Age-during vs Eternal

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lukethreesix

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Jan 11, 2014
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You only speak of half of the definition of eternal. You refuse to admit that in order to be eternal one did not have a beginning. Eternal does not only mean, without end. It also means without beginning. If you had a beginning, then you cannot be eternal.

Please answer this question: Jesus says that He is the FIRST. Why? Because existed BEFORE anything else. He also says He is the LAST. Why? Because He will exist AFTER anything else.
If we last as long as Jesus last then how can He be last?
 

Madad21

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lukethreesix said:
You only speak of half of the definition of eternal. You refuse to admit that in order to be eternal one did not have a beginning. Eternal does not only mean, without end. It also means without beginning. If you had a beginning, then you cannot be eternal.

Please answer this question: Jesus says that He is the FIRST. Why? Because existed BEFORE anything else. He also says He is the LAST. Why? Because He will exist AFTER anything else.
If we last as long as Jesus last then how can He be last?
LOL!! I just refuse do I, I just refuse to admit that sinister secret. your such a silly billy buddy :p

DONE!! :D
Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

That breath in us comes from an Eternal being who is without a beginning and without an end, thus the eternal soul...

First and Last?
Isaiah 43:10
You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.

There you go not so sinister after all, just ask, Im cool B)

You have a good day man, im gonna go search the inside of my eyelids for holes.
 

lukethreesix

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Jan 11, 2014
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I will get to verse 17+18 later....thanks for being so patient with me. I'm so friggin busy!

I think you nailed it when you said "conclusion". Full circle. Done. Finished. Fulfilled. Completed. Satisfied. Oneness.


How does Isaiah 43:10, show we are last and Jesus is last too?
Did you watch the video?

Ps 82, And Jesus quotes it the Gospel of John, says we are gods. Isaiah 43 proves my point better than yours. "No god came BEFORE Him and no god will come AFTER Him. "
I hate to burst your bubble, but GOD WILL OUT LAST US. He is God, Creation is not eternal, it/we did not always exist. HE did and always will. We are not Gods equal.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Mar 8, 2011
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Nothing to contribute .... just some thoughts

God is truly "eternal" in the purest sense of the word .... no beginning and no end ... He simply " IS "

Now jump ahead to Adam ... I think he had "eternal life" starting the moment he was created .... providing he did not eat from the wrong tree .... then he would die (no more eternal life)

Jump ahead to we Christians ... Jesus has given us "eternal life" through him once we die and are resurrected.

Christians ( like me) always used the word "eternal" in the same context for both God and man .... but obviously that cannot be right.

The eternal life we will have may go on forever and ever .... but it obviously had a beginning .

I am finding this topic a bit of an eye opener and look forward to how it sorts out .

Quite frankly I had never heard of the words "age-abiding" until now

Thank you.
 

Madad21

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Dec 28, 2013
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Arnie Manitoba said:
Nothing to contribute .... just some thoughts

God is truly "eternal" in the purest sense of the word .... no beginning and no end ... He simply " IS "

Now jump ahead to Adam ... I think he had "eternal life" starting the moment he was created .... providing he did not eat from the wrong tree .... then he would die (no more eternal life)

Jump ahead to we Christians ... Jesus has given us "eternal life" through him once we die and are resurrected.

Christians ( like me) always used the word "eternal" in the same context for both God and man .... but obviously that cannot be right.

The eternal life we will have may go on forever and ever .... but it obviously had a beginning .

I am finding this topic a bit of an eye opener and look forward to how it sorts out .

Quite frankly I had never heard of the words "age-abiding" until now

Thank you.
Your absolutely right with what you know, your not missing anything dont worry.
lukethreesix said:
I will get to verse 17+18 later....thanks for being so patient with me. I'm so friggin busy!

I think you nailed it when you said "conclusion". Full circle. Done. Finished. Fulfilled. Completed. Satisfied. Oneness.


How does Isaiah 43:10, show we are last and Jesus is last too?
Did you watch the video?

Ps 82, And Jesus quotes it the Gospel of John, says we are gods. Isaiah 43 proves my point better than yours. "No god came BEFORE Him and no god will come AFTER Him. "
I hate to burst your bubble, but GOD WILL OUT LAST US. He is God, Creation is not eternal, it/we did not always exist. HE did and always will. We are not Gods equal.
Here we go again with the bubble I apparently live in.
Silly me thinking that only believing in Christ brings salvation like the Bible says, Im so blind in my bubble :huh:

Dude, are there going to be other gods after Christ? because thats what hes talking about, but if you want to twist it that I somehow think Im going to out last God then fine, whatever

Equality with God, NO!! - But he is our Father and he gives us eternal life and the right to be called his children,
Lukethreesix are the promises you make to your children temporary?
Luke 11:13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
2 Corinthians 6:18 And I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty
John 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
Theres way more where those came from, its called the word of God.

​Do you believe in these ETERNAL promises? it doesnt sound like it but yet you believe that His eternal promise applies to all people no matter what they believe or who they worship and thats dangerous.
 

logabe

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Nothing to contribute .... just some thoughts

God is truly "eternal" in the purest sense of the word .... no beginning and no end ... He simply " IS "

Now jump ahead to Adam ... I think he had "eternal life" starting the moment he was created .... providing he did not eat from the wrong tree .... then he would die (no more eternal life)

Jump ahead to we Christians ... Jesus has given us "eternal life" through him once we die and are resurrected.

Christians ( like me) always used the word "eternal" in the same context for both God and man .... but obviously that cannot be right.

The eternal life we will have may go on forever and ever .... but it obviously had a beginning .

I am finding this topic a bit of an eye opener and look forward to how it sorts out .

Quite frankly I had never heard of the words "age-abiding" until now

Thank you.
Arnie... in 1997 God gave me the word Aion to study so He could reveal His Plan in me. It is
impossible to understand the plan of God without some level of knowledge pertaining to the
Ages.

Most Christians are taught it is over after this Grace Age and if you haven't accepted Jesus
Christ before your last breath in this Age... you are doomed!!! Zec. 12:10 says,

10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants
of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they
will look on Me whom they have pierced ; and they will mourn for
Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly
over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

Obviously, the prophet is talking about the Jews that shouted crucify him when they were
ask by the governor, what evil has he done? My question is... how could Jesus shed the
Spirit of Grace and supplication upon a people that actually were the ones who pierced him?

Talk about unbelievers shall have their part in the Lake of Fire, I think these individuals surely
quality as unbelievers, but yet God will have mercy on them in the future Ages to come. The
prophet obviously says, in the future, these Jews will mourn and bitterly weep when they see
the error of their past. What a wonderful scripture!!!

My point is, they died as unbelievers but it sounds like God is not finished with them. If we can
understand that God isn't finished with any of His Creation, but He has a Plan for the Ages that
will undo everything that the 1st Adam caused, then we can begin to see the magnitude of Jesus
"the Last Adam", where he will restore everything that the 1st Adam lost (Acts 3:21).

Let's not forget the purpose of age abiding life. What is the purpose? The purpose of the Ages is
to bring everything that came out of God back into God. In other words, God created time to
implement His Plan of bringing the universe back into harmony with Him. When this is completed
we will not need time anymore, because when God get's through with pouring out His Grace, then
we will have no need for time. Everyone will be perfect and therefore in eternity where there is no
need for change.

At the present we do need time, because there are many rebellious people that haven't accepted
the blood of Jesus Christ. But in the Ages to come... God will put all enemies under the feet of Jesus
(1st Cor. 15:28), and all will bow their knees in submission to Jesus Christ (Philippians 2:10-11). All
will eventually accept the Lord Jesus Christ, but all will not do it in this Age. It will be every man in
his own order as Paul says in (1st Cor. 15:23).

Thank God for age abiding life and age abiding judgment!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 
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lukethreesix

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​Mad, you said "Do you believe in these ETERNAL promises? it doesnt sound like it but yet you believe that His eternal promise applies to all people no matter what they believe or who they worship and thats dangerous."

Come on man, you know I've never said any such thing. Ofcoarse I believe in the promises of God, and its true that no one can be saved out side of Christ. Christ IS every one's Savior, that is a biblical fact!
 

Madad21

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logabe said:
At the present we do need time, because there are many rebellious people that haven't accepted
the blood of Jesus Christ. But in the Ages to come... God will put all enemies under the feet of Jesus
(1st Cor. 15:28), and all will bow their knees in submission to Jesus Christ (Philippians 2:10-11). All
will eventually accept the Lord Jesus Christ, but all will not do it in this Age. It will be every man in
his own order as Paul says in (1st Cor. 15:23).

Thank God for age abiding life and age abiding judgment!!!

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Lets start with
1 Corinthians 15:23
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ is the first fruits, others had been raised before him, but though they were raised they would only die again later.
Christ was the first to be raised in to life with a glorified body.
And then all those who belong to him.

Who are those who belong to him according to Pauls teaching?

Well if we look at the start the chapter Pauls tells us straight away

1 Corinthians 15
15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

What does Paul say concerning Christ being risen from the dead?

12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

Now Paul speaks hypothetically here obviously.

But there are so many around the world who have refused to believe in the resurrection of Christ, so if what Paul is saying hypothetically here is a true analogy for faith, then that must mean those who deny Christ are Lost for they die in their sins.

So according to Paul who are those who belong to him? ...Those who believe in the Gospel
And what is the Gospel?..... Christ's Death, burial and resurrection.

Is it wise to read and understand a whole chapter before posting random verses.....yes

logabe said:
Talk about unbelievers shall have their part in the Lake of Fire, I think these individuals surely
quality as unbelievers, but yet God will have mercy on them in the future Ages to come.
Psalm 145:20

The Lord preserves all who love him, but all the wicked he will destroy

Revelation 20:10,14-15

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire

And just incase you say "day and night for ever and ever." doesn't mean forever

Matthew 10:18 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

Whats the opposite of eternal life, because the gift of God here isn't "age-abiding" life.

lukethreesix said:
Come on man, you know I've never said any such thing. Ofcoarse I believe in the promises of God, and its true that no one can be saved out side of Christ. Christ IS every one's Savior, that is a biblical fact!
Really?
Dont you believe that even those who have died in their sin will eventually have salvation?

Regardless of what the Bible teaches about those who reject Christ?

Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14)

"And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea,it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Madad21.

Madad21 said:
2 Corinthians 4:18 in the Youngs Literal Translation reads
"we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during".

But in most other versions it reads;

"While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal".

The words; Eternal, Age during and Age-abiding in the New Testament come from the same Greek root word "Aiōnios"

There is a popular understanding amongst some that the greek "aionios" is not so much to do
with the translation of aionios as ‘age–abiding’ or ‘age-during’, but the insistence
that ‘age-abiding’ means that which is strictly limited or temporary.

But what upsets the applecart is Paul's use of "aionios" in the above scripture, which seems to clearly point to the word aionios meaning eternal in direct contrast to what he says are things seen and temporary. He uses "aionios" to describe things not seen and eternal.

This brings in to question the common use of this word "aionios" throughout the NT.

​Is it eternal or temporary
What supports "aionios" as Temporary and what for Eternal?
Is it meant to be eternal in some places but temporary in others?
Is the PS4 really better the the PS3?
Are Penny and Leonard going to get married?
and why is that man staring at me?

Questions, so many questions.
The first thing one must realize is that the Bible was not written in English, nor was it written in any Western culture. Obviously, right? However, we FORGET along the way in our studies these basic truths. One of the most difficult things to do when studying the Bible is REMEMBERING what you studied and the conclusions that you drew when you come to a new study! Thus, our REAL problem, being human beings, is keeping up the CONTINUITY, particularly if we find that we must change our mind about something!

Let's remember that the Tanakh (the Old Testament) was originally written in Hebrew with a few later portions written in Aramaic (the language of Syria or Aram as a go-between, translation language, particularly when Y'hudah [Judah] was in captivity to Babylon and Persia.) The B'rit Chadashah (the New Testament), too, was most likely written originally in at least Aramaic (if not Hebrew). Only later was it translated into Greek, and the Greek copies are all we have (with a few exceptions) now. This has been proven by the Hebraisms in the Greek text and the Hebrew grammar techniques, Hebrew idioms, and Hebrew mannerisms employed in the text, although written with the Greek words. Even the poetry found in the B'rit Chadashah is patterned after Hebrew poetry.

Therefore, when "digging deeper" into the Scriptures, in either portion of the Word of God, one would be wise to leave the English out of it until the VERY END of the study, as much as is humanly possible.

That said, I know, I know, that's practically impossible to do, particularly if we only speak the one language and we understand thoughts in English, right? However, it emphasizes how much we are dependent upon study of the ORIGINAL LANGUAGES (even though we don't have the original manuscripts).

Now to answer the objection before it's voiced, yes, we ARE to be led by the Spirit in our studies; however, He uses what He has to work with! If we aren't studying God's Word - putting what we read into our minds - DAILY, then we're not doing OUR part in giving Him the best we have!

The Greek word "aioon" is used 125 times in the B'rit Chadashah. It's adjectival form, "aioonios," is used 72 times. And, the word from which "aioon" is thought to come, "aei," is used 12 times. (I use a transliteration scheme such that a = alpha, e = epsilon, i = iota, k = kappa, n = nu, o = omicron, r = rho, s = sigma, ch = chi, and oo = omega.)

Here are the Strong's definitions:

NT:104 aei (ah-eye'); from an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); "ever," by qualification regularly; by implication, earnestly;
KJV - always, ever.

NT:165 aioon (ahee-ohn'); from the same as NT:104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):
KJV - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-] ever, (beginning of the while the) world (began, without end). Compare NT:5550.

NT:166 aioonios (ahee-o'-nee-os); from NT:165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):
KJV - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

The definition for aioon also suggests to "Compare NT:5550." So, here are two more words:

NT:5550 chronos (khron'-os); of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in general, and thus properly distinguished from NT:2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from NT:165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension, an individual opportunity; by implication, delay:
KJV - years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.

NT:2540 kairos (kahee-ros'); of uncertain affinity; an occasion, i.e. set or proper time:
KJV - always, opportunity, (convenient, due) season, (due, short, while) time, a while. Compare NT:5550.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So, to summarize Strong's,
chronos = a space of time or an interval, an individual opportunity, or a delay
kairos = an occasion, a set time, a proper time, a fixed occasion, or a special occasion
aioon = an age, perpetuity, the world, or a Messianic period
aioonios = perpetual
aei = ever, regularly, earnestly

However, these definitions are only half the battle. HOW these words are used and with WHAT other words they are used is the other half - the LION'S SHARE - of the battle! To find this information, there is no substitute for looking up each occurrence of each word in its Greek context. So,...

The Greek word aioon is found in Matthew 6:13; 12:32; 13:22, 39, 40, 59; 21:19; 24:3; 28:20; Mark 3:29; 4:19; 10:30; 11:14; Luke 1:33, 55, 70; 16:8; 18:30; 20:34, 35; John 4:14; 6:51, 58; 8:35 (2x), 51, 52; 9:32; 10:28; 11:26; 12:34; 13:8; 14:16; Acts 3:21; 15:18; Romans 1:25; 9:5; 11:36; 12:2; 16:27; 1 Corinthians 1:20; 2:6 (2x), 7, 8; 3:18; 8:13; 10:11; 2 Corinthians 4:4; 9:9; 11:31; Galatians 1:4, 5 (2x); Ephesians 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9, 11, 21 (2x); 6:12; Philippians 4:20; Colossians 1:26; 1 Timothy 1:17 (3x); 6:17; 2 Timothy 4:10, 18 (2x); Titus 2:12; Hebrew 1:2, 8 (2x); 5:6; 6:5, 20; 7:17, 21, 24, 28; 9:26; 11:3; 13:8, 21 (2x); 1 Peter 1:23, 25; 4:11 (2x); 5:11; 2 Peter 2:17; 3:18; 1 John 2:17; 2 John 2; Jude 13, 25 (2x); Revelation 1:6 (2x), 18; 4:9 (2x), 10 (2x); 5:13 (2x), 14; 7:12 (2x); 10:6 (2x); 11:15 (2x); 14:11 (2x); 15:7 (2x); 19:3 (2x); 20:10 (2x); and 22:5 (2x).

The Greek word aioonios is found in Matthew 18:8; 19:16, 29; 25:41, 46 (2x); Mark 3:29; 10:17, 30; Luke 10:25; 16:9; 18:18, 30; John 3:15, 16, 36; 4:14, 36; 5:24, 39; 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 68; 10:28; 12:25, 50; 17:2, 3; Acts 13:46, 48; Romans 5:21; 6:22, 23; 16:25, 26; 2 Corinthians 4:17, 18; 5:1; Galatians 6:8; Philippians 4:20; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 2:16; 1 Timothy 1:16; 6:12, 16, 19; 2 Timothy 1:9; 2:10; Titus 1:2 (2x); 3:7; Philemon 15; Hebrews 5:9; 6:2; 9:12, 14, 15; 13:20; 1 Peter 5:10; 2 Peter 1:11; 1 John 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20; Jude 7, 21; Revelation 1:8; and 14:6.

The Greek word aei is found in Mark 15:8; Acts 7:51; 2 Corinthians 4:11; 6:10; Philippians 4:4; Colossians 4:6; 1 Thessalonians 2:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Titus 1:12; Hebrews 3:10; 1 Peter 3:15; and 2 Peter 1:12.

This is just a start for the Greek language of the B'rit Chadashah. One would still have to deal with the Hebrew (and Aramaic) of the Tanakh! For instance, the primary word translated as "for ever" in the KJV is `owlaam, spelled ayin-cholem-(with or without vav)-lamed-qamets-mem. Here are the Hebrew words and their definitions (and origins) that were translated "for ever" in the KJV:
OT:5769 `owlaam (o-lawm'); or `olaam (o-lawm'); from OT:5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:
KJV - alway (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+without end). Compare OT:5331, OT:5703.

OT:5956 `alam (aw-lam'); a primitive root; to veil from sight, i.e. conceal (literally or figuratively):
KJV - any ways, blind, dissembler, hide (self), secret (thing).

OT:5331 netsach (neh'-tsakh); or neetsach (nay'-tsakh); from OT:5329; properly, a goal, i.e. the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (i.e. to the most distant point of view);
KJV - alway (-s), constantly, end, (+n-) ever (more), perpetual, strength, victory.
OT:5329 naatsach (naw-tsakh'); a primitive root; properly, to glitter from afar, i.e. to be eminent (as a superintendent, especially of the Temple services and its music); also (as denominative from OT:5331), to be permanent:
KJV - excel, chief musician (singer), oversee (-r), set forward.
OT:5704 `ad (ad); properly, the same as OT:5703 (used as a preposition, adverb or conjunction; especially with a preposition); as far (or long, or much) as, whether of space (even unto) or time (during, while, until) or degree (equally with):
KJV - against, and, as, at, before, by (that), even (to), for (-asmuch as), [hither-] to, how long, into, as long (much) as, (so) that, till, toward, until, when, while, (+as) yet.

OT:5703 `ad (ad); from OT:5710; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition):
KJV - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, world without end.

OT:5710 `aadaah (aw-daw'); a primitive root; to advance, i.e. pass on or continue; causatively, to remove; specifically, to bedeck (i.e. bring an ornament upon):
KJV - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.

OT:3605 kol (kole); or (Jer 33:8) kowl (kole); from OT:3634; properly, the whole; hence, all, any or every (in the singular only, but often in a plural sense):
KJV - (in) all (manner, [ye]), altogether, any (manner), enough, every (one, place, thing), howsoever, as many as, [no-] thing, ought, whatsoever, (the) whole, whoso (-ever).

OT:3634 kaalal (kaw-lal'); a primitive root; to complete:
KJV - (make) perfect.
OT:6783 tsemiythuth (tsem-ee-thooth'); or tsemithuth (tsem-ee-thooth'); from OT:6789; excision, i.e. destruction; used only (adverbially) with prepositional prefix to extinction, i.e. perpetually:
KJV - ever.

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Think of "`owlaam" as looking down a straight railroad track to the vanishing point where the tracks appear to intersect. If the tracks kept going indefinitely, how far could you go toward the vanishing point?

The thing NOT to do is to trust in any one English version of the Bible! They are ALL works of men, of fallible human beings. They ALL are not the actual inspired Word of God. They ALL have their unique set of weaknesses, just as they ALL have their unique set of strengths. Robert Young's Literal Translation has some strengths, but it also has its own unique set of foibles, just as does the King James Authorized Version.

For instance, it is a HUGE error to translate the present tense of the Hebrew narrative into the present tense of the English language. We don't tell narratives that way in Western thought! We tell English narratives in the PAST tense! To tell them in the present tense confuses most people. It would be good for us to remember that Hebrew did use the present tense; however, for clarity's sake, one should not translate it that way.

Now, in the above passage, it's not enough to simply look at the word aioonios, or rather, aioonia, and its definition. One must also look at the context and the comparison embedded within the passage. What is the Greek word, for instance, translated "temporary" or "temporal?" How is it meant to compare with this word "aioonios?" The word is "proskaira," a form of "proskairos," and it comes from "pros" and "kairos" above. It means "forward to the occasion" or "toward the occasion." Thus, it is related to the word "kairos," and "kairos" would be the closest word by translation to the Hebrew word "mow`eed."

OT:4150 mow`eed (mo-ade'); or mo`eed (mo-ade'); or (feminine) mow`aadaah (2 Chron 8:13) (mo-aw-daw'); from OT:3259; properly, an appointment, i.e. a fixed time or season; specifically, a festival; conventionally a year; by implication, an assembly (as convened for a definite purpose); technically the congregation; by extension, the place of meeting; also a signal (as appointed beforehand):
KJV - appointed (sign, time), (place of, solemn) assembly, congregation, (set, solemn) feast, (appointed, due) season, solemn (-ity), synogogue, (set) time (appointed).

OT:4151 mow`aad (mo-awd'); from OT:3259; properly, an assembly [as in OT:4150]; figuratively, a troop:
KJV - appointed time.

OT:3259 yaa`ad (yaw-ad'); a primitive root; to fix upon (by agreement or appointment); by implication, to meet (at a stated time), to summon (to trial), to direct (in a certain quarter or position), to engage (for marriage): -agree, make an) appoint (-ment, a time), assemble (selves), betroth, gather (selves, together), meet (together), set (a time).

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Therefore, this word is related to the yearly keeping of holy days or "holidays," such as Pesach (Passover) and Shavu'owt (Pentecost, the JEWISH commemoration of the giving of the Law, "fifty" days after Passover).

Furthermore, what is the context talking about?

2 Corinthians 4:1-5:5
4:1 God has shown us such mercy that we do not lose courage as we do the work he has given us. 2 Indeed, we refuse to make use of shameful underhanded methods, employing deception or distorting God’s message. On the contrary, by making very clear what the truth is, we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 So if indeed our Good News is veiled, it is veiled only to those in the process of being lost. 4 They do not come to trust because the god of the ‘olam hazeh has blinded their minds, in order to prevent them from seeing the light shining from the Good News about the glory of the Messiah, who is the image of God. 5 For what we are proclaiming is not ourselves, but the Messiah Yeshua as Lord, with ourselves as slaves for you because of Yeshua. 6 For it is the God who once said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has made his light shine in our hearts, the light of the knowledge of God’s glory shining in the face of the Messiah Yeshua.
7 But we have this treasure in clay jars, so that it will be evident that such overwhelming power comes from God and not from us. 8 We have all kinds of troubles, but we are not crushed; we are perplexed, yet not in despair; 9 persecuted, yet not abandoned; knocked down, yet not destroyed. 10 We always carry in our bodies the dying of Yeshua, so that the life of Yeshua may be manifested in our bodies too. 11 For we who are alive are always being handed over to death for Yeshua’s sake, so that Yeshua’s life also might be manifested in our mortal bodies. 12 Thus death is at work in us but life in you.
13 The Tanakh says, “I trusted, therefore I spoke.” Since we have that same Spirit who enables us to trust, we also trust and therefore speak; 14 because we know that he who raised the Lord Yeshua will also raise us with Yeshua and bring us along with you into his presence. 15 All this is for your sakes, so that as grace flows out to more and more people, it may cause thanksgiving to overflow and bring glory to God.
16 This is why we do not lose courage. Though our outer self is heading for decay, our inner self is being renewed daily. 17 For our light and transient troubles are achieving for us an everlasting glory whose weight is beyond description. 18 We concentrate not on what is seen but on what is not seen, since things seen are temporary, but things not seen are eternal.
5:1 We know that when the tent which houses us here on earth is torn down, we have a permanent building from God, a building not made by human hands, to house us in heaven. 2 For in this tent, our earthly body, we groan with desire to have around us the home from heaven that will be ours. 3 With this around us we will not be found naked. 4 Yes, while we are in this body, we groan with the sense of being oppressed: it is not so much that we want to take something off, but rather to put something on over it; so that what must die may be swallowed up by the Life. 5 Moreover, it is God who has prepared us for this very thing, and as a pledge he has given us his Spirit.
CJB


He is talking about our BODIES! Our current, physical bodies are temporary, and they will be changed. Our future, physical bodies are said to be IMMORTAL, INCORRUPTIBLE, and GLORIOUS (GLOWING BRIGHTLY)!

Hope this has helped you.
 

Madad21

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Good grief man its gonna take me all day to read that!!!
Couldn't you just supply the link? :p
 

lukethreesix

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Mad, I think christians in general confuse salvation with "sitting at the masters table" or "reigning with Christ". Will everyone reign with Christ? NO! Only those who "in this life/age" was beheaded (Rev 20:4), (that is, removed their own head and put on Christ as their head). Those who are part of that first resurrection, they will sit at the Masters table and reign with Him (this is "salvation" to most christians). But I believe there is a difference between salvation and "inheriting the kingdom". Remember, even the "dogs" (Matt 15:27, Rev 22:15) get fed.
And what are they being fed? Crumbs from the Masters table. What is served at the masters table? Bread. Bread from where? Jesus said, "My flesh is the true bread from heaven. Your fathers ate the manna and died, but he who eats this bread will live. This is my body, take and eat."
 

Madad21

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lukethreesix said:
Mad, I think christians in general confuse salvation with "sitting at the masters table" or "reigning with Christ". Will everyone reign with Christ? NO! Only those who "in this life/age" was beheaded (Rev 20:4), (that is, removed their own head and put on Christ as their head). Those who are part of that first resurrection, they will sit at the Masters table and reign with Him (this is "salvation" to most christians).
Revelation 20:4
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Did you notice the "And" I tried to make it stand out a little


There are Dogs and then there are Dogs
Revelation 22:14-15 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Who are they who wash their robes?

Revelation 7:14

“These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Those who are outside did not wish to wash their robes, though they had the opportunity too, they turned their back and hated God. These "Dogs" are Vile and thats why they are outside.


Matthew 15:21-28
Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David,have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.” He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” The woman came and knelt before him. “Lord, help me!” she said. He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.” Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

This woman is a Gentile, Jesus tests her faith and says he was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel, she then as a Gentile recognised Jesus's authority and humbled herself believing He could heal her daughter, instead of accepting defeat and skulking away she was determined to receive Christ's mercy in this she showed even greater faith than most who would assume to sit at the masters table, she was rewarded for her faith.

There is a massive difference between the faith of this woman and the share lack of faith of the dogs who have been left outside the gate.

In fact she would get in, they would still be outside.
 

lukethreesix

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OK, one last question (then I give up, because no matter what I show you, you don't see it, and you won't UNTIL God wants you to)

Punishment is Eternal/Everlasting. Right? Then please explain Daniel 12:2 (Jesus quotes this in Matt 25:46), "olam punishment", how is it that Daniel's "olam" punishment is everlasting, but Jonah's "olam" punishment is not? Both are in the context of punishment, both use the same word to describe it. But we no its not forever/everlasting, because "Salvation is of the LORD"(Jonah 2:9)..

As Logabe stated above, Gods plan to bring His creation into perfection is so awesome our carnal minds cannot grasp it. I know you desire the truth. As do I. I'm not claiming to know it all, God reveals to me every single day something new, many times changing completely what I was so sure about the day before. But ONLY God can change hearts and minds, no body can "prove" to someone else what to believe.

One thing that is very important is to remember Proverbs 18:13, "If you don't listen to the argument, because you believe you already know the answer, than you are a fool and bring shame upon yourself."
Thats what I like about you, You do listen to the argument. YOU ARE NO FOOL!!! Keep studying man, keep studying.

If I can add one more thing....I've heard the argument before that because Punishment AND Life are described as "aionios" (Matt 25:46) than they must be of the same duration. But what must be understood is aionios is the adjective. For example, a BIG mouse and a BIG house, though they are both described as BIG, they are NOT of equal size. The Life given by Christ cannot be compared to His Punishment. Gods Grace out weights His Wrath (Ex 34:6-7). They are NOT equal, even though both are described by the same adjective.
 

Retrobyter

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Shalom, Madad21.

Madad21 said:
Good grief man its gonna take me all day to read that!!!
Couldn't you just supply the link? :p
<Sigh.> Oh, that my brothers and sisters would LOVE to study God's Word!

Just read the last paragraph. If Paul is talking about our immortal and incorruptible bodies, how long do YOU think they will last?!
 

Madad21

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Retrobyter said:
Shalom, Madad21.


<Sigh.> Oh, that my brothers and sisters would LOVE to study God's Word!

Just read the last paragraph. If Paul is talking about our immortal and incorruptible bodies, how long do YOU think they will last?!
You know I was originally joking with you, but since you want to posture yourself as one who LOVES Gods word by Cutting and pasting literally pages of information, then whatever you say mate.
Some of us actually have the common decency to try and keep our explanations to a couple of paragraphs out of respect to those who have to read it.
<Sigh.> Oh, that my brothers and sisters would stop LOVING themselves :blink:

lukethreesix said:
OK, one last question (then I give up, because no matter what I show you, you don't see it, and you won't UNTIL God wants you to)

Punishment is Eternal/Everlasting. Right? Then please explain Daniel 12:2 (Jesus quotes this in Matt 25:46), "olam punishment", how is it that Daniel's "olam" punishment is everlasting, but Jonah's "olam" punishment is not? Both are in the context of punishment, both use the same word to describe it. But we no its not forever/everlasting, because "Salvation is of the LORD"(Jonah 2:9)..

As Logabe stated above, Gods plan to bring His creation into perfection is so awesome our carnal minds cannot grasp it. I know you desire the truth. As do I. I'm not claiming to know it all, God reveals to me every single day something new, many times changing completely what I was so sure about the day before. But ONLY God can change hearts and minds, no body can "prove" to someone else what to believe.

One thing that is very important is to remember Proverbs 18:13, "If you don't listen to the argument, because you believe you already know the answer, than you are a fool and bring shame upon yourself."
Thats what I like about you, You do listen to the argument. YOU ARE NO FOOL!!! Keep studying man, keep studying.

If I can add one more thing....I've heard the argument before that because Punishment AND Life are described as "aionios" (Matt 25:46) than they must be of the same duration. But what must be understood is aionios is the adjective. For example, a BIG mouse and a BIG house, though they are both described as BIG, they are NOT of equal size. The Life given by Christ cannot be compared to His Punishment. Gods Grace out weights His Wrath (Ex 34:6-7). They are NOT equal, even though both are described by the same adjective.
Go on then run away if thats easier for you,


You just keep posting up scriptural references that you say explains what you know and then walking away.

Do you seriously think Im that dumb that Im going to just take your word for it and not study the scriptures you refer to?

is that what you did? is that why you believe this stuff because you never actually took the time to check it out properly?

If you have disagreed with any of my scriptural break downs then why havent you once shown me where IN THAT SCRIPTURE I have gone wrong.

The simple fact that you haven't done this is evidence that you have no idea how to explain your position using the scriptures that you claim are evidence.

Its actually incredibly frustrating for me that all you do is pack a big sulk, and try and cover up by piling on top more scriptures instead of showing me why that scripture means what it means with the wisdom you have used to decipher it.

If any one should be walking away its me

If what you believe is the gospel truth then Jesus calls you to give an account to those who ask, but your version of this is to just give up because I check out your references and find you have taken entire chapters right out of context in order to try and back your claims.

Like I said before, Im not trying to prove you wrong, your actually doing that all by yourself. but You want me to watch a youtube clips instead.

Fine, run away just be careful not to slam in to any walls with your eyes closed tight and both fingers in your ears.

Bye bye :)
 

lukethreesix

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No body is running away, I'm just tired of running in circles. If you can't see what I'm saying then there is no point. I do think you are trying to prove me wrong, YOU DO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE that Gods love and mercy will reach everyone. Like most of the church, you want to believe that God will save you BECAUSE of something you did. "THEY" did not, so God "can't or won't" save them. Christianity is not a country club (only members get in). The bible is clear if you want to believe, but to those who don't want to believe it doesn't.
I'll give you another scripture, "Jesus, the Savior of the World!" Do you believe that?
See, you will add to that scripture and say, "Yes, He is savior (to some of) the world" or "He is savior to the world (if the world wants Him to be)" No man, here another "Does the Potter not have power over the clay?" Do you believe that? You accuse me of "twisting" scripture. But its not me who adds to it, or claims it really doesn't mean what it say.
The potter DOES have power over the clay. And Jesus IS the Savior of the World (kosmos=all created things).
please explain Daniel 12:2 (Jesus quotes this in Matt 25:46), "olam punishment", how is it that Daniel's "olam" punishment is everlasting, but Jonah's "olam" punishment is not? Both are in the context of punishment, both use the same word to describe it. If olam only means "it feels like forever" than that's goods news! BUt it can't only "feel like" eternity to one and Actually BE eternity to another. LLet's start being a little more consistent....
 

Madad21

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.. .





lukethreesix said:
No body is running away,
Thats funny, because in you last post you were just about too.

lukethreesix said:
I'm just tired of running in circles.
Then stop running in circles and talk to me in the scriptures you have used to back up your belief. after all it is a bible study thread, I know, would you rather I not look in to the scriptures you used and just agree with you anyway, would that make you feel better?

lukethreesix said:
If you can't see what I'm saying then there is no point.
I dont see in the word where Jesus say "If they cannot see what your saying, then there just isnt any point, so give up."
If you want people to SEE your point, then show them in the Word where your point is supported, and be able and willing to defend that scripture, otherwise there really is no point, is there.

lukethreesix said:
. I do think you are trying to prove me wrong,
Its become obvious that there is a large difference between what you think and what you know.
Including your assumption of my motives.
,


lukethreesix said:
, YOU DO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE that Gods love and mercy will reach everyone.
Gods love and mercy will reach everyone absolutely, but not everybody wants it, which there inlays the problem to your theology

lukethreesix said:
Like most of the church, you want to believe that God will save you BECAUSE of something you did.
If you define something we did as, believing in the Death burial and resurrection of Jesus, God's only begotten Son. Then yes we are guilty of Belief as charged.
You caught us all out.

lukethreesix said:
"THEY" did not, so God "can't or won't" save them.
Umm nope, because according to you, everybodys going to be saved no matter what, see no wonder your going in circles.

lukethreesix said:
Christianity is not a country club (only members get in). The bible is clear if you want to believe, but to those who don't want to believe it doesn't.
I'll give you another scripture, "Jesus, the Savior of the World!" Do you believe that?
Christianity by definition is "Faith in Christ" Heaven is a place were people who have "Faith in Christ" go home AS THE BIBLE TEACHES.
and here's yet another partial scripture upon which you based your entire theology on, just keep ignoring the rest of that scripture and pretty much 99.9% of Gods word and you will be alright.
SESSH Here I go again anyway, yes Lukethreesix, Jesus is the Savior of the world, very clever of you pat yourself on the back. The "WORLD" has no other savior other than Jesus Christ. do YOU understand that. It in no way implies that Jesus is going to save the entire world, but that Jesus is the ONLY Savior. GET IT, why do I constantly feel like Im talking to a child?

lukethreesix said:
See, you will add to that scripture and say, "Yes, He is savior (to some of) the world" or "He is savior to the world (if the world wants Him to be)" No man, here another "Does the Potter not have power over the clay?" Do you believe that? You accuse me of "twisting" scripture. But its not me who adds to it, or claims it really doesn't mean what it say.
The potter DOES have power over the clay. And Jesus IS the Savior of the World (kosmos=all created things).
I suggest you actually read all of the Potter, and I suggest you lay off the greek translations when you have a hard enough time grabbing the basic concepts of whats being taught.

What does God do with a man who comes to faith?
He shapes and moulds that man in to the image of his Son. That in a nutshell is the basic concept of the potter. Its sooooo easy.
He will do nothing with a man who wont put himself in Gods hands. soooo easy.

lukethreesix said:
please explain Daniel 12:2 (Jesus quotes this in Matt 25:46), "olam punishment", how is it that Daniel's "olam" punishment is everlasting, but Jonah's "olam" punishment is not? Both are in the context of punishment, both use the same word to describe it. If olam only means "it feels like forever" than that's goods news! BUt it can't only "feel like" eternity to one and Actually BE eternity to another. LLet's start being a little more consistent....
If you had actually been bothered to read and understand what I said to you concerning Jonah in the first place, you would have seen the consistency, I have been nothing but consistant with you this entire time.

When Jonahs says eternal he means eternal, the three days has absolutely nothing to do with his prayer inside the whale.

Forget how long he was actually in the whale, it has absolutely no bearing on his prayer.

Read the entire prayer so you can get a good bearing on the situation, Lukethreesix.

Jonah is completely cut off, death has him barred and bolted in, there is no hope of ever returning, his situation was helpless and hopeless.
This is the truth about our war with death, for us it is eternal. we are helpless and hopeless against it.
We need to be pulled from the pit.

All your doing is looking at the word itself used for eternal and making your claims based on this so called new "enlightenment" you've apparently been shown.
The whole time as I have been trying to tell you from the start completely ignoring the context and commentary or flow of whats being taught. if you did but that you would see that not every time they say eternal they actually me "Age-abiding" meaning eternal by ages only.

Your trying to be a scholar in this new translation technique of yours but you lack basic biblical wisdom to be able to apply the principle properly. otherwise I dont disagree with you at all. You just keep using this mistranslation in all the wrong places.

Try reading the whole story of Jonah, understand whats going on, whats happening with him and then draw your conclusions, even consult some reliable commentaries to see if your suspicions are justified. thats why they are there.

Peace

Mike







..
 

lukethreesix

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Mad, you said, "even consult some reliable commentaries to see if your suspicions are justified". Dude, Thats the problem! Everyone depends on the "scribes and pharasees" and their "reliable commentaries", instead of relying on the Holy Spirit. He is WAY more reliable than these learned scholars and their seminaries. The church has been teaching false doctrines for 1500 years, we look back at things taught and we say "how could that have been accepted? (like slavery and womens rights)" I think we will look back at things taught today (like God torturing people forever) and say "how could that have been accepted?"
 

Madad21

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lukethreesix said:
Mad, you said, "even consult some reliable commentaries to see if your suspicions are justified". Dude, Thats the problem! Everyone depends on the "scribes and pharasees" and their "reliable commentaries", instead of relying on the Holy Spirit. He is WAY more reliable than these learned scholars and their seminaries. The church has been teaching false doctrines for 1500 years, we look back at things taught and we say "how could that have been accepted? (like slavery and womens rights)" I think we will look back at things taught today (like God torturing people forever) and say "how could that have been accepted?"
This coming from a guy who wanted me to watch a youtube clip to gain insight.
Is that how you study

You dont look in to a commentary to believe every word its says, the Holy Spirit guides you and you compare and test everything, this includes prayer and meditation on the scriptures. :blink:

You sound like all those other talking heads who shout from your chair over the top of everybody else "The Church is to blame, they are lying and have been for 1500 years BLAH BLAH BLAH"

I and many others are well aware of history of the Church and its practices.
.
If your not studying the Word then you have no position on any biblical matter.

People have so little faith in the Spirit, it doesnt matter what translation sits in your Lap, Its Christ that guides a mans heart and mind.
Weather the scriptures came together by corruption or not it was all through the divine purpose of God who works all things out for good.

If you truly believe what you say then throw your bible in the bin because it is obviously not the truth.

But as for me I will believe the Words of God

I notice you didnt argue with any of the other things I said.

Now I answered you question about Jonah (again) can I get some sort of realistic response from what I said.PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSEEEEE.
 

lukethreesix

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ok...after dinner I will take on your 2 Cor 4:18 passage....
oh, and BTW, I study my Bible hours upon hours everyday and believe every word it says. The trouble is, any thing you want it to say, it can. Which is why slavery and such was defended for so long, because no where does it condemn it. If you really want to believe something, you can justify it through scripture, depending on interpretation. Give me an hour and I'll make my case....
"Things that are seen last only for the age, but fix your eyes on the things unseen for they last into the next." 2 Cor 4:18 Its really that simple.

I will now present my case, according to scripture, the short but sweet version. Most of my theology comes from the first chapter of Genesis. Well, its the foundation in which it is built. Jesus said in John 5:17 that God is still working. And its clear that God is not done creating. God did not create once a long time ago, but IS creating and has not yet finished. Is He finished with you? Are you formed into that perfect man? No, not yet. Everyday new life, new hearts, and one day a new heaven and new earth. God did not say "very good" 6,000 years ago, but it is what He will say when He is done creating mankind into his image and likeness and looks at all He has created and Behold! It will be very good. God showed me one day as I was reading Genesis chapter 1, that the "days" of creation are the stages of each mans transformation (and at the same time the ages of mankind as a whole) into perfection. I don't have the time to go through each day, I'd be here all nite. But I will breifly speak on day 1, 6, and 7. Notice on day one, "void and dark". Each man is void and dark, completely empty without Christ. And the first step is Gods Spirit "Moving upon the waters" that is warming the heart of ice. After He has warmed the Heart, "Light appears". The light is Christ "who lights each man who comes into the world (Jn 1:9)" Then He "seperates the light from dark" that is writing His law on their hearts, teaching them the way (Ps 25:8). Skipping to day 6, and we see God making man and woman in His image, giving them all of creation to govern, and He is satisfied. (If God created it perfect, how did it fall if it was perfect? And how do we know if He creates the new earth perfect too, that it won't fall again?) Now day 7, "The heavens and the earth are FINISHED". That word "finished" means completed, over, done, gone, past, (But as I said before, God isn't finished yet), when Jesus said "it is finished" was there more suffering to come? No. The suffering was no more. One day, the heavens and the earth and all the host will be no more, and only God will be again. Notice all the days 1-6 have evenings and mornings, beginnings and ends, ages, time. Creation has a beginning and it has an end. But God, the seventh day has no beginning or end. As God only existed in the beginning (eternity), so will God, when He has finished His creation and it has come to a conclusion, He will be fully satisfied, and will rest. For eternity. Eternity only exist when God is alone. As long as there is creation, there is time.
Think of it like this: God is a rain cloud. He has poured out Himself into all these indivigual rain drops. sending them to earth to bring life and growth watering the ground. But the rain drops eventually sink underground, but when the SON rises and heats up the ground the water droplets evaporate and rise back up into the cloud from which they came.
The point is: God is not done!
All things came from Him and all things will return to Him.