Eight objections to evolution

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Jericho

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How did we get here? There are really only two possibilities. Either we were created, or we evolved. That's it. There is no third possibility (at least none with any credibility). So, let's focus on a few of the problems of evolution. This is far from an exhaustive list; it is merely eight reasons why I don't believe evolution is a viable option for any reason.

1. Evolution is a theory that can't be proven using the scientific method. In the scientific method, you form your hypothesis and then test it with experiments to determine if it's true or not. But with evolution, there's nothing to test. It can't be duplicated in the lab; therefore, it can't be proven. That also highlights a big problem for evolution. If life was so simple to start by happenstance, we should be able to add a few crucial ingredients and create life in the lab, but that hasn't been the case.

Some people will point to evidence of a moth changing colors or insects becoming immune to pesticides as evidence of evolution. This is something called microevolution, which is really just the full genetic expression of a species. However, macroevolution has its limits. A moth may be able to change color, but it's still a moth. It will never become something else. Macroevolution, which is what Darwin espoused, is the changing of one kind into another kind. That is something that has never been observed in nature. Thus, it will forever remain a theory.

2. Evolution doesn't explain how life began. In the beginning, there was only inorganic matter. For evolution to be true, organic matter would have to arise from inorganic matter. How does that happen? There is no known mechanism by which that could occur. Evolution is based upon mutations, but for mutations to occur, organic material has to already exist. Do you see the problem? It's like the joke: which came first, the chicken or the egg? We live in a cause-and-effect universe. There has to be cause to start the process to begin with.

3. If everything evolved from simple cell organisms, there would have to be thousands, if not millions, of transitional changes from one kind to the next kind. There should be evidence of this in the form of skeletal remains. However, the fossil record just does not show it. Charles Darwin admitted this was a problem for his theory.

4. Evolution runs contrary to the law of thermodynamics. In the theory of evolution, all living creatures are getting better with time. However, thermodynamics states that entropy always increases. In essence, entropy means everything moves from order to disorder, never the reverse. This is why inorganic objects will wear out and need to be replaced, and organic beings get old and die. Things don't get better with time; they get worse.

This is also true for the human genome. Geneticist Dr. John Sanford, in his book Genetic Entropy, says the human race is currently degenerating at 1-2% per generation due to the accumulation of mutations, and "the extinction of the human genome appears to be just as certain and deterministic as the extinction of stars, the death of organisms, and the heat death of the universe. " Evolution is built upon mutations, but mutations don't generally make things better; they result in handicaps.

5. Evolution does not account for the high degree of uniformity we see in nature. Let's take humans for example. Humans are all anatomically the same. We may have superficial differences—different hair, skin, and eye color, for example—but we all have one head, two arms, two legs, the same organs and appendages, and so on. You may see birth defects, as with conjoined twins, but this is an abnormality. The point is, humans and animals would not evolve the exact same way. We should see many different variations in structure and anatomy, but we don't.

6. Evolution requires many changes over millions of years to organize into complex organisms. But such a long protracted timeframe would actually work against evolution. You see, things like the immune system and blood coagulation would have had to be there from the beginning; otherwise, the organism would die before it had a chance to evolve. Moreover, complex individual systems such as the eyes and ears are interdependent on each other to function. These systems must be complete and functioning as a whole from the beginning; otherwise, they serve no purpose.

7. DNA is analogous to a binary computer code. It contains information that is arranged in different sequences. It is then read by the cells like an instruction manual to build proteins. The question is, where did all that information come from? A computer program requires a programmer, someone outside the system to provide the information. It stands to reason that if DNA acts as code, then it also required an external programmer, or in this case, a creator.

8. This final point ties in with the previous point. For evolution to be true, it would, in essence, have to be driven by a non-sentient intelligence. Something as complex as humans and animals can't just come about by happenstance. Our bodies are symmetrical; each organ performs specific tasks. All the systems of the body are individual parts but also interdependent, all working together in a synergetic way. The point is, no matter how you slice it, there has to be some sort of intelligence behind it. So, what's more logical, that we are here because of a non-sentient intelligence or that we got here by a sentient intelligence? To me, the latter is much more plausible.
 
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marks

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3. If everything evolved from simple cell organisms, there would have to be thousands, if not millions, of transitional changes from one kind to the next kind. There should be evidence of this in the form of skeletal remains. However, the fossil record just does not show it. Charles Darwin admitted this was a problem for his theory.
Darwin likewise asserted that if the "simple cell" were actually more complex then it appeared at that time, his theory would be wrong.

Of course we now know that the "simple cell" has the complexity of a small city.

Much love!
 

The Barbarian

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1. Evolution is a theory that can't be proven using the scientific method.
Nothing is actually proven in science. It's inductive and infers the rules from watching the game. But Darwin's theory has been repeatedly tested and verified.
But with evolution, there's nothing to test. It can't be duplicated in the lab; therefore, it can't be proven.
It's been repeatedly duplicated in the lab. Would you like to see how the evolution of a new enzyme system was observed?
I'm wondering if you've confused biological evolution (change in allele frequencies in a population over time) with common descent, which is a consequence of evolution, not evolution itself.

Evolution doesn't explain how life began.
Right. Suppose God has just poofed the first living things into existence (as Darwin suggested). Evolution would still work exactly as it does now. If the earth had brought forth life, as God says, that works too.
In the beginning, there was only inorganic matter.
No. We know that all sorts of complex organic matter formed abiotically. We find all sorts of things like amino acids in meteorites, some of which don't occur in living things on Earth.

For evolution to be true, organic matter would have to arise from inorganic matter. How does that happen?
Point is, it does. But there's a lot of information about how that happens. Would you like me to link some papers on the subject?
Evolution does not account for the high degree of uniformity we see in nature. Let's take humans for example. Humans are all anatomically the same. We may have superficial differences—different hair, skin, and eye color, for example—but we all have one head, two arms, two legs, the same organs and appendages, and so on.
That's what you see in evolution. We are, after all, vertebrates. So we see the same basic vertebrate plan in humans. It is one of the most difficult things for creationists to explain. Why would we have the same bones in our arms as whales have in their flippers? Because all tetrapod vertebrates have a common ancestor. What is an incomprehensible problem for creationism is a prediction of evolutionary theory.

If everything evolved from simple cell organisms, there would have to be thousands, if not millions, of transitional changes from one kind to the next kind. There should be evidence of this in the form of skeletal remains. However, the fossil record just does not show it.
Well, let's ask a knowledgeable YE creationist about that...

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation — of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.
YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

Moreover, complex individual systems such as the eyes and ears are interdependent on each other to function.
Well, that's a testable belief, too. What transitional form between a patch of skin and a complex eye do you think is impossible? Here's some evidence from mollusks:

1778705044539.png
 
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The Barbarian

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Evolution runs contrary to the law of thermodynamics.
Testable also. Name me one process that's necessary for evolution that is prohibited by any of the laws of thermodynamics (there are several of them)

However, thermodynamics states that entropy always increases.
So how is it that entropy decreases everywhere we look on Earth? Hint: look up "open system" and "closed system."

Evolution requires many changes over millions of years to organize into complex organisms. But such a long protracted timeframe would actually work against evolution. You see, things like the immune system and blood coagulation would have had to be there from the beginning;
But even today, there are animals without complex blood coagulation and immune systems. In fact, the evidence for the evolution of such systems is compelling. Would you like me to show you some of it?

DNA is analogous to a binary computer code.
No. The language of DNA is digital, but not binary. Where binary encoding has 0 and 1 to work with (2 - hence the 'bi'nary), DNA has 4 positions, T, C, G and A. Whereas a digital byte is mostly 8 binary digits, a DNA 'byte' (called a 'codon') has three digits.

The question is, where did all that information come from?
Information theory shows how genetic information increases in a population of living things. Would you like me to show you a simple example of how that happens?

This final point ties in with the previous point. For evolution to be true, it would, in essence, have to be driven by a non-sentient intelligence.
For a Christian, every particle of the universe is overseen by God. So that's not a problem for us. Evolution is just more efficient than design for very complex problems. Engineers are starting to copy God's methods to solve such problems. They are called "genetic algorithms." God, as usual, knows best.

Of course the universe was created by a sentient being. The issue is that He's a lot smarter than creationists are comfortable with.
 

The Barbarian

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Darwin likewise asserted that if the "simple cell" were actually more complex then it appeared at that time, his theory would be wrong.
Show us that. I think you've been misled there. But let's see what you've got.

Of course we now know that the "simple cell" has the complexity of a small city.
Show us the numbers for that. Sounds rather unlikely, since cities contain thousands of living things, each of which is more complex than a cell. But let's make it easy. Calculate the complexity of a small city, and compare it to the calculations for a bacterial cell. Show your work.

Just the electrical system of a small city would dwarf the complexity of an E. coli cell.
 

marks

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Nothing is actually proven in science. It's inductive and infers the rules from watching the game. But Darwin's theory has been repeatedly tested and verified.

It's been repeatedly duplicated in the lab. Would you like to see how the evolution of a new enzyme system was observed?
I'm wondering if you've confused biological evolution (change in allele frequencies in a population over time) with common descent, which is a consequence of evolution, not evolution itself.


Right. Suppose God has just poofed the first living things into existence (as Darwin suggested). Evolution would still work exactly as it does now. If the earth had brought forth life, as God says, that works too.

No. We know that all sorts of complex organic matter formed abiotically. We find all sorts of things like amino acids in meteorites, some of which don't occur in living things on Earth.


Point is, it does. But there's a lot of information about how that happens. Would you like me to link some papers on the subject?

That's what you see in evolution. We are, after all, vertebrates. So we see the same basic vertebrate plan in humans. It is one of the most difficult things for creationists to explain. Why would we have the same bones in our arms as whales have in their flippers? Because all tetrapod vertebrates have a common ancestor. What is an incomprehensible problem for creationism is a prediction of evolutionary theory.


Well, let's ask a knowledgeable YE creationist about that...

Evidences for Darwin’s second expectation — of stratomorphic intermediate species — include such species as Baragwanathia27 (between rhyniophytes and lycopods), Pikaia28 (between echinoderms and chordates), Purgatorius29 (between the tree shrews and the primates), and Proconsul30 (between the non-hominoid primates and the hominoids). Darwin’s third expectation — of higher-taxon stratomorphic intermediates — has been confirmed by such examples as the mammal-like reptile groups31 between the reptiles and the mammals, and the phenacodontids32 between the horses and their presumed ancestors. Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.
YE creationist Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms


Well, that's a testable belief, too. What transitional form between a patch of skin and a complex eye do you think is impossible? Here's some evidence from mollusks:

View attachment 84060
You've adopted irreducible complexity in these examples without a blink.

Even the "photoreceptor/nerve" combination . . . neither would simply form on it's own, and neither has any use without the other.

Why would a skin cell suddenly become photoreceptive? Do you realize the totally different properties involved? And what would be the use without a nerve, and an optical center to interpret the data? There is a lot more to this than just a mutational "dark colored skin cell" that repeats itself generation after generation until that spot somehow "becomes" photoreceptive", meanwhile a nerve to nowhere is forming? And an optical center in the ganglia getting ready for input?

Do you truly not find this beyond belief?

This is one of the simplest examples of irreducible complexity, if you cannot treat this fully, what will you do with with the flagellum, a 3 part ion motor?

Much love!
 

marks

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Show us that. I think you've been misled there. But let's see what you've got.


Show us the numbers for that. Sounds rather unlikely, since cities contain thousands of living things, each of which is more complex than a cell. But let's make it easy. Calculate the complexity of a small city, and compare it to the calculations for a bacterial cell. Show your work.

Just the electrical system of a small city would dwarf the complexity of an E. coli cell.
I would need to find the quote, something tells me it may not be fruitful time spent, as you seem to be convinced.

You can google the latest electron microscopy to see some of the cell images, you can judge for yourself.

Rhetoric aside, I personally find this whole irreducible complexity to be extremely compelling evidence. Not to mention the inability to find any example of actual species change. Or a "lucky monster".

Living beings on this planet are fashioned according information contained in DNA, which determines the form and function. Information does not write itself. The information is not the form and the function, it's a blueprint, from which cells in the zygote begin to differentiate according to this information.

You have a chicken and egg problem. If the egg comes first, from where comes the information? If the chicken comes first, how is it organized according to it's information?

This applies to your very first simple cell. The assemblers have to be assembled. The chicken came first, being created according to God's design, with that design encoded in it's body for the purpose of accurate reproduction.

Much love!
 

The Barbarian

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I would need to find the quote, something tells me it may not be fruitful time spent, as you seem to be convinced.
No evidence that I can find.
You can google the latest electron microscopy to see some of the cell images, you can judge for yourself.
Looks much less complex than a city to me. Consider all the systems working therein. All the mechanisms, the social structure, the businesses, logistics systems, etc. I notice that when I ask for numbers (complexity is a numerical quantity) no one can even do an estimate.

Rhetoric aside, I personally find this whole irreducible complexity to be extremely compelling evidence.
In fact, the evolution of irreducibly complex features has been directly observed. Consider Dr. Behe's definition; already been seen to happen.

Not to mention the inability to find any example of actual species change.
Even many YE creationists now admit the evolution of new species:
As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time...Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.
Speciation

Living beings on this planet are fashioned according information contained in DNA, which determines the form and function. Information does not write itself.
Every new mutation in a population increases information. Would you like to see the numbers for a simple case?

This applies to your very first simple cell.
Which is why Darwin suggested that God just created the first living things. Evolutionary theory isn't about the origin of life. But there is a very good clue in the fact that the one organelle that is absolutely essential for cellular life is the simplest and forms vacuoles spontaneously from simpler molecules.
 

The Barbarian

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You've adopted irreducible complexity in these examples without a blink.
In Dr. Hall's example, a new enzyme evolved in a series of mutations. But it also evolved a regulator, so that the enzyme is not produced if the substance it acts upon is not present. So now, we have a three-part irreducibly complex system, wherein if one of the substances is not present, the system will not work. Which is Dr. Hall's definition of irreducibly complexity.

Even the "photoreceptor/nerve" combination . . . neither would simply form on it's own, and neither has any use without the other.

Why would a skin cell suddenly become photoreceptive?
All skin cells are photoreceptive. If you walk from shade into direct summer sun, your skin will respond to the light. If the spot becomes dark, it will be more sensitive. And some pigments are more sensitive than others.

There is a lot more to this than just a mutational "dark colored skin cell" that repeats itself generation after generation until that spot somehow "becomes" photoreceptive", meanwhile a nerve to nowhere is forming?
How do you feel sunlight on your skin? Nerves are already there.
And an optical center in the ganglia getting ready for input?
"Optical would require a lens or at least a pinhole aperture. As you see in mollusks, those are later steps from earlier ones. The key is, all of the steps necessary for a complex eye to form, still exist in living mollusks.
 

Armour of God

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How did we get here? There are really only two possibilities. Either we were created, or we evolved. That's it. There is no third possibility (at least none with any credibility). So, let's focus on a few of the problems of evolution. This is far from an exhaustive list; it is merely eight reasons why I don't believe evolution is a viable option for any reason.

1. Evolution is a theory that can't be proven using the scientific method. In the scientific method, you form your hypothesis and then test it with experiments to determine if it's true or not. But with evolution, there's nothing to test. It can't be duplicated in the lab; therefore, it can't be proven. That also highlights a big problem for evolution. If life was so simple to start by happenstance, we should be able to add a few crucial ingredients and create life in the lab, but that hasn't been the case.

Some people will point to evidence of a moth changing colors or insects becoming immune to pesticides as evidence of evolution. This is something called microevolution, which is really just the full genetic expression of a species. However, macroevolution has its limits. A moth may be able to change color, but it's still a moth. It will never become something else. Macroevolution, which is what Darwin espoused, is the changing of one kind into another kind. That is something that has never been observed in nature. Thus, it will forever remain a theory.

2. Evolution doesn't explain how life began. In the beginning, there was only inorganic matter. For evolution to be true, organic matter would have to arise from inorganic matter. How does that happen? There is no known mechanism by which that could occur. Evolution is based upon mutations, but for mutations to occur, organic material has to already exist. Do you see the problem? It's like the joke: which came first, the chicken or the egg? We live in a cause-and-effect universe. There has to be cause to start the process to begin with.

3. If everything evolved from simple cell organisms, there would have to be thousands, if not millions, of transitional changes from one kind to the next kind. There should be evidence of this in the form of skeletal remains. However, the fossil record just does not show it. Charles Darwin admitted this was a problem for his theory.

4. Evolution runs contrary to the law of thermodynamics. In the theory of evolution, all living creatures are getting better with time. However, thermodynamics states that entropy always increases. In essence, entropy means everything moves from order to disorder, never the reverse. This is why inorganic objects will wear out and need to be replaced, and organic beings get old and die. Things don't get better with time; they get worse.

This is also true for the human genome. Geneticist Dr. John Sanford, in his book Genetic Entropy, says the human race is currently degenerating at 1-2% per generation due to the accumulation of mutations, and "the extinction of the human genome appears to be just as certain and deterministic as the extinction of stars, the death of organisms, and the heat death of the universe. " Evolution is built upon mutations, but mutations don't generally make things better; they result in handicaps.

5. Evolution does not account for the high degree of uniformity we see in nature. Let's take humans for example. Humans are all anatomically the same. We may have superficial differences—different hair, skin, and eye color, for example—but we all have one head, two arms, two legs, the same organs and appendages, and so on. You may see birth defects, as with conjoined twins, but this is an abnormality. The point is, humans and animals would not evolve the exact same way. We should see many different variations in structure and anatomy, but we don't.

6. Evolution requires many changes over millions of years to organize into complex organisms. But such a long protracted timeframe would actually work against evolution. You see, things like the immune system and blood coagulation would have had to be there from the beginning; otherwise, the organism would die before it had a chance to evolve. Moreover, complex individual systems such as the eyes and ears are interdependent on each other to function. These systems must be complete and functioning as a whole from the beginning; otherwise, they serve no purpose.

7. DNA is analogous to a binary computer code. It contains information that is arranged in different sequences. It is then read by the cells like an instruction manual to build proteins. The question is, where did all that information come from? A computer program requires a programmer, someone outside the system to provide the information. It stands to reason that if DNA acts as code, then it also required an external programmer, or in this case, a creator.

8. This final point ties in with the previous point. For evolution to be true, it would, in essence, have to be driven by a non-sentient intelligence. Something as complex as humans and animals can't just come about by happenstance. Our bodies are symmetrical; each organ performs specific tasks. All the systems of the body are individual parts but also interdependent, all working together in a synergetic way. The point is, no matter how you slice it, there has to be some sort of intelligence behind it. So, what's more logical, that we are here because of a non-sentient intelligence or that we got here by a sentient intelligence? To me, the latter is much more plausible.

Excellent explanation my friend.
There is even more one could mention but you summed it up very well in 8 short points.

I did mechanical engineering at university so I know what science should be.
At that time I didn't believe in God and believed science had the answer to everything, I believed the theory of evolution.

But when I looked into it more I found that it was flawed. Its not real science that is observable or testable. Its more like a philosophy. A bunch of assumptions put together by atheists eager to disprove God.

The horrible thing is that they teach this rubbish to kids, as if it's a fact, when it's not. It pulls people away from God and replaces it with this nonsensical explanation of life that has no foundation, just built on assumptions.

Thanks for your explanation and
God bless
 

Armour of God

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Darwin likewise asserted that if the "simple cell" were actually more complex then it appeared at that time, his theory would be wrong.

Of course we now know that the "simple cell" has the complexity of a small city.

Much love!

The more they study the simple cell the more complexion they find making it even more unlikely that life evolved from it.

They have genetic engineering now. Millions of dollars being spent into trying to prove that a new species can come from another species. They have not been able to show that.
 

The Barbarian

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But when I looked into it more I found that it was flawed. Its not real science that is observable or testable.
Well, that's a testable assumption. Which of the four points of Darwin's theory have not been tested and verified? Be specific.
Its more like a philosophy. A bunch of assumptions put together by atheists eager to disprove God.
That would be rather weird, seeing as Darwin suggested that God created the first living things.

"People are usually down on things they aren't up on."
Everette Dirkson
 

The Barbarian

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The more they study the simple cell the more complexion they find making it even more unlikely that life evolved from it.
Actually, evolutionary theory assumes that life began, and describes how it changes over time. And it doesn't matter how life began. If it was naturally, as God says, or if it was poofed, evolution would still work the way we see it happen.
They have genetic engineering now. Millions of dollars being spent into trying to prove that a new species can come from another species. They have not been able to show that.
Let's ask YE creationists about that...

As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time...Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.

The rapid origin of new species (in thousands of years or less) is not speculation but demonstrated fact,
YE creationist John Woodmorappe Noah's Ark; a Feasibility Study
 
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marks

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As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time...Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.
Actually the Bible tells us God ordained that everything reproduce according to it's own kind.

I've seen what I need in our discussion, there will be no fruitfulness in continuing.

Perhaps you don't understand the implications of irreducible complexity. Can you can tell me how a mutated spot continues to the next generation to then find a mutated nerve, and the next generation finds a mutated ganglia, and these all connect to give rudimentary sight?

Can you tell me how the flagellum exists as a three part ion motor? That's quite the complex mutation to suddenly appear on a single cell creature.

It's not just the eye, of the flagellum, there are countless examples of irreducible complexity. It's not just a lucky monster you imagine, it's so lucky it would own Vegas in an hour.

Evolution is NOT science, it's not a theory. It's not observable, it does not explain observations, it cannot be tested, it cannot be repeated.

Much love!
 

marks

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The more they study the simple cell the more complexion they find making it even more unlikely that life evolved from it.

They have genetic engineering now. Millions of dollars being spent into trying to prove that a new species can come from another species. They have not been able to show that.
And the more that we learn, the more scientists are coming to Christ.

Even with our help in the lab there is still no evolution observed.

Much love!
 

amigo de christo

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You've adopted irreducible complexity in these examples without a blink.

Even the "photoreceptor/nerve" combination . . . neither would simply form on it's own, and neither has any use without the other.

Why would a skin cell suddenly become photoreceptive? Do you realize the totally different properties involved? And what would be the use without a nerve, and an optical center to interpret the data? There is a lot more to this than just a mutational "dark colored skin cell" that repeats itself generation after generation until that spot somehow "becomes" photoreceptive", meanwhile a nerve to nowhere is forming? And an optical center in the ganglia getting ready for input?

Do you truly not find this beyond belief?

This is one of the simplest examples of irreducible complexity, if you cannot treat this fully, what will you do with with the flagellum, a 3 part ion motor?

Much love!
W hich came first the chicken or the egg .
WHY the chicken did of course . CAUSE THE BIBLE , in it its written THAT GOD formed the beasts and animals and etc .
IN OTHER WORDS . ITS TIME we as mere wee children SIMPLY BELEIVE what is written .
The minds of men are carnal but the words of GOD be spiritual .
The words of men are capable of truths with error , BUT THE WORDS OF GOD , OF TRUTH ALONE .
Folks find things in the bible HARD to BELIEVE because their minds are carnally led .
But for this sheep , and that BY GRACE , THERE IS NOT HING too hard for GOD .
Was the earth created in six days . YES IT WAS . and the evening and the morning were THE FIRST DAY .
LOOK around . LOOK at every s tar in the sky to every planet with perfect rotation
To every thing created . GOD SIM PLY SPOKE and it was .
SO it sure aint too difficult for GOD to prepare a fish to swallow a man .
ITS not too difficult with GOD to have a wall of jericho fall FLAT DOWN after being compassed by t hose with faith
FOR sev en days .
ITS NOT to difficult for GOD to have a ninety year old woman concieve and give birth .
IN OTHER WORDS if it be WRITTEN IN THE BiblE . THIS SHEEP SIMPLY BELIEVES IT , FOR I BELIEVE GOD and not man .
JESUS said LEST YE bECOME as children ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven .
NEVER once did he say lEST ye become wise scholars , wise in science , wise in carnal knowledge .......
NoPE . FOR THE WISDOM OF This world BE UTTER FOOLISHNESS with GOD . AND BELIEVE ME
HE darn sure has made FOOLISH the WISDOM OF THIS WORLD. I say BIBLE TIME .
 
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Armour of God

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Actually, evolutionary theory assumes that life began, and describes how it changes over time. And it doesn't matter how life began. If it was naturally, as God says, or if it was poofed, evolution would still work the way we see it happen.

Let's ask YE creationists about that...

As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time...Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.

The rapid origin of new species (in thousands of years or less) is not speculation but demonstrated fact,
YE creationist John Woodmorappe Noah's Ark; a Feasibility Study

We've been through this.
I'm not a YE creationist so those quotes mean nothing to me.
And I've already refuted all your arguments on another thread.
 

The Barbarian

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You've adopted irreducible complexity in these examples without a blink.
Perhaps you don't know what "irreducible complexity" is. What do you think it is?

Even the "photoreceptor/nerve" combination . . . neither would simply form on it's own, and neither has any use without the other.
That connection exists in your skin. It is, as you learned, already photosensitive. Eyes just evolved from there.
Why would a skin cell suddenly become photoreceptive?
Yours, for example, are. If, on a hot day, you walk out from shade to direct sunlight, your skin detects the sunlight.

Do you realize the totally different properties involved?
Yep. And you're starting to get it. The receptors and nerves are already there; there is a place in the brain where the sunlight is recognized, with nerves from your skin to the brain. So, as you see in mollusks, only incremental changes are required; a mere dark spot is sufficient to be useful.

This is one of the simplest examples of irreducible complexity, if you cannot treat this fully, what will you do with with the flagellum, a 3 part ion motor?
Turns out, there are different kinds of bacterial flagellum each more or less complex than the others.

Stepwise formation of the bacterial flagellar system

PNAS April 24, 2007 104 (17) 7116-7121
Elucidating the origins of complex biological structures has been one of the major challenges of evolutionary studies. The bacterial flagellum is a primary example of a complex apparatus whose origins and evolutionary history have proven difficult to reconstruct. The gene clusters encoding the components of the flagellum can include >50 genes, but these clusters vary greatly in their numbers and contents among bacterial phyla. To investigate how this diversity arose, we identified all homologs of all flagellar proteins encoded in the complete genome sequences of 41 flagellated species from 11 bacterial phyla. Based on the phylogenetic occurrence and histories of each of these proteins, we could distinguish an ancient core set of 24 structural genes that were present in the common ancestor to all Bacteria. Within a genome, many of these core genes show sequence similarity only to other flagellar core genes, indicating that they were derived from one another, and the relationships among these genes suggest the probable order in which the structural components of the bacterial flagellum arose. These results show that core components of the bacterial flagellum originated through the successive duplication and modification of a few, or perhaps even a single, precursor gene.

We've been through this.
I'm not a YE creationist so those quotes mean nothing to me.
And I've already refuted all your arguments on another thread.
But you can't show even one of them? Why is that?
 

The Barbarian

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Actually the Bible tells us God ordained that everything reproduce according to it's own kind.
No, that's not what it says. Maybe you should go back and take another look.
I've seen what I need in our discussion, there will be no fruitfulness in continuing.
Not if you keep recycling failed arguments against God's creation.
Perhaps you don't understand the implications of irreducible complexity.
It's really simple:
"... a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning"
Michael Behe
Can you can tell me how a mutated spot continues to the next generation to then find a mutated nerve,
It already has nerves. That's how a spot on your skin can detect light.

and the next generation finds a mutated ganglia, and these all connect to give rudimentary sight?
The ganglia are already there.
Can you tell me how the flagellum exists as a three part ion motor? That's quite the complex mutation to suddenly appear on a single cell creature.
There isn't an organelle as "the bacterial flagellum." There are quite a number of them, each one more or less complex than the others. See the definition of irreducibly complexity above. By definition, none of these are irreducibly complex.

It's not just the eye, of the flagellum, there are countless examples of irreducible complexity. It's not just a lucky monster you imagine,
Darwin's great discovery was that luck has nothing to with it.
Evolution is NOT science,
Evolution is a natural phenomenon. Evolutionary theory is a scientific theory because it makes a number of predictions that have been subsequently verified. Learn about it here:
A **science theory** is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, backed by extensive evidence and testing.
it's not a theory.
See above. Can you name me even one of Darwin's four points of evolutionary theory that have not been tested and confirmed?

It's not observable,
We see it happening constantly around us. Perhaps you don't know what biological evolution is. What do you think it is?

it does not explain observations,
It does that very well. Even knowledgeable YE creationists admit that it does:

Evolution is not a theory in crisis. It is not teetering on the verge of collapse. It has not failed as a scientific explanation. There is evidence for evolution, gobs and gobs of it. It is not just speculation or a faith choice or an assumption or a religion. It is a productive framework for lots of biological research, and it has amazing explanatory power. There is no conspiracy to hide the truth about the failure of evolution. There has really been no failure of evolution as a scientific theory. It works, and it works well.

I say these things not because I'm crazy or because I've "converted" to evolution. I say these things because they are true. I'm motivated this morning by reading yet another clueless, well-meaning person pompously declaring that evolution is a failure. People who say that are either unacquainted with the inner workings of science or unacquainted with the evidence for evolution...

Creationist students, listen to me very carefully: There is evidence for evolution, and evolution is an extremely successful scientific theory. That doesn't make it ultimately true, and it doesn't mean that there could not possibly be viable alternatives. It is my own faith choice to reject evolution, because I believe the Bible reveals true information about the history of the earth that is fundamentally incompatible with evolution. I am motivated to understand God's creation from what I believe to be a biblical, creationist perspective. Evolution itself is not flawed or without evidence. Please don't be duped into thinking that somehow evolution itself is a failure.

YE creationist Dr. Todd Wood, The Truth About Evolution
it cannot be tested, it cannot be repeated.
Undergraduates test it every year. Would you like to learn some of the ways they test it?