Creationism in science class rooms

Quantrill said:

You question the faith of the Christian when you attempt to discredit the Bible. When you make fun of Bible believing Christians who hold to the fundamentals of the faith. When you disparage the literal interpretation of Scriture. When you try and substitute the God of the Bible with your evolutionary god.

As I have said, you and other evoutionists have a two pronged agenda. You want to attempt to make evolution and Christianity compatible. But it's not. And you want to discredit the Bible. Because you have to, to make it compatible. But you can't.

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I'm kind of tired repeating myself on this, but again....."different than you" is not the same as "discrediting the Bible".

Wormwood said:

Here is my take on this entire debate. The very question of this forum is improper because it is built on a false foundation. The idea is that "religion" is somehow separate and distinct from "science." The very fact that someone can understand and interpret the world as an ontologically univocal being is, in fact, a religious presupposition.

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Very good point.

Unaided "reason" as an equal foundation for perceiving the world is a philosophical assumption made in classrooms every day.

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I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "unaided reason". Unaided by what?

We train our children every day that they can operate completely independently of religious belief. This assumption IS a religious belief.

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With what you said above, that's true. But in terms of education, it's because we know that empirical reasoning works. It's the entire reason why we are able to have this "conversation" using computers and the internet.

Why are we debating and arguing over which facts support our religious beliefs when the entire presuppositions behind this issue are based on false religious principles? Secularism is a positively created ideology, not something that exists when you strip away "faith" as we have been falsely led to believe. All experiences are interpreted experiences. This is a losing battle for all Christians because we have been shaped by secularist assumptions. There is no such thing as "the secular" and religiously neutral perceptions. There is only true and false worship.

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I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you arguing against non-religious education?

River Jordon

I asked what you believe about Jesus Christ? Have you already said? Where? Who is He?

Quantrill

I told you....I'm not responding to any more questioning of my faith.

River Jordan said:

I told you....I'm not responding to any more questioning of my faith.

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I bet...I haven't seen you talk much about Jesus and His love for us or your love for Him since you've been on this forum. Unless it was in some posts of your I haven't read. All I seen is you try to tell us that all of what He said isn't true. "Scientists said this so Jesus has to be wrong". "This looks like this so the men who wrote the Bible must've been mistaken". See how y'all sound. Who wrote the Bible??? God wrote the Bible. If you don't get that then I advise you to seek the Lord and not man and his devilish ideas.

This is getting kinda redundant now. If you love Jesus you'll believe His words.

I'll say this...God intentionally put things in the Bible that look "funny" especially for people who like to try and find holes in the Word. We walk by faith. Faith in His Word. We know He won't lead us wrong. How do we know? He is our Father. We are one with Him. We have the mind of Christ. Not the mind of man but the mind of Christ.

You know a tree by its fruit.

Blessings

I'd ask you to show where I've said "Scientists said this so Jesus has to be wrong" or "This looks like this so the men who wrote the Bible must've been mistaken", but you've already shown that you feel no moral obligation to back up your accusations against people.

Just blindly attack and move on.

River Jordan, do you believe in the creation account in Genesis??? Attack?? I'll expose a lie quick.

River Jordan said:

I told you....I'm not responding to any more questioning of my faith.

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Thils is a Christian forum. We respond to your non-Christian questions about our faith. Yet you refuse to respond to ours. Quite the hypocrit.

Again, a simple question. Who do you think Jesus Christ is?

Quantrill

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "unaided reason". Unaided by what?

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The secularist assumes a great deal about the nature of reason and their own existence. These are faith-based propositions. A univocal ontology is not based on scientific observation. The Scriptures teach otherwise (in Him all things live and move and have their being). Consider this quote by James Smith,

"Behind the politics of modernity (liberal, secular) is an epistemology (autonomous reason), which in turn is undergirded by an ontology (univocity and denial of participation). The modern turn to epistemology-and specifically, representational epistemologies-is predicated upon the shift to a univocal ontology."

With what you said above, that's true. But in terms of education, it's because we know that empirical reasoning works. It's the entire reason why we are able to have this "conversation" using computers and the internet.

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But why does empirical reasoning work? I am not questioning the validity of science. I am questioning the false premise that suggests that secularism is based out of scientific observation. There is no "secular." There is no place where God is not. God is not out there somewhere and he did not spin the world into existence and give us a univocal ontology by which to discover him by our own faculties. We exist because He exists and we cannot exist apart from Him. Moreover, intelligence is not something of a self-possession but something we are in every moment receiving by the grace of God. The secularist claims that reason is self-derived....and this is a faith-based proposition that is not congruent with the teaching of the Bible. At one time, theology was the queen of the sciences because all things were seen as a reflection of the divine mind...even our own faculties. A tree does not exist in and of itself but is a reflection of God. Thus, science, when done properly, is always about understanding God and worshipping Him. In any event, the notion of a "universal, natural, unaided human reason" is a proposition that is not based on science and is contrary to the teaching of God's Word.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Are you arguing against non-religious education?

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No, this is precisely my point. There is NO SUCH THING as a non-religious education. Secularism is a belief-system that has somehow slipped into classrooms under the guise of being related to science. To teach someone that they possess a universal, natural, unaided human reason by which they can examine things that exist in and of themselves is a religious belief. Secularism is based on a faulty epistemology. Yet we have been duped into thinking that because something is based in "reason" that is therefore separate from religion. We possess intelligence because God grants us intelligence. We must stop teaching our children that the creation is unhooked from the Creator to be flattened and labeled as if we know things as they are based on the labels we place on them. "Materialism and spiritualism are false alternatives."

Your assessment of the mindset of "fundies" seems to me to be a fallacy of genetics.

Your argument falls flat due to explaining why fundies feel the way they do, does not necessarily follow that the way they feel is incorrect.

In other words, it is not paranoia, if they really are out to get you.

I could give you verse after verse that explains fundie paranoia but you don't believe it so I will just save both of us time.

Creationism in science class rooms
I would give that a big amen . . .
ESPECIALLY the fact that all life is scientifically found to be triune and derives from a source of intelligence ........
the children deserve to know
hello all, new here .. post no. 1

Welcome dadman!

Mr. Bride and Quantrill,

I've already answered more than enough questions that are asked solely to raise the question of whether or not I'm a Christian. The only reason they're brought up at all is because folks can't counter my arguments, so they try and attack me personally.

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Wormwood,

Are you arguing that everything only exists in God's mind? IOW, you and I aren't really having this conversation, it's just God taking to Himself?

ChristianJuggarnaut said:

Your assessment of the mindset of "fundies" seems to me to be a fallacy of genetics.

Your argument falls flat due to explaining why fundies feel the way they do, does not necessarily follow that the way they feel is incorrect.

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I didn't say the way they feel is incorrect. I merely pointed out that the psychological factors behind fundamentalism help to explain much of the emotion behind many of the posts here.

In other words, it is not paranoia, if they really are out to get you.

I could give you verse after verse that explains fundie paranoia but you don't believe it so I will just save both of us time.

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Ok then.

River Jordan said:

The only reason they're brought up at all is because folks can't counter my arguments, so they try and attack me personally.

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Oh... coming from the one who constantly implies that creationists are flat-earthers, gencentricists, people who claim the sky isn't blue and so on...

Gee.. that doesn't sound hypocritical, does it?

If you don't like the heat then don't stand there with a blow-torch in your hand.

Except I show precisely how creationists are using the same logic and approach as geocentrists. Other than that......

Wormwood,

Are you arguing that everything only exists in God's mind? IOW, you and I aren't really having this conversation, it's just God taking to Himself?

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No that is not what I am saying.

River Jordan said:

You should read up on the psychology of fundamentalism. There's a lot of fear, anger, and resentment behind it all, and you can sense it in the posts of a lot of fundies. It also helps make sense of such posts, like KingJ's telling me that if I were at his church, I wouldn't be allowed to open my mouth.

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You would not be allowed to put the bible down in any Lutheran church either.. you forget Lutherans were right on the mark when they SAID elca REALY STANDS FOR --------------- Even Lesbians Can be Acolytes. PEOPLE WERE SHOCKED UNTILL NOW EVEN LESBIANS CAN BE YOUR PREACHERS TO. The point is your bishop Hanson has declared war on the creator of the universe and what he says sin is.. And your just one of bishop Hanson"s foot solders. that his teachings beguiled. elca promotes and defends baby's being murdered in there moms womb Homosexuality and evolution.. And even a denial that Jesus rose from the dead bodily.. and I can go right into your elca's church's own statements drag them up and prove it..

oh boy...

closed minds and closed hearts

Wormwood,

Then I guess I'm confused about what you're saying.

Well the fault is mine. I know these concepts and phrases are not commonplace. Let me try a different way of explaining it.

Secularism teaches that we all possess a universal, autonomous reason. As Decartes put it, "I think therefore I am." The only thing certain in life is my own logic. For the secularist, this logic is the foundation of how everything is known and this logic is self-derived. So, we all gather around and use our self-derived intellect to make sense of the world around us. We do this by observing things, labeling things and classifying things. You know, genus, phylum, species, etc. We have names for all kinds of things and through these names we claim to possess understanding of those things. Thus, religion is viewed as completely unnecessary for possessing knowledge. Reason is all that is necessary and that comes from ourselves. Also, this view is based on the idea that we are all ontologically univocal. This means that we all possess our own being. We are "individuals" who are self-sustained in a world that is self-sustained. In effect, the idea is that we and all of creation is completely independent from God. God created this world and us as something entirely other than himself and it all exists apart from him and independently of him. Of course, this is how the philosophical view started....then suddenly God was simply erased from the picture by the secularist.

The Bible teaches that intellect and reason are not self-possessed, but is a gift from God. Wisdom comes from God, not from us. My intelligence and even my every breath is a gift from God. I don't sustain myself, God sustains me. Reason is not rooted in nothing, but in the wisdom of God. Creation is not self-sustained. Rather, all creation exists because God exists. We do not exist apart from Him. I am not arguing for pantheism here, because creation is truly a gift that operates freely, but it still is not self-sustained. So, science, when done properly, is about understanding God. Creation is a reflection of God, not a reflection of itself. There is something deeper to reality than the mere substances themselves. So, it is an illegitimate idea to argue whether or not we should teach "creationism" is the public school. The fact that we can think, teach, understand and even exist is proof that God exists in my mind. And for someone to say that they can think, teach, or exist apart from God is not a scientific claim, but a faith-based claim. It is a philosophy, not a science that makes such claims. It is an act of faith to claim that there is an unaided, universal reason that all mankind operates out of in order to understand a world that is self-sustained and exists in and of itself (which may or may not carry proofs that it was created thousands or billions of years ago).

I don't think we should engage in such debates because the starting point is one that is well outside what the Bible teaches. The whole earth is filled with the glory of God. I hope this makes more sense.