Hi Retro. I'll have to post a little; then hope you post a little...other wise my post will be far too long (as as been pointed out.)
You've replied to specific issues, and i would like to respond to each.
Hopefully we can keep the discussion going without long posts - but i can't promise it!!
haha.
Let us remember to be kind and patient. I fail often at this, so forgive me in advance - Poppin
Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Poppin.
Well, yes and no. "Reincarnation" usually refers to one's inner being ("soul") being placed within another body - a different body, even to the point of a different species of creature. That's not scriptural. However, "RESURRECTION" IS a "reincarnation" of sorts. Your previous body will be replaced by a brand new body, one that can no longer die and can no longer decay, and your life will be restored. You are "put in a body again" - "re-in-carnated," "karnee" (pronounced "CAR-nay") meaning "flesh." Haven't you ever heard of a RESURRECTION?!
Pay close attention to this:
Zechariah 12:1-14
12:1 A prophecy, the word of Adonai concerning Isra’el — here is the message from Adonai, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth and formed the spirit inside human beings:
2 “I will make Yerushalayim a cup
that will stagger the surrounding peoples.
Even Y’hudah will be caught up
in the siege against Yerushalayim.
3 When that day comes, I will make Yerushalayim
a heavy stone for all the peoples.
All who try to lift it will hurt themselves,
and all the earth’s nations will be massed against her.
4 When that day comes,” says Adonai,
“I will strike all the horses with panic
and their riders with madness;
I will keep watch over Y’hudah,
but I will strike blind all the horses of the peoples.
5 The leaders of Y’hudah will say to themselves,
‘Those living in Yerushalayim are my strength
through Adonai-Tzva’ot their God.’
6 When that day comes,
I will make the leaders of Y’hudah
like a blazing fire pan in a pile of wood,
like a fiery torch among sheaves of grain;
they will devour all the surrounding peoples,
on the right and on the left.
Yerushalayim will be inhabited
in her own place, Yerushalayim.
7 Adonai will save the tents of Y’hudah first,
so that the glory of the house of David
and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim
will not appear greater than that of Y’hudah.
8 When that day comes, Adonai will defend
those living in Yerushalayim.
On that day, even someone who stumbles
will be like David;
and the house of David will be like God,
like the angel of Adonai before them.
9 “When that day comes, I will seek to destroy
all nations attacking Yerushalayim;
10 and I will pour out on the house of David
and on those living in Yerushalayim
a spirit of grace and prayer;
and they will look to me, whom they pierced.”
They will mourn for him
as one mourns for an only son;
they will be in bitterness on his behalf
like the bitterness for a firstborn son.
11 When that day comes, there will be
great mourning in Yerushalayim,
mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon
in the Megiddo Valley.
12 Then the land will mourn,
each family by itself —
the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
13 the family of the house of Levi by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the Shim‘i by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
14 all the remaining families, each by itself,
and their wives by themselves.
CJB
Luke 3:23-38
23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli,
24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef,
25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai,
26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim‘i, of Yosef, of Yodah,
27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z’rubavel, of Sh’altiel, of Neri,
28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er,
29 of Yeshua, of Eli‘ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi,
30 of Shim‘on, of Y’hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim,
31 of Mal’ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David,
32 of Yishai, of ‘Oved, of Bo‘az, of Salmon, of Nachshon,
33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y’hudah,
34 of Ya‘akov, of Yitz’chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor,
35 of S’rug, of Re‘u, of Peleg, of ‘Ever, of Shelah,
36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh,
37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal’el, of Keinan,
38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God.
CJB
These families listed in Zechariah are related to each other VERTICALLY in the family tree of Yeshua`! So, how can they all be together and mourn for Him, seeing Him pierced, if this isn't AFTER the Resurrection?
So beginning with your above detailed response (thank you!); my original question was.....based on your notion that ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED.
Which is why i asked :
So are you proposing reincarnation of some sort?
How else do you plan to have ALL Israel saved?"
Yes, I know what the resurrection is. That's not what I meant.
UNLESS you are actually suggesting that ALL ISRAEL (jews/israelites) throughout time will be raised to everlasting life based on their national affiliation. In other words, will they ALL be raised whether they accepted Jesus or not (let us consider the Hebrews 11 hall of faith - the apostates are not mentioned there...the ones who killed the prophets...are you saying they will be raised to eternal life - BECAUSE they were of Israel)?
RETRO:
Zechariah 12 was completely fulfilled.
You listing the families in Zechariah, and claiming (I assume) that because they are listed, every single member from that family is meant, i.e.:
"the family of the house of David by itself,
and their wives by themselves;
the family of the house of Natan by itself,
and their wives by themselves;"
....according to you means that EITHER:
ALL the MEMBERS of the families of Israel listed WERE AT THE CROSS; AND MOURNED
OR
At The Second Coming ALL the MEMBERS of the families of Israel listed WILL BE THERE (IN THE LAND ge ) and MOURN
OR
Ressurrected and THEN MOURNING AND BEING SAVED! < on what basis???
.....
both of these ideas are incorrect - UNLESS you use reincarnation somehow to have ALL/EVERY member of all the families (ALL ISRAEL) either at the cross or alive and waiting at the Second Advent.
OR.......
ALL, does not mean every single member of every Israelites family who ever lived was there or will be there (was saved; WILL BE SAVED).
That's never what is meant by "The Whole House of Israel"; etc.
It means the representatives living at each generation - and even within that, the reprobates and apostates and unfaithful are NOT INCLUDED "My People Israel".
GOD IS ONLY EVER DESCRIBING THE ELECTION/FAITHFUL...whether he bears with them until they repent or they are faithful anyway.
But not all were faithful - EVER...NOT AT ANY TIME.
-----
Still trying to clarify that ALL does NOT mean ALL (each and every one without exception) will be SAVED (or at the Cross, or in Jerusalem, or in Israel at the Second Coming, or would repent at the Second Coming,
OR will be resurrected unto everlasting life with a little crying for good measure because they didn't believe BEFORE THEY DIED!
Romans 9
God’s Sovereign Choice
1I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,a my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
1) Paul has made clear above that "For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,"
2) He has made clear he is filled with sorrow that many in Israel WILL NOT BE SAVED: "I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers,a my kinsmen according to the flesh."
3) He explains all the ADVANTAGES they had (vs 4-5), but we are told elsewhere (even in vs 3 above) that
those advantages DID NOT PROFIT the many:
Romans 3
God’s Righteousness Upheld
1
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2
Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What if
some were unfaithful? Does
their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
“That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged.”
5But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6
By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.
No One Is Righteous
9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:
6But
it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7
and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
cont:
http://biblehub.com/esv/romans/3.htm
(please do read entire chapter for context and clarity)
Paul is clearly NOT saying in his use of Esau & Jacob
to explain election that ALL ISRAEL is chosen regardless of their unfaithfulness.
He is not saying ALL Israel will be saved just because God loved the Patriarchs and because they had great advantages.
What is he saying?
For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel
This excludes Esau as the literal subject of Paul's polemic.
In fact, what he is doing is explaining God's CHOICE in election.
He is saying, as he did in the opening passage that his brother according to the flesh will NOT BE SAVED unless they believe in Christ.
HE LEVELS THE PLAYING FIELD FOR JEW AND GENTILES - IN SPITE OF THE JEWS' ADVANTAGE OF HAVING ALL THE FIRST PROMISES AND ORACLES.
Romans 3
19Now we know
that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
The Righteousness of God Through Faith
21But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since
God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
You are placing a special position for unbelieving jews (who you have NO WAY of showing are even of ancient Israel) in God's Plan that does not appear in the Bible (NT). You said "what? there IS A DISTICTION between jew and gentile OUTSIDE CHRIST - lost)....but the Bible does NOT say that.....after the Cross, there is NO DISTINCTION
inside or outside Christ.
Romans 3
For there is no distinction: 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood,
to be received by faith.
FAITH IN JESUS.
no reconciliation without it. for anyone.
next i will proceed to PROVE from scripture that Zechariah 12 was fulfilled by those who returned from the CAPTIVITY and is NOT a future event (with the ONLY exception that both jew and gentile are being saved and entering the church; the New Covenant daily and will do so right up until that last day...the ONLY way - FAITH....faith comes by hearing, and faith is in what we HOPE FOR, and what is UNSEEN).
if you (or anyone) could reply to this post, it will keep me from making it longer, since i very much want to keep addressing your assertions.
love Poppin.
---
RETRO:
Please look carefully at your assumption and assertion here:
"These families listed in Zechariah are related to each other VERTICALLY in the family tree of Yeshua`!
So, how can they all be together and mourn for Him, seeing Him pierced, if this isn't AFTER the Resurrection?"
So you see no way for this to be or have been fulfilled
unless it is AFTER the resurrection....since you think ALL ISRAEL MUST SAVED. regardless!!!
We will correct this, by comparing scripture with scripture.
we can already begin by comparing what Paul said here (illustrating the God chooses based on FAITH - NOT RACE/FLESH):
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring
with what he is saying here:
Galatians 4
Example of Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law? 22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was
born according to the flesh,
while the son of the free woman was born through promise.
24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written,
“Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear;
break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
than those of the one who has a husband.”
28Now you, brothers [BORN FROM ABOVE BELIEVERS JEW & GENTILE], like Isaac, are children of promise.
29
But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.
[HERE HE IS TALKING ABOUT UNBELIEVING ISRAEL PERSECUTING THE ISRAEL OF GOD - JEW AND GENTILE (children of promise), LIKE ISHMAEL (children of the flesh) DID TO ISAAC, WHO WAS ALSO BORN THROUGH A MIRACLE!]
30But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.” 31
So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman.
Paul has made clear ONLY those (JEW OR GENTILE) who believe, belong to Christ are heirs:
Galatians 4
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
SORRY AGAIN FOR THE LONG POST. i will refrain from continuing until someone else posts.
I have never seen a forum where you could not posts short consecutive posts...sorry! - Poppin
