Nicodemus' Faith

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

newnature

Member
Mar 24, 2011
564
96
28
John 3:16, this verse did not begin as a verse, it was part of a conversation, personal, unsettling, deeply spiritual. John 3:1-2, a religious leader came to Jesus under the cover of darkness, not because he lacked knowledge, but because knowledge had failed him, he had rules, tradition, reputation and status, what he lacked was peace. Jesus did not flatter him, he did not soften the truth, he pulled back the curtain on realty itself and revealed something Nicodemus had never considered, that God’s plan was not about fixing behavior, but about rescuing hearts.

John 3:16 is not God shouting from heaven, it is God leaning close, it reveals why Jesus came, why the cross was necessary and why love is at the center of everything. John 3:16 tells us that the problem of humanity was never ignorance and the solution was never religion, it tells us that love moved first before repentance, before understanding, before worthiness. God did not wait for the world to become lovable, he loved first and gave. John 3:16 carries the heartbeat of the gospel, not fear, not pressure, not performance, but love that risks rejection in order save.

John 3:16, did not fall from the sky as a timeless proverb, it was born in a moment of tension, humility and risk. Nicodemus came to Jesus at night, not because darkness suited him spiritually, but because daylight threatened him socially, he was a Pharisee, a ruler of Israel, a man trained to interpret scripture, guard tradition and maintain religious order, people listened when he spoke. Nicodemus’s reputation mattered and yet something in him was unsettled enough to step out of the safety of certainty and walk into the unknown. The night matters, darkness is where questions grow louder, it is where titles fade and honesty surfaces.

Nicodemus did not come arguing, he came acknowledging that something about Jesus could not be explained away, we know you are a teacher come from God. Nicodemus said, using we, as if hiding behind his peers, yet speaking from his own hunger, he recognized signs, power, authority, but he did not yet understand purpose. John 3:3, Jesus did not answer politely, he answered truthfully, he went straight to the core, bypassing compliments and credentials. Jesus spoke of being born again, as if Nicodemus’s entire spiritual life, impressive as it was, had not yet begun.

That statement was not poetic, it is confrontational, it dismantled the idea that heritage, knowledge or moral effort could bring someone into the life God intended. In that quiet exchange, Jesus shifted the entire framework of faith, he made it personal, not national, not institutional, not inherited, the Kingdom of God was not something Nicodemus could manage, control or earn, it was something he had to receive. This conversation set the stage for John 3:16, because before love could be explained, the problem had to be exposed, humanity did not need more light from within, it needed new life from above.
 

dak

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2013
1,457
188
63
Messianica
sites.google.com
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Nicodemus did not come arguing, he came acknowledging that something about Jesus could not be explained away, we know you are a teacher come from God. Nicodemus said, using we, as if hiding behind his peers, yet speaking from his own hunger, he recognized signs, power, authority, but he did not yet understand purpose. John 3:3, Jesus did not answer politely, he answered truthfully, he went straight to the core, bypassing compliments and credentials. Jesus spoke of being born again, as if Nicodemus’s entire spiritual life, impressive as it was, had not yet begun.

That statement was not poetic, it is confrontational, it dismantled the idea that heritage, knowledge or moral effort could bring someone into the life God intended. In that quiet exchange, Jesus shifted the entire framework of faith, he made it personal, not national, not institutional, not inherited, the Kingdom of God was not something Nicodemus could manage, control or earn, it was something he had to receive. This conversation set the stage for John 3:16, because before love could be explained, the problem had to be exposed, humanity did not need more light from within, it needed new life from above.

The new life from above is the Testimony of the Meshiah. Nikodemos was told to go back into the womb of his mother and relearn everything, just as Paul the Pharisee of Pharisees also had to do, and Timothy, and even the Prophet Yeshayah-Isaiah before them.

The following contains two double affirmations: "Amen, amen", (Yes, So be it, Truly, etc., etc.).

John 3:1-8 ASV
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 the same came unto him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [Amen, amen] I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [Amen, amen] I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.
8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

What is the actual response from the Master to the highlighted question in verse four from Nikodemos? The response, (verse five), is understood from the double affirmation: Amen, (Yes, So be it), amen (truly) I say unto you.......

The problem is that mainstream Christianity apparently will not even believe Paul when he teaches us that Yerushalem of above is our mother(covenant), as stated and taught by allegory in Galatians 4:22-31.
 

newnature

Member
Mar 24, 2011
564
96
28
The new life from above is the Testimony of the Meshiah. Nikodemos was told to go back into the womb of his mother and relearn everything, just as Paul the Pharisee of Pharisees also had to do, and Timothy, and even the Prophet Yeshayah-Isaiah before them.

The following contains two double affirmations: "Amen, amen", (Yes, So be it, Truly, etc., etc.).

John 3:1-8 ASV
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 the same came unto him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [Amen, amen] I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [Amen, amen] I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.
8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

What is the actual response from the Master to the highlighted question in verse four from Nikodemos? The response, (verse five), is understood from the double affirmation: Amen, (Yes, So be it), amen (truly) I say unto you.......

The problem is that mainstream Christianity apparently will not even believe Paul when he teaches us that Yerushalem of above is our mother(covenant), as stated and taught by allegory in Galatians 4:22-31.
Galatians 5:1, the temple, where animals were sacrificed day and night, the smell of smoke and blood was a constant reminder that sin was real and that God is holy, the problem was, that no matter how hard you tried, you could never be perfect. The law was like a mirror, a mirror is useful, because it shows you that your face is dirty, but a mirror cannot wash your face. The law could show people their sin, but it had no power to remove it or change the human heart, it only left people feeling guilty, inadequate and fearful of judgment. Then Jesus came, he lived the perfect life that no human could live, he fulfilled every single requirement of the law and when he died on the cross, he paid the penalty for every time you broke those laws.
 

dak

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2013
1,457
188
63
Messianica
sites.google.com
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Galatians 5:1, the temple, where animals were sacrificed day and night, the smell of smoke and blood was a constant reminder that sin was real and that God is holy, the problem was, that no matter how hard you tried, you could never be perfect. The law was like a mirror, a mirror is useful, because it shows you that your face is dirty, but a mirror cannot wash your face. The law could show people their sin, but it had no power to remove it or change the human heart, it only left people feeling guilty, inadequate and fearful of judgment. Then Jesus came, he lived the perfect life that no human could live, he fulfilled every single requirement of the law and when he died on the cross, he paid the penalty for every time you broke those laws.

The natural mind walks according to the flesh in all things pertaining to the scripture. The mind of the flesh is enmity against Elohim and cannot please Elohim because it cannot be subject to His Torah, (Rom 8:7), and we know that the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a).

Romans 8:5-9 ASV
5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Testimony is Spirit, and the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts is Spirit and Life, (John 6:63). Therefore to be "in Meshiah" is to be walking "in" his Testimony which expounds the Torah, Prophets, and writings throughout his earthly ministry found in the Gospel accounts. Anyone claiming to have the Spirit of Meshiah and yet not walking in his Testimony, which is Spirit and Life, and which teaches the true meanings of the Torah, is not his, (Rom 8:9).

Go back into the womb of your mother(covenant) and relearn everything through the eyes and teachings of the Master in the Gospel accounts. If Nikodemos the Teacher of Yisrael can forfeit his pride and do it, and if Paul the Pharisee of Pharisees can do it, no doubt all disciples of the Master can do it also.

The following passages are not speaking of natural physical childbirth:

Galatians 1:13-17 ASV
13 For ye have heard of my manner of life in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and made havoc of it:
14 and I advanced in the Jews' religion beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace,
16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were apostles before me: but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned unto Damascus.

What was Paul doing in Arabia? Hananyah at Damascus admonished him to rise up and go wash away his sins by immersion, (Acts 22:16), and that is, by immersion into the Word, the washing of water in/into the Word, the Testimony of the Master whom he had just met days before on the way to Damascus.

2 Timothy 3:14-15 ASV
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Natural born babes do not know the sacred writings from childbirth: they do not even really begin to speak until around the age of two years. Moreover Paul did not know Timothy from the time he was born naturally into this world: this is speaking of the same things which I have already presented herein.

This passage speaks of the same yet again even before the Advent of the Meshiah:

Isaiah 49:1 KJV
1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

The above is really close to what Paul says in Galatians 1:15, and it speaks of the same: not a natural-physical childbirth, but a new birth, to be born anew, and thus even the Prophets testify to what the Master says to Nikodemos in my previous reply above.

It is therefore absolutely necessary to go back into the womb of your mother-covenant, (Yerushalem of above, which is likened to the wilderness Tabernacle in one of the places Paul quotes from in the Gal 4 passage which I referenced), and to relearn the Torah and Prophets according to the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts. And, if not, you would be ignoring and disrespecting the free gift-offering which the Father has supplied to us through His one and only one-of-a-kind Son, His Word, whom He gave and sent into the world.
 

newnature

Member
Mar 24, 2011
564
96
28
The natural mind walks according to the flesh in all things pertaining to the scripture. The mind of the flesh is enmity against Elohim and cannot please Elohim because it cannot be subject to His Torah, (Rom 8:7), and we know that the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a).

Romans 8:5-9 ASV
5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace:
7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:
8 and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Testimony is Spirit, and the Testimony of the Meshiah in the Gospel accounts is Spirit and Life, (John 6:63). Therefore to be "in Meshiah" is to be walking "in" his Testimony which expounds the Torah, Prophets, and writings throughout his earthly ministry found in the Gospel accounts. Anyone claiming to have the Spirit of Meshiah and yet not walking in his Testimony, which is Spirit and Life, and which teaches the true meanings of the Torah, is not his, (Rom 8:9).

Go back into the womb of your mother(covenant) and relearn everything through the eyes and teachings of the Master in the Gospel accounts. If Nikodemos the Teacher of Yisrael can forfeit his pride and do it, and if Paul the Pharisee of Pharisees can do it, no doubt all disciples of the Master can do it also.

The following passages are not speaking of natural physical childbirth:

Galatians 1:13-17 ASV
13 For ye have heard of my manner of life in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and made havoc of it:
14 and I advanced in the Jews' religion beyond many of mine own age among my countrymen, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.
15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother's womb, and called me through his grace,
16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17 neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were apostles before me: but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned unto Damascus.

What was Paul doing in Arabia? Hananyah at Damascus admonished him to rise up and go wash away his sins by immersion, (Acts 22:16), and that is, by immersion into the Word, the washing of water in/into the Word, the Testimony of the Master whom he had just met days before on the way to Damascus.

2 Timothy 3:14-15 ASV
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Natural born babes do not know the sacred writings from childbirth: they do not even really begin to speak until around the age of two years. Moreover Paul did not know Timothy from the time he was born naturally into this world: this is speaking of the same things which I have already presented herein.

This passage speaks of the same yet again even before the Advent of the Meshiah:

Isaiah 49:1 KJV
1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

The above is really close to what Paul says in Galatians 1:15, and it speaks of the same: not a natural-physical childbirth, but a new birth, to be born anew, and thus even the Prophets testify to what the Master says to Nikodemos in my previous reply above.

It is therefore absolutely necessary to go back into the womb of your mother-covenant, (Yerushalem of above, which is likened to the wilderness Tabernacle in one of the places Paul quotes from in the Gal 4 passage which I referenced), and to relearn the Torah and Prophets according to the Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts. And, if not, you would be ignoring and disrespecting the free gift-offering which the Father has supplied to us through His one and only one-of-a-kind Son, His Word, whom He gave and sent into the world.
To be alienated from Jesus Christ means, you have cut off the flow of power, when you operate by rules, you are on your own, when you operate by faith, you are connected to the power source of Jesus. So, if you do not follow the law for salvation, does that mean you just do nothing? Does faith mean sitting on a couch and waiting for heaven? Absolutely not, Paul gives you the definition of real Christianity in a single sentence, the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love, Galatians 5:6. This is the key to the entire chapter, it is the middle ground between legalism and laziness. Legalism says, I work so I can be saved. Laziness say, I am saved, so I will not work. But the gospel says, I am saved by faith and that faith is so alive, that it naturally produces love.
 

dak

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2013
1,457
188
63
Messianica
sites.google.com
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
To be alienated from Jesus Christ means, you have cut off the flow of power, when you operate by rules, you are on your own, when you operate by faith, you are connected to the power source of Jesus. So, if you do not follow the law for salvation, does that mean you just do nothing? Does faith mean sitting on a couch and waiting for heaven? Absolutely not, Paul gives you the definition of real Christianity in a single sentence, the only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love, Galatians 5:6. This is the key to the entire chapter, it is the middle ground between legalism and laziness. Legalism says, I work so I can be saved. Laziness say, I am saved, so I will not work. But the gospel says, I am saved by faith and that faith is so alive, that it naturally produces love.

True faith and true love do not sideline the Word of the Father, and the Torah, Prophets, Writings, and the Renewed Covenant, (N/T), are all the Word of the Father. Meshiah himself received his Testimony from above, from the heavens, from the Father, (John 3:25-30, John 7:16, John 12:46-50, John 14:23-24).

You say you have faith that is so alive that it naturally produces love: why therefore do you find a need to sideline the Torah when there is no reason for you to do so anywhere in the scripture? Is that your idea of love for the Father? Moreover the Master has removed the curse/curses for those who believe on him and into him, and that faith/belief is the kind which causes the hearer to act upon his words and teachings and actually do what he teaches and commands. If indeed the Master has removed the curse, (and yes, as Paul says, he did), then we have no reason, nor excuse, nor need to wish to do away with, or sideline, or abolish the Torah which is the Word of the Father. True biblical faith/belief results in actions and deeds which show a true repentance and change of heart: those who claim the name of the Meshiah and yet refuse to hear his teachings regarding the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, are frauds and wolves in sheepskins.

Your commentaries therefore reveal an oxymoronic way of thinking:

"I am saved by faith and that faith is so alive that it naturally produces love."........."The law was like a mirror, a mirror is useful, because it shows you that your face is dirty, but a mirror cannot wash your face. The law could show people their sin, but it had no power to remove it or change the human heart, it only left people feeling guilty, inadequate and fearful of judgment. Then Jesus came, he lived the perfect life that no human could live, he fulfilled every single requirement of the law and when he died on the cross, he paid the penalty for every time you broke those laws."

You've shown that your faith which naturally produces love actually only produces love for Jesus, but not for the Word of the Father, (and yet His Word is His Son). It appears to me that you're really no different than most of MS Christianity in thinking that worshiping Jesus will get you off the hook for your sins, debts, and trespasses without the necessity of walking pleasing to the Father, as Paul also teaches and has been touched upon previously above.

Matthew 7:21-27 LSV (and updated version based on the YLT)
21 Not everyone who is saying to Me Lord, Lord, will come into the kingdom of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of My Father who is in the heavens.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your Name? And in Your Name cast out demons? And in Your Name done many mighty things?
23 And then I will acknowledge to them, that—I never knew you, depart from Me you who are working lawlessness.
24 Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock;
25 and the rain descended, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who is hearing these words of Mine, and is not doing them, will be likened to a foolish man who built his house on the sand;
27 and the rain descended, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and its fall was great."
 

newnature

Member
Mar 24, 2011
564
96
28
True faith and true love do not sideline the Word of the Father, and the Torah, Prophets, Writings, and the Renewed Covenant, (N/T), are all the Word of the Father. Meshiah himself received his Testimony from above, from the heavens, from the Father, (John 3:25-30, John 7:16, John 12:46-50, John 14:23-24).

You say you have faith that is so alive that it naturally produces love: why therefore do you find a need to sideline the Torah when there is no reason for you to do so anywhere in the scripture? Is that your idea of love for the Father? Moreover the Master has removed the curse/curses for those who believe on him and into him, and that faith/belief is the kind which causes the hearer to act upon his words and teachings and actually do what he teaches and commands. If indeed the Master has removed the curse, (and yes, as Paul says, he did), then we have no reason, nor excuse, nor need to wish to do away with, or sideline, or abolish the Torah which is the Word of the Father. True biblical faith/belief results in actions and deeds which show a true repentance and change of heart: those who claim the name of the Meshiah and yet refuse to hear his teachings regarding the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, are frauds and wolves in sheepskins.

Your commentaries therefore reveal an oxymoronic way of thinking:

"I am saved by faith and that faith is so alive that it naturally produces love."........."The law was like a mirror, a mirror is useful, because it shows you that your face is dirty, but a mirror cannot wash your face. The law could show people their sin, but it had no power to remove it or change the human heart, it only left people feeling guilty, inadequate and fearful of judgment. Then Jesus came, he lived the perfect life that no human could live, he fulfilled every single requirement of the law and when he died on the cross, he paid the penalty for every time you broke those laws."

You've shown that your faith which naturally produces love actually only produces love for Jesus, but not for the Word of the Father, (and yet His Word is His Son). It appears to me that you're really no different than most of MS Christianity in thinking that worshiping Jesus will get you off the hook for your sins, debts, and trespasses without the necessity of walking pleasing to the Father, as Paul also teaches and has been touched upon previously above.

Matthew 7:21-27 LSV (and updated version based on the YLT)
21 Not everyone who is saying to Me Lord, Lord, will come into the kingdom of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of My Father who is in the heavens.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your Name? And in Your Name cast out demons? And in Your Name done many mighty things?
23 And then I will acknowledge to them, that—I never knew you, depart from Me you who are working lawlessness.
24 Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock;
25 and the rain descended, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who is hearing these words of Mine, and is not doing them, will be likened to a foolish man who built his house on the sand;
27 and the rain descended, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and its fall was great."
Galatians 5:6, real faith is not static, it moves, it acts, but the motivation is different. Under the law, you loved your neighbor, because you were afraid of being punished if you didn’t. Under grace, you love your neighbor, because you are so overwhelmed by God’s love for you, that it overflows. The action might look the same on the outside, but the heart condition is completely different, Paul is baffled by how quickly the Galatians turned away from this truth, Galatians 5:7. The Christian life is a marathon, the Galatians were running well, they were focused on Jesus, but legalism cut in on them.
 

newnature

Member
Mar 24, 2011
564
96
28
True faith and true love do not sideline the Word of the Father, and the Torah, Prophets, Writings, and the Renewed Covenant, (N/T), are all the Word of the Father. Meshiah himself received his Testimony from above, from the heavens, from the Father, (John 3:25-30, John 7:16, John 12:46-50, John 14:23-24).

You say you have faith that is so alive that it naturally produces love: why therefore do you find a need to sideline the Torah when there is no reason for you to do so anywhere in the scripture? Is that your idea of love for the Father? Moreover the Master has removed the curse/curses for those who believe on him and into him, and that faith/belief is the kind which causes the hearer to act upon his words and teachings and actually do what he teaches and commands. If indeed the Master has removed the curse, (and yes, as Paul says, he did), then we have no reason, nor excuse, nor need to wish to do away with, or sideline, or abolish the Torah which is the Word of the Father. True biblical faith/belief results in actions and deeds which show a true repentance and change of heart: those who claim the name of the Meshiah and yet refuse to hear his teachings regarding the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, are frauds and wolves in sheepskins.

Your commentaries therefore reveal an oxymoronic way of thinking:

"I am saved by faith and that faith is so alive that it naturally produces love."........."The law was like a mirror, a mirror is useful, because it shows you that your face is dirty, but a mirror cannot wash your face. The law could show people their sin, but it had no power to remove it or change the human heart, it only left people feeling guilty, inadequate and fearful of judgment. Then Jesus came, he lived the perfect life that no human could live, he fulfilled every single requirement of the law and when he died on the cross, he paid the penalty for every time you broke those laws."

You've shown that your faith which naturally produces love actually only produces love for Jesus, but not for the Word of the Father, (and yet His Word is His Son). It appears to me that you're really no different than most of MS Christianity in thinking that worshiping Jesus will get you off the hook for your sins, debts, and trespasses without the necessity of walking pleasing to the Father, as Paul also teaches and has been touched upon previously above.

Matthew 7:21-27 LSV (and updated version based on the YLT)
21 Not everyone who is saying to Me Lord, Lord, will come into the kingdom of the heavens; but he who is doing the will of My Father who is in the heavens.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your Name? And in Your Name cast out demons? And in Your Name done many mighty things?
23 And then I will acknowledge to them, that—I never knew you, depart from Me you who are working lawlessness.
24 Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock;
25 and the rain descended, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who is hearing these words of Mine, and is not doing them, will be likened to a foolish man who built his house on the sand;
27 and the rain descended, and the streams came, and the winds blew, and they beat on that house, and it fell, and its fall was great."
Galatians 5:13, if you are free from the law and you are saved only by grace, why not just sin as much as you want, if God’s job is to forgive and my job is to have fun, let us get to it, this is the most common objection to the message of grace. People are terrified that freedom will lead to chaos, but Paul crushes this idea, freedom is not the right to do whatever you want, that is actually a different kind of slavery. If you do whatever your impulses tell you to do, you are a slave to your impulses, true freedom is the power to do what you ought to do, it is the power to choose love over selfishness.
 

dak

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2013
1,457
188
63
Messianica
sites.google.com
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Galatians 5:6, real faith is not static, it moves, it acts, but the motivation is different. Under the law, you loved your neighbor, because you were afraid of being punished if you didn’t. Under grace, you love your neighbor, because you are so overwhelmed by God’s love for you, that it overflows. The action might look the same on the outside, but the heart condition is completely different, Paul is baffled by how quickly the Galatians turned away from this truth, Galatians 5:7. The Christian life is a marathon, the Galatians were running well, they were focused on Jesus, but legalism cut in on them.

Paul speaks of the Pharisee way in those comments, not the Way of Meshiah, and again, the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a), and therefore the natural mind cannot please Elohim because it neither understands nor is willing to accept the Testimony of the Meshiah which frees us from the carnal minded Pharisee way of interpreting and understanding the Torah. The whole point is that the old covenant Pharisee way puts a veil over the hearts and minds of those who walk according to the natural minded Pharisee way, and that veil is only removed by being "in Meshiah", and being "in Meshiah" means to be walking in all of his teachings and commandments. So the whole point is for you to have the veil removed "in Meshiah" so that you may understand what the Father desires in His Torah, not so that you can escape or bypass the Torah somehow.

If you do not even realize that the Master has interpreted the Torah in the correct way for you, so that you may walk in it in the Way that is pleasing to the Father: you have no clue what the free gift-offering truly concerns, neither do you understand the grace of that free gift-offering made by Meshiah on your behalf, as well as for all the world, for anyone who is willing to partake in that free gift-offering. Modern MS theology has twisted so many minds it's frightening.
 

dak

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2013
1,457
188
63
Messianica
sites.google.com
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Galatians 5:13, if you are free from the law and you are saved only by grace, why not just sin as much as you want, if God’s job is to forgive and my job is to have fun, let us get to it, this is the most common objection to the message of grace. People are terrified that freedom will lead to chaos, but Paul crushes this idea, freedom is not the right to do whatever you want, that is actually a different kind of slavery. If you do whatever your impulses tell you to do, you are a slave to your impulses, true freedom is the power to do what you ought to do, it is the power to choose love over selfishness.

You are still saying you need not the Word of the Father because your faith is supposedly so alive and wonderful. Your faith is empty because you already showed that it does not produce the love of the Truth in the Word of the Father. The Word of the Father is His Son and the Torah both records, and is, the first Word of the Father to come into the world, (Gen 1:3, 2Cor 4:6). No matter how much you denigrate and belittle the Torah, in the end, you will have no excuse for why you feared it so much that you felt the need to run from it or find a way to sideline it. There is no excuse: Meshiah has opened the Way, removed the curse, and has fully expounded all anyone needs in order to begin understanding the Torah so as to walk pleasing to the Father. The Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts is our Guide to understanding the Torah: and it is not what you think, stop consuming Pharisee doctrines regarding the Torah.
 

newnature

Member
Mar 24, 2011
564
96
28
Paul speaks of the Pharisee way in those comments, not the Way of Meshiah, and again, the Torah is spiritual, (Rom 7:14a), and therefore the natural mind cannot please Elohim because it neither understands nor is willing to accept the Testimony of the Meshiah which frees us from the carnal minded Pharisee way of interpreting and understanding the Torah. The whole point is that the old covenant Pharisee way puts a veil over the hearts and minds of those who walk according to the natural minded Pharisee way, and that veil is only removed by being "in Meshiah", and being "in Meshiah" means to be walking in all of his teachings and commandments. So the whole point is for you to have the veil removed "in Meshiah" so that you may understand what the Father desires in His Torah, not so that you can escape or bypass the Torah somehow.

If you do not even realize that the Master has interpreted the Torah in the correct way for you, so that you may walk in it in the Way that is pleasing to the Father: you have no clue what the free gift-offering truly concerns, neither do you understand the grace of that free gift-offering made by Meshiah on your behalf, as well as for all the world, for anyone who is willing to partake in that free gift-offering. Modern MS theology has twisted so many minds it's frightening.
Ephesians 5:21, introduces a principle that precedes and underlies everything about relationships, submitting to one another in the fear of Christ. This instruction is not directed to a specific group within the community, it is universal, addressed to all believers without distinction. Before talking about husbands and wives, before touching on any specific relational structure, Paul establishes that mutual submission is the environment in which all Christian relationships must breathe. The fear of Christ, is not servile fear, but reverence, a deep awareness that Christ is the Lord of every relationship and that this lordship completely changes the dynamics of how people relate to one another.
 

newnature

Member
Mar 24, 2011
564
96
28
You are still saying you need not the Word of the Father because your faith is supposedly so alive and wonderful. Your faith is empty because you already showed that it does not produce the love of the Truth in the Word of the Father. The Word of the Father is His Son and the Torah both records, and is, the first Word of the Father to come into the world, (Gen 1:3, 2Cor 4:6). No matter how much you denigrate and belittle the Torah, in the end, you will have no excuse for why you feared it so much that you felt the need to run from it or find a way to sideline it. There is no excuse: Meshiah has opened the Way, removed the curse, and has fully expounded all anyone needs in order to begin understanding the Torah so as to walk pleasing to the Father. The Testimony of the Master in the Gospel accounts is our Guide to understanding the Torah: and it is not what you think, stop consuming Pharisee doctrines regarding the Torah.
Ephesians 5:20 brings an instruction that seems simple, but in practice represents one of the greatest battles of the believers life. Always for everything, these two words together form a way of life that goes completely against the natural inclination of the human heart. It is relatively easy to give thanks when things are going well, when plans are realized, when health is preserved and relationships are in order, gratitude in these conditions is almost automatic. What Paul is describing is something very different, a gratitude that does not depend on circumstances, that does not wait for everything to be resolved to manifest, that finds reason for existence, even on days when nothing seems to justify it.

The theological basis of this gratitude is in the word Father, Paul does not simply say, giving thanks to God, he specifies God the Father. This distinction is essential to understand how unconditional gratitude is possible, a father who loves his children, does not always act in ways that the children immediately comprehend, there are paternal decisions that only make sense much later. There are disciplines that hurt before they heal, there are silences that seem like abandonment, but that are in fact space for growth. When Paul instructs to give thanks in everything, he is starting from a conviction about the character of the Father, that nothing that passes through the hands of God for a child’s life is devoid of purpose.

This conviction does not eliminate pain, but completely changes how pain is interpreted and traversed, giving thanks in everything also works as an act of spiritual resistance. On bad days, ingratitude is one of the most efficient tools of the enemy, because it closes the heart, distorts the perception of reality and isolates the believer from perceiving the presence of God. An ungrateful person sees only what is lacking, only what went wrong, only what has not yet been answered, deliberate gratitude, that which is chosen, even when it is not felt, serves as an act of reorientation of the heart, a conscious return to the perspective that God is still in control, that the story is still being written and that the last chapter has not yet been read.
 

dak

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2013
1,457
188
63
Messianica
sites.google.com
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Ephesians 5:21, introduces a principle that precedes and underlies everything about relationships, submitting to one another in the fear of Christ. This instruction is not directed to a specific group within the community, it is universal, addressed to all believers without distinction. Before talking about husbands and wives, before touching on any specific relational structure, Paul establishes that mutual submission is the environment in which all Christian relationships must breathe. The fear of Christ, is not servile fear, but reverence, a deep awareness that Christ is the Lord of every relationship and that this lordship completely changes the dynamics of how people relate to one another.
Ephesians 5:20 brings an instruction that seems simple, but in practice represents one of the greatest battles of the believers life. Always for everything, these two words together form a way of life that goes completely against the natural inclination of the human heart. It is relatively easy to give thanks when things are going well, when plans are realized, when health is preserved and relationships are in order, gratitude in these conditions is almost automatic. What Paul is describing is something very different, a gratitude that does not depend on circumstances, that does not wait for everything to be resolved to manifest, that finds reason for existence, even on days when nothing seems to justify it.

The theological basis of this gratitude is in the word Father, Paul does not simply say, giving thanks to God, he specifies God the Father. This distinction is essential to understand how unconditional gratitude is possible, a father who loves his children, does not always act in ways that the children immediately comprehend, there are paternal decisions that only make sense much later. There are disciplines that hurt before they heal, there are silences that seem like abandonment, but that are in fact space for growth. When Paul instructs to give thanks in everything, he is starting from a conviction about the character of the Father, that nothing that passes through the hands of God for a child’s life is devoid of purpose.

This conviction does not eliminate pain, but completely changes how pain is interpreted and traversed, giving thanks in everything also works as an act of spiritual resistance. On bad days, ingratitude is one of the most efficient tools of the enemy, because it closes the heart, distorts the perception of reality and isolates the believer from perceiving the presence of God. An ungrateful person sees only what is lacking, only what went wrong, only what has not yet been answered, deliberate gratitude, that which is chosen, even when it is not felt, serves as an act of reorientation of the heart, a conscious return to the perspective that God is still in control, that the story is still being written and that the last chapter has not yet been read.

Abraham himself is proof of what has been said herein: the Word of YHWH the Father came to Abram in a vision, (Gen 15:1), and he believed what YHWH said to him by way of His Word, and this belief was accounted unto him as righteousness, (Gen 15:6), and in that same passage Abram also received the covenant, which was clearly part of the same vision. But this was not the end of the story, as revealed by Yakob the Tzaddik in his epistle. Abraham had to be tested so that his faith be proven to be true: only then was the statement in Gen 15:6 actually fulfilled.

Yakob (James) 2:20-24 ASV
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

A man is justified by works based on the initial faith, which works prove that the initial faith/belief was genuine, a man is not justified by faith alone. And in the case with Abraham that initial faith/belief was belief in the Word of YHWH which was spoken to him, which words are contained in the vision of Genesis 15. So even though no one is justified by the Torah, it is the belief, (with the proper understanding), and carrying out that faith/belief to the end which justifies the person. Both the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, (Heb 10:35-39), and Paul, (Gal 3:24→4:2), teach the same. You are under a schoolmaster, (the Torah), and tutors and governors, (Prophets and Writings), until the time appointed of the Father comes, and no one knows the day or the hour of that appointed time, and it is the time appointed when a child becomes a tried, true, fully tested, adult son. No father puts his untrained, inexperienced, untested son in charge of all his goods.
 

newnature

Member
Mar 24, 2011
564
96
28
Abraham himself is proof of what has been said herein: the Word of YHWH the Father came to Abram in a vision, (Gen 15:1), and he believed what YHWH said to him by way of His Word, and this belief was accounted unto him as righteousness, (Gen 15:6), and in that same passage Abram also received the covenant, which was clearly part of the same vision. But this was not the end of the story, as revealed by Yakob the Tzaddik in his epistle. Abraham had to be tested so that his faith be proven to be true: only then was the statement in Gen 15:6 actually fulfilled.

Yakob (James) 2:20-24 ASV
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith apart from works is barren?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, in that he offered up Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Thou seest that faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect;
23 and the scripture was fulfilled which saith, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

A man is justified by works based on the initial faith, which works prove that the initial faith/belief was genuine, a man is not justified by faith alone. And in the case with Abraham that initial faith/belief was belief in the Word of YHWH which was spoken to him, which words are contained in the vision of Genesis 15. So even though no one is justified by the Torah, it is the belief, (with the proper understanding), and carrying out that faith/belief to the end which justifies the person. Both the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, (Heb 10:35-39), and Paul, (Gal 3:24→4:2), teach the same. You are under a schoolmaster, (the Torah), and tutors and governors, (Prophets and Writings), until the time appointed of the Father comes, and no one knows the day or the hour of that appointed time, and it is the time appointed when a child becomes a tried, true, fully tested, adult son. No father puts his untrained, inexperienced, untested son in charge of all his goods.
My real life source actually doesn’t truly come from my own ingenuity and I cannot create and sustain my own life, I am confronted with my morality in that moment, but Jesus cites the mana, which was a very unique kind of bread, it’s a bread that only comes in certain amounts at the certain times and the certain amounts in certain times force you every day to realize that I don’t have the ability to get enough bread to really live on, whatever life I do have is life that comes as the pure gift of God. Exodus 16:15, this was all a great test in order to show what was in your heart, whether or not you really want to trust God or whether you would rather trust your own plans to keep yourselves alive, it shows, it makes visible and known what is in your heart, that’s the purpose of the test right here. The test in that story was when the mana, gather this amount that will last you for this day, it teaches you that you live by the generosity of another and not by the cleverness or ingenuity of yourself.
 

bdavidc

Well-Known Member
Mar 31, 2025
1,133
1,105
113
67
Charlestown, IN
know-the-bible.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
John 3:16, this verse did not begin as a verse, it was part of a conversation, personal, unsettling, deeply spiritual. John 3:1-2, a religious leader came to Jesus under the cover of darkness, not because he lacked knowledge, but because knowledge had failed him, he had rules, tradition, reputation and status, what he lacked was peace. Jesus did not flatter him, he did not soften the truth, he pulled back the curtain on realty itself and revealed something Nicodemus had never considered, that God’s plan was not about fixing behavior, but about rescuing hearts.

John 3:16 is not God shouting from heaven, it is God leaning close, it reveals why Jesus came, why the cross was necessary and why love is at the center of everything. John 3:16 tells us that the problem of humanity was never ignorance and the solution was never religion, it tells us that love moved first before repentance, before understanding, before worthiness. God did not wait for the world to become lovable, he loved first and gave. John 3:16 carries the heartbeat of the gospel, not fear, not pressure, not performance, but love that risks rejection in order save.

John 3:16, did not fall from the sky as a timeless proverb, it was born in a moment of tension, humility and risk. Nicodemus came to Jesus at night, not because darkness suited him spiritually, but because daylight threatened him socially, he was a Pharisee, a ruler of Israel, a man trained to interpret scripture, guard tradition and maintain religious order, people listened when he spoke. Nicodemus’s reputation mattered and yet something in him was unsettled enough to step out of the safety of certainty and walk into the unknown. The night matters, darkness is where questions grow louder, it is where titles fade and honesty surfaces.

Nicodemus did not come arguing, he came acknowledging that something about Jesus could not be explained away, we know you are a teacher come from God. Nicodemus said, using we, as if hiding behind his peers, yet speaking from his own hunger, he recognized signs, power, authority, but he did not yet understand purpose. John 3:3, Jesus did not answer politely, he answered truthfully, he went straight to the core, bypassing compliments and credentials. Jesus spoke of being born again, as if Nicodemus’s entire spiritual life, impressive as it was, had not yet begun.

That statement was not poetic, it is confrontational, it dismantled the idea that heritage, knowledge or moral effort could bring someone into the life God intended. In that quiet exchange, Jesus shifted the entire framework of faith, he made it personal, not national, not institutional, not inherited, the Kingdom of God was not something Nicodemus could manage, control or earn, it was something he had to receive. This conversation set the stage for John 3:16, because before love could be explained, the problem had to be exposed, humanity did not need more light from within, it needed new life from above.
This is a good reminder that ~John 3:16 belongs in the full conversation with Nicodemus. Jesus did not tell him he needed more religion, more status, or more outward reform. He told him, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” ~John 3:3.

Man’s deepest problem is not lack of religious knowledge, but sin, unbelief, and spiritual death. Jesus said, “he that believeth not is condemned already” ~John 3:18, and “men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil” ~John 3:19.

So yes, ~John 3:16 shows the love of God, but it shows that love in the face of a perishing world. God gave His Son because sinners needed rescue, not improvement. Eternal life is found only in believing on the Son.
 
  • Like
Reactions: newnature

bdavidc

Well-Known Member
Mar 31, 2025
1,133
1,105
113
67
Charlestown, IN
know-the-bible.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
The new life from above is the Testimony of the Meshiah. Nikodemos was told to go back into the womb of his mother and relearn everything, just as Paul the Pharisee of Pharisees also had to do, and Timothy, and even the Prophet Yeshayah-Isaiah before them.

The following contains two double affirmations: "Amen, amen", (Yes, So be it, Truly, etc., etc.).

John 3:1-8 ASV
1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 the same came unto him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [Amen, amen] I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [Amen, amen] I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.
8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

What is the actual response from the Master to the highlighted question in verse four from Nikodemos? The response, (verse five), is understood from the double affirmation: Amen, (Yes, So be it), amen (truly) I say unto you.......

The problem is that mainstream Christianity apparently will not even believe Paul when he teaches us that Yerushalem of above is our mother(covenant), as stated and taught by allegory in Galatians 4:22-31.
The new birth is of the Spirit. It is from above. It is necessary for salvation. Anything that turns that into a system of hidden meanings, covenant-mother language, or relearning everything moves away from what Christ plainly said.
 
  • Like
Reactions: newnature

dak

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2013
1,457
188
63
Messianica
sites.google.com
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
My real life source actually doesn’t truly come from my own ingenuity and I cannot create and sustain my own life, I am confronted with my morality in that moment, but Jesus cites the mana, which was a very unique kind of bread, it’s a bread that only comes in certain amounts at the certain times and the certain amounts in certain times force you every day to realize that I don’t have the ability to get enough bread to really live on, whatever life I do have is life that comes as the pure gift of God. Exodus 16:15, this was all a great test in order to show what was in your heart, whether or not you really want to trust God or whether you would rather trust your own plans to keep yourselves alive, it shows, it makes visible and known what is in your heart, that’s the purpose of the test right here. The test in that story was when the mana, gather this amount that will last you for this day, it teaches you that you live by the generosity of another and not by the cleverness or ingenuity of yourself.

The scripture I referenced tells us what the test is; and that's the test I spoke of because I know it to be true.

Hebrews 10:35-39
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [Hab 2:3]
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. [Hab 2:4]
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The Habakkuk quote is from the Greek Septuagint version:

Habakkuk 2:2-4 Brenton Septuagint
2 And the Lord answered me and said, Write the vision, and that plainly on a tablet, that he that reads it may run.
3 For the vision is yet for a time, and it shall shoot forth at the end, and not in vain: though he should tarry, wait for him; for he will surely come, and will not tarry.
4 If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by my faith.

Galatians 4:1-2 is not a new passage, the chapter break tends to hide this fact: it is the culmination of what came before in Gal 3:24-29.

Galatians 4:1-2
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Are these things not precisely what I said?
 

dak

Well-Known Member
Feb 9, 2013
1,457
188
63
Messianica
sites.google.com
Faith
Other Faith
Country
United States
Gender
Male
The new birth is of the Spirit. It is from above. It is necessary for salvation. Anything that turns that into a system of hidden meanings, covenant-mother language, or relearning everything moves away from what Christ plainly said.

Go learn the meanings of these commandments of the Master:

Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, [Mat 5:13a] and have peace one with another.

Isaiah 66:19-24
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; [Mark 9:44, 46, 48] and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And Lev 2:13 is the only place in the Torah where the salt commandment is given:

Leviticus 2:13
13 And you shall season every offering of your grain offering with salt, and you shall not allow the salt of the covenant of your Elohim to be lacking from your grain offering. With all your offerings you shall bring salt. [Mark 9:49b]
 

newnature

Member
Mar 24, 2011
564
96
28
The scripture I referenced tells us what the test is; and that's the test I spoke of because I know it to be true.

Hebrews 10:35-39
35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. [Hab 2:3]
38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. [Hab 2:4]
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The Habakkuk quote is from the Greek Septuagint version:

Habakkuk 2:2-4 Brenton Septuagint
2 And the Lord answered me and said, Write the vision, and that plainly on a tablet, that he that reads it may run.
3 For the vision is yet for a time, and it shall shoot forth at the end, and not in vain: though he should tarry, wait for him; for he will surely come, and will not tarry.
4 If he should draw back, my soul has no pleasure in him: but the just shall live by my faith.

Galatians 4:1-2 is not a new passage, the chapter break tends to hide this fact: it is the culmination of what came before in Gal 3:24-29.

Galatians 4:1-2
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

Are these things not precisely what I said?
Hebrews 9:15, under the first covenant, that means the people who lived and died under the old system, the believers of the Old Testament who brought their animal sacrifices in faith and never lived to see the Messiah, they were covered, too. Their sacrifices were like a credit forward, against a payment that had not yet been made, when Jesus Christ died, the will activated not just for everyone after the cross, but for everyone before it, as well. Jesus Christ’s death reached backward through time and settled every outstanding debt in history.
 

newnature

Member
Mar 24, 2011
564
96
28
Go learn the meanings of these commandments of the Master:

Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, [Mat 5:13a] and have peace one with another.

Isaiah 66:19-24
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; [Mark 9:44, 46, 48] and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And Lev 2:13 is the only place in the Torah where the salt commandment is given:

Leviticus 2:13
13 And you shall season every offering of your grain offering with salt, and you shall not allow the salt of the covenant of your Elohim to be lacking from your grain offering. With all your offerings you shall bring salt. [Mark 9:49b]
Luke 4:16-30, this is a Jubilee announcement Jesus is announcing, that it is the arrival of God’s Kingdom, the ultimate release, the great forgiveness and to be a prophet announcing that to Israel as they sit under foreign domination from Rome, he’s announcing that the great restoration is going to happen. To announce the forgiveness of sins was a prophetic announcement of the arrival of God’s Kingdom, for Israel, God has forgiven us, he’s in the process of forgiving us right now. For Jesus to go around announcing forgiveness to individuals is bound up with the forgiveness of Israel’s sins, because it’s the sins against God that brought the covenant curses upon them. For Jesus announcing forgiveness and then really practicing it as a community was a sign of the arrival of God’s Kingdom, a community of radical forgiveness is an incarnation of God’s Kingdom people living under the rule and the reign of God’s blessing.