I VERY much believe what the bible says, this is why I disagree with your understanding. The bible says that the price for sin is death. Period. It doesn't say that the penalty includes being tortured. God says nothing about it to Adam. Paul says nothing about it any where in his letters. In fact no where in the entire OT gives any clue to eternal torture. Jesus seems to say it, but I understand his teaching as an age (aion) of correction, not torture. Jesus is not a torturer, but a savior. Throughout the bible from the first page to the last, God declares by His own Name and for His own sake and pleasure, that every single person will bow and praise Him, all will come to Him and He will forgive them (Ps 65:2-3). God will be all in all, not all in some. God will wipe away all tears, not some. God will create all things new, not some. This is what the bible teaches: God will have all saved...He is the savior (the restorer) all the whole world (kosmos).
P.S.A. Are we sure?
- Thread starter lukethreesix
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So you believe that when God thinks that they have been separated or punished enough, he will give them a chance to redeem themselves while in hades? :huh:
In the meantime there are martyrs especially in Muslim countries today who are being tortured and hanged because of their belief in Jesus and will not renounce him or their testimony even unto death.
Also note Revelation 7 which you quote above:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”
1. They came out of the great tribulation
2. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.
What I am understanding is that you are saying that those who do not believe in Jesus, who die and go to hades - will sometime later be forgiven...which to me, seems a far better deal than those who have and are being persecuted, tortured and martyred because they do believe in Jesus even to death... :huh:
If that is what you are suggesting then why are you a Christian at all?
In the meantime there are martyrs especially in Muslim countries today who are being tortured and hanged because of their belief in Jesus and will not renounce him or their testimony even unto death.
Also note Revelation 7 which you quote above:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. 16 They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”
1. They came out of the great tribulation
2. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb.
What I am understanding is that you are saying that those who do not believe in Jesus, who die and go to hades - will sometime later be forgiven...which to me, seems a far better deal than those who have and are being persecuted, tortured and martyred because they do believe in Jesus even to death... :huh:
If that is what you are suggesting then why are you a Christian at all?
Those of us who have been blessed to receive faith in Christ here and now, in this life, and "willingly" follow Him (even unto death), then we will enjoy that first resurrection, who will reign and rule with Christ, judging the nations (those who don't believe now), we are they who Christ says will sit on His throne as He sits on His Fathers throne. Those who do not believe here and now will NOT be sitting on thrones but will be judged. They are not going to enjoy the "age-abiding" life Jesus promised His followers. However, all those who will later be judged, will eventually repent and fall in love with God as we have, but the rewards will be few. Look at Jonah 2:2, he is in "hell"(KJV) being afflicted "forever"(vs 6), but God hears his cry and saves him. Was Jonah's hell a literal place of eternal firery torture? Or was it a place of correction, a time for Jonah to repent of his rebellion? Look now at Rev 22:2, the tree of life is reintroduced after such an long time (since the garden), it is growing out of the water of life (which is offered to those outside the city in verse 15-17) and the leaves of the tree is for the healing of the nations(see also Ez 47:6-12). Do those in side the Holy City need healing? Ofcoarse not, but those outside (vs 15) are in need of healing. And they will be healed!
Listen Angelina, I know you have a good heart and longing to know God and the Truth. As do I...please pray that God opens to you His awesome plan to restore all things, yes all things! No, I don't think I know everything, but I do know that I believed as you do for 30+ years until God showed me this awesome truth. I love it when God shows me something new, and shows me how wrong I was yesterday. Every day God shows me something different, changing what I thought I knew. But this is how we grow, our walk with Christ cannot come if we cement our feet to a particular set of doctrines taught by men. no one can walk with cement shoes. I am always willing to say "oops! guess I had that wrong?" I don't need to be right, I want to learn the truth about Gods True Character taught to us through scripture, the life of Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
Listen Angelina, I know you have a good heart and longing to know God and the Truth. As do I...please pray that God opens to you His awesome plan to restore all things, yes all things! No, I don't think I know everything, but I do know that I believed as you do for 30+ years until God showed me this awesome truth. I love it when God shows me something new, and shows me how wrong I was yesterday. Every day God shows me something different, changing what I thought I knew. But this is how we grow, our walk with Christ cannot come if we cement our feet to a particular set of doctrines taught by men. no one can walk with cement shoes. I am always willing to say "oops! guess I had that wrong?" I don't need to be right, I want to learn the truth about Gods True Character taught to us through scripture, the life of Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
He was in the belly of a fish and was vomited out...he was not dead... :unsure: I do not believe that Revelation is in chronological order. We will agree to disagree on this matter however, I will leave you with this quote from CH. Mackintosh...
[The Judgment of Revelation 20] "Includes all the wicked dead from the days of Cain down to the last apostate from millennial glory. There will not be one there who has not passed through the article of death-- not one there whose name has been set down in life's fair Book-- not one there that shall not be judged according to his own very deeds-- not one there who shall not pass from the dread of realities of the Great White Throne into everlasting horrors and inneffable torments of the Lake of Fire that burneth with fire and brimstone. How awful! How terrible! How perfectly dreadful!" C.H. Mackintosh
Why take the risk...why not repent now, be reconciled to God now if you have backslidden or receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior, today. You have nothing to lose and everything in heaven and on earth to gain
Shalom and Blessings!
lukethreesix said:
No you don't.
Ps. 65:2-3 says nothing about every single person bowing and praising God and God forgiving them all.
Quantrill
Psalms 65:2-3, To you God (who hears prayers), all people will come and our transgression will be purged away.
Luke 3:6, All flesh will see salvation.
I Tim 2:4, God will have all men saved.
Phil 2:9-11, Every single person will bring glory to God and worship Christ.
Psalms 22:27, all people will turn to God and worship Him.
Isaiah 25:7-8, God will wipe away every tear off every face from every nation.
I could list 100 more....but I will finish with this:
Psalms 1:6, "The way of the wicked will perish." Tell me, if people are forever hating God, perverse, idol worshipers, immoral, murderers, and liars, (Rev 22:15) if people are like this forever, then their "ways" have not perished. They and their sin have been preserved, not destroyed? The way of the wicked will perish! NOT live on forever.
If hell is eternal, then so is sin and those who practice it. Man, what a bummer that would be if evil was never completely destroyed and overcome, but remained for all time to come and those who practice evil actually out numbered those who didn't. I have to be right or else Satan is victorious, because (although he may not get to deceive "the elect" anymore) he still gets to keep most of Gods creation in sin. That would truly suck!
Luke 3:6, All flesh will see salvation.
I Tim 2:4, God will have all men saved.
Phil 2:9-11, Every single person will bring glory to God and worship Christ.
Psalms 22:27, all people will turn to God and worship Him.
Isaiah 25:7-8, God will wipe away every tear off every face from every nation.
I could list 100 more....but I will finish with this:
Psalms 1:6, "The way of the wicked will perish." Tell me, if people are forever hating God, perverse, idol worshipers, immoral, murderers, and liars, (Rev 22:15) if people are like this forever, then their "ways" have not perished. They and their sin have been preserved, not destroyed? The way of the wicked will perish! NOT live on forever.
If hell is eternal, then so is sin and those who practice it. Man, what a bummer that would be if evil was never completely destroyed and overcome, but remained for all time to come and those who practice evil actually out numbered those who didn't. I have to be right or else Satan is victorious, because (although he may not get to deceive "the elect" anymore) he still gets to keep most of Gods creation in sin. That would truly suck!
I do not believe that the book of Revelation is in chronological order...
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Blessed are those who what? :huh:
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
He sends his angel to testify to the Churches and calls them to come and drink freely. The dogs, sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie, have no part to play in it. The timeline shows the new heaven and earth and the new Jerusalem while there are still ungodly existing. Revelation 21:6, 7, 8 says God will give the water of life freely to those who thirst and he who overcomes will inherit all things. Then in the very next sentence he says that the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
It just ain't gonna happen!
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Blessed are those who what? :huh:
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
He sends his angel to testify to the Churches and calls them to come and drink freely. The dogs, sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie, have no part to play in it. The timeline shows the new heaven and earth and the new Jerusalem while there are still ungodly existing. Revelation 21:6, 7, 8 says God will give the water of life freely to those who thirst and he who overcomes will inherit all things. Then in the very next sentence he says that the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
It just ain't gonna happen!
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, lukethreesix.
Listen: After God sent His ONLY Beloved Son to be the propitiation for sin forever and to perform the otherwise totally impossible for us at great expense, these guys say, "That's okay, God; no thanks; I'll get there on my own." Can you not understand the SLAP IN THE FACE that is to God?! And, they will stand before a HOLY GOD! Qadowsh! Qadowsh! QADOWSH!!! A God who WILL NOT tolerate sin! Have you never read Isaiah 66:24?
Isaiah 66:22-24
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
KJV
There are trophies and there are trophies! Some would like to see this verse go away; some stop reading at verse 23, but verse 24 is still there!
The wages of sin IS death, but that includes the SECOND death! Even if they are unconscious in the grave, they have YET to pay that price!lukethreesix said:
Listen: After God sent His ONLY Beloved Son to be the propitiation for sin forever and to perform the otherwise totally impossible for us at great expense, these guys say, "That's okay, God; no thanks; I'll get there on my own." Can you not understand the SLAP IN THE FACE that is to God?! And, they will stand before a HOLY GOD! Qadowsh! Qadowsh! QADOWSH!!! A God who WILL NOT tolerate sin! Have you never read Isaiah 66:24?
Isaiah 66:22-24
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
KJV
There are trophies and there are trophies! Some would like to see this verse go away; some stop reading at verse 23, but verse 24 is still there!
Only the Spirit can open your hearts, I can only say what I know. I'm not here to convince you, I'm here to be a voice to those who God has prepared their hearts to receive it.
Christianity is not a "members only" club. I find it funny (but not really) that too many Christians take the glory away from God and put salvation upon themselves....God is NOT dependent upon human desire to save humanity. He is both able and willing, NOTHING can stop Him (not even you).
Christianity is not a "members only" club. I find it funny (but not really) that too many Christians take the glory away from God and put salvation upon themselves....God is NOT dependent upon human desire to save humanity. He is both able and willing, NOTHING can stop Him (not even you).
You simply camp out on the word 'all'. 'All' is to be taken in the context. To 'all' those being addressed.lukethreesix said:
Ps.65:2-3 All shall flesh shall come to God one day when God creates a new Heaven and Earth. Not today. And those in the Lake of fire are no longer flesh.
Luke 3:6 Speaks to John the Baptist bringing the news of the coming King. Such a salvation was made visible to all in the person of Jesus Christ. Doesn't mean all are saved.
1Tim.2:4 God will have all men to be saved, but all men are not saved.
Phil.2:9-11 Even those who are cast into the Lake of Fire, will bow and confess that Jesus is Lord. Doesn't mean they are saved. The time for salvation through faith, is over.
Ps.22:27 Once the Kingdom is established then all the people of the earth will worship God and Christ. This doesn't mean everyone who disbelieved before are saved. And even in the Kingdom there will be those who don't want God or Christ, but they will worship him as during the Kingdom reign they will have no choice.
Is.25:7-8 Speaks to the Kingdom age when Christ will rule in Israel over the Earth. It is not Heaven. Read also 10-11. He is destroying Moab and the prideful. All are not saved.
The way of the wicked will perish off the earth and in Heaven in the end. They will not have their way in the Lake of Fire.
Quantrill
Dude, God did not create hearts too hard that His love cant soften them. Jer 32:27, Is any thing too hard for me?
Wasn't it Jesus who told us that all things are possible with God?
The difference between us is, I limit mans freedom to do as he wills, you limit Gods freedom to do as He wills.
Wasn't it Jesus who told us that all things are possible with God?
The difference between us is, I limit mans freedom to do as he wills, you limit Gods freedom to do as He wills.
There are some things that I feel that God wants to ease your heart about in relation to our discussion. There are many who have passed on who do not know the Lord personally. Some have known him and received him as Lord and there are others who have been presented with the gospel of salvation and have knowingly rejected it in their hearts. These ones God will individually judge. He is a righteous and holy Judge who knows each man's heart and will judge accordingly.
---------------------------
Then there are those who will be judged during and after the period of the beast system. This system is a universal one world system that will be controlled by the beast and his unholy ones. This system is not officially on earth yet but there is evidence of underlying moves toward it as nations begin to monitor and share personal information about it's citizens.
God will give mankind a chance to repent of their evil practices during this period of time when God most high begins to pour out his wrath upon the beast, his minions and all those who follow the beast but many will not repent of their sorceries and evil practices and will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire...The beast and the false prophet, Satan and all those whose names are not written in the lambs book of life will be destined for the lake of fire. God knows that their hearts will not change toward him, yet he gives them an opportunity to repent right to the very end...
Shalom!!!
---------------------------
Then there are those who will be judged during and after the period of the beast system. This system is a universal one world system that will be controlled by the beast and his unholy ones. This system is not officially on earth yet but there is evidence of underlying moves toward it as nations begin to monitor and share personal information about it's citizens.
God will give mankind a chance to repent of their evil practices during this period of time when God most high begins to pour out his wrath upon the beast, his minions and all those who follow the beast but many will not repent of their sorceries and evil practices and will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire...The beast and the false prophet, Satan and all those whose names are not written in the lambs book of life will be destined for the lake of fire. God knows that their hearts will not change toward him, yet he gives them an opportunity to repent right to the very end...
Shalom!!!
Retrobyter
Well-Known Member
Shalom, lukethreesix.
In your favor, I do admit that there are some who will be allowed to change their minds, even AFTER they have already died. Based on Zechariah 12 and Luke 3, the Jews who have passed on will have the chance to know the Messiah AFTER they have been resurrected.
Zechariah 12:7-14
7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of Adonai before them.
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”
They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB
Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB
Thus, these four families mentioned are VERTICALLY related in the family tree, not horizontally, and are EACH ancestors of Yeshua` (Jesus)! That's interesting to note, but when one goes back to Zechariah 12, one will also realize that they all mourn for Him as an only son or as a firstborn son TOGETHER (though apart) and at the SAME TIME! That means that the fulfillment of this portion of Zechariah 12 must take place AFTER the resurrection!
First, responding to a previous post, you've gotta understand that "salvation" is the WRONG WORD. It is rather "justification by God." As such, by the way, there is NOTHING that we can do to be righteous with God; God must DECLARE us to be "His righteousness," in SPITE of our sins, in order for us to be justified by God. If God decides that He doesn't want to justify a person because that person shows no interest in God and doesn't want anything to do with God, then that's GOD'S business! I'm not "limiting God's freedom to do as He wills"; I'm only reporting what I have seen from the evidence of God's Word. If God decides to surprise me in some way, that, too, is up to Him! I just know (also from the Scriptures' evidence) that God doesn't change His mind very often, and when He does, He is reacting to the change in a person's behavior and adopting a humble spirit.lukethreesix said:
In your favor, I do admit that there are some who will be allowed to change their minds, even AFTER they have already died. Based on Zechariah 12 and Luke 3, the Jews who have passed on will have the chance to know the Messiah AFTER they have been resurrected.
Zechariah 12:7-14
7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of Adonai before them.
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”
They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB
Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB
Thus, these four families mentioned are VERTICALLY related in the family tree, not horizontally, and are EACH ancestors of Yeshua` (Jesus)! That's interesting to note, but when one goes back to Zechariah 12, one will also realize that they all mourn for Him as an only son or as a firstborn son TOGETHER (though apart) and at the SAME TIME! That means that the fulfillment of this portion of Zechariah 12 must take place AFTER the resurrection!
I believe that this thread has run it's course... so unless someone has something more to say that has not already been said or is not repeating something already said...This thread is now closed.
Angie
Angie
- Status
