Ye are my Witnesses

If Heb. 11:39 is what you are quoting, I don't see where it is saying Elijah died. That those mentioned did not recieve the promises, yes. Plus, Elijah is not mentioned in this group.

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Elijah not in this group?

Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets. 11:33 Through faith they conquered kingdoms, administered justice,36 gained what was promised,37 shut the mouths of lions, 11:34 quenched raging fire,38 escaped the edge of the sword, gained strength in weakness,39 became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight

Was Elijah a prophet?

2Kings 2:11 " And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."

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By Heaven do you infer Elijah went into Gods place of abode? Or, is this to mean Elijah went in the air taken away to be buried?

John 3:13 And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

Now the heaven here in John 3 is not the heaven in 2 Kings 2.

On both points it is easy to conclude Elijah is dead and buried.

Purity

Purity said:

Elijah not in this group?

Heb 11:32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets. 11:33 Through faith they conquered kingdoms, administered justice,36 gained what was promised,37 shut the mouths of lions, 11:34 quenched raging fire,38 escaped the edge of the sword, gained strength in weakness,39 became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight

Was Elijah a prophet?


By Heaven do you infer Elijah went into Gods place of abode? Or, is this to mean Elijah went in the air taken away to be buried?

John 3:13 And no one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

Now the heaven here in John 3 is not the heaven in 2 Kings 2.

On both points it is easy to conclude Elijah is dead and buried.

Purity

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Yes I can include Elijah as one of the prophets. Yet it says 'they never recieved the promises' not that they died. And Enoch did not die either. See Heb. 11:5.

It says Elijah was taken to Heaven. Nothing is said about burying him.

Why isn't the heaven the same in 2 Kings 2 as it is in John 3? John 3:13 doesn't mean no one is in heaven. Christ is explaining to Nicodemus that those who believe have their origin in heaven. John 3:3 ..." Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" 'Born again' here is literally 'born from above'. Unles ones origin is not correct, from above, then he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Then in John 3:5 you see that to those who are 'from above' will enter the kindom through the water and the Spriit. The water being the Word of God. See 4:14.

Thus Christ's statement in John 3:13 " no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven'

As Elijah and Enoch were defintiely believers in the true God, then I believe Elijah went to heaven as 2Kings tells us.

Quantrill

Zechariah 4
King James Version (KJV)



4 And the angel that talked with me came again, and waked me, as a man that is wakened out of his sleep.
2 And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold acandlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4 So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?


[background=#fafafa]The TWO GROUPS of people who are the ONLY TWO WITNESSES in earth who stand for the only true and wise God ARE, the true believers in Christ Jesus the Son of God, otherwise know as Christians or formally known as the WILD OLIVE TREE; and the other witness[/background][background=#fafafa] is ISRAEL, which is the NATURAL OLIVE TREE.[/background]

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We are waiting for you to make the connection - will we ever see it?

Purity said:

We are waiting for you to make the connection - will we ever see it?

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Im waiting for you to make the connection. Will I ever see it?

Quantrill

Im waiting for you to make the connection. Will I ever see it?

Quantrill

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Are you Boaz?

Purity said:

Are you Boaz?

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Can you read?

Quantrill

Romans 11:16-24
King James Version (KJV)


16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


You see the TWO WITNESSES are already here in the earth. The church which consits of the Jews and the Gentiles are already witnessing for God.

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Boaz, what I was asking for is an understanding of "how" Romans 11 relates to Rev 11...from the above it appears you are saying "well there are 2 groups in Romans 11 and 2 witnesses in Rev 11 therefore they are the same"

Can you see how the premise of your reasoning here could be questioned?

Thanks
Purity

Boaz said:

The olive tree are the Jews and the Gentiles that make up the church


[SIZE=10pt]THE 1260 DAYS OF DANIEL 7[/SIZE]


[SIZE=10pt]The number 1260 is not just a rough figure because it is mentioned seven [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]times in the Bible in various different ways:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt] Daniel 7:25 "a time, times and half a time"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] Daniel 12:7 "a time, times and half a time"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] Revelation 11:2 "42 months"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] Revelation 11:3 "1260 days"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] Revelation 11:11 3½ years[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] Revelation 12:6 "1260 days"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] Revelation 12:14 "a time, times and half a time"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt] [/SIZE]Revelation 13:5 "forty-two months

[SIZE=14pt]The TWO GROUPS of people who are the ONLY TWO WITNESSES in all the earth who stand for the only true and wise God ARE [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] Number 1[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], the true believers in Christ Jesus the Son of God, otherwise know as Christians or Gentiles or formally known as the WILD OLIVE TREE;[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt] Number 2, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the other witness standing before the one true God is ISRAEL, which is the NATURAL OLIVE TREE.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]So you see we have TWO different GROUPS of people who stand for the God of the earth, and it is these TWO GROUPS who are the TWO WITNESSES spoke of in the book of Revelation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]We can see these TWO GROUPS, the Jews, who believe in Almighty God the Father, and the Christians or GENTILES those who believe in Jesus, [/SIZE]

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Boaz,

Do you have anything else other than numerology to support your assumption?

I agree with you regarding Romans 11 being there are two groups in the household of God. This is not in dispute - just need more context around Rev 11.

Who are these two witness warring against?

Purity

You will notice that the woman and the two witnesses time 1206 days etc are the same thus the church is the Jews and the Gentiles the beast overcame them by persecuting them they war against the beast and there followers .

Are saying that revelation 11 is future ?

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No, not future, the two witnesses have done their work.

“The holy city shall they tread under foot forty-two months.”

Computed according to lunar months (30 days), as is normal in Scripture, this represents a period of 1260 days, the period of Christ's ministry. It is the same length of time as is given in different words in Rev 11:3. Why the two methods of describing time periods?

Because they are to be computed from different commencing dates. This same distinction is preserved throughout The Apocalypse (cp. Rev. 11:2; 13:5 with Rev. 11:3; 12:6). There is a third method of describing 1260 days, for it is also given as "time, times and a half (Rev. 12:14). In this case, it links the period with Dan. 7:25; 12:7. Each method of describing the 1260 days, links the period to a specific commencing date that is to be observed wherever that particular form of words is used. The verse before us speaks of an epoch when the "holy city" (the Ecclesia) is trodden underfoot by those in "the court of the Gentiles," or those organised as a "Christian" community but with whom the "holy city" will have no fellowship. The symbol points to Roman Catholicism, which claims to be "Christian" but is not. Roman Catholicism, was granted power by the decrees of Justinian (533) and Phocas (606-610), two emperors of Constantinople. The development and decline of the Papacy, bridged by the epoch of 1260 years.


The warfare suggested in this prophecy commenced on the establishment of Christianity as the State Church in the year 312. This was the epoch of the Great Division in the church, when the Donatists refused to conform to decrees that issued forth from the State Church backed by the authority of Constantine's government. It commenced a period of religious controversy which continued for 1260 years to 1572 and the Massacre of St. Bartholomew. In that year, Rome made determined efforts to still the voice of religous opposition. This succeeded in France, at least, where a terrible massacre of those opposed to Rome took place. This terminated the effective testimony of the witnesses, which then "finished" (Rev 11:7), and they were given over to political death. The coupe de grace came 1685 when, after a century of terrible persecution, the Edict of Nantes that had granted some relief to the persecuted was revoked, and effective witnessing ceased for a time.

Purity.

Do you believe rome implemented Sunday worship ?

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Certainly we have inherited organised religion today, though this is not entirely a bad thing. Sunday is believed to be the day of the resurrection of Jesus and his manifestation as the living Lord to his disciples (Matthew 28; Luke 24; John 20). It is the day of the gathering of the congregation for proclamation and for remembrance (1 Cor. 16:2; Acts 20:7–12). Participation in Sunday worship (though I presume any day would permit) is an obvious expression of a life “in Christ” for most Christians today. Sadly this has caused many Christians a false sense of security in thinking attendance will save. Early church history (Justin) would indicate they instituted the first day for Eucharist and my view is yes the early apostate church moved into Sunday worship no doubt for convenience and uniformity in worship.

Personally, I attend a meeting place every Sunday, Wednesday and other various days but have held a remembrance of the Lord on other days as well. You may recall the Lords words "As often as ye do this you do show the Lords death till he come" - for obvious reasons the Lord would encourage a freedom and liberty in this memorial service.

Purity

Do you believe rome implemented Sunday worship ?


Daniel 7:25
King James Version (KJV)



25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out thesaints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


This period was to continue for "a Time, Times and the dividing of Time." A "Time" anciently was one year of 360 days. "Times" was always two years or 720 days, and a half a Time, would be half of 360 or 180. Adding these together we have 1,260 days. This was the period for the church, (the saints), to be under the dominion of this persecuting power.

The scripture and history both show us that the ancient year had just 360 days

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Yahweh's prophecy both in Daniel and the Revelation is continuous historic...the futurist view does not fit anywhere in scripture - Dan 2 & 7 are clearly continuous historic as is the apocalypse. This is very easy to prove - let me know if you require the evidence

Dan 7:25 "And they shall be given into his hand" The Catholic "little horn" had temporary success against the "saints of the Most High. This came to a head with the massacre of "St Bartholomew in 1572 (1260 years from the triumph of Constantine in 312), when every brutal attempt was made by Rome to silence any voice of opposition to its authority, and crush any anti-papal
organisation. The forces of the State were used to kill their adversaries, and this they did ruthlessly in their thousands. Every form of cruel and vicious torture was used to force Jews and Protestants to recant.

The unfolding of Christendom and its history is integral to understanding these prophecies and how they relate to the hope of Israel.

Hope this helps.
Purity