Making Demands On The GIft Giver

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Poppin

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Ernest T. Bass said:
How do I get the keys title and car just by sitting at my house and doing nothing? Joe will not bring it to me, his conditons said I must go to him for the keys title and car.
John 6:37
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
didómi
http://biblehub.com/thayers/1325.htm

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
helkó
http://biblehub.com/thayers/1670.htm
 

Poppin

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Ernest T. Bass said:
God draws, men come.
That's what it says.
It also says no one can come (erchomai) http://biblehub.com/thayers/2064.htm. unless God draws [drags; leads; persuades] them TO THE SON.
It says all (pas) http://biblehub.com/thayers/3956.htm will (hékó) http://biblehub.com/thayers/2240.htm come (erchomai) http://biblehub.com/thayers/2064.htm.
Without exception.

Our God is Mighty to save, and the Trinity is working.
God is for us.
God Bless.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Jan 14, 2014
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Poppin said:
That's what it says.
It also says no one can come (erchomai) http://biblehub.com/thayers/2064.htm. unless God draws [drags; leads; persuades] them TO THE SON.
It says all (pas) http://biblehub.com/thayers/3956.htm will (hékó) http://biblehub.com/thayers/2240.htm come (erchomai) http://biblehub.com/thayers/2064.htm.
Without exception.

Our God is Mighty to save, and the Trinity is working.
God is for us.
God Bless.
The larger context says:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


God does His drawing by His written word the bible, nothing supernaturally irresistible about it at all. Men are taught God's word, they hear it and learn then they of their own free will choose to come to Christ.






More indepth, further reading on this passage:


The Divine Drawing

With a most emphatic thrust of truth, the Master Teacher said:

No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draws him: and I will raise him up in the last day. It is written in the prophets, “And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that has heard from the Father, and has learned, comes unto me” (6:44-45).

It is upon this passage that we pause to focus our attention. The following points are worthy of serious reflection.
It is important to note first of all that Jesus appeals to the Old Testament (Isaiah 54:13) to buttress his argument. The term “prophets” is a general reference, much as when we say, “The Bible says . . .” The expression “it is written” (found eighty-two times in the New Testament, including parallels) always refers to a divine document, the validity of which is unequivocally affirmed.

The first clause of this sentence, “No man can come unto me, except the Father that sent me draw him,” has been one of the most abused texts of the New Testament for many centuries. For example, John Calvin taught that man is “so enslaved by the yoke of sin, that he cannot of his own nature aim at good either in wish or actual pursuit” (1975a, 265). Thus one “cannot possibly come to Christ unless drawn by the Spirit.” He is drawn “both in mind and spirit exalted far above [his] own understanding” (Ibid., 500). The drawing is not indirectly through the Scriptures, but “inwardly by the Spirit” (Ibid., 277). God works in the elect so as to “guide, turn, and govern [their] heart by his Spirit” (Ibid., 269). The “grace of God is insipid to men, until the Holy Spirit gives it its savor” (1975b, 253).

A careful examination of the passage, however, reveals the following facts.

The statement, “No man can come to me [Christ], except the Father that sent me draw him,” is explicit. The only route to Christ is by means of the “drawing” of God. But that does not completely explain the issue. Two questions are paramount: (a) Is the “drawing” by God irresistible; i.e., is the divine drawing an appeal to man’s mind (intellect and emotion), or is it a force so strong as to bypass “free will”? ( B) Is the drawing miraculous, by the direct impulse of the Holy Spirit, or is it indirectly exerted through a divinely appointed means?

In his commentary on The Gospel According to John, the late Leon Morris argued that it is utterly impossible for a man to come to Christ on “his own volition”; rather God himself must initiate the action. He repudiated the idea that choice is “the free decision of man.” Calvin is quoted to the effect that the Spirit moves upon some, to turn them from unwilling to willing. It is alleged that God’s drawing power is always triumphant; it simply cannot be resisted (1995, 328-329).

This view is antagonistic to the teaching of the New Testament. First, the “drawing” is not by a force that is “irresistible,” as some claim (Sproul 1994, 69). Sproul cites Kittel on the word “draw” as meaning “an irresistible and supernatural force” (1964, 503), but this descriptive does not fit the biblical evidence. It is “commentary,” not “definition.” (For a discussion of the distinction between “draw” and “drag,” see: Trench 1890, section xxi; Vine 1991, on “drag”). If “draw” connoted an “irresistible force,” then all would be saved, for later in this Gospel narrative the Lord says: “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself” (12:32). The “drawing” is a beneficent pull. The Lord said to ancient Israel: “I have loved you with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn you” (Jeremiah 31:3; cf. Song of Solomon 1:4).

Second, in verse forty-five Jesus reveals precisely how God draws people to Christ. Quoting from the prophet Isaiah (54:13)—and possibly alluding to Jeremiah 31:34—the Lord employs four verbs to stress the personal volition of human beings and the method employed in their being “drawn” to him. They must be taught, hear, learn, and come. To ignore these inspired words is exegetically irresponsible.

(1) The term “taught” is from the adjective didaktos, found only twice in the Greek New Testament. The word has to do with “being taught, instructed” (Danker et al. 2000, 240). In 1 Corinthians 2:13 it is employed of the teaching that ultimately originates with the Holy Spirit but is made known by means of words through men who convey the message—either those inspired originally, or now by means of their words as recorded in Scripture. Professor Merrill Tenney wrote: “Verse 45 indicates that God would do his drawing through the Scriptures and that those who were obedient to God’s will as revealed in the Scriptures would come to Jesus” (1981, 76). Bernard observed that the “drawing” was by “being taught” (1928, 205).

Some appeal to 1 Thessalonians 4:9—“[Y]ou have no need to have any one write to you, for your yourselves have been taught of God”—in an attempt to establish the theory that the teaching is an internal, subjective instruction by the Spirit (Hiebert 1971, 178). The actual point here being made, however, is that the teaching regarding brotherly love had been done previously (in fact since their conversion and their comprehension that they all were “family” by virtue of a common “new birth”), and such an elementary matter did not need to be rehearsed in the present letter.

(2) The word “heard” is important for it is preliminary to “coming” to Christ. The verb is a past tense form of akouo. Mounce notes that there are at least five senses in which akouo is used in the New Testament. In this case, it is a hearing with a view to learning (2007, 327); to receive information about something (cf. Danker et al. 2000, 38).

(3) “Learn” derives from manthano, “to gain knowledge or skill by instruction” (Danker et al. 2000, 615). It involves more than mere exposure to information; it embraces the idea of processing that data. As Mounce observes, it “involves not only exposure to information but also comprehension” (2007, 397). It conveys the sense of “understanding” (cf. Matthew 9:13).
No one is qualified to “come to” Christ, or even needs to, if he is incompetent to understand the rudiments of the gospel (Romans 1:16). Paul’s statement in Romans 6:17 that gospel obedience is “from the heart” shows, among other things, “that our decision to surrender to God was our own choice and was not coerced or irresistibly imposed upon us” (Cottrell 1996, 413). This nullifies Calvinism’s dogma of predestination, and denominationalism’s practice of infant sprinkling.

(4) The fourth verb is “comes.” Only those who are “taught” the truth, listen intently with the motive of “learning,” and who understand the foundational elements of the gospel, are qualified to “come” to Christ. While “coming” is the result of God’s “drawing,” by means of revealed truth, the term contains the implication that one has the ability, when the preliminary requisites are satisfied, to come to the Lord. Coming is not the result of divine compulsion; it derives from an intellectual and emotional decision to surrender to the Savior.
Simple logic provides a clear picture of the process. God “draws”; people “come.” Those who “come,” however, are those who have been “taught,” who have “heard” and “learned.” Hence it is perfectly transparent that God “draws” sincere people by means of gospel instruction by which people are taught, hear, and learn.

Jesus invited the people of certain cities in Galilee to “come unto me” (Matthew 11:28), and that invitation had resident within it the implied ability to yield. Why invite those to come, who simply cannot, due to an alleged depravity that holds them incapacitated by sin? In the final days prior to his crucifixion, Christ wept over the city of Jerusalem, lamenting the fact that though he had longed to gather them under his protective care, they “would not” (Matthew 23:37). There is a vast difference between “would not” and “could not.” However, if a stubborn person practices “I won’t” long enough, it can become “I can’t” (John 12:39). See also John 5:40 and Revelation 22:17 for the matter of free will.
Conclusion
When John 6:44-45 is rescued from the morass of sectarian theology, it becomes thrillingly fresh, invigorating the soul with instructive principles that guide one through the correct processes to the redemption that is through Christ. Let us study this methodology, exhort our contemporaries to pursue it, and rejoice when they become our kinsmen in the Lord.

Sources/Footnotes
  • Bernard, J. H. 1928. A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to John. Vol. 1. Edinburgh, Scotland: T. & T. Clark.
  • Calvin, John. 1975a. Institutes of the Christian Religion. Vol. 1. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
  • Calvin, John. 1975b. Institutes of the Christian Religion. Vol. 2. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
  • Cottrell, Jack. 1996. The College Press NIV Commentary – Romans. Vol. 1. Joplin, MO: College Press.
  • Danker, F. W., et al. 2000. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament. Chicago, IL: University of Chicago.
  • Hiebert, D. Edmond. 1971. The Thessalonian Epistles. Chicago, IL: Moody.
  • Kittel, Gerhard, ed. 1964. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Vol. 2. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
  • Morris, Leon. 1995. The Gospel According to John – Revised Edition. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans.
  • Mounce, William D. 2007. Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
  • Sproul, R. C. 1994. Chosen By God. Wheaton, IL: Tyndale.
  • Tenney, Merrill. 1981. The Gospel of John – The Expositor’s Bible Commentary. Vol. 9. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.
  • Trench. R. C. 1890. Synonyms of the New Testament. London, England: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, & Co.
  • Vine, W. E. 1991. Amplified Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words. Iowa Falls, IA: World Publishing.
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1395-drawing-power-of-god-the
 

IBeMe

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snr5557:
If someone (Joe) gave me a car for free, I did nothing to earn the car for Joe is just giving me that car out of his good grace, yet Joe has put conditions on receiving that free car. The conditions for me to receive the free car is that I must go to Joe's house and pick up the title and keys then go to Joe's place of business and receive the car then and there.


Do I have a right to make demands on Joe the gift giver telling Joe I do not want to do any works. I just want to sit down at my house and do nothing and Joe can being the title, keys, and car to me?

If I did go to Joe's house and get the title and keys then go to his place of business to get the car, do those works mean that I have earned the car?
noun: a word or group of words that refers to a person, place, or thing or any syntactically similar word

Nouns don't do anything ... They are things.

"works" is a noun: (Theology) the deeds of a person; Moral or righteous acts or deeds:

"work" is a noun: Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something.

"faith" is a noun: something that is believed especially with strong conviction

"commandment" is a noun: a command or mandate. (command: To direct with authority; give orders to.)

"covenant" is a noun: a written agreement or promise usually under seal between two or more parties especially for the performance of some action

"works", "work", "faith", "commandment", "covenant"; are all nouns ... don't do anything ... can't save you

Grammatically and Biblically, faith without works (actions, deeds) is dead; nouns don't do anything.

We're saved by faith; but not without action on our part.
- must believe that Jesus is the Son of God
- must understand that we are sinners
- must ask

God has commandments ... We're subject to everything that Jesus said.

... the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

God offers a covenant...

... he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end ...

If we wilfully do what God says to do, or don't do what God says not to do; that's an action taken on our part.

God offers rewards to those who keep His covenant.

If we wilfully don't do what God says to do, or do what God says not to do; that's an action taken on our part.

Defiant actions break God's covenant.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

.
 

Poppin

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Ernest T. Bass said:
The larger context says:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


God does His drawing by His written word the bible, nothing supernaturally irresistible about it at all. Men are taught God's word, they hear it and learn then they of their own free will choose to come to Christ.
Greeting and grace to you in Jesus Christ.
I understand you are pelagian, and this is where we will disagree.
Define inherited sin-death anyway you like. ALL sin and die because sin entered in and through sin death - to all men.
that means all. It says all die because all have sinned - not because they eventually got corrupted. It says all have sinned and fallen short.

It seems you believe everyone is a Calvinist.
Why add irresistible (the I in TULIP).
In the process of your zeal for fighting against TULIP (which i myself do not adhere to), you are willing to downgrade the working of the Triune God in His purpose of saving.

Question: is there a supernatural working in the drawing
Question: Is the purpose of the drawing the salvation of souls
Question: Is it Gods will; purpose to save men through His drawing; teaching and regeneration.
Question: does it say that all that have been drawn and learned of the Father will come and will be saved

No one (without exception) has the dunamai (power or ability) to come to Christ unless (ean) The Father draws him to Christ.
dunamai
http://biblehub.com/thayers/1410.htm

ean
http://biblehub.com/thayers/1437.htm

Please address this portion, Ernest T. Bass.
Does it or does it not say NO ONE has the ability or power to come to Christ unless (if-ean-conditional) God draws him.

Men are taught God's word, they hear it and learn then they of their own free will choose to come to Christ.`
But The Bible says No one (without exception) has the dunamai to receive the things of the Spirit without supernatural intervention.

It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone (without exception) who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. No one (without exception) has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father

Question:
Will, and throughout time, all be taught of the Father, and without exception come to Christ. We know the answer is no.
No one (without exception) has the dunamai to receive the things of the Spirit without supernatural intervention.

----

Luke 10
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses (boulomai) to reveal him."
boulomai
http://biblehub.com/thayers/1014.htm

John 10
"But you do not believe because (hoti) you are not of My sheep
hoti
http://biblehub.com/thayers/3754.htm

what John 10 does not say is: But because (hoti) you do not believe, you are not of My sheep

-------

Ernest T. Bass, and everyone :)

Romans 8
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh
nomos
http://biblehub.com/thayers/3551.htm

Romans 7:23
but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.

hamartia
http://biblehub.com/thayers/266.htm
In this sense ἁμαρτία (equivalent to τό ἁμαρτάνειν) as a power exercising dominion over men (sin as a principle and power) is rhetorically represented as an imperial personage in the phrases ἁμαρτία βασιλεύει, κυριεύει, κατεργάζεται, Romans 5:21; Romans 6:12, 14; Romans 7:17, 20; δουλεύειν τῇ ἁμ. Romans 6:6; δοῦλος τῆς ἁμ.

Paul`s argument in Romans does not appear to say unregenerate men just decide to sin of their God-given free will, choosing evil over good for no explicable reason. This is what pelagianism does not resolve. The law of sin and death.

Paul appears to argue that the dominion sin has over men who has not been set free by the Divine (intervention), is a slave to the law of sin and death. The slave is in need of being set free, by God Himself. This is more than a minor indication that man has a natural inclination to sin which is bondage. He is a slave to it, unable to free himself. If he were able, and had the power dunamai
http://biblehub.com/thayers/1410.htm
he would not need to be set free.

Poppin.
 

FHII

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Once upon a time this thread was pretty good.... Now, it's just the same as every other thread Ernest T. Bass is in... A free will vs. God's will free-for-all.... Same arguement, different thread.

(Not ETB's fault necessarily.... It's just what has happened)
 

Poppin

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FHII said:
Once upon a time this thread was pretty good.... Now, it's just the same as every other thread Ernest T. Bass is in... A free will vs. God's will free-for-all.... Same arguement, different thread.

(Not ETB's fault necessarily.... It's just what has happened)
Sorry FHII.
I will desist.
Poppin
 

FHII

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No need to if that's what everyone wants to talk about. I was just looking forward to discussing the original topic.
 

Poppin

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Ernest T. Bass said:
If someone (Joe) gave me a car for free, I did nothing to earn the car for Joe is just giving me that car out of his good grace, yet Joe has put conditions on receiving that free car. The conditions for me to receive the free car is that I must go to Joe's house and pick up the title and keys then go to Joe's place of business and receive the car then and there.


Do I have a right to make demands on Joe the gift giver telling Joe I do not want to do any works. I just want to sit down at my house and do nothing and Joe can being the title, keys, and car to me?

If I did go to Joe's house and get the title and keys then go to his place of business to get the car, do those works mean that I have earned the car?
Actually, yes, Ernest T. Bass.
Having thought this through, the issue is not really works', but your use of the word "earned".
If you ponder the offer and decide to accept the car, you then do everything you need to do to get to Joe's house and receive the car, all of this by your own power. You either use your own resources to travel to Joe's; you arrange to take the day off work to get to Joe's; you defer some other thing (exchange) in order to make getting to Joe's a priority (since without you doing all those things, no matter how much you claim the car is a gift, you must work to get even to Joe's doorstep before the gift is available to you).

If you do not go to Joe's house to get the car, you do not get the car.
Going to Joe's house to get the car is the condition, and if you do the work to get to his house, it means you worked to get it, since you worked to get there (Joe's house).

Without deciding to go; preparing and arranging to; and doing all things needed (working) to get to Joe's you will not get the car (gift or no gift). So Joe has made you an offer, but Joe's condition is that you work to get to his house to receive the gift. So, at the end of the day, you did EARN the right to receive the gift, since once you have worked your way to Joe's house, he is obligated to give you the gift.

Unless there is another condition that Joe has, once you arrive at his house. Is there another condition?
Is there any possibility Joe can decide to go back on his offer of the car after you have all done all the work he required in order for you to even get to his house?
Poppin

edit: how does my reply relate to this (if it does):

John 1
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

edit: I looked again, and unbelievably, you have 2 conditions which must be met by the man before he gets the car - he must go first to one place (Joes' house) to receive the deed keys and title, then he must go to the place of business to get the car.

Question: is there any possibility Joe will not hand over the car once all that work has been done to supposedly not work for nor earn the right to the gift?
 

KingJ

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FHII said:
Does Joe place other conditions on me once I've done that? Does he tell me I must wash it once a week, I have to put only premium fuel in it? No girls allowed in the car and I must never smoke in it?

God doesn't! Yes, you still have to have faith, but I wonder if there's a difference in our opinions as to what other conditions you may believe are being placed on the free gift
It is obvious that there are no restrictions once we actually receive the gift. So the question is then when do we actually receive the car? When can we say ''we have made it?''

Like those who made it to Abraham's bosom. They ''made it''. They were just waiting for salvation / Jesus to fetch them.

Ernest T. Bass said:
If someone (Joe) gave me a car for free, I did nothing to earn the car for Joe is just giving me that car out of his good grace, yet Joe has put conditions on receiving that free car. The conditions for me to receive the free car is that I must go to Joe's house and pick up the title and keys then go to Joe's place of business and receive the car then and there.


Do I have a right to make demands on Joe the gift giver telling Joe I do not want to do any works. I just want to sit down at my house and do nothing and Joe can being the title, keys, and car to me?

If I did go to Joe's house and get the title and keys then go to his place of business to get the car, do those works mean that I have earned the car?
Good example. The example I use is...Salvation is Jesus giving us a free ticket to board an airplane that's called the cross. If we want to go be with Him, we take the ticket, travel to the airport and jump on. If we don't want to be with Him, we ignore His offer and stay where we are.

Many Christians are at the airport but not boarding the plane. The plane flies when the rapture takes place or we die 1 Cor 15:54. We know we are boarding the plane if we walk in the spirit and not the flesh Rom 8:13.

Under perfect conditions taking the ticket = driving to the airport and catching the plane. But since we are of our father the devil before we come to Jesus, we are liars!! We deceive ourselves and others. Hence we have to conclude that someone who claims to have the ticket and does not want to put in the effort to get to the airport, does simply not want to fly and does possibly not even have the ticket. As God the ticket master only gives it to people who really do want to catch the plane.

Hence we must not be too harsh on those that believe OSAS IF truly saved!
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Jan 14, 2014
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Poppin said:
Actually, yes, Ernest T. Bass.
Having thought this through, the issue is not really works', but your use of the word "earned".
If you ponder the offer and decide to accept the car, you then do everything you need to do to get to Joe's house and receive the car, all of this by your own power. You either use your own resources to travel to Joe's; you arrange to take the day off work to get to Joe's; you defer some other thing (exchange) in order to make getting to Joe's a priority (since without you doing all those things, no matter how much you claim the car is a gift, you must work to get even to Joe's doorstep before the gift is available to you).

If you do not go to Joe's house to get the car, you do not get the car.
Going to Joe's house to get the car is the condition, and if you do the work to get to his house, it means you worked to get it, since you worked to get there (Joe's house).

Without deciding to go; preparing and arranging to; and doing all things needed (working) to get to Joe's you will not get the car (gift or no gift). So Joe has made you an offer, but Joe's condition is that you work to get to his house to receive the gift. So, at the end of the day, you did EARN the right to receive the gift, since once you have worked your way to Joe's house, he is obligated to give you the gift.

Unless there is another condition that Joe has, once you arrive at his house. Is there another condition?
Is there any possibility Joe can decide to go back on his offer of the car after you have all done all the work he required in order for you to even get to his house?
Poppin

edit: how does my reply relate to this (if it does):

John 1
11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

edit: I looked again, and unbelievably, you have 2 conditions which must be met by the man before he gets the car - he must go first to one place (Joes' house) to receive the deed keys and title, then he must go to the place of business to get the car.

Question: is there any possibility Joe will not hand over the car once all that work has been done to supposedly not work for nor earn the right to the gift?
Since Naaman went to the river to dip then he earned God's grace to be healed?

When a gift is offered to you up front for free then there is othing you can ever do to earn that free gift. The most you can do is meet the conditions, if any, that are placed upon the gift.

You posted "Without deciding to go; preparing and arranging to; and doing all things needed (working) to get to Joe's you will not get the car (gift or no gift). So Joe has made you an offer, but Joe's condition is that you work to get to his house to receive the gift. So, at the end of the day, you did EARN the right to receive the gift, since once you have worked your way to Joe's house, he is obligated to give you the gift."


Again, you cannot earn the car if it was already given to you up front for free. If you were not offered the free gift up front for free, then there is no reason to go to Joe's house for there would be no title and key, no free car to get. So going to Joe's house still earned you nothing. If you wanted the free car and met the conditions and got the car and a friend asked you where did you get the car, and you told them you earned it, would you be telling them the truth? No. Again, Joe offered the car for free up front and if he had not made this free offer then you would not have the car, for no matter how many times you went to Joe's house there would be no keys, no title, no car.


If you do tell your friend you earned the car, then what did you do to earn the car? If you tell your firend you earend the car when you went to Joe's house to get the keys and title, then how did that earn a car that was ALREADY OFFERED to you for free BEFORE you did anything?

Joe promised you the free car and if you met the conditions then Joe would have to give you the car else he is a liar. Still does not mean you earned the car.

KingJ said:
It is obvious that there are no restrictions once we actually receive the gift. So the question is then when do we actually receive the car? When can we say ''we have made it?''

Like those who made it to Abraham's bosom. They ''made it''. They were just waiting for salvation / Jesus to fetch them.


Good example. The example I use is...Salvation is Jesus giving us a free ticket to board an airplane that's called the cross. If we want to go be with Him, we take the ticket, travel to the airport and jump on. If we don't want to be with Him, we ignore His offer and stay where we are.

Many Christians are at the airport but not boarding the plane. The plane flies when the rapture takes place or we die 1 Cor 15:54. We know we are boarding the plane if we walk in the spirit and not the flesh Rom 8:13.

Under perfect conditions taking the ticket = driving to the airport and catching the plane. But since we are of our father the devil before we come to Jesus, we are liars!! We deceive ourselves and others. Hence we have to conclude that someone who claims to have the ticket and does not want to put in the effort to get to the airport, does simply not want to fly and does possibly not even have the ticket. As God the ticket master only gives it to people who really do want to catch the plane.

Hence we must not be too harsh on those that believe OSAS IF truly saved!
One can give back or forfeit a free gift if he decides he does not want it anymore. For example, one condition God put upon the free gift of salvation is a continued belief. One cannot just believe one time or sporadically, the belief must be one lives everyday for life. If one quits believing, he then no longer meets one of the conditions of the free gift therefore he forfeits, gives back, throws away the free gift. The example, I gave about Joe and the free car did not have a sustained condition as God has put upon the gift of salvation but the example I gave was only meant to show one can do works but those works in no way earns the gift.

I could have added to my example that one of the conditions Joe put upon receiving the free car is that it must be kept clean. Therefore allowing the care to become dirty (quits believing) then is the same as forfeiting the free car.
 

aspen

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I think Poppin is right about the use of the word 'earn'. I totally agree that we do not under any circumstances, earn our salvation/redemption/transformation, but I do believe our relationship with Christ involves work. Perhaps this is the slavery aspect of Christianity that we all discussed a few weeks ago on the board - work without pay. God allows us to be involved in our sanctification and transformation sort of like farmers, who do nothing to produce their crops, but work very hard to cultivate them. Farmers my profit from their crops, but they do not earn their yield.
 

FHII

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Again, I do believe it does take work, as Apsen said. The difference is that they are spiritual works and not works of the flesh or the Law of Moses. Personally, I prefer to say, "works of the flesh" because Moses did command to worship the Lord only. But the Bible does say we are no longer under the law of Moses.
 

aspen

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I agree with you FHII, but I am running into a problem with the works faith debate. I think it is outdated. I think it was extremely relevant to 1st century, Jewish converts, but today, we have hammered it so far into the ground that people use it to justify easy salvation or only to distinguish Protestantism from other religions. I cannot count how many times I have heard sermons and Christian laypersons make a point about how Protestantism must be true because it is the only religion that relies totally on faith and not works. It is not even logical - unique does not equal correct. Perhaps I am just bored of the topic - I have been accused before of believing that everyone has learned the same lessons I have learned.

I guess I have no problem with faith and works being part of the same process - as long as we recognize we are not earning anything.

My question is - is there anyone out there who believes we earn our salvation? If so, please respond and tell me why you believe it.
 

KingJ

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Ernest T. Bass said:
One can give back or forfeit a free gift if he decides he does not want it anymore. For example, one condition God put upon the free gift of salvation is a continued belief. One cannot just believe one time or sporadically, the belief must be one lives everyday for life. If one quits believing, he then no longer meets one of the conditions of the free gift therefore he forfeits, gives back, throws away the free gift. The example, I gave about Joe and the free car did not have a sustained condition as God has put upon the gift of salvation but the example I gave was only meant to show one can do works but those works in no way earns the gift.

I could have added to my example that one of the conditions Joe put upon receiving the free car is that it must be kept clean. Therefore allowing the care to become dirty (quits believing) then is the same as forfeiting the free car.
We can't quit believing. If we have tasted of Jesus we have tasted of Jesus. But I am sure you meant believing and carrying our cross.

What your example excludes is the fact that 'Joe' is given the car by God, not just some person. God examines the mind and the heart beyond what we can imagine. God only gives the car if He knows it is wanted and will be looked after. I think a wife would make for a better example. Anyway, my point is that since God gives the car, OSAS IF truly saved becomes very viable. God does not make mistakes. God gives us a revelation of Jesus only if we have the Holy Spirit after drawing close to Him James 4:8 and 1 Cor 12:3. We draw close to Him by following Matt 16:24.

Conclusion...seeing someone in mortal sins can be someone making shipwreck of their Christianity or it can be that they were never truly saved. Both are very viable options with only a thin line separating them! It really is a very thin line. There really is no reason to have lengthy discussions on this.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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FHII said:
Again, I do believe it does take work, as Apsen said. The difference is that they are spiritual works and not works of the flesh or the Law of Moses. Personally, I prefer to say, "works of the flesh" because Moses did command to worship the Lord only. But the Bible does say we are no longer under the law of Moses.
THe type of works God has made HIs gift of salvation condtional upon are obedient works, not works of the flesh. Belief, repentance, confession and baptism are obedience, not works of the flesh. As Peter said in Acts 10:35 "But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him"
KingJ said:
We can't quit believing. If we have tasted of Jesus we have tasted of Jesus. But I am sure you meant believing and carrying our cross.

What your example excludes is the fact that 'Joe' is given the car by God, not just some person. God examines the mind and the heart beyond what we can imagine. God only gives the car if He knows it is wanted and will be looked after. I think a wife would make for a better example. Anyway, my point is that since God gives the car, OSAS IF truly saved becomes very viable. God does not make mistakes. God gives us a revelation of Jesus only if we have the Holy Spirit after drawing close to Him James 4:8 and 1 Cor 12:3. We draw close to Him by following Matt 16:24.

Conclusion...seeing someone in mortal sins can be someone making shipwreck of their Christianity or it can be that they were never truly saved. Both are very viable options with only a thin line separating them! It really is a very thin line. There really is no reason to have lengthy discussions on this.
One believes by choice and certainly can quit beliving by choice.

1 Tim 5:12 "...they have cast off their first faith"

Heb 3:12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God."

Salvation is promised and given to ANYONE that meets, and continues to meet, the conditions place upon the gift. And God does not decide for people who will or not meet, and continue to meet, those conditions. The free gift is made available to all and just because one meets the conditions and recieves the gift today but some time down the road no longer meets the condition, that consitutes no mistake upon God's part. It consitutes faithlessness on man's part.


The "they never were truly saved" does not work. From 1 Tim 5:12 how can one cast away faith? He must have first had faith to cast it away? Heb 3:12 how can one depart from the living God in unbelief if he were ALWAY apart from God in unbelief? Luke in Acts tells us Judas fell by transgression. How can he fall if he were always fallen, always in trangression? Where does one always fallen fall to? Jesus' parable of Lk 13:8ff among many other passgaes show one can fall away from belief.