How can the body of Christ function properly without eyes and ears?

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Wormwood

Chaps
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Well, that's just the thing Michael, you keep sending mixed signals.

1. You claim "I didn't identify the gift in myself" but that others "told you" you were a prophet.

2. Then you say, "I was called by God, I was trained by God, and I was sent by God."

So which is it? Did God call you a prophet or did your friends have to tell you that you were one?

1. You claim "the burden is carried by God who confirms the word of His prophets."

2. Then if someone seeks confirmation that indeed God is speaking through you, you say, "and evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign..."

So, again, if God has given you a "word" that he is going to confirm...what is this word? Any word you speak or is it a specific message?

Ultimately this all boils down to "believe I am a prophet because I say so. If you disagree then you are disagreeing with God himself who will discipline you for coming against his prophet." People have honest questions for you and you approach them as if they are an attack on your faith or a inferior wrongly questioning a superior. To even question your office as a prophet is to show oneself to be "hard hearted" or "stiff-necked." By your rationale, we should simply subject ourselves to anyone who claims (or had their friends claim) they are a prophet. First, I find this troubling since there is no specific message you are claiming that we should subject ourselves to (which makes this come across much more like ambition and personal "honor" than the advancement of a word from God) and second, this approach gives God's people no ability to discern truth from error. This is not how prophets present themselves or their messages in the Bible...and I think for good reason.
 

michaelvpardo

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Wormwood said:
Ultimately this all boils down to "believe I am a prophet because I say so. If you disagree then you are disagreeing with God himself who will discipline you for coming against his prophet." People have honest questions for you and you approach them as if they are an attack on your faith or a inferior wrongly questioning a superior. To even question your office as a prophet is to show oneself to be "hard hearted" or "stiff-necked." By your rationale, we should simply subject ourselves to anyone who claims (or had their friends claim) they are a prophet. First, I find this troubling since there is no specific message you are claiming that we should subject ourselves to (which makes this come across much more like ambition and personal "honor" than the advancement of a word from God) and second, this approach gives God's people no ability to discern truth from error. This is not how prophets present themselves or their messages in the Bible...and I think for good reason.
I haven't asked you to believe a thing other than the word of God. By the way, in order to see the more specific messages, you'd need to go back and review postings from prior to 9/11/2001 and not here, but elsewhere (I think that it was on AOL, but my memory isn't what it never was. However, I've always used my real name, not some pretentious screen name.)
My calling has never been to build a resume', just to deliver a message of judgment (national and global) and to call men to faith through the gospel of the redemption paid with the blood of Jesus Christ, the Holy One of God, His Son and our LORD. The only authority that I've ever appealed to (for prophecy's sake) was the scripture, but I enjoy intelligent discussion with those who comprehend scripture, have apprehended the gospel, and have received understanding (it doesn't come by self effort, and no, I'm not listing it twice.)
Now, let me ask you a few questions. What spiritual gifts did God give you when you were born again? Did you know what they were at the moment of your rebirth? How did you discover them? What is their purpose? Did any spiritual elder ever lay hands upon you and pray for the blessing of your ministry? If one or more did, was it necessary or was it a witness? Enquiring minds would like to know.

Wormwood said:
Ultimately this all boils down to "believe I am a prophet because I say so. If you disagree then you are disagreeing with God himself who will discipline you for coming against his prophet."
I like the quote, its a nice touch, but I've never said that, you have, and discipline doesn't come against anyone for attacking His prophet(s), judgment does.
 

Wormwood

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"my memory isn't what it never was" - Good one. I like that! Ha!

I don't know what a real name vs. screen name has to do with anything. Im not trying to be pretentious.

So if your primary message is to call men to faith in the Gospel...how does that differ from teaching?

Thanks for your questions.

What spiritual gifts did you receive...
I believe I am gifted to be a teacher. I believe others can be used to confirm a gift given by the Spirit, but something like prophecy does not seem to be the type of gift someone has to tell you about. I view it much like the gift of working miracles. I don't think anyone had to go up to Peter and say, "I believe you have the gift of healing the blind, making the lame walk and raising the dead." If so, nothing in Scripture suggests this.

Did I know this the moment of my rebirth?
Not specifically. I was more focused on wanting to know Christ than his calling for me. I just knew my life was no longer my own.

How did you discover them?
I think most often the gift is discovered through our desires and passion. The gifts are about love. God loves his people and when there is a need in his body, the Spirit within us desires to meet that need. Some have a heart for the hurting, some want to give to support missions or feed the hungry, some have a passion for guiding believers and administration, some have a passion to see people grow in the knowledge of God's life-giving Word. Most importantly, I do not think gifts are supposed to be about me at all. When gifts are about my position, my authority, my title, and my honor...then the whole purpose is lost. That is what Paul is teaching in 1 Cor. 12-13. Gifts are about what breaks my heart in the world and in the church and a God-given passion to do something about it. As one pastor said, "What God originates, God orchestrates." If I don't feel gifted to meet that need, we are instructed to pray for that gift so the body might be edified.

What is their purpose?
See above.

Did anyone lay hands on you...
Yes. I had pastors lay hands on me with the promise I would receive tongues. I did not receive that gift as a result of their declaration and laying on of hands, however. The gift I believe the Spirit has given me did not come as a result of laying on of hands.


I wasn't implying you did say those words...but that it seems to be the clear message being communicated through your posts in my mind. Probably shouldn't have used quotes, but I was trying to portray how your comments are being relayed to me throughout all of these posts. There are all kinds of people who claim to be prophets and apostles. I think there is a way to discern the role other than someone's self-proclamation...and I think what I have pointed to in Scripture is the most valid way to make that discernment.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Here is my prophecy for today ..... "there are no prophets today"

I can prove it because no prophets will step forward to prove they are prophets

I guarantee it
 

Secondhand Lion

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Here is my prophecy for today ..... "there are no prophets today"

I can prove it because no prophets will step forward to prove they are prophets

I guarantee it
I disagree with you. Maybe you are saying something you don't mean or could be more specific about what you do mean.

A prophet is simply someone who proclaims what God has said...making you a prophet on this very board a few times. Or do I misunderstand something?
 

Wormwood

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A prophet is not someone who simply proclaims what God has said unless that message is a unique revelation given specifically to that person. Otherwise, anyone who reads a Bible verse aloud is a "prophet." Every teacher is a prophet. And the very concept of the prophets becomes very diluted from what we actually see a prophet do in the Scriptures.
 

michaelvpardo

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Here is my prophecy for today ..... "there are no prophets today"

I can prove it because no prophets will step forward to prove they are prophets

I guarantee it
Arnie, no man gives a true prophecy by his own will, but by God's.
I've known psychics who can prove that they are psychic by telling you things about your own past that they shouldn't know and by using "energies" to attack your body physically (this is a demonic manifestation and not godly).
It is impossible for a prophet to prove that he is a prophet because the word that he gives doesn't come from him, nor is he able to make it happen. Even Moses, when he used his rod to work miracles, did so by the command and direction of God. Even Jesus said that He did those works which were shown Him by the Father (he said this more than once in various ways, but primarily in the gospel according to John).
Your guarantee is safe in one way, no prophet will prove himself. It is God who confirms the word of His prophets.
24. Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself; 25. Who frustrates the signs of the babblers, and drives diviners mad; Who turns wise men backward, and makes their knowledge foolishness; 26. Who confirms the word of His servant, and performs the counsel of His messengers; Who says to Jerusalem, `You shall be inhabited,' to the cities of Judah, `You shall be built,' and I will raise up her waste places; 27. Who says to the deep, `Be dry! and I will dry up your rivers'; 28. who says of Cyrus, `He is My shepherd, and he shall perform all My pleasure, even saying to Jerusalem, "You shall be built,'' and to the temple, "Your foundation shall be laid.'' ' Isaiah 44:24-28
 

Secondhand Lion

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Wormwood said:
A prophet is not someone who simply proclaims what God has said unless that message is a unique revelation given specifically to that person. Otherwise, anyone who reads a Bible verse aloud is a "prophet." Every teacher is a prophet. And the very concept of the prophets becomes very diluted from what we actually see a prophet do in the Scriptures.
Okay....yes....I get it. There are a couple nuances to it, but basically it is accurate. We could get into a word for word debate over it, but when it all boils down we are saying the same thing....I just thought it to be understood.

When you teach something...or for that matter write something on here about God's word...it wasn't a revelation from God about something His word said? Then you shared it with everyone else. It was given specifically to you at some point by God.

I like your posts, and I know you are not saying you have come to every conclusion about principles from God's word by our own might or power, I just think anyone who boldly proclaims God's word (word for word) is a prophet. The power is in God's word, not the person saying it. (I also think we can agree on this)

SL
 

Wormwood

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SL,

Thanks for the response. Yes I think there are nuances, but I believe they are important and change how we think about the issue. I think a definition of terms is in order here. Revelation has to do with something being unveiled that had previously been hidden. Inspiration has to do with God guiding the writing of His word so that his message is communicated through the author. Illumination has to do with someone receiving divinely empowered insight into something God has said or done.

Prophets bring revelation. They share something from God that had previously been hidden. Many times they are also empowered to do miraculous works and signs to show their message is indeed a revelation from God. The Bible has already been revealed. So when I proclaim the Words of Scripture, I am not giving new revelation. I am declaring something that has already been revealed through the inspiration of the biblical author. Now I may receive new insight about the Word that I had previously never seen, but this is not "revelation." It is illumination or insight. But it is simply a matter of me, or someone else, understanding more deeply the message that has previously been revealed. I believe that someone who claims to be a prophet is claiming to bring NEW revelation from God. That is what prophets ALWAYS did. They ALWAYS brought a new message, insight, or proclamation from God that had previously been hidden.

So, as I see it, a prophet is NOT someone who attempts to predict future events or proclaims a message that had previously been revealed. A prophet is someone who brings a NEW, message that has been revealed to the prophet whereas it was previously hidden. So a prophet is someone who would have a message from God that is NOT found in the Bible because the Bible has already been revealed.

This is why I do not think prophets exist today. The fullness of the plan and purposes of God has been made known through Jesus Christ. In the past, God spoke through the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken through Jesus Christ (cf. Heb. 1:1). Jesus is the full revelation of God. He is God in the flesh who has fulfilled all the purposes of God for humanity. He is the beginning and end of our faith. There is nothing left to be added. That is my take on this issue in a nutshell.
 

Secondhand Lion

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Wormwood,

As usual you have a very succinct, thoughtful, and instructive way of posting on issues. I wish I had your ability to communicate through writing, alas, I do not.

I can agree with almost everything you said, and I do stand corrected on a number of important issues that you bring up, they deserve more attention than I give them, so I will be more careful with my "loose" translation of prophet.

There is only one major thing I would ask you to clarify. Do you really see a difference in the overall message between Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the like, as all of them revealing something that was hidden before? None of them went over the same message or subject matters?

I will admit that right now I am treading into water that I am most unfamiliar/uncomfortable with. I try and try with prophetic books, but I can only see the plain messages in them. I really struggle with prophecy so please be kind. :wacko:

SL
 

Wormwood

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SL,

Thanks for the response and your kind words. Some of the prophets were contemporaries and so their messages overlapped and often their messages were similar. More than one prophet revealed that God's plan was to bring Babylon to come destroy Israel if they would not repent from their idolatry and injustice. So I do not mean "new" as in this message is unique only to one person. However, I do mean "new" in the fact that this was something God was presently revealing to that people group about something he was doing in that present moment.

In the same way, I think may of the New Testament prophets received revelation about the person and work of Jesus. So, certainly, multiple prophets could have had similar revelation about what God had done through Jesus. However, this message was NOT something they had read about or something that had been passed on from decades or centuries previous. It was a new message given directly to them from God.

So, in sum, my answer is that while the message is "new" this is not to say that God could not use multiple prophets for a similar call to repentance. Different prophets may have had similar messages because it was a message God wanted revealed to that generation through multiple spokesmen. But it seems clear to me that the message was revealed directly by God to the prophet and was not a message that came through the individuals insight into something previously revealed or something conjured from their imagination.

Sorry for the slow reply. Its been a hectic past week....lots of travel.
 

Mr.Bride

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I think the topic question sums it up quite well. Can the body of Christ function without eyes?? Can it? I know the ears arent going to say it doesn't need the eyes. And are the eyes the ears?

Oh you don't need the eyes now because you have already seen. Thats like you being born in the 70's and going blind in the year 2000. You can tell me how things looked but what about whats going on now. In this day and age that were living.


We have to be able to see what going on now. We're gonna always need eyes. This natural flesh don't wanna know about what the eyes see, that's it. Who's gonna read the handwriting on the wall?

Let that blind man tell me how a 2013 model car looks. Or how Facebook is set up. Or an iPhone. Can he see that we can take pictures on a phone now and the phone is even in color?

Can he still drive because he used to drive? Blessings
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Secondhand Lion said:
I disagree with you. Maybe you are saying something you don't mean or could be more specific about what you do mean.

A prophet is simply someone who proclaims what God has said...making you a prophet on this very board a few times. Or do I misunderstand something?
Sorry for the late reply ... I saw your post just now ...

Here is what I was saying ..... for 30 years or more I have heard various Christians make prophecies , or claim to have the gift of prophecy ..... in the end all those things exist only in their minds .... nothing they ever say happens , or they are all wrong on advice they give etc
 

Wormwood

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Mr.Bride said:
I think the topic question sums it up quite well. Can the body of Christ function without eyes?? Can it? I know the ears arent going to say it doesn't need the eyes. And are the eyes the ears?

Oh you don't need the eyes now because you have already seen. Thats like you being born in the 70's and going blind in the year 2000. You can tell me how things looked but what about whats going on now. In this day and age that were living.


We have to be able to see what going on now. We're gonna always need eyes. This natural flesh don't wanna know about what the eyes see, that's it. Who's gonna read the handwriting on the wall?

Let that blind man tell me how a 2013 model car looks. Or how Facebook is set up. Or an iPhone. Can he see that we can take pictures on a phone now and the phone is even in color?

Can he still drive because he used to drive? Blessings
I have read through this twice and still am unclear about what you are actually saying. What if I claim that I am the eyes and ears and if you don't listen to me or see things the way I see it, you don't know how a 2013 model car looks or how Facebook is set up? These analogies are pretty wild. I don't think I need someone else to help me understand the truth of Scripture and to claim that without particular persons ideas, we are all groping blind in the world with no clue of how to function in the faith is a recipe for disaster...or a cult.
 

michaelvpardo

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Wormwood said:
I have read through this twice and still am unclear about what you are actually saying. What if I claim that I am the eyes and ears and if you don't listen to me or see things the way I see it, you don't know how a 2013 model car looks or how Facebook is set up? These analogies are pretty wild. I don't think I need someone else to help me understand the truth of Scripture and to claim that without particular persons ideas, we are all groping blind in the world with no clue of how to function in the faith is a recipe for disaster...or a cult.
Perhaps you are eyes or ears in the body of Christ but don't know it because of your unbelief. I've prayed for you a number of times and still am, and the Lord has shown me that He will give you the gift of prophecy in order to satisfy the requirements of His own justice. You'll begin to know things before you should, and expect things before they happen, and see things about other people that you'll wish that you never did. When you open your mouth about them, you will surely receive the same treatment that you have given as surely as our God is just and righteous and as surely as He is zealous for His sons. Amen and Amen.
 

Floyd

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Interesting reading!

These are a subjects, (prophets etc.); (the Body of Christ) that exercised my wife and I about 35 years ago.

The following are our conclusions, which will obviously not chime with many, from reading this Thread.

When the Apostle Paul was writing to the churches he had started regarding the Body of The Lord, and behaviour in general; the dating was pre. AD 61-2.
This was prior to the final rejection of by Jewry of Jesus as their Messiah!
The expectation was that Christ Jesus would return soon, at that date!
Due to the Sanhedrin's and Jewry's generally rejection (see Acts 25-28) ; the Great Apostle turned to the Gentiles!
The return of Christ became delayed; and Paul wrote seven more Letters during his Rome imprisonment: Eph.; Phill.; Col.; Titus; Phil.;1-2 Tim.
Paul knew that because of the rejection of Jesus, His return was then to be delayed, and his last 7 letters were couched to cater for the yet incomplete Body of Christ; which are different in emphasis to his first 7 letters.
That condition still prevails, the Body is still in formation until "the number of the Gentiles is made up".
The present "Age of Grace" is also the "time of the Gentiles" and has been running since Acts 28:28!
At the present time, the Jews are" Lo-Amm"i (see Hos.1-2); and have yet to become "Ammi"again, (probably soon)!
The reason for this preamble, is to emphasis that prophets in the mode of the OT are no longer are valid or in existence IMO, and that all the prophecies regarding Israel are complete in the Word; but not completed!
Regarding prophecy in this time, IMO there is none; all the information we need is in the Scriptures.

Further comment on these subject can be read at www.revelationsmessage.co.uk

Prophecy and prophets; (Separate study)

Prophets, Prophetesses, Shepherds and Teachers (Separate study)

Prophecy Confliction (Separate study)

Prophetic area (The): (Separate study)

Floyd
 

michaelvpardo

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Floyd said:
Interesting reading!

These are a subjects, (prophets etc.); (the Body of Christ) that exercised my wife and I about 35 years ago.

The following are our conclusions, which will obviously not chime with many, from reading this Thread.

When the Apostle Paul was writing to the churches he had started regarding the Body of The Lord, and behaviour in general; the dating was pre. AD 61-2.
This was prior to the final rejection of by Jewry of Jesus as their Messiah!
The expectation was that Christ Jesus would return soon, at that date!
Due to the Sanhedrin's and Jewry's generally rejection (see Acts 25-28) ; the Great Apostle turned to the Gentiles!
The return of Christ became delayed; and Paul wrote seven more Letters during his Rome imprisonment: Eph.; Phill.; Col.; Titus; Phil.;1-2 Tim.
Paul knew that because of the rejection of Jesus, His return was then to be delayed, and his last 7 letters were couched to cater for the yet incomplete Body of Christ; which are different in emphasis to his first 7 letters.
That condition still prevails, the Body is still in formation until "the number of the Gentiles is made up".
The present "Age of Grace" is also the "time of the Gentiles" and has been running since Acts 28:28!
At the present time, the Jews are" Lo-Amm"i (see Hos.1-2); and have yet to become "Ammi"again, (probably soon)!
The reason for this preamble, is to emphasis that prophets in the mode of the OT are no longer are valid or in existence IMO, and that all the prophecies regarding Israel are complete in the Word; but not completed!
Regarding prophecy in this time, IMO there is none; all the information we need is in the Scriptures.


Floyd
I believe that the scripture actually says "until the fullness of the gentiles is in" (or something approximating that) which has its corollary in the book of Daniel which speaks of the time of the "fullness of transgression."
You see the "fullness of transgression" actually speaks to the rejection of the gospel, as we see in the book of the Revelation. According to God, the gospel is to be largely rejected by men because the cross is an offense and people tend to prefer darkness to light (see also John chapter 1.)
I'm not sure what you're driving at, but regarding prophecy in this time, if you ignore it you'll live to regret it.
 

PJM

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Madad21 said:
Rebuke is unpopular and it doesnt get bums on seats. Church elders would rather their ears tickled then pulled.
There is no dynamic fellowship anymore, because most dont even understand why they are sitting in a Church in the first place.
Its easier to be deaf and blind as its the sugar that helps the medicine go down.
How often do you hear meat and potato preaching littlelone the cry of warring prophets?
Its no wonder there is a lack of belief in what Christ really taught concerning the close call we take for granted, as it stands most have one foot on the wide road and the other just hovering above the narrow.
Christ is life and life is scary.
The Churches of today almost always take a Universalist approach to Salvation and the rest is swept under the alter.
Nobody wants to hear the mad ramblings of prophets, because nobody cares!!
You will always be a prophet without honour wherever you go,

But should that stop you?
Let them block their ears and despise you, is not your calling greater?
Can not the Almighty himself hear you?
Speak freely just as the Prophets before you spoke
With courage and strength.

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

All glory to God!!!
So my dear friend in Christ,

Do YOU beleive that there is BUT
One True God [the Trinity] Exo. 20: the first Commandment; Mt. 3: 13-17; Mt. 28:18-20]

With Only His One True set of Faith beliefs? [Ept. 4:1-7; Mt. 28:16-20]

And Founded, guides, guards and protects only the ONE Church that He Founded? [John 17: 13-20]

And yes, its all biblical too.

God Bless you,
PJM
 

Floyd

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Feb 28, 2014
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Floyd .... your post #56 is pretty much how I see it as well


Good to hear that Arnie, not many seem to.
Floyd.