious order, and even today the sisters in the Third Order still wear their brown attire with head coverings. Some of the women on my island who belong to the Legion of Mary also wear head covering. I do not belong to any Catholic Order, but I continue to wear the veil to Church.
 

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Purity

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Whatever you say. :rolleyes:
Would you agree the use of the word "whatever" usually means you are not listening. It can also be used to show one does not care.
Definition: whatever

Used in an argument to admit that you are wrong without admitting it so the argument is over.

Man, whatever. :)
 

Mungo

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Purity said:
Would you agree the use of the word "whatever" usually means you are not listening. It can also be used to show one does not care.
Definition: whatever

Used in an argument to admit that you are wrong without admitting it so the argument is over.

Man, whatever. :)

If you say so O infallible one! :rolleyes: