I wish evolution was true ... because I would have Wings

UppsalaDragby · Feb 25, 2014

River Jordan said:
Using the same criteria by which you evaluate evolution, how do you know the earth is round?

You are assuming that the criteria by which I evaluate evolution differs from the criteria by which I evaluate the shape of the earth. It isn't, but you are welcome to explain why you think it is.

You don't think it's just a little hypocritical for a group of people to use a computer and the internet to decry scientists as atheists who are out to sway people away from God?

What rubbish! Where did I "decry" atheists in the way you are suggesting? You seem to like spitting out ridiculous strawmen whenever it pleases you to do so. I haven't even used the word "atheists" in our discussions, which clearly shows how careful you are to weigh up the arguments being used. Why don't you be honest here and stick to what I have written instead of twisting things around to suit your prejudices.

The childish personal stuff aside, whether I'm a Christian isn't an issue. If you think it is, please explain why.

If the Bible warns us to be wary of sheep in wolves clothing then I don't consider it to be "childish personal stuff". Jesus called a spade a spade and so do I. And as I pointed out before, if you don't like the heat then don't dish it out in the first place.

That's for several reasons.
1) I am a Christian youth minister as well as a professional scientist. Kids in our ministry bring up this subject a lot, especially to me.
2) I see this as a major hindrance to our ability to preach the Gospel to the lost. As long as Christians keep tying demonstrably false arguments to Christianity, we are guaranteed to lose converts.
3) There are a lot of threads on this subject, and they're very active. It's really all I have time for.

Well I consider preaching evolution to be a major hinderance to preaching the Gospel to the lost, because it gives people the false impression that the Bible can be interpreted in any wishy-washy way they want, including the Gospel itself. Somehow you seem to assume that if all Christians just throw up their arms, reject the Genesis acount, and preach evolution as you are doing then all our problems will be solved. But Christianity is not about following all the whims of this world, and if you remove all the teachings of scripture that offend us and do not conform to the spirit of this world, then what are you left with? Everyone who professes to be a Christian is going to be tested, and those who are prone to walk by sight rather than faith are going to reject Christianity sooner or later.

Again, resorting to childish personal insults noted. It's sad that you and other fundamentalists here have to sink to that level over and over again. It's very revealing too. Does my presence here make you angry? Are you like KingJ and some of the other fundies here who think that I should be made to "shut my mouth", sit down, and listen to my elders? Is that how you deal with everyone who's different than you in real life?
Do you guys want this forum to be more like your churches, where dissent is not tolerated?
Finally regarding that other forum, you referred me there in the context of discussing science with people who are better qualified. But as AFAICT, such expertise is sorely lacking and it's a lot like my interactions here (variations on the "were you there" theme, and personal insults).

Well I consider making sweeping, AND insulting statements about creationists to be childish too, especially when you complain to other members about making sweeping statements. So it's not only childing and insulting, it's hyprocritical too.

As far as the other site is concerned, saying things such as you found their expertise to be sorely lacking is exactly what one would expect you to say! And when exactly, during your FIRST day of interaction there, did anyone use the argument "were you there"? While asking such a thing of someone who seems to think that the claims made by evolutionists are unquestionable, I don't recall anyone using that kind of argument.

Perhaps you would like to clarify?

Also, what personal insults were used against you there?

River Jordan · Feb 25, 2014

Mr, Bride,

So is it truth or a lie that new species have been observed to evolve?

UppsalaDragby said:
You are assuming that the criteria by which I evaluate evolution differs from the criteria by which I evaluate the shape of the earth. It isn't, but you are welcome to explain why you think it is.

You certainly are adept at dodging questions. IMO, that you do this so often tells me a lot about you.

What rubbish! Where did I "decry" atheists in the way you are suggesting? You seem to like spitting out ridiculous strawmen whenever it pleases you to do so. I haven't even used the word "atheists" in our discussions, which clearly shows how careful you are to weigh up the arguments being used. Why don't you be honest here and stick to what I have written instead of twisting things around to suit your prejudices.

Please pay attention. I specifically said "a group of people" and that was in response to your statement about "creationists" in a general sense.

If the Bible warns us to be wary of sheep in wolves clothing then I don't consider it to be "childish personal stuff". Jesus called a spade a spade and so do I. And as I pointed out before, if you don't like the heat then don't dish it out in the first place.

Do you think all non young-earth creationists are "wolves in sheep's clothing"? For example, is Francis Collins (who's been very outspoken about how he sees no conflict with Christianity and evolution) one? Ken Miller? I mean, I mostly just talk to kids at my church and post on internet forums. Those guys write very high-profile books!

Well I consider preaching evolution to be a major hinderance to preaching the Gospel to the lost, because it gives people the false impression that the Bible can be interpreted in any wishy-washy way they want, including the Gospel itself.

I wish you were open and honest like this more often. Statements like that make it extremely clear, and leave absolutely no doubt, what the real issue is for you.

Somehow you seem to assume that if all Christians just throw up their arms, reject the Genesis acount, and preach evolution as you are doing then all our problems will be solved.

Nope, not at all. I've never once proposed anyone reject the Genesis account. But every time I've tried to discuss its interpretation, you clam up and go all evasive. That says to me that your position is pretty set in stone and as soon as it's even the slightest bit questioned or threatened, you do everything you can to not talk about it.

Well I consider making sweeping, AND insulting statements about creationists to be childish too, especially when you complain to other members about making sweeping statements. So it's not only childing and insulting, it's hyprocritical too.

Can you give an example of my making such statements?

As far as the other site is concerned, saying things such as you found their expertise to be sorely lacking is exactly what one would expect you to say! And when exactly, during your FIRST day of interaction there, did anyone use the argument "were you there"? While asking such a thing of someone who seems to think that the claims made by evolutionists are unquestionable, I don't recall anyone using that kind of argument.

Perhaps you would like to clarify?

First of all, if there's a lack of expertise in evolutionary biology, or the sciences in general, at that forum, why is it so terrible to point that out (especially given that that's the context in which you referred me there)? Am I just supposed to say something like, "Wow, sure is a high level of expertise at that place", even if it's not true?

And I though you didn't want to discuss the goings-on there in this forum? Which is it?

Mr.Bride · Feb 25, 2014

River Jordan,

So what do you want people to do with the Genesis account? You want people to know that it's a lie right?

& you might as well don't ask me nothing about anything evolving. Ask me something about the true and Living Word then we're talkin'.

River Jordan · Feb 25, 2014

For the love of.......

I'm going to say this one more time, and please do everything you can to read this very carefully and pay close attention to what I actually say.

I'm not asking anyone to do anything with the Genesis account, and I'm certainly don't think it's a "lie" (why you would think that given how many times I've posted otherwise is a testament to how you've not really been reading what I post). All I'm asking is for those who are young-earth creationists, and who think being a YEC is vitally important to being a Christian to stop making demonstrably false arguments about science.

There's absolutely no doubt that YEC is first and foremost based on a particular reading of scripture. That's fine....just be honest with that fact. Don't try and make it appear as if your YEC is scientifically based or valid, especially when you've never even really studied actual science. Giving the impression otherwise is fundamentally dishonest.

Just say "I'm a YEC because that's what I believe God's Word clearly teaches" and stop there. There's absolutely no need to take that next step into the science world and start making ridiculous and wrong arguments about genetics, radiometric dating, fossils, etc.

IOW, it's very simple.....stop trying to argue YEC from a scientific perspective. You're making Christianity look foolish.

Mr.Bride · Feb 25, 2014

Well, that excludes me. Don't know nothing about science and don't care to know. Ur a trip River.

Elizabeth · Feb 25, 2014

Arnie Manitoba said:
.

Ever since mankind saw birds in the air he has wanted to fly.

If evolution is true men should definitely have wings by now.

Or at least be sprouting the origins of some little wings on his shoulders .

The theory of evolution has become the religion of atheists.

River Jordan · Feb 25, 2014

Elizabeth said:
The theory of evolution has become the religion of atheists.

Why do you have to say that? Are you aware that the majority of "evolutionists" are theists? I'm curious what compels someone to post such a thing.

snr5557 · Feb 25, 2014

Elizabeth said:
The theory of evolution has become the religion of atheists.

Have you been following all of the debates on this, or have you just jumped in? We've been talking about this for awhile, and we have actually already discussed that misconception, that is the reason I'm asking.

Elizabeth · Feb 25, 2014

River Jordan said:
Why do you have to say that? Are you aware that the majority of "evolutionists" are theists? I'm curious what compels someone to post such a thing.

Evolution is not a science, but a false religion which foolish people hope in.

snr5557 said:
Have you been following all of the debates on this, or have you just jumped in? We've been talking about this for awhile, and we have actually already discussed that misconception, that is the reason I'm asking.

You haven't proven it to be a misconception because it's not a misconception. Can you explain where the intellect and will come from?

River Jordan · Feb 25, 2014

Elizabeth said:
Evolution is not a science, but a false religion which foolish people hope in.

Why? Because you say so?

Elizabeth · Feb 25, 2014

The theory of evolution is false. It is simply not true. Actually, it is just a fairy tale for adults based on ancient pagan religious philosophy that hundreds of millions of people around the world choose to believe with blind faith. When asked to produce evidence for the theory of evolution, most adults in the western world come up totally blank. When pressed, most people will mumble something about how “most scientists believe it” and how that is good enough for them. This kind of anti-intellectualism even runs rampant on our college campuses. If you doubt this, just go to a college campus some time and start asking students why they believe in evolution. Very few of them will actually be able to give you any real reasons why they believe it. Most of them just have blind faith in the priest class in our society (“the scientists”). But is what our priest class telling us actually true? When Charles Darwin popularized the theory of evolution, he didn’t actually have any evidence that it was true. And since then the missing evidence has still not materialized. Most Americans would be absolutely shocked to learn that most of what is taught as “truth” about evolution is actually the product of the overactive imaginations of members of the scientific community. They so badly want to believe that it is true that they will go to extraordinary lengths to defend their fairy tale. They keep insisting that the theory of evolution has been “proven” and that it is beyond debate. Meanwhile, most average people are intimidated into accepting the “truth” about evolution because they don’t want to appear to be “stupid” to everyone else.

In this day and age, it is imperative that we all learn to think for ourselves. Don’t let me tell you what to think, and don’t let anyone else tell you what to think either. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions. The following are 44 reasons why evolution is just a fairy tale for adults…

44 Reasons Why Evolution Is False: http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/truthreport/44-reasons-evolution-false/#.Uw0TVc69bmM

snr5557 · Feb 25, 2014

Elizabeth said:
The theory of evolution is false. It is simply not true. Actually, it is just a fairy tale for adults based on ancient pagan religious philosophy that hundreds of millions of people around the world choose to believe with blind faith. When asked to produce evidence for the theory of evolution, most adults in the western world come up totally blank. When pressed, most people will mumble something about how “most scientists believe it” and how that is good enough for them. This kind of anti-intellectualism even runs rampant on our college campuses. If you doubt this, just go to a college campus some time and start asking students why they believe in evolution. Very few of them will actually be able to give you any real reasons why they believe it. Most of them just have blind faith in the priest class in our society (“the scientists”). But is what our priest class telling us actually true? When Charles Darwin popularized the theory of evolution, he didn’t actually have any evidence that it was true. And since then the missing evidence has still not materialized. Most Americans would be absolutely shocked to learn that most of what is taught as “truth” about evolution is actually the product of the overactive imaginations of members of the scientific community. They so badly want to believe that it is true that they will go to extraordinary lengths to defend their fairy tale. They keep insisting that the theory of evolution has been “proven” and that it is beyond debate. Meanwhile, most average people are intimidated into accepting the “truth” about evolution because they don’t want to appear to be “stupid” to everyone else.

In this day and age, it is imperative that we all learn to think for ourselves. Don’t let me tell you what to think, and don’t let anyone else tell you what to think either. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions. The following are 44 reasons why evolution is just a fairy tale for adults…

44 Reasons Why Evolution Is False: http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/truthreport/44-reasons-evolution-false/#.Uw0TVc69bmM

Haven't Popes said that evolution is true? And, although I have a limited knowledge of Catholicism, isn't the Pope in charge of Catholics? If he is more of a figure head please tell me.

"'To say the Church errs is to say no less that God errs, or else that He is willing and desirous for us to err; which would be a great blasphemy.' (The Catholic Controversy, St. Francis de Sales)"

If the Pope is actually more than a figure head, aren't you required by your faith to believe Him, and to say otherwise is blasphemy? That's just what the quote you have says, so if that isn't true and is used more in a joking manner (I know people do that sometimes) please just say so.

River Jordan · Feb 25, 2014

Elizabeth,

Oh, so you should be very interested to examine the material in THIS POST, where it's shown to be documented fact that new species evolve, new traits and abilities evolve, new genetic sequences evolve, transitional fossils are abundant, and a host of other scientific facts that show the claims at the link you provided to be untrue.

So back to my question from before...why are so many Christians so eager to promote and propagate these falsehoods? We are supposed to be truthful in everything we do, yet time and time again creationists say one thing after another that just isn't true.

Elizabeth · Feb 25, 2014

River Jordan said:
Elizabeth,

Oh, so you should be very interested to examine the material in THIS POST, where it's shown to be documented fact that new species evolve, new traits and abilities evolve, new genetic sequences evolve, transitional fossils are abundant, and a host of other scientific facts that show the claims at the link you provided to be untrue.

So back to my question from before...why are so many Christians so eager to promote and propagate these falsehoods? We are supposed to be truthful in everything we do, yet time and time again creationists say one thing after another that just isn't true.

I've seen those links already. They provide no scientific facts, no proof for the false religion you so aggressively defend.

snr5557 said:
Haven't Popes said that evolution is true? And, although I have a limited knowledge of Catholicism, isn't the Pope in charge of Catholics? If he is more of a figure head please tell me.

"'To say the Church errs is to say no less that God errs, or else that He is willing and desirous for us to err; which would be a great blasphemy.' (The Catholic Controversy, St. Francis de Sales)"

If the Pope is actually more than a figure head, aren't you required by your faith to believe Him, and to say otherwise is blasphemy? That's just what the quote you have says, so if that isn't true and is used more in a joking manner (I know people do that sometimes) please just say so.

That's another topic for another time.

River Jordan · Feb 25, 2014

Elizabeth said:
I've seen those links already. They provide no scientific facts, no proof for the false religion you so aggressively defend.

Wow. Did you read every single one of the papers and articles in there?

snr5557 · Feb 25, 2014

Elizabeth said:
I've seen those links already. They provide no scientific facts, no proof for the false religion you so aggressively defend.

That's another topic for another time.

What was wrong with them? Can you please tell me where you saw that they were false?

Elizabeth said:
That's another topic for another time.

Well it's kind of relevant. According to the Catholic faith (as I understand it, again I'm not too familiar with it) you have to go with what the Pope says, because he is appointed by God right? So, you are going against what the Pope says, which is going against God? If I'm getting Catholicism wrong just say so.

Elizabeth · Feb 25, 2014

River Jordan said:
Wow. Did you read every single one of the papers and articles in there?

River, no amount of reading is ever going to make true something that is of itself untrue. Your blind faith in the evolution fairy-tale is astounding.

What was wrong with them? Can you please tell me where you saw that they were false?

Can you please tell me where you saw that they were true?

snr5557 said:
Well it's kind of relevant. According to the Catholic faith (as I understand it, again I'm not too familiar with it) you have to go with what the Pope says, because he is appointed by God right? So, you are going against what the Pope says, which is going against God? If I'm getting Catholicism wrong just say so.

You're getting Catholicism wrong.

snr5557 · Feb 25, 2014

Elizabeth said:
River, no amount of reading is ever going to make true something that is of itself untrue. Your blind faith in the evolution fairy-tale is astounding.

Actually if you had read her posts you would see she has physically seen evolution, which is not the same as reading.

Can you please tell me where you saw that they were true?

So you don't actually know then?

I accept that science is not perfect, but I also know that the majority of scientists are not lying to deny God seeing as many are theists. I also know that science is based on theories that explain how certain processes happen, and that they are not making up facts to support their claims. Part of how the science world works is going through peer review. Other scientists view papers done by others to see how accurate it is, and if they feel that it is incorrect they will point it out. Also, scientists will re-perform what is described in the method section of a scientific paper to see if what they are saying is accurate, and if they get the same results (and this is repeated by multiple scientists) they accept that it is a good theory. I'm not going to go through every single article to explain how everything works because I honestly don't have time to do so. If you have a particular problem with part of an article or paper, please point to it, and River and/or I could try to explain it to you.

You're getting Catholicism wrong.

So the Pope is more of a figurehead than an authority figure/ leader in Catholicism?

Mr.Bride · Feb 25, 2014

Oh Snr, she has physically seen evolution huh...You sound like me telling un-believers, and make-believers that I physically saw Jesus. Y'all are adamant about y'all's I give you that. We call our experience the new-birth(Holy Ghost baptism)which removes all doubt. So y'all must have had like a evolutionary new-birth huh...I got ya now. Y'all got to know where y'all stand. The Word and what y'all preaching on two different playing fields. Simple and plain. We're supernatural and y'all just as natural as...

Blessings

KingJ · Feb 26, 2014

River Jordan said:
No unsaved atheist pushing evolution will ever do so in the direction of it being guided by God.

No unsaved atheist pushing plate tectonics will ever do so in the direction of it being guided by God.

No unsaved atheist pushing heliocentrism will ever do so in the direction of it being guided by God.

No unsaved atheist pushing volcanism will ever do so in the direction of it being guided by God.

No unsaved atheist pushing temperature gradients will ever do so in the direction of it being guided by God.

See how ridiculous that sounds?

No, I don't. Just the first one. The rest don't attack God. Age of earth undermines nudda. Evolution, God's very character.

snr5557 said:
Haven't Popes said that evolution is true? And, although I have a limited knowledge of Catholicism, isn't the Pope in charge of Catholics? If he is more of a figure head please tell me.

"'To say the Church errs is to say no less that God errs, or else that He is willing and desirous for us to err; which would be a great blasphemy.' (The Catholic Controversy, St. Francis de Sales)"

If the Pope is actually more than a figure head, aren't you required by your faith to believe Him, and to say otherwise is blasphemy? That's just what the quote you have says, so if that isn't true and is used more in a joking manner (I know people do that sometimes) please just say so.

The Catholic church is extra tolerant to any theory / claim made in the name of science because of the Galileo affair. Using them as grounds for believing it beyond doubt or even contributing to your cause is sad.

If you googled the infallible dogma on creation held by the Catholic church you will find that NO unsaved evolutionist will agree with it. This is what really does amaze me about you and River and cause me to question your integrity....no claims by any evolutionist support the notion of it being guided! If River doubts the tiktaalik for example, she will NOT say God had a hand there.

So whilst you claim to be Christian 'and' evolutionists you do not bat for it being guided / bible at all! Making all intelligent TE's who support every claim by evolutionists...simply hypocrites.

I wish evolution was true ... because I would have Wings

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