Eight objections to evolution

Armour of God said:

I believe in Gods creation as the bible says.
You reject the bible and believe in the atheist pseudo-science lies that humans came from monkeys.
The case against it is in the link below and in the op and in the videos I posted of scientists refuting the theory

The Scientific Case Against Evolution

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Your "scientific case against evolution?" That's Henry Morris, who late into the `1990s, was blathering about the supposed intellectual and spiritual inferiority of black people:

“Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow, they have only gone so far and no further. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they were eventually displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.”
Henry Morris The Beginning of the World 1999

For tens of thousands of years, there have been no biological races of humans. Morris has just tried to recruit science to support his prejudices. And he's your authority?

The Barbarian said:

That's not what "irreducible complexity" means.

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Its when you have a system of parts in which none have any viable function without the remaining parts. An example is the flagellum, a propulsion system in some single cell creatures. These have an axel, a rotor, and a stator, forming an ion based electric motor. Take away one of these parts, the rest are useless.

This is a complex system, and is considered irreducible because if you reduce the components, its non-viable.

Much love!

marks said:

Its when you have a system of parts in which none have any viable function without the remaining parts. An example is the flagellum, a propulsion system in some single cell creatures.

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No. There are various kinds of bacterial flagella, each more or less complex than the others. By definition, they cannot be inrreducibly complex. Even the simplest conceivable flagellum is not irreducibly complex. Here's why:

The bacterial flagellum likely evolved from a simpler bacterial secretion system, specifically the Type III secretory system, which was later adapted for motility. This evolution involved the addition of an ion pump that became the motor protein, followed by the development of the flagellar filament for swimming motility.

It's really a moot point, since the evolution of an irreducibly complex system has been observed.

Genetics 982 Jul;101(3-4):335–344.

Evolution of a Regulated Operon in the Laboratory​

The evolution of new metabolic functions is being studied in the laboratory using the EBG system of E. coli as a model system. It is demonstrated that the evolution of lactose utilization by lacZ deletion strains requires a series of structural and regulatory gene mutations. Two structural gene mutations act to increase the activity of ebg enzyme toward lactose, and to permit ebg enzyme to convert lactose into allolactose, an inducer of the lac operon. A regulatory mutation increases the sensitivity of the ebg repressor to lactose, and permits sufficient ebg enzyme activity for growth. The resulting fully evolved ebg operon regulates its own expression, and also regulates the synthesis of the lactose permease.

Conceptually, it's not hard to get. Take a stone arch:

Remove one stone from the arch, and it falls. It's irreducibly complex. So how could they possibly build it? If you know that, it would be easier to understand why irreducible complexity evolves.

The Barbarian said:

Like most recently-evolved species, they are also potentially capable of interbreeding,

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That's still the same contradiction of terms. If they can interbreed, they are not a new species.

Is that what the "new science" is, moving the goalposts? "Well, they can still breed, but that doesn't mean they are the same species"?

Much love!

The Barbarian said:

The bacterial flagellum likely evolved from a simpler bacterial secretion system, specifically the Type III secretory system, which was later adapted for motility. This evolution involved the addition of an ion pump that became the motor protein, followed by the development of the flagellar filament for swimming motility.

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That's magical thinking. Black box. Somehow this motor appeared. There is no explanation here.

And in fact this is irreducible complexity.

"likely evolved", maybe, possibly, but, no, it didn't, just like the motor in my car.

Much love!

The Barbarian said:

Two structural gene mutations act to increase the activity of ebg enzyme toward lactose, and to permit ebg enzyme to convert lactose into allolactose, an inducer of the lac operon.

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More magical thinking. Somehow these two mutations formed this system.

Much love!

Two structural gene mutations act to increase the activity of ebg enzyme toward lactose, and to permit ebg enzyme to convert lactose into allolactose, an inducer of the lac operon.

marks said:

More magical thinking.

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Just chemistry, random mutation and natural selection. All observed and documented over time.

marks said:

Somehow these two mutations formed this system.

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Observably so. Those mutations made it work. No point in denial.

marks said:

That's magical thinking.

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Molecular biology. You see, stuff like that leaves evidence. So we find the same mechanisms in secretory systems slightly modified to produce a flagellum.

marks said:

And in fact this is irreducible complexity.

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As you have seen, there are a number of bacterial flagella, each more or less complex than the others. By definition, bacterial flagella are not irreducibly complex. Remember Behe's definition.

The Barbarian said:

Molecular biology. You see, stuff like that leaves evidence. So we find the same mechanisms in secretory systems slightly modified to produce a flagellum.


As you have seen, there are a number of bacterial flagella, each more or less complex than the others. By definition, bacterial flagella are not irreducibly complex. Remember Behe's definition.

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You are not using the correct meaning of irreducible complexity, and in doing so you are evading the entire issue. I'm not interesting in talking in circles, so I'll leave you to it.

Much love!

marks said:

That's still the same contradiction of terms. If they can interbreed, they are not a new species.

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If you think polar bears and brown bears are one species, we've located your problem. You see, evolutionary theory predicts that recently-evolved species will generally be at least someone able to reproduce together. As Darwin said, evolution would require all sorts of transitional cases of half-species, quarter-species, etc. The fact that these exist are an incomprehensible difficulty for creationists, but are a prediction of evolutionary theory.

Even many creationists have now abandoned their objections to the evolution of new species, since such evolution has been directly observed. Would you like me to show you that?

marks said:

You are not using the correct meaning of irreducible complexity

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I showed you the correct meaning

Micheal Behe defined the term in Darwin's Black Box:

... a single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning.

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Since there are a number of typed of bacterial flagella, each more or less complex than the others, by definition, the bacterial flagellum cannot be irreducibly complex. Rather than evading the issue, you're just ignoring what the term means.

From a website of theists:

Bacterial Flagellum: Irreducibly Complex?​

The bacterial flagellum inspires awe and worship—not because it can't be explained by natural processes, but because it can.

marks said:

I'm not interesting in talking in circles,

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Here's your chance then. Go to the link and learn what scientists who are actually Christians think about it. Biologos was founded by an evangelical Christian who found God after studying biology and learning that it was much more wonderful than YE creationists are willing to accept.

The Barbarian said:

by definition, the bacterial flagellum cannot be irreducibly complex.

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I find that statement absurd, and demonstrates no understanding of what we are talking about.

If you remove the stator from a axel/rotor/stator motor, will it continue to function? I'll answer. No it will not. You will have reduced it to non-functionality.

Much love!

Grailhunter said:

Quantum-Mechanics and Computer Science and Nuclear Weapons for 24 years. Life long formal education.
I do believe in God I just do not think the world is flat or just 8,000 years old.
The scriptures are a great place for religion not a good source on how to do brain surgery or cosmology.

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You keep mentioning flat earth and 8,000 years. That's not what I'm arguing nor what i believe so please stop trying to strawman me

The evolution argument opposes the argument for intelligent design, for God.

It's sad too see that you have been deceived by the atheist lies, being in education I can see how that's happened.
But at least it didn't totally fool you. At least you still believe in God so good for you.

The main problem with the lie of evolution is that it pulls people away from God, especially young people.
In schools it gets presented to them as if it's an unquestionable fact.
They never get shown the case for intelligent design so the kids walk away from God.
They should at least be shown both sides of the argument but science is secular and doesn't dare do that.

When I was studying engineering I became an atheist.
I believed science had a materialistic understanding of everything.
But then I noticed that theoretical science doesnt operate like applied science does.
It has a much lower standard of evidence.
We have to be 100% certain of something like a new material or process before it can be used.
Theoretic science comes up with a theory or hypothesis and search for evidence to support that while ignoring the evidence that doesn't, resulting in a theory full of assumptions that are untestable and unobservable.

So then I started listening to the arguments for intelligent design from scientists all around the world.
I started listening to debates.
A great one was between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox about 20 years ago.
That got me thinking, really thinking objectively.
And for a while I became agnostic before finally believing in God and His processes.

At the very least, people should be listening to both sides of the argument, especially young people. Otherwise, just presenting evolution as infallible, pulls many people away from God which is very sad to see.

God bless

marks said:

I find that statement absurd, and demonstrates no understanding of what we are talking about.

If you remove the stator from a axel/rotor/stator motor, will it continue to function? I'll answer. No it will not. You will have reduced it to non-functionality.

Much love!

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I had this debate with the Barbarian on another thread and refuted his claims and arguments.
I see that you are doing the same.
God bless

Armour of God said:

You keep mentioning flat earth and 8,000 years. That's not what I'm arguing nor what i believe so please stop trying to strawman me

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Well we are talking about exactly what the scriptures say. And you point out believing most of it but not all of it, is not right. Well if you do not believe the world is flat then you to do not believe everything it says.

Armour of God said:

The evolution argument opposes the argument for intelligent design, for God.

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You are right Intelligent design is God's creation happening as evolution over billions of years.

Armour of God said:

The main problem with the lie of evolution is that it pulls people away from God, especially young people.
In schools it gets presented to them as if it's an unquestionable fact.
They never get shown the case for intelligent design so the kids walk away from God.
They should at least be shown both sides of the argument but science is secular and doesn't dare do that.

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No, Intelligent Design makes the whole thing believable for young people. Young people of today know there were dinosaurs and "Cave Men." Creationism sounds like fantasy to them. God is real so the Truth will make sense.

Grailhunter said:

Well we are talking about exactly what the scriptures say. And you point out believing most of it but not all of it, is not right. Well if you do not believe the world is flat then you to do not believe everything it says.

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Strawman. I'm not arguing flat earth, I've said this multiple times now.
Besides, bible doesn't say the earth is flat anyway

Grailhunter said:

No, Intelligent Design makes the whole thing believable for young people. Young people of today know there were dinosaurs and "Cave Men." Creationism sounds like fantasy to them. God is real so the Truth will make sense

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My point was that teaching the theory of evolution as infallible, pulls people away from God, as it did with me.
And that they should listen to the other side of the argument, the intelligent design side.
Wouldn't you agree?

Do you believe Adam and Eve were monkeys?

Armour of God said:

When I was studying engineering I became an atheist.
I believed science had a materialistic understanding of everything.
But then I noticed that theoretical science doesnt operate like applied science does.
It has a much lower standard of evidence.
We have to be 100% certain of something like a new material or process before it can be used.
Theoretic science comes up with a theory or hypothesis and search for evidence to support that while ignoring the evidence that doesn't, resulting in a theory full of assumptions that are untestable and unobservable.

So then I started listening to the arguments for intelligent design from scientists all around the world.
I started listening to debates.
A great one was between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox about 20 years ago.
That got me thinking, really thinking objectively.
And for a while I became agnostic before finally believing in God and His processes.

At the very least, people should be listening to both sides of the argument, especially young people. Otherwise, just presenting evolution as infallible, pulls many people away from God which is very sad to see.

Click to expand...

At one time science thought they had it all explained.....The Atom and subatomic particles and the universe. But as it went a long they found out the more they know the more questions arise. They thought electrons orbited the nucleus but then they found out that electrons were disappear in one place and reappearing in another at the speed of light....Then they found intelligent subatomic particles.....God is everywhere, is this part of God's awareness? Then they discovered DNA, and realized it was more or less a biological program and then they discovered the complexities of DNA to the point that there is no way it could have happened by accident. It had to be designed by intelligence. As time goes on science is proving God exists and a lot of the scriptures are a matter of history.

Armour of God said:

Strawman. I'm not arguing flat earth, I've said this multiple times now.
Besides, bible doesn't say the earth is flat anyway

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LOL The scriptures do not say the earth is flat.....LOL
Why did the Jews and Christians believe that the world was flat and the sun and moon and stars moved around it? Why did they believe the world was on a fixed foundation? And why did sailors worry about sailing off the end of the world?

It wasn’t just the Jews and Christians; it was a common belief of the time period. And you will see a lot of references to “ the ends of the world and ends of the earth” The phrase mean something entirely different to us because we know the planet is round but, back then it was a fear…..of falling off the ends of the world….particularly for sailors.

The scriptures detail the earth stationary and flat and on a foundation.

According to these scriptures the earth has a foundation….and it was set on pillars that could be shaken but the earth could not move and the sun and moon moved around it….and if an object was tall enough it could be seen from the four corners of the earth because the earth was flat….and it had corners….and the sun and moon can stop traveling around the flat earth…. and heaven has windows.

1st Chronicles 16:30
Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved….. (They believed that the Earth did not rotate or move….. everything… sun, moon, and stars, orbits the earth.)

Psalm 104:5
He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

1st Samuel 2:8
He raises the poor from the dust and lifts the needy from the ash heap; he seats them with princes and has them inherit a throne of honor. For the foundations of the earth are the LORD’s; on them he has set the world.

Daniel 4:11
The tree grew large and became strong And its height reached to the sky, And it was visible to the end of the whole earth. The earth would have to be flat for the tree to be visible from the whole earth.

Isaiah 11:12
He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth….

Revelation 7:1
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree…..The earth has corners,

Job 28:24
For he looks to the ends of the earth and sees everything under the heavens.

Job 37:3
He unleashes his lightning beneath the whole heaven and sends it to the ends of the earth……..the earth has ends?

Jeremiah 51:16
When he utters his voice there is a tumult of waters in the heavens, and he makes the mist rise from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses.

John 17:24
Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth?

Psalm 19:4-6
Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun, which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy. Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them, and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Psalm 67:7
God shall bless us; let all the ends of the earth fear him!

Psalm 98:3
He has remembered his steadfast love and faithfulness to the house of Israel. All the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Jeremiah 16:19
O Lord, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: “Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit.

1st Samuel 2:10
The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces; against them he will thunder in heaven. The Lord will judge the ends of the earth; he will give strength to his king and exalt the power of his anointed.”

Psalm 19:4
Their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,
(The ends of the world…..the ends of the earth….the four corners!! This was a big concern with sailors….that they would fall off the end of the world.)

Genesis 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened……(windows in the filament?)

Genesis 7:2
The fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, the rain from the heavens was restrained,

Isaiah 24:18
He who flees at the sound of the terror shall fall into the pit, and he who climbs out of the pit shall be caught in the snare. For the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.

Proverbs 8:29
And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day.

Psalms 75:3
When the earth totters, and all its inhabitants, it is I who keep steady its pillars.…(the earth set on pillars?)

Job 9:6
Who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble;

Ecclesiastes 1:5
The sun rises, and the sun goes down, and hastens to the place where it rises……(there is a place where the sun rises?)

Habukkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their place at the light of your arrows as they sped, at the flash of your glittering spear.

Joshua 10:12-13
At that time Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, “Sun, stand still at Gibeon, and moon, in the Valley of Aijalon.”And the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stopped in the midst of heaven and did not hurry to set for about a whole day……
It would be that the earth stopped rotating not the sun and moon stopping.

Over the years science has proven a lot of what in the Old Testament is true. But there is the human perspective of trying to explain and understand some events.