Your Quote: Revelation 12 speaks about the devil going to war against the woman after he was cast out of heaven, and then after the earth had "swallowed the flood the devil sent against the woman" - which is symbolic of something - turning his attention to "the rest of her seed, who keep the comnmandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"
My answer: Why must it be symbolic of “something”? What would the normal reading tell you? It tells me that when those of believing Israel are fleeing to get to the eagle (plane) it will be in an area near a damn and the a/c will give the order (out of his mouth) to bust down the damn hoping to drown them but God creates an earthquake or something that splits the earth behind the those that are fleeing and the water goes down that instead of drowning those folks.
The bible tells us that satan is in heaven now acting ‘as the accuser of the brethren” and that he is the prince of the power of the air and that is when the demons hang out somewhere between our sky and space. There is no scripture that explains this which is why it should be taken literally.
Your quote: Just like you also start with preconceptions and then try to force them into the text. Newsflash: With the exception of chapter 12, everything from Revelation 4 to the end of the book is talking about what is yet to be fulfilled.
My answer: Generally speaking, I believe the KJ to be the most accurate regarding prophecy as a whole, except for the one flaw of Rev. 5:9. Out of 62 translations or so, only about a dozen still use the word “us”. Most have changed it in a manner that lets you know that they are angels singing about men, mankind, humanity, etc. I also believe the 24 elders are a hierarchy of the angels. So within that context it would consist of John’s present, not the future hence cp. 6. Everyone in heaven is clothed w/ white raiment.
I don’t see the 24 elders mentioned in Rev. 15, just seven angels and one of the four beasts. But what’s your point? Just because those from around the throne are mentioned in two different passages doesn’t mean they are the same thing.
Your quotes: Chapter 4: The twenty-four elders are clothed in white raiment & have crowns [stephanos] of gold on their heads (Revelation 4:4).
Chapter 15: Those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God (Revelation 15:2). *
My answer: Angels are clothed in white too, Rev. 15:6. The change from the martyrs being “under” the sea of glass to ‘standing” on the sea of glass simply means that the rapture/resurrection has occurred in the time between these two chapters. Rev. 7:9 gets my vote as there is no different group of “trib” saints, although Rev. 14:13-16 could be describing the same event, they are the still here church who are the “remnant of her seed” from Rev.12:17.
Your quote:* The same ones are seen seated on thrones in Revelation 20:4, and they are alive [zao] and reigning with Christ (Revelation 20:4-6), where John is told that this is the first resurrection of the body [anastasis].
There is no scriptural correlation connecting the 24 elders w/ those of Rev. 20. Why? Just because the word “thrones” is used?? You gotta dig deeper than that. Rev. 20:4 isn’t about the “timing” of the first resurrection. It’s describing “where” they came from.
Your quote” No one seals a blank scroll - the prophecies were written in the scroll, which was then sealed with seven seals. The loosening of the 7th seal opens the book (causes the scroll to unroll). The opening of the seals are "unveilings" (revelations) that unveil the events written in the scroll that were previously hidden to the knowledge and understanding of the churches of Jesus Christ. They are not themselves the prophesied events written about in the scroll.
- Jesus unveils them. That's why it's called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (Rev 1:1)
- and if you don't know that the events are written in the scroll, then you won't understand the symbolism seen in the seals.
My answer: This section really goes downhill. Most prophecy students believe this scroll to be the one mentioned in Dan. 12:4 - “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” You are partly right that the opening of the seals are unveilings, but of prophecies already given; awaiting the timing of God to be revealed.
The description of the scroll from Rev. 5:1 “And I saw upon the right hand of the one sitting upon the throne a book having been written within and without, having been sealed with seven seals.” Having been written “within and without" shows how the scroll was sealed and it wasn’t sealed w/ 7 seals going straight across the scroll. From the outside looking at it one would only see “one” seal. That is opened, the contents are read/revealed and then we come to the 2nd seal, etc. The word “signified” does “not” mean symbolized. It means “authenticated” which is what a seal would do similar to using a “signet” ring that declares the sealed document as having come from a specific individual. It’s called the Revelation” not because Christ was the author but because He is the one “worthy enough” to open the seals, one by one so what is written in the scroll is revealed one at a time in Rev. 6:1-17 and 8:1.
My answer: Why must it be symbolic of “something”? What would the normal reading tell you? It tells me that when those of believing Israel are fleeing to get to the eagle (plane) it will be in an area near a damn and the a/c will give the order (out of his mouth) to bust down the damn hoping to drown them but God creates an earthquake or something that splits the earth behind the those that are fleeing and the water goes down that instead of drowning those folks.
The bible tells us that satan is in heaven now acting ‘as the accuser of the brethren” and that he is the prince of the power of the air and that is when the demons hang out somewhere between our sky and space. There is no scripture that explains this which is why it should be taken literally.
Your quote: Just like you also start with preconceptions and then try to force them into the text. Newsflash: With the exception of chapter 12, everything from Revelation 4 to the end of the book is talking about what is yet to be fulfilled.
My answer: Generally speaking, I believe the KJ to be the most accurate regarding prophecy as a whole, except for the one flaw of Rev. 5:9. Out of 62 translations or so, only about a dozen still use the word “us”. Most have changed it in a manner that lets you know that they are angels singing about men, mankind, humanity, etc. I also believe the 24 elders are a hierarchy of the angels. So within that context it would consist of John’s present, not the future hence cp. 6. Everyone in heaven is clothed w/ white raiment.
I don’t see the 24 elders mentioned in Rev. 15, just seven angels and one of the four beasts. But what’s your point? Just because those from around the throne are mentioned in two different passages doesn’t mean they are the same thing.
Your quotes: Chapter 4: The twenty-four elders are clothed in white raiment & have crowns [stephanos] of gold on their heads (Revelation 4:4).
Chapter 15: Those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, are seen standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God (Revelation 15:2). *
My answer: Angels are clothed in white too, Rev. 15:6. The change from the martyrs being “under” the sea of glass to ‘standing” on the sea of glass simply means that the rapture/resurrection has occurred in the time between these two chapters. Rev. 7:9 gets my vote as there is no different group of “trib” saints, although Rev. 14:13-16 could be describing the same event, they are the still here church who are the “remnant of her seed” from Rev.12:17.
Your quote:* The same ones are seen seated on thrones in Revelation 20:4, and they are alive [zao] and reigning with Christ (Revelation 20:4-6), where John is told that this is the first resurrection of the body [anastasis].
There is no scriptural correlation connecting the 24 elders w/ those of Rev. 20. Why? Just because the word “thrones” is used?? You gotta dig deeper than that. Rev. 20:4 isn’t about the “timing” of the first resurrection. It’s describing “where” they came from.
Your quote” No one seals a blank scroll - the prophecies were written in the scroll, which was then sealed with seven seals. The loosening of the 7th seal opens the book (causes the scroll to unroll). The opening of the seals are "unveilings" (revelations) that unveil the events written in the scroll that were previously hidden to the knowledge and understanding of the churches of Jesus Christ. They are not themselves the prophesied events written about in the scroll.
- Jesus unveils them. That's why it's called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John" (Rev 1:1)
- and if you don't know that the events are written in the scroll, then you won't understand the symbolism seen in the seals.
My answer: This section really goes downhill. Most prophecy students believe this scroll to be the one mentioned in Dan. 12:4 - “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” You are partly right that the opening of the seals are unveilings, but of prophecies already given; awaiting the timing of God to be revealed.
The description of the scroll from Rev. 5:1 “And I saw upon the right hand of the one sitting upon the throne a book having been written within and without, having been sealed with seven seals.” Having been written “within and without" shows how the scroll was sealed and it wasn’t sealed w/ 7 seals going straight across the scroll. From the outside looking at it one would only see “one” seal. That is opened, the contents are read/revealed and then we come to the 2nd seal, etc. The word “signified” does “not” mean symbolized. It means “authenticated” which is what a seal would do similar to using a “signet” ring that declares the sealed document as having come from a specific individual. It’s called the Revelation” not because Christ was the author but because He is the one “worthy enough” to open the seals, one by one so what is written in the scroll is revealed one at a time in Rev. 6:1-17 and 8:1.
