Is Grace Established By Faith?

rwb said:

Has nothing to do with Calvin! It is FACT, all mankind is physically born, spiritually dead,

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Spiritually dead, is a might harsh, don't you think?
There are some traits (how can I say) "imputed?,imparted?, injected?" into one's "spirit/heart/soul" before they were ever born, or at the "time of conception!"
That are (using a biblical term) asleep*, awaiting for their appointed time/s (if you will) to awake, or be quickened (another biblical term) by a person's seeking, asking, discovering (like Calvin), or by God's "timed releasing" of these traits.
Sometimes? These "traits" are never encountered, sought, or discovered, which would give cause for one in such a declaration as you gave. DEAD!

* another oft times misunderstood term used even DURING O.T. AND N.T. days insinuating "death of the physical body."

NayborBear said:

Spiritually dead, is a might harsh, don't you think?
There are some traits (how can I say) "imputed?,imparted?, injected?" into one's "spirit/heart/soul" before they were ever born, or at the "time of conception!"
That are (using a biblical term) asleep*, awaiting for their appointed time/s (if you will) to awake, or be quickened (another biblical term) by a person's seeking, asking, discovering (like Calvin), or by God's "timed releasing" of these traits.
Sometimes? These "traits" are never encountered, sought, or discovered, which would give cause for one in such a declaration as you gave. DEAD!

* another oft times misunderstood term used even DURING O.T. AND N.T. days insinuating "death of the physical body."

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What part of man before they are saved is Paul speaking of being "dead in trespasses and sins" if not spiritual death without exception of every man except Jesus? What part must be made alive (quickened) that is dead in trespasses and sins? Not only are we, who were (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sins made alive together with Christ, this quickened life we receive from Christ has been (past tense) spiritually raised up together with Him, and with Him also, spiritually speaking, in heaven.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:4-6 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:13 (KJV) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ephesians 5:14 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

John 5:21 (KJV) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 3:22-24 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whatever traits a man might possess at birth, righteousness before God is NOT one of them. For all mankind are born with mortal flesh, destined to physically die.

Romans 3:10-12 (KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:23-27 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

LoveYeshua said:

I do not teach perfectionism you misrepresent what I wrote. you add to what I wrote also.

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But you do say it is by our good deeds that we are ETERNALLY saved. That ignores God saving believers to the uttermost through Christ who lives and makes intercession before the Father for we who always fall short in this life.

Hebrews 7:25 (KJV) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

John 10:28-29 (KJV) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

2 Timothy 1:12 (KJV) For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jude 24-25 (KJV) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

LoveYeshua said:

Yes, salvation begins with God.

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Yes, salvation from start to finish begins, and also ENDS with God who alone is able to eternally save whosoever is born again!

Wrangler said:

So, universalism is correct doctrine, then?

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Is that what you believe? It certainly is NOT what I believe, nor is it what I've said!

Wrangler said:

Well, it logically follows, my friend.
IF salvation begins and ends with God, necessarily not having anything to do with us,
THEN the commands for us to believe and show faith have no bearing whatsoever on our salvation.

See the contradiction with Romans 10:9 "If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved?"

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What do you mean by "not having anything to do with us"?

One who hears the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed and believes in their heart, believes by grace through faith that is the work of God toward those who are eternally saved. We don't believe in our heart if our heart after hearing remains in hardness and unbelief. Which is often the case among the body of Christ. You seem to be saying that if one confesses belief in Christ after hearing the Word they have eternal life through Christ that can be lost. That ignores the FACT that many confess the Lord and are even baptized who have only a head knowledge without a change of heart.

Romans 10:8-11 (KJV) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Acts 15:24 (KJV) Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

1 John 2:18-19 (KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

You argue that we must do good works of God to be saved. Scripture tells us we WILL do good works of God when we have been saved. If believers fail to do good deeds in this life, we have no fear of being eternally lost. We may be denied blessings from God that come through obedience in this life, and we may even come under chastening by God in this life, but those who have been born again by the power of God through Christ's Holy Spirit in us have no fear of losing the eternal/everlasting/never ending life we receive through Christ when we have been born again.

LoveYeshua said:

God starts the work, but we must walk in it.

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Salvation is not a work you can complete.

Why is that?

Its because JESUS completed our Salvation 2000 yrs ago on THE CROSS.

Its difficult to believe that a person would claim they are a "christian" , and yet have no idea that Christ is The Savior, and Salvation is based on The Cross.

LoveYeshua said:

But we are also not saved if we refuse to live by what He commands.

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No NT verse in a real Bible, says that "you are not saved unless you live by "commands".

So, its difficult to believe that a person who says they are a "christian"... has no idea that Salvation is a ""GIFT "" from God.

And you dont earn a gift, from God, and you dont keep it., as God's gifts are "without repentance"........and that means once applied (once Freely GIVEN BY GOD) they are eternal.

Here are 3 eternal """" gifts"" from God, according to the NT that can't be lost, and will never be taken away from a BELIEVER who is born again.

1.) "The GIFT........of Salvation".....

2.) "The Gift.... of Righteousness"....

3.) "The GIFT of Eternal Life".

Wrangler said:

My God man! Do the math! I’m responding to your claim that salvation begins and ends with God or words to that effect. If God has everything to do with salvation, then we have nothing to do with it.

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Jesus on The Cross is God's Eternal Salvation

A real Christian would understand this, as its obvious to a real one who has experienced God's Gift of Salvation who is Jesus.

So, what is a sinner's part in God's Salvation?

A.) To Receive it From God, by faith., as its "The GIFT of Salvation".

rwb said:

What part of man before they are saved is Paul speaking of being "dead in trespasses and sins" if not spiritual death without exception of every man except Jesus? What part must be made alive (quickened) that is dead in trespasses and sins? Not only are we, who were (spiritually) dead in trespasses and sins made alive together with Christ, this quickened life we receive from Christ has been (past tense) spiritually raised up together with Him, and with Him also, spiritually speaking, in heaven.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:4-6 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:13 (KJV) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ephesians 5:14 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

John 5:21 (KJV) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 3:22-24 (KJV) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whatever traits a man might possess at birth, righteousness before God is NOT one of them. For all mankind are born with mortal flesh, destined to physically die.

Romans 3:10-12 (KJV) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Romans 3:23-27 (KJV) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

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....And this is a truth that Paul and John was trying to get across:
Jeremiah 1:5
“I knew you before I formed you in your mother’s womb. Before you were born I set you apart and appointed you as my prophet to the nations.”
Do you think that Almighty God doesn't know who is where?
Seek? And you shall find!
Knock? And the door shall be opened to you!

Now, everyone is not a Prophet as Jeremiah was/is!

Yet? EVERYONE, is something! Or CAN be!
And, Almighty God KNOWS!
He may not like what you are, or have become, or becoming.
And He well MAY cause calamities (obstacles) in one's life or flesh body! In trying for (how can I say?) "course correction/s?"
And? He well MAY take away "talents" (as in parable of the talents) from one, and give them to another who knows how to use it/them!
But? There's is not ONE thing Almighty God Doesn't see, or KNOW!

This?!! Is the "GOOD NEWS" that had been apostatized from and rebelled against, and the reason Jesus Christ of Nazareth was SENT to earth!
Because of Almighty God's Loving Kindness!
Which ENDURES FOREVER!!

Wrangler said:

My God man! Do the math! I’m responding to your claim that salvation begins and ends with God or words to that effect. If God has everything to do with salvation, then we have nothing to do with it.

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Salvation is of the Lord! He shall save His people from their sins. Those who are eternally saved respond through repentance and faith because they have been saved, NOT to be saved!

Wrangler said:

Maybe using different words will convey the point clearer:

• Grace emanates from God.
• Faith connects us to his grace (salvation)

You have the cart before the horse. Scripture says whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It doesn't say, as you allege, that those who are saved, believe.

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How shall any man believe unto salvation without hearing the word of God? When we hear the gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed, all who will be saved through the power of the Holy Spirit receive faith to believe. Because eternal life does not come through human birth. We are given eternal spiritual life through the Spirit of Christ, and only when we have been born again are we able to turn to God with a new repentant heart/spirit to turn to Him in faith believing the life we have through Him shall never perish.

Because only the Spirit can make us eternally spiritually alive, that doesn't come to man naturally for all mankind are physically born spiritually dead in trespasses and sins without ability to turn to Christ in faith apart from the power of the Holy Spirit within them. John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. Flesh can only give birth [make alive] to flesh, and the Spirit of Christ alone gives birth [makes alive] to the spirit in man John 3:6 (KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 1:12-13 (KJV) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This is why man MUST be born again through the Spirit of Christ to possess eternal life and enter into the Kingdom of God (spiritually) in heaven. Salvation is of the Lord, and whosoever has been eternally saved by Him has no fear of death, because death can only kill our mortal flesh but cannot kill the spirit/soul.

Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:13-15 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV) For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

2 Corinthians 2:14-17 (KJV) Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things? For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.