Nicodemus' Faith

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dak

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Hebrews 9:15, under the first covenant, that means the people who lived and died under the old system, the believers of the Old Testament who brought their animal sacrifices in faith and never lived to see the Messiah, they were covered, too. Their sacrifices were like a credit forward, against a payment that had not yet been made, when Jesus Christ died, the will activated not just for everyone after the cross, but for everyone before it, as well. Jesus Christ’s death reached backward through time and settled every outstanding debt in history.
Luke 4:16-30, this is a Jubilee announcement Jesus is announcing, that it is the arrival of God’s Kingdom, the ultimate release, the great forgiveness and to be a prophet announcing that to Israel as they sit under foreign domination from Rome, he’s announcing that the great restoration is going to happen. To announce the forgiveness of sins was a prophetic announcement of the arrival of God’s Kingdom, for Israel, God has forgiven us, he’s in the process of forgiving us right now. For Jesus to go around announcing forgiveness to individuals is bound up with the forgiveness of Israel’s sins, because it’s the sins against God that brought the covenant curses upon them. For Jesus announcing forgiveness and then really practicing it as a community was a sign of the arrival of God’s Kingdom, a community of radical forgiveness is an incarnation of God’s Kingdom people living under the rule and the reign of God’s blessing.

Duly noted: more nice happy-touchy-feely thoughts having nothing to do with the points being made from the scriptures I have quoted.

Have a great day! tea.gif
.
 

newnature

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Duly noted: more nice happy-touchy-feely thoughts having nothing to do with the points being made from the scriptures I have quoted.

Have a great day! View attachment 83740
.
What will the forgiveness of sins mean, it’s not just an exchange between God and your average Israelite, it will by definition be like a dual relationship, you can’t claim to be forgiven by God and then be holding out forgiveness, not releasing other people of what they’ve done to you, but then somehow thinking that you’re really grateful that God released you for how you wronged him. The forgiveness of sins becomes a shorthand for the restoration of a community that is forgiven and that people mirror and imitate that Divine forgiveness by reshaping how they relate to each other. If you don’t forgive, then what you are demonstrating is that you are actually incapable of really experiencing what you say you have experienced, which is God’s forgiveness, it doesn’t work that way Jesus says. Within the Hebrew Bible storyline, forgiveness is not merely something between Israelites individually or between individual Israelites and God, it has social and communal and a covenantal storyline attached to it.
 

dak

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What will the forgiveness of sins mean, it’s not just an exchange between God and your average Israelite, it will by definition be like a dual relationship, you can’t claim to be forgiven by God and then be holding out forgiveness, not releasing other people of what they’ve done to you, but then somehow thinking that you’re really grateful that God released you for how you wronged him. The forgiveness of sins becomes a shorthand for the restoration of a community that is forgiven and that people mirror and imitate that Divine forgiveness by reshaping how they relate to each other. If you don’t forgive, then what you are demonstrating is that you are actually incapable of really experiencing what you say you have experienced, which is God’s forgiveness, it doesn’t work that way Jesus says. Within the Hebrew Bible storyline, forgiveness is not merely something between Israelites individually or between individual Israelites and God, it has social and communal and a covenantal storyline attached to it.

??? facepalm-1.gif
 

newnature

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Your existence today isn’t the result of all your planning, because even your planning itself and the ability to plan and to have a stable enough life and environment to make your plans is all a gift that you didn’t create for yourself. Jesus isn’t saying don’t make plans beyond today’s bread, it’s a request to God, give me what I need for today and it’s training your mind to see that every day’s existence comes as a gift, even if I planned for today’s meal a month ago, ultimately, it’s a gift from God in this moment.

Jesus wants all of his followers to imagine that their moment-by-moment existence is not something that they created for themselves, but that they receive as a gift, the bread of the moment. I can count on the pension and even then Jesus wants his disciples to cultivate the mindset of a beggar or a day laborer, there’s something about that mindset that will keep you in a space that Jesus wants his followers to never leave, which is a radical in the moment trust and dependence on the generosity of God. Jesus himself was shaped and this articulates a big priority in how Jesus lived and saw the world, he invites us into radical trust for provision.
 

dak

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Your existence today isn’t the result of all your planning, because even your planning itself and the ability to plan and to have a stable enough life and environment to make your plans is all a gift that you didn’t create for yourself. Jesus isn’t saying don’t make plans beyond today’s bread, it’s a request to God, give me what I need for today and it’s training your mind to see that every day’s existence comes as a gift, even if I planned for today’s meal a month ago, ultimately, it’s a gift from God in this moment.

Jesus wants all of his followers to imagine that their moment-by-moment existence is not something that they created for themselves, but that they receive as a gift, the bread of the moment. I can count on the pension and even then Jesus wants his disciples to cultivate the mindset of a beggar or a day laborer, there’s something about that mindset that will keep you in a space that Jesus wants his followers to never leave, which is a radical in the moment trust and dependence on the generosity of God. Jesus himself was shaped and this articulates a big priority in how Jesus lived and saw the world, he invites us into radical trust for provision.

I can hardly believe that the forum allows you to keep filling up the board with the same old philosophical nonsense every day without ever actually engaging anyone who does not agree with your theology. But I guess if they want their Apologetics board to be overrun by someone who thinks he is so important that he needs to do unto others what you do to those here, then that's their prerogative. What a shame.
 

newnature

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I can hardly believe that the forum allows you to keep filling up the board with the same old philosophical nonsense every day without ever actually engaging anyone who does not agree with your theology. But I guess if they want their Apologetics board to be overrun by someone who thinks he is so important that he needs to do unto others what you do to those here, then that's their prerogative. What a shame.
Religious practices are meant to align ourselves with the heart of God and in doing so, make all of our relationships better, but Jesus saw that religious practices of his day were sometimes doing the opposite, that people were doing religion in order to promote themselves to seek honor and status. A pursuit of doing right by God and others can actually end up being this distorted self-congratulating type of practice that is very common in religious communities, he calls this the way of hypocrisy. Hypocrite is a Greek word spelled with English letters, “hypocrites” is the Greek word, but we say hypocrite. What Jesus means by hypocrite, is not what the English word has come to mean, the do as I say, not as I do mentality.
 

dak

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Religious practices are meant to align ourselves with the heart of God and in doing so, make all of our relationships better, but Jesus saw that religious practices of his day were sometimes doing the opposite, that people were doing religion in order to promote themselves to seek honor and status. A pursuit of doing right by God and others can actually end up being this distorted self-congratulating type of practice that is very common in religious communities, he calls this the way of hypocrisy. Hypocrite is a Greek word spelled with English letters, “hypocrites” is the Greek word, but we say hypocrite. What Jesus means by hypocrite, is not what the English word has come to mean, the do as I say, not as I do mentality.

Most of your responses to what people say to you are generally incoherent, not having anything to do with what they have said: I don't know if that is because such responses are deflections, or if perhaps they are simply because of some sort of defense mechanism. However I do not feel a need to find out the answer either way. I am not here to discuss such things: as anyone else may see looking back on my part of the discussion herein, I am here to discuss the scripture and correct doctrine from the scripture. You ignored all that was posted in this regard. So be it.
 

newnature

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Most of your responses to what people say to you are generally incoherent, not having anything to do with what they have said: I don't know if that is because such responses are deflections, or if perhaps they are simply because of some sort of defense mechanism. However I do not feel a need to find out the answer either way. I am not here to discuss such things: as anyone else may see looking back on my part of the discussion herein, I am here to discuss the scripture and correct doctrine from the scripture. You ignored all that was posted in this regard. So be it.
There is an instruction in Ephesians 5:1 that seems impossible at first reading, imitate God, not admire him from a distance, not just obey him out of obligation, but imitate him, reproduce in daily life something of the character of the one who created the universe. This instruction only makes sense within a relationship, Paul is not inviting anyone to try to copy divine attributes by their own effort, he is speaking to children, people who having received the life of God, carry within them the ability to reflect something of the father. Just as a child naturally reproduces gestures, expressions and values of the parents they live with. The believer who dwells in the presence of God, begins to reflect what they contemplate.
 

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Go learn the meanings of these commandments of the Master:
As you asked, this is the meaning, and it's not twisted like you are trying to do. Jesus did not tell Nicodemus, “Go master Torah symbolism.” He did not tell him, “Go back into a covenant-mother system.” He did not send him chasing hidden meanings through scattered texts. The Lord put the knife right on the root and said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” ~John 3:3. That is not foggy. That is not mystical. That is plain.

The sinner’s problem is not that he has failed to decode enough Torah shadows. The sinner’s problem is that he is dead in sin and needs life from above. Jesus said, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” ~John 3:6. You can dress flesh in religious language, Hebrew terms, covenant language, and Old Testament references, but flesh is still flesh until the Spirit of God gives life.

You brought in Mark 9, Isaiah 66, and Leviticus 2, but none of those verses undo John 3. Quoting more Scripture does not help if the verses are being used to pull people away from the plain meaning of Christ’s words. The question is not whether the Old Testament is God’s Word. It is. The question is whether you are using it the way Christ and the apostles used it, or using it to build a maze around the gospel.

Paul did not say we are saved by Torah re-education. He said God saved us “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy... by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” ~Titus 3:5. That is the new birth. That is the work of God. That is not man climbing back into some covenant womb. That is God making a dead sinner alive.

And let us be plain about this: when you keep shifting the issue from Christ’s finished work to man’s proving, learning, decoding, and performing, you are not clarifying the gospel. You are clouding it. Scripture says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” ~Ephesians 2:8-9.

Yes, true faith obeys. Yes, a born-again man will bear fruit. But fruit does not create the root. Obedience does not cause the new birth. Works do not purchase life. The Spirit gives life, and the living man then walks in obedience.

So the issue is simple: are we going to let Jesus define the new birth, or are we going to bury His words under a pile of religious fog? Christ said, “Ye must be born again” ~John 3:7. That is the line. That is the need. That is where every sinner must be brought face to face with God.
 
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dak

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As you asked, this is the meaning, and it's not twisted like you are trying to do. Jesus did not tell Nicodemus, “Go master Torah symbolism.” He did not tell him, “Go back into a covenant-mother system.” He did not send him chasing hidden meanings through scattered texts. The Lord put the knife right on the root and said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” ~John 3:3. That is not foggy. That is not mystical. That is plain.

The sinner’s problem is not that he has failed to decode enough Torah shadows. The sinner’s problem is that he is dead in sin and needs life from above. Jesus said, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” ~John 3:6. You can dress flesh in religious language, Hebrew terms, covenant language, and Old Testament references, but flesh is still flesh until the Spirit of God gives life.

You brought in Mark 9, Isaiah 66, and Leviticus 2, but none of those verses undo John 3. Quoting more Scripture does not help if the verses are being used to pull people away from the plain meaning of Christ’s words. The question is not whether the Old Testament is God’s Word. It is. The question is whether you are using it the way Christ and the apostles used it, or using it to build a maze around the gospel.

Paul did not say we are saved by Torah re-education. He said God saved us “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy... by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” ~Titus 3:5. That is the new birth. That is the work of God. That is not man climbing back into some covenant womb. That is God making a dead sinner alive.

And let us be plain about this: when you keep shifting the issue from Christ’s finished work to man’s proving, learning, decoding, and performing, you are not clarifying the gospel. You are clouding it. Scripture says, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast” ~Ephesians 2:8-9.

Yes, true faith obeys. Yes, a born-again man will bear fruit. But fruit does not create the root. Obedience does not cause the new birth. Works do not purchase life. The Spirit gives life, and the living man then walks in obedience.

So the issue is simple: are we going to let Jesus define the new birth, or are we going to bury His words under a pile of religious fog? Christ said, “Ye must be born again” ~John 3:7. That is the line. That is the need. That is where every sinner must be brought face to face with God.

No, you did not answer anything I wrote and quoted in that post to you.
Why did you omit the entire post except for the first line?

Here it is again for those who did not see it:

QUOTE:
Go learn the meanings of these commandments of the Master:

Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, [Mat 5:13a] and have peace one with another.

Isaiah 66:19-24
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; [Mark 9:44, 46, 48] and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And Lev 2:13 is the only place in the Torah where the salt commandment is given:

Leviticus 2:13
13 And you shall season every offering of your grain offering with salt, and you shall not allow the salt of the covenant of your Elohim to be lacking from your grain offering. With all your offerings you shall bring salt. [Mark 9:49b]
END QUOTE.


The above is all I posted to you: nothing about anything else that was under discussion with the OP. Why would you refuse to study it out for yourself and then return here and pretend that you did?

This is the only answer I have for you at this point:

John 14:15 KJV
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 KJV
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:24 KJV
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 12:47-50 KJV
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
 

newnature

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No, you did not answer anything I wrote and quoted in that post to you.
Why did you omit the entire post except for the first line?

Here it is again for those who did not see it:

QUOTE:
Go learn the meanings of these commandments of the Master:

Mark 9:43-50 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [Isa 66:24]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [Lev 2:13]
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, [Mat 5:13a] and have peace one with another.

Isaiah 66:19-24
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; [Mark 9:44, 46, 48] and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And Lev 2:13 is the only place in the Torah where the salt commandment is given:

Leviticus 2:13
13 And you shall season every offering of your grain offering with salt, and you shall not allow the salt of the covenant of your Elohim to be lacking from your grain offering. With all your offerings you shall bring salt. [Mark 9:49b]
END QUOTE.


The above is all I posted to you: nothing about anything else that was under discussion with the OP. Why would you refuse to study it out for yourself and then return here and pretend that you did?

This is the only answer I have for you at this point:

John 14:15 KJV
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 KJV
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 14:24 KJV
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 12:47-50 KJV
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
The order observed in the liturgy of now, finds its ultimate grounding in the physical and metaphysical reality of the resurrection, the event that anchors all Christian hope in the solidity of transformed matter. 1 Corinthians chapter 15 indicates that Christian hope does not reside in a platonic escape from matter, but in its radical and definitive transformation. Paul confronts the heresy of a purely intellectual or ethereal spirituality, asserting that if Christ did not redeem biology from corruption, faith is an empty semantic construct and man remains trapped in the nihilism of death. Resurrection is not a myth of the immortality of the soul, but an ontological revolution that claims every atom of creation.
 

dak

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The order observed in the liturgy of now, finds its ultimate grounding in the physical and metaphysical reality of the resurrection, the event that anchors all Christian hope in the solidity of transformed matter. 1 Corinthians chapter 15 indicates that Christian hope does not reside in a platonic escape from matter, but in its radical and definitive transformation. Paul confronts the heresy of a purely intellectual or ethereal spirituality, asserting that if Christ did not redeem biology from corruption, faith is an empty semantic construct and man remains trapped in the nihilism of death. Resurrection is not a myth of the immortality of the soul, but an ontological revolution that claims every atom of creation.

Now it appears you are teaching an entirely different Gospel than what Paul preaches, even in the same chapter which you have referenced, 1Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15:34-50 ASV
34 Awake to soberness righteously, and sin not; for some have no knowledge of God: I speak this to move you to shame.
35 But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?
36 Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die:
37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind;
38 but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fishes.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. [Gen 2:7] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: [Gen 2:7] the second man is of heaven. [Gen 1:26-28]
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

That's a big part of our differences:
You sow to the flesh, I have been taught by Elohim not to do so.

Galatians 6:6-8 ASV
6 But let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life.

If you had done what the Master commands in the Mark 9 passage, which you have now quoted from my post, you would have understood that Paul preaches the same principles when he admonishes the reader to mortify or put to death the deeds/works of the body and our members upon-concerning the earth, (Rom 8:13+Col 3:5). For sin dwells in the flesh, and sin is personified, and as Paul also says, there is a war in our members warring against the Torah of the mind, (Rom 7:14-25), and it is therefore a spiritual war or warfare. According to Paul's Gospel therefore you and yours herein are to be counted as accursed for preaching a false gospel. You are spiritually blind men having learned from the spiritually blind men and now imagine yourselves as leaders and correctors of those you deem to be spiritually blind because they do not agree with your dogmas and decrees.
 

newnature

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Now it appears you are teaching an entirely different Gospel than what Paul preaches, even in the same chapter which you have referenced, 1Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15:34-50 ASV
34 Awake to soberness righteously, and sin not; for some have no knowledge of God: I speak this to move you to shame.
35 But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?
36 Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die:
37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind;
38 but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fishes.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. [Gen 2:7] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: [Gen 2:7] the second man is of heaven. [Gen 1:26-28]
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

That's a big part of our differences:
You sow to the flesh, I have been taught by Elohim not to do so.

Galatians 6:6-8 ASV
6 But let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life.

If you had done what the Master commands in the Mark 9 passage, which you have now quoted from my post, you would have understood that Paul preaches the same principles when he admonishes the reader to mortify or put to death the deeds/works of the body and our members upon-concerning the earth, (Rom 8:13+Col 3:5). For sin dwells in the flesh, and sin is personified, and as Paul also says, there is a war in our members warring against the Torah of the mind, (Rom 7:14-25), and it is therefore a spiritual war or warfare. According to Paul's Gospel therefore you and yours herein are to be counted as accursed for preaching a false gospel. You are spiritually blind men having learned from the spiritually blind men and now imagine yourselves as leaders and correctors of those you deem to be spiritually blind because they do not agree with your dogmas and decrees.
Galatians 5:24, Paul then tells you what has happened to your old nature, it is something that has already happened, when you put your faith in Jesus Christ, your old self died with him on the cross. The power of sin over was broken, crucifixion is a brutal image, it is a slow, painful death, Paul uses this word to show you that you must be ruthless with your sin. You do not coddle your sinful desires, you do not play with them, you kill them, you recognize that they are enemies of your soul. Although the flesh was defeated at the cross, you have to live out that reality every day. You have to look at your jealousy and say, you are dead, you have no authority over me. You have to look at your lust and say, I am dead to you, it is an active calming of the victory Jesus Christ already won.
 

newnature

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Now it appears you are teaching an entirely different Gospel than what Paul preaches, even in the same chapter which you have referenced, 1Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15:34-50 ASV
34 Awake to soberness righteously, and sin not; for some have no knowledge of God: I speak this to move you to shame.
35 But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?
36 Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die:
37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind;
38 but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fishes.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. [Gen 2:7] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: [Gen 2:7] the second man is of heaven. [Gen 1:26-28]
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

That's a big part of our differences:
You sow to the flesh, I have been taught by Elohim not to do so.

Galatians 6:6-8 ASV
6 But let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life.

If you had done what the Master commands in the Mark 9 passage, which you have now quoted from my post, you would have understood that Paul preaches the same principles when he admonishes the reader to mortify or put to death the deeds/works of the body and our members upon-concerning the earth, (Rom 8:13+Col 3:5). For sin dwells in the flesh, and sin is personified, and as Paul also says, there is a war in our members warring against the Torah of the mind, (Rom 7:14-25), and it is therefore a spiritual war or warfare. According to Paul's Gospel therefore you and yours herein are to be counted as accursed for preaching a false gospel. You are spiritually blind men having learned from the spiritually blind men and now imagine yourselves as leaders and correctors of those you deem to be spiritually blind because they do not agree with your dogmas and decrees.
Ephesians 4:15, truth without love becomes a weapon, love without truth becomes sentimentality, the new man balances these two dimensions, believers speak the truth, because they love people enough not to let them live in deception. The new man speaks with compassion, recognizing the believers own fragility, Proverbs 27:6, sometimes speaking the truth hurts, but it is a love that chooses to hurt temporarily, rather than allow someone to continue on a destructive path. The practice of truth also involves honesty with oneself, many believers lie to themselves about the real state of their hearts, they rationalize sin, justify wrong attitudes, deny areas of disobedience. But the new man lives in the light, believers confessing their shortcomings and seeking continuous transformation through the grace of God.
 

newnature

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Mar 24, 2011
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Now it appears you are teaching an entirely different Gospel than what Paul preaches, even in the same chapter which you have referenced, 1Cor 15.

1 Corinthians 15:34-50 ASV
34 Awake to soberness righteously, and sin not; for some have no knowledge of God: I speak this to move you to shame.
35 But some one will say, How are the dead raised? and with what manner of body do they come?
36 Thou foolish one, that which thou thyself sowest is not quickened except it die:
37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be, but a bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other kind;
38 but God giveth it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fishes.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 it is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 it is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. [Gen 2:7] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 Howbeit that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: [Gen 2:7] the second man is of heaven. [Gen 1:26-28]
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

That's a big part of our differences:
You sow to the flesh, I have been taught by Elohim not to do so.

Galatians 6:6-8 ASV
6 But let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life.

If you had done what the Master commands in the Mark 9 passage, which you have now quoted from my post, you would have understood that Paul preaches the same principles when he admonishes the reader to mortify or put to death the deeds/works of the body and our members upon-concerning the earth, (Rom 8:13+Col 3:5). For sin dwells in the flesh, and sin is personified, and as Paul also says, there is a war in our members warring against the Torah of the mind, (Rom 7:14-25), and it is therefore a spiritual war or warfare. According to Paul's Gospel therefore you and yours herein are to be counted as accursed for preaching a false gospel. You are spiritually blind men having learned from the spiritually blind men and now imagine yourselves as leaders and correctors of those you deem to be spiritually blind because they do not agree with your dogmas and decrees.
Titus 1:2, when the new man speaks the truth, the believer is reflecting the nature of the one who created you. Paul is not only prohibiting explicit lies, he is calling for a culture of transparency and integrity in the body of Christ, to speak the truth with one’s neighbor has a deep relational dimension, the neighbor here is not just anyone, but especially the members of the body of Christ, because we are members of one another. When you lie to another believer, you are harming the very body of which you are a part, it is like a hand deceiving the foot about the location of an obstacle. Lying destroys trust and without trust, there is no genuine fellowship.
 

dak

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Titus 1:2, when the new man speaks the truth, the believer is reflecting the nature of the one who created you. Paul is not only prohibiting explicit lies, he is calling for a culture of transparency and integrity in the body of Christ, to speak the truth with one’s neighbor has a deep relational dimension, the neighbor here is not just anyone, but especially the members of the body of Christ, because we are members of one another. When you lie to another believer, you are harming the very body of which you are a part, it is like a hand deceiving the foot about the location of an obstacle. Lying destroys trust and without trust, there is no genuine fellowship.

Then perhaps you should practice what you preach? Why are there never any scriptures actually proving your philosophical commentaries? They are always 98% your words with one or two scripture verses referenced: no actual exegesis of passages and contexts that prove your claims. You are the one playing games with the body of believers here: and every time someone calls you out for errors you ignore and change the subject.
 

newnature

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Then perhaps you should practice what you preach? Why are there never any scriptures actually proving your philosophical commentaries? They are always 98% your words with one or two scripture verses referenced: no actual exegesis of passages and contexts that prove your claims. You are the one playing games with the body of believers here: and every time someone calls you out for errors you ignore and change the subject.
Ephesians 4:24, presents the positive side of the command, to put on the new man, to shed the old, is an act of death, to put on the new, is an act of resurrection. Paul is not asking Christians to create a new version of themselves through moral effort, he is saying, that there is already a new man created according to God in true righteousness and holiness. Created, this is the same word used for the original creation of the world, this means that the new man is not a reform of the old, but a completely new creation, it is something that God has done, not something you produce, your responsibility is to put on this new identity, to live according to who you have already become in Christ.
 

bdavidc

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No, you did not answer anything I wrote and quoted in that post to you.
Why did you omit the entire post except for the first line?
I did not omit the point. I answered the point you were making with those passages.

The issue is not whether Mark 9 quotes Isaiah 66 or whether Mark 9:49 connects with sacrificial salt language from Leviticus 2:13. Those connections are there. The issue is what you are trying to make those connections prove.

Mark 9 is not Jesus telling Nicodemus, or anyone else, that the new birth means mastering Torah symbolism. Mark 9 is a warning about the seriousness of sin, judgment, hell, and the need to deal radically with whatever causes stumbling. Jesus said, “If thy hand offend thee, cut it off” ~Mark 9:43. That is not a command to perform self-mutilation, and it is not a command to decode Levitical grain offerings in order to be born again. It is a severe warning about sin and judgment.

Isaiah 66:24 is being used by Christ to show the horror and finality of judgment. That supports the seriousness of His warning. It does not redefine the new birth in John 3.

Leviticus 2:13 dealt with salt in the offerings under the law. Mark 9:49 says, “For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.” Fine. But again, that does not overturn Jesus’ plain statement in John 3:6: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” The new birth is the work of the Spirit, not man climbing through symbolic systems.

You then quoted John 14:15, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” I agree with that verse completely. But obedience is the fruit of love for Christ, not the cause of regeneration. Jesus did not say, “Keep commandments so you may be born again.” He said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” ~John 3:3.

That distinction matters.

A dead sinner does not obey his way into life. Christ gives life, and the one made alive follows Him. Paul said God saved us “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy... by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” ~Titus 3:5. That is the same truth Jesus taught in John 3.

So here is the real question: are you using Mark 9, Isaiah 66, and Leviticus 2 to uphold what Jesus plainly taught about judgment, holiness, and obedience, or are you using them to move the discussion away from the plain meaning of the new birth?

Because John 3 is not unclear. “Ye must be born again” ~John 3:7. Not merely instructed. Not symbolically salted. Not religiously sharpened. Born again. Life from above by the Spirit of God.

Obedience matters. Sin must be dealt with. Hell is real. Christ’s commandments are binding. But none of that changes the order Scripture gives. Life comes first. Fruit follows. The Spirit gives life. The living man obeys.
 
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dak

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I did not omit the point. I answered the point you were making with those passages.

The issue is not whether Mark 9 quotes Isaiah 66 or whether Mark 9:49 connects with sacrificial salt language from Leviticus 2:13. Those connections are there. The issue is what you are trying to make those connections prove.

Mark 9 is not Jesus telling Nicodemus, or anyone else, that the new birth means mastering Torah symbolism. Mark 9 is a warning about the seriousness of sin, judgment, hell, and the need to deal radically with whatever causes stumbling. Jesus said, “If thy hand offend thee, cut it off” ~Mark 9:43. That is not a command to perform self-mutilation, and it is not a command to decode Levitical grain offerings in order to be born again. It is a severe warning about sin and judgment.

Isaiah 66:24 is being used by Christ to show the horror and finality of judgment. That supports the seriousness of His warning. It does not redefine the new birth in John 3.

Leviticus 2:13 dealt with salt in the offerings under the law. Mark 9:49 says, “For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.” Fine. But again, that does not overturn Jesus’ plain statement in John 3:6: “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” The new birth is the work of the Spirit, not man climbing through symbolic systems.

You then quoted John 14:15, “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” I agree with that verse completely. But obedience is the fruit of love for Christ, not the cause of regeneration. Jesus did not say, “Keep commandments so you may be born again.” He said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” ~John 3:3.

That distinction matters.

A dead sinner does not obey his way into life. Christ gives life, and the one made alive follows Him. Paul said God saved us “not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy... by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” ~Titus 3:5. That is the same truth Jesus taught in John 3.

So here is the real question: are you using Mark 9, Isaiah 66, and Leviticus 2 to uphold what Jesus plainly taught about judgment, holiness, and obedience, or are you using them to move the discussion away from the plain meaning of the new birth?

Because John 3 is not unclear. “Ye must be born again” ~John 3:7. Not merely instructed. Not symbolically salted. Not religiously sharpened. Born again. Life from above by the Spirit of God.

Obedience matters. Sin must be dealt with. Hell is real. Christ’s commandments are binding. But none of that changes the order Scripture gives. Life comes first. Fruit follows. The Spirit gives life. The living man obeys.

You've already proven the point made by what I said and quoted to you from the Master. You are not willing to go back into the Torah and relearn everything so as to escape the abominations you have been taught by the Pharisees in the Pharisaic Masoretic text, no, you will not even do it so as to understand the Testimony and commandments of the Master, and thereby to understand the Torah so as to walk pleasing to the Father in His Son. The carnal mind cannot please Elohim: which is probably why you flee from anything that sounds spiritual. The Torah is spiritual, Romans 7:14a: but we are carnal, sold under sin, Rom 7:14b-c, and therefore we are debtors.

Suit yourself: I'm not here to try to force anything on anyone.
Nice chatting. . . tea.gif
 

newnature

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You've already proven the point made by what I said and quoted to you from the Master. You are not willing to go back into the Torah and relearn everything so as to escape the abominations you have been taught by the Pharisees in the Pharisaic Masoretic text, no, you will not even do it so as to understand the Testimony and commandments of the Master, and thereby to understand the Torah so as to walk pleasing to the Father in His Son. The carnal mind cannot please Elohim: which is probably why you flee from anything that sounds spiritual. The Torah is spiritual, Romans 7:14a: but we are carnal, sold under sin, Rom 7:14b-c, and therefore we are debtors.

Suit yourself: I'm not here to try to force anything on anyone.
Nice chatting. . . View attachment 83899
Between the shedding of the old and the putting on of the new, Paul inserts an essential element in Ephesians 4:23, to be renewed in the spirit of your mind. This phrase is the central axis of transformation, the mind is the battlefield where change occurs or fails. The renewed mind suggests a continuous renewal, not a one-time event, it’s a process of replacing old thought patterns with new ones, of substituting lies with truth, of dismantling mental strongholds that supported the old way of living. The renewed mind is not an empty mind, but a reoriented mind, realigned with the truth of God, this is where many Christians fail, they try to change behavior without renewing the mind and the result is a frustrating struggle between what they know they should do and what they continue to think and feel.