The Tree of Knowledge

Arnie Manitoba · Jan 23, 2014

Somewhat off topic ..... but I think the issue in the garden was Satan's disobedience (he started it) .... and Adam and Eve were byproducts and side effects of his actions

if that is the case should we be putting all the blame on the first humans ???? .... I think not.

Same as us folks here today ... our sin started with Adam & Eve .... and Adam and Eve's sin started with Satan .... maybe we should put the blame on him .

Madad21 · Jan 23, 2014

i was thinking on Gods warning to Adam about dying if he eats of the tree, and others almost suggesting that he would not have understood what God meant in his warning.

I thought that it would make no sense that God would warn Adam knowing Adam had no knowledge by way of experience by which to compare.

But just reading through the Genesis account again I see words like "Livestock" amongst other words like "Wild animals" for example
Gen 1:24
And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so.

I never really gave it much thought before but Im wondering if there was the chance that there was death in the garden amongst the Animals. (ie Livestock for meat, wild Animals to watch out for, or at least for other animals to watch out for)

Now Im just spit balling here, so dont jump down my throat if you dont agree but.....
If there was in this way death in the garden, then Adam would by experience understand what God was saying if he had been a party to it by way of the following

- Livestock for meat
- wild animals outside of the garden to watch out for (ie protect the livestock from)
- Livestock for animal sacrifice (Because both Abel and Cain sacrificed to the Lord they had to have learnt it from somewhere and who else could teach them apart from their parents. It could be possible as a way of thanking or praising God Adam gave "Livestock for offering". im not talking about sin offering or anything like that Im talking about worship.

in Genesis the accounts show the animals including birds, livestock and wild animals were all created before Adam.
So we can note that such things as livestock and Wild Animals existed in the Garden before the fall of man.

Now if by Livestock one might say "for clothing like wool" then we know thats incorrect because it wasnt until after the fall was there any need for clothing. So this begs the question why "Livestock" at all if not for food. (unless you count of course dairy production which is also a possibility)

But what about "Wild Animals" A wild animal is typically an animal one can not tame. but a wild animal that you can not tame is also unpredictable and the use of the word "Wild" infers a predatory nature.

Regardless of his knowledge of neither good nor evil, Adam could have known what God means by "die". which might be why God says "die" instead of a words like "Sin" or "Evil" in his command to Adam, God himself knowing that Adam is already acquainted with death from his experience with the Animals.

Arnie Manitoba · Jan 23, 2014

.
Interesting things to ponder Madad .... thanks

Come to think of it .... didn't God clothe A&E with animal skins to cover their nakedness ... ?? .... if so , it would have required a (dead) animal

Madad21 · Jan 23, 2014

Arnie Manitoba said:
.
Interesting things to ponder Madad .... thanks

Come to think of it .... didn't God clothe A&E with animal skins to cover their nakedness ... ?? .... if so , it would have required a (dead) animal

LOL, I wonder how many skins he went through before Eve was happy.

Webers_Home · Jan 23, 2014

.
The Hebrew word translated "wild animals" in the NIV is chay (khah'-ee)
which essentially indicates a living, sentient critter with meat on its bones.
The very same word is used at Gen 2:7 in reference to the creation of homo
sapiens.

†. Gen 2:7 . . Yhvh God formed the man from the dust of the ground; and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a [chay]

chay is sometimes translated "life" for example:

†. Gen 2:7 . . Yhvh God formed the man from the dust of the ground; and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of [chay]

†. Gen 2:9 . . In the middle of the garden was the tree of [chay]

†. Gen 3:20 . . Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the
mother of all the [chay].

Sometimes chay is used to indicate all manner of non-human critters: birds;
bugs, and beasties.

†. Gen 8:17 . . Bring out every kind of [chay] that is with you-- the birds,
the animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground --so they can
multiply on the earth and be fruitful and increase in number upon it.

FYI: birds, bugs, beasties, and fishies too; didn't become "wild" till after the
Flood.

†. Gen 9:2 . .The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the
earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the
ground, and upon all the fish of the sea

Wildness was essential to the post-Flood animal kingdom's survival seeing
as how man soon became a carnivorous predator.

†. Gen 9:3 . . Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you.

Buen Camino
/

Selene · Jan 23, 2014

Arnie Manitoba said:
Somewhat off topic ..... but I think the issue in the garden was Satan's disobedience (he started it) .... and Adam and Eve were byproducts and side effects of his actions

if that is the case should we be putting all the blame on the first humans ???? .... I think not.

Same as us folks here today ... our sin started with Adam & Eve .... and Adam and Eve's sin started with Satan .... maybe we should put the blame on him .

Adam and Eve is responsible for what they did. Satan can tempt us into committing sins, but ultimately, the choice to sin is still our decision. We can always say "no" to temptation just as Christ did in the desert when Satan tempted Him.

Madad21 · Jan 23, 2014

Webers_Home said:
.
The Hebrew word translated "wild animals" in the NIV is chay (khah'-ee)
which essentially indicates a living, sentient critter with meat on its bones.
The very same word is used at Gen 2:7 in reference to the creation of homo
sapiens.

†. Gen 2:7 . . Yhvh God formed the man from the dust of the ground; and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a [chay]

chay is sometimes translated "life" for example:

†. Gen 2:7 . . Yhvh God formed the man from the dust of the ground; and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of [chay]

†. Gen 2:9 . . In the middle of the garden was the tree of [chay]

†. Gen 3:20 . . Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the
mother of all the [chay].

Sometimes chay is used to indicate all manner of non-human critters: birds;
bugs, and beasties.

†. Gen 8:17 . . Bring out every kind of [chay] that is with you-- the birds,
the animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground --so they can
multiply on the earth and be fruitful and increase in number upon it.

FYI: birds, bugs, beasties, and fishies too; didn't become "wild" till after the
Flood.

†. Gen 9:2 . .The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the
earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the
ground, and upon all the fish of the sea

Wildness was essential to the post-Flood animal kingdom's survival seeing
as how man soon became a carnivorous predator.

†. Gen 9:3 . . Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you.

Buen Camino
/

Good research

Still I wonder why God warned Adam in the way he did?
We all know God doesn't make mistakes, and I "personally" do not fully subscribe to the idea that we were simply destined to fall. Only because of the sequence of events in the cause and effect. (In saying that I haven't spent a great deal of time in Genesis)
But ie
-God warns man (This is the most important part)
- Dialogue between woman and snake (certain aspects about the dialogue makes me believe the events are literal and are meant literally)
-man eats fruit
-man aware of nakedness
-man hides from God (or man does not immediately seek God to confess and seek Gods help or forgiveness)
-man wont admit to his mistake
-man indirectly blames God (because of the woman you gave me)
-God punishes man.

Arnie Manitoba · Jan 23, 2014

Madad21 said:
LOL, I wonder how many skins he went through before Eve was happy.

.
LOL .... years ago when I first read ..... " The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them".... my first thoughts were ... God is not an animal rights activist

That was back in the days when society was protesting against the fur coat industry

Webers_Home · Jan 23, 2014

Madad21 said:
Still I wonder why God warned Adam in the way he did?

When the creator evaluated His handiwork at Gen 1:31, He rated that tree
"very good" right along with everything else in the cosmos; which tells me
that the tree had a legitimate place in the global environment just the same
as poison ivy, rattlesnakes, tarantulas, hemlock, quicksand, hornets,
lightening, ozone, UV sunlight, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, carbon
dioxide, hurricanes, typhoons, tornadoes, cyclones, uranium, lead,
mosquitoes, toadstools, etc.

In other words; the tree was neither a trap nor a test. It was natural; and God
warned the man to stay away from it just like anybody would warn kids not to
play with matches, pet strange dogs, or stick paper clips into 120v wall outlets.

Buen Camino
/

Arnie Manitoba · Jan 23, 2014

(Bible says) .... "Adam will surely die" ...... but not if he could have remained in the garden and continued eating from The Tree of Life .... that is why he was banished (from the garden) Genesis 3:22

The tree of life still exists .... it is mentioned in revelation .... and we will eat from it some day (and live forever) Rev 2:7

On a side note ....and kind of bizarre .... I wonder if Satan eats from the tree of life ...... and got A&E to eat from the tree of knowledge to see what would happen if they did

.... along with that (bizarre) thought .... the bible says some day Satan will be hurled to the earth .... he will be furious ... he knows his time is short .... is it because he no longer has access to the tree of life ?? Rev 12:9

KingJ · Jan 24, 2014

Arnie Manitoba said:
Somewhat off topic ..... but I think the issue in the garden was Satan's disobedience (he started it) .... and Adam and Eve were byproducts and side effects of his actions

if that is the case should we be putting all the blame on the first humans ???? .... I think not.

Same as us folks here today ... our sin started with Adam & Eve .... and Adam and Eve's sin started with Satan .... maybe we should put the blame on him .

Satan simply sped things up. We will suffer for our sins because we are guilty of them. That's also why I disagree with all who teach we inherited a sin nature. Growing up in an evil environment is not the same as us growing up evil.

Madad21 · Jan 24, 2014

Webers_Home said:
When the creator evaluated His handiwork at Gen 1:31, He rated that tree
"very good" right along with everything else in the cosmos; which tells me
that the tree had a legitimate place in the global environment just the same
as poison ivy, rattlesnakes, tarantulas, hemlock, quicksand, hornets,
lightening, ozone, UV sunlight, volcanoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, carbon
dioxide, hurricanes, typhoons, tornadoes, cyclones, uranium, lead,
mosquitoes, toadstools, etc.

In other words; the tree was neither a trap nor a test. It was natural; and God
warned the man to stay away from it just like anybody would warn kids not to
play with matches, pet strange dogs, or stick paper clips into 120v wall outlets.

Buen Camino
/

Hmmm
I think I understand what your saying and I apologize if I dont.

But its a strange thing for God to simply warn Adam about a poisonous tree he put in the Garden. I would think that the command (Which it was a command) not to eat of the tree was more authoritarian then just a kind of health warning.
Gods authority over man, the "command" itself being the most important issue, Mans subordination to the creator God.

And then Eves subordination to Adam is shown in the dialogue with the snake saying "We can not eat from the tree....nor touch the tree" where as God simply said to Adam not to eat the tree, in my mind the "dont touch" part was added by Adam when he conveyed the warning to Eve, saying something along the lines of "Look Eve just dont touch that tree or we will die."

Adam has the opportunity to stop whats happening with Eve and the mysterious talking snake, Eve being his subordinate.
But Adam just stands by and ignores Gods command (authority) and then goes even further by eating the fruit himself.

I would say Gods authority is key which along with it yields mans obedience to his creator and his faith and trust in God for all things including protection from evil.

There could have been a type of Job scenario between Satan and God, satan in this case being the victor as long as Adam didnt admitt to his mistake and turn to God for help instead of hiding and then lying about what happened.

Which of course brings up a whole lot of other questions.

KingJ said:
Satan simply sped things up. We will suffer for our sins because we are guilty of them. That's also why I disagree with all who teach we inherited a sin nature. Growing up in an evil environment is not the same as us growing up evil.

This is true

aspen · Jan 24, 2014

I think the sin was blaming others and refusing to be honest with God.

Boaz · Jan 30, 2014

snr5557 said:
No one has been able to answer this to my satisfaciton.

So, God said not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, because it would give them knowledge of good and evil right?

So, that must mean that Adam and Eve had no idea what was considered good or evil, what is right or wrong right?

So, when they commited the first sin by eating from the Tree of Knowledge, they did not know what they had done was wrong, and how can someone be punished for something they didn't know was wrong?

People will say, "They knew it was wrong to go against God." But, if they knew right from wrong from the beginning, the Tree of Knowledge was not really important.

Please provide textual evidence to prove your point, not just emotions.

Do a baby know right from wrong ?

DPMartin · Jan 31, 2014

snr5557 said:
No one has been able to answer this to my satisfaciton.

So, God said not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, because it would give them knowledge of good and evil right?

So, that must mean that Adam and Eve had no idea what was considered good or evil, what is right or wrong right?

No! Because they will die if they eat. It says that plainly, how is it that you read something else into it? The Lord God hates death, therefore a knowledge that is evil would have to be experiencing death.

So, when they commited the first sin by eating from the Tree of Knowledge, they did not know what they had done was wrong, and how can someone be punished for something they didn't know was wrong?

People will say, "They knew it was wrong to go against God." But, if they knew right from wrong from the beginning, the Tree of Knowledge was not really important.

Please provide textual evidence to prove your point, not just emotions.

　
Yes they did know, they trusted the words of the serpent and not the Word of God. It is man’s job if you will, to execute God’s Judgement in the earth, that is expressed to man in the Lord God’s Commandments to man. Note that what the Lord God said to them is stated to be this "Gen:2:16: And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,". God didn’t make Adam in the Garden, God made Adam and put the man in the Garden. An upgrade in life-style if you will. And there was an agreement between the man and his Maker, hence the commandment, but instead betrayed the agreement with the Creator and Judge and agreed with the serpent’s words, and sealed it with the eating of the fruit.
Note that salvation hinges on belief/trust that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior, the Son of God. What else did Jesus say about Himself, wasn’t it He is the living water, the bread of life, so on and so forth? Then truly as one eats, one agrees. And despite the delusional deceptions, erroneous theologies, of what is good and evil, and its relationship to the tree of knowledge of the same.
What is acceptable before God, is faith that is derived by the presence of His Grace. It was the same for Adam and Eve, it was the same for Noah, Abraham so on and so forth, to believe and or trust the Word of God. Their (Adam and Eve) trust and belief in the serpent’s words destroyed them and anyone who has received the life they had, meaning us, and it is the same, belief and trust in the Word of God, that restores us by being born again so as to receive the Life Jesus the Son of God has.

aspen · Jan 31, 2014

Have you guys ever thought of this idea......?

What if Jesus was the Tree of Life in the Garden? Think about it........Adam and Eve were separated from Christ at the time because they were unable to repent - which was illustrated by their request for clothes (ego, old man, false self)......God separated humanity in order to explain how forgiveness works

Just a thought

lukethreesix · Jan 31, 2014

Aspen, I love how you think...

Quantrill · Jan 31, 2014

I don't. But, birds of a feather.

Quantrill

Arnie Manitoba · Feb 1, 2014

aspen said:
Have you guys ever thought of this idea......?

What if Jesus was the Tree of Life in the Garden? Think about it........Adam and Eve were separated from Christ at the time because they were unable to repent - which was illustrated by their request for clothes (ego, old man, false self)......God separated humanity in order to explain how forgiveness works

Just a thought

It's thought provoking .... could be ...

DPMartin · Feb 1, 2014

aspen said:
Have you guys ever thought of this idea......?

What if Jesus was the Tree of Life in the Garden? Think about it........Adam and Eve were separated from Christ at the time because they were unable to repent - which was illustrated by their request for clothes (ego, old man, false self)......God separated humanity in order to explain how forgiveness works

Just a thought

Though that’s not so, for this reason:
Lk:3:38: Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

　
You are not that far off. Consider the scriptural evidence :
Mk:8:22: And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him.
23: And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
24: And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
25: After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Also:
Mt:12:33: Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Isn’t it so that he who was to eat of the Tree of Life was to live forever even after they ate of the tree of knowledge?
And isn’t it so, that he who believes on the name of Jesus Christ is to receive the same, even after he is a sinner?
Isn’t Jesus the Bread of Life and the Living Water, the Branch the Root so on and so forth?

To remain in the earth in the flesh one must consume bread, meat, water, sustenance that is of the earth. To remain in the Kingdom of God, or paradise of God, what is the sustenance required?
Rv:2:7: He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

******
Maybe it could be said that the fruits of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil came into the world via Adam and Eve, but the fruits of the Tree of Life came into the world via the Lord Jesus Christ.

　

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