Is Grace Established By Faith?

Gen 6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Why?

Because like Abraham:
Jas 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Noah had to have believed God in order to build the ark.
Gen 6:11
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
Gen 6:12
And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
Gen 6:13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
Gen 6:14
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Gen 6:22
Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

And yet, Noah found Grace in the eyes of the Lord before he was commanded to build the ark.

Noah was predetermined.

Gen 5:21
And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
Gen 5:22
And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23
And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Gen 5:28
And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
Gen 5:29
And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

In the book of Enoch it is written that God foretold Enoch of the flood and that Lamech would give birth to a child that was as white as snow. Like an albino. And Lamech was concerned and went to his father Methuselah, who went in search for Enoch to find out what this meant.

Did God give Grace to Noah prior to his belief?

Jhn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

You are sitting in a jail cell. Your sentence is either Life in prison or death.
The Governor signs a pardon and you are freed.

Was believing or knowing the Governor prior to being released required for the pardon?

Jhn 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

I believe Jesus brought grace with him before anyone even knew who he was.

Act 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Paul writes:

Gal 1:15
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Paul/Saul was in the middle of literally destroying the church when Jesus stopped him in his tracks and changed his life forever.

Now Paul believed in God, he even believed he was doing God service by trying to remove a newly growing "cult" that was leading people away from Moses' law.

But he didn't know Jesus.

NLT
So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.

So I would conclude that Grace is already given, but we have to claim it through faith to recieve it.

Just thinking..
Hugs

Wrangler said:

When I first read the Bible, one of the most profound verses for me was Romans 4:16

So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.​

The margin note I wrote at the time was, "The promise is grace, which is established by faith." Realizing this, it was like I had an out of body experience. We choose to complete the connection to God. The all-powerful God of the universe is not a rapist, who forces himself on us. He faithfully waits for us to place our faith in him. Wow!

It's that simple and that complicated. It's not following all these rules. As Paul wrote, it is a free gift - but we have to accept the gift through faith. Otherwise, God's grace for us is for naught. Thoughts?

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Where does faith for eternal life come from, if not of the grace of God?

To answer the question?
It is because of God's Grace we're even ABLE to have, or find faith.

rwb said:

Where does faith for eternal life come from, if not of the grace of God?

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Where does a Muslim get the faith to trust and obey Allah?

Lambano said:

Where does a Muslim get the faith to trust and obey Allah?

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All of humanity have natural faith in many things/ways! That kind of faith cannot eternally save us! James 2:19 tells us that even the devils/demons believe (have faith) there is one God.

James 2:19 (KJV) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

If faith is not imputed to fallen man by the power of God supernaturally through His grace, that faith is dead or natural faith and cannot give us eternal life through Christ. Natural faith is defined - complete trust or confidence in someone or something. Only faith that is of God can eternally save us. Saving faith is a deep, transformative trust in Jesus Christ that goes beyond mere belief; it encompasses knowledge, assent, and personal trust in His work for salvation.

John 6:29 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe [have faith] on him whom he hath sent.

rwb said:

Natural faith is defined - complete trust or confidence in someone or something. Only faith that is of God can eternally save us. Saving faith is a deep, transformative trust in Jesus Christ that goes beyond mere belief; it encompasses knowledge, assent, and personal trust in His work for salvation.

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So, what is the inherent difference between, say, trust in Allah (what you're calling "natural faith") and what you're calling "saving faith"?

Lambano said:

So, what is the inherent difference between, say, trust in Allah (what you're calling "natural faith") and what you're calling "saving faith"?

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God's grace!

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Our faith is a witness to this world, telling of God's grace.
It is also a witness to how this world ended up perishing in the absence of faith.
Only the Jesus Christ is the way to life and truth.

rwb said:

God's grace!

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

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This verse always comes up in the Calvinist-Arminian wars. I keep having to roll this out: To what does the "that" refer? In the Greek, "Pistis" ("faith") is a feminine noun; "touto" ("that") is a neuter demonstrative pronoun. By the rules of Greek grammar, the "gift of God" cannot be "faith" in this verse. The "gift of God" is the complex antecedent "salvation through faith", a gift being the very definition of "by grace".

rwb said:

All of humanity have natural faith in many things/ways! That kind of faith cannot eternally save us! James 2:19 tells us that even the devils/demons believe (have faith) there is one God.

James 2:19 (KJV) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Click to expand...

I wanted to address this one separately. One of things I learned in my Christian journey is that "belief" and "faith" are different things, though there is significant overlap. "Faith" in the biblical sense implies "trust" and "loyalty" (i.e. "faithfulness"). The demons believe there is one God (see "Shema Israel!"); they do not trust Him nor are they loyal to Him.

rwb said:

All of humanity have natural faith in many things/ways! That kind of faith cannot eternally save us!

Click to expand...

Then woe to him who trusts in Jesus using so-called "natural faith", for Jesus will prove to not be worthy of that trust.

That's one of the things that caused me to reject Calvinism, though I respect the process that formed it.

Wrangler said:

If this is true in the context of this thread, then why the Great Commission? Why all the effort on our part to bring people to Christ if it is not of ourselves but a gift from God? Why waste all the time, energy and treasure?

And how is this reconciled with Hebrews 11:6 Without faith no one can please God because the one coming to God must believe He exists, and He rewards those who come seeking. Are you saying one pleases God by the gift God gave the person? That doesn't seem right at all.

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Because mankind is NOT born knowing Jesus! Knowing there is a God is a good thing, but it is in knowing Jesus as Lord and Savior who gives us eternal life. We must KNOW Him to be eternally saved! When we hear the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed and by grace through faith we believe in Christ, then we have eternal life. And whosoever from the foundation of the world has been ordained to eternal life will know Him and believe in Him! The faith we receive according to grace is OUR faith once we have it. That's how we show our works of faith through our obedience to Him. If we say we have faith and have not works, then we know our faith is vain and not the faith that is given to us through God's grace!

Lambano said:

This verse always comes up in the Calvinist-Arminian wars. I keep having to roll this out: To what does the "that" refer? In the Greek, "Pistis" ("faith") is a feminine noun; "touto" ("that") is a neuter demonstrative pronoun. By the rules of Greek grammar, the "gift of God" cannot be "faith" in this verse. The "gift of God" is the complex antecedent "salvation through faith", a gift being the very definition of "by grace".

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"That" refers to SALVATION! How is man saved? By GRACE through FAITH, and this (salvation) is not of man but of God that no man can boast!

Lambano said:

I wanted to address this one separately. One of things I learned in my Christian journey is that "belief" and "faith" are different things, though there is significant overlap. "Faith" in the biblical sense implies "trust" and "loyalty" (i.e. "faithfulness"). The demons believe there is one God (see "Shema Israel!"); they do not trust Him nor or they loyal to Him.

Click to expand...

Faith is a noun which comes not from man to save themselves. But believe(ing) is a verb which is the work of God according to grace given us that we shall be obedient to Him.

Lambano said:

Then woe to him who trusts in Jesus using so-called "natural faith", for Jesus will prove to not be worthy of that trust.

That's one of the things that caused me to reject Calvinism, though I respect the process that formed it.

Click to expand...

Has nothing to do with Calvin! It is FACT, all mankind is physically born, spiritually dead, the result of the fall. Remember, many shall stand before Him at the judgment saying, "Lord, Lord".....and He will say to them depart from Me I do not know you!