Salvation Not Possible Without Works

IBeMe · Feb 11, 2014

williemac: The judgment seat of Christ is not a judgment that determines one's eternal destiny. It is simply to determine rewards.

What you teach is contrary to the words of Jesus.

... hath given him authority to execute judgment ... Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

It only makes sense to just do what Jesus says!

Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

williemac: Since we are told that we are justified by faith, how do we get to where we need works to help in this justification?

We're made free from sin by faith.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Works of defiance against God receive their reward; ... hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace ...

... they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation ...

Only those willing to do what Jesus says; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

williemac: The confusion on subject like this, for some, lies in thinking that the works help salvation.

Confusion is thinking you can justify evil works.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Jesus shed His blood to free us from the bondage of sin.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Willful sins are arrogant defiance against God, and glorifies Satan; ... hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing ...

williemac: Thus, the term used by James was meant to stir up a better showing of love, not disqualify anyone. A reading of the complete letter in context will indicate this.

Reading the Bible will show how defiantly contrary to the words of Jesus, your teaching is.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Contrary to what you teach, Jesus says defiance to do what God say is an act of self-induced disqualification.

williemac: Yes, Jesus on His judgment seat, will look at the both the quantity and quality of our life and works. But if a person never received life in the first place, he will not appear before this judgment seat. It is reserved for the body of Christ. And no one appearing there will be disqualified there. (refer to John 5:24)

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

What you teach is absolutely, totally, contrary to the words of Jesus the next verse down.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

williemac: In terms of the gift of life (salvation), we are told in no uncertain terms that works do not qualify us

Wilful works of sin are acts of self-disqualification.

.

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 11, 2014

Secondhand Lion said:
Ernest, you see what you want to see, you make the scriptures fit what your other doctrine is, not what they plainly say. Paul, again, is plainly laying out a case. No "higher" understanding needed. You seem to do this over and over. You ignore the plain sense in Romans and now again in Galatians. I thought you completely insane when you attempted to make an argument that you can somehow have a group without individuals...now you flatly deny the sufficiency of Christ's work. I wish you could hear the inflection in my voice because I stand in doubt of you. You can not make both the argument that Christ is sufficient and He needs us to finish His work by our works....they are contradictory viewpoints. (maybe you could look up the word sufficient)

The book of Galatians addresses this subject from beginning to end and draws a completely different conclusion than you do.

If the plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense lest you make non-sense.

I'll repost my OP again for it has book, chapter and verses to back up my argument:

It takes obedient works of belief, repentance, confession and submitting to water baptism in order to become a Christian, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16. After becoming a Christian, there are good works God has before ordained the Christian to walk in, Eph 2:10. One must be a Christian to be saved and it takes obedient works to become saved and good works to remain saved.

Again, Christ's works are sufficient to save EVERY MAN (Heb 2:9) yet every man will not be saved...why? For every man will not obey Christ (Heb 5:9) in believing repenting confessing and submitting to water baptism. I have never said anything about us finishing Christ's work for He finished His own works His Father sent HIm to do, yet Christ left obedient works for man to do.

In those Galatian passages you try to dismiss//ignore Paul telling them TWICE about having quit obeying the truth. They cannot be saved having quit obeying the truth and were therefore fallen from grace. That passage in Galatians you tried to use against me actually proves my point. There is not a single passage in any of Paul's epsitles where he told people that for them to be saved they need to "do nothing for Christ's work is sufficent to save you"...it's just not there.

Secondhand Lion · Feb 11, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
I'll repost my OP again for it has book, chapter and verses to back up my argument:

It takes obedient works of belief, repentance, confession and submitting to water baptism in order to become a Christian, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16. After becoming a Christian, there are good works God has before ordained the Christian to walk in, Eph 2:10. One must be a Christian to be saved and it takes obedient works to become saved and good works to remain saved.

Again, Christ's works are sufficient to save EVERY MAN (Heb 2:9) yet every man will not be saved...why? For every man will not obey Christ (Heb 5:9) in believing repenting confessing and submitting to water baptism. I have never said anything about us finishing Christ's work for He finished His own works His Father sent HIm to do, yet Christ left obedient works for man to do.

In those Galatian passages you try to dismiss//ignore Paul telling them TWICE about having quit obeying the truth. They cannot be saved having quit obeying the truth and were therefore fallen from grace. That passage in Galatians you tried to use against me actually proves my point. There is not a single passage in any of Paul's epsitles where he told people that for them to be saved they need to "do nothing for Christ's work is sufficent to save you"...it's just not there.

what was the truth they quit obeying from your perspective?

Christ's gospel? And returned to the old testament. He is explaining that Christ's Gospel is by faith...not by works. So then we agree that Christ is sufficient...we don't come by the fulfilling of the law (because we do not frustrate the grace of God and Christ is not dead in vain) and that no works are required on my part for salvation.

Sorry, I don't know what we were arguing about then.

Ps. sorry if you caught that before it was done, I am at work and must have hit post before it was done

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 12, 2014

Secondhand Lion said:
what was the truth they quit obeying from your perspective?

Christ's gospel? And returned to the old testament. He is explaining that Christ's Gospel is by faith...not by works. So then we agree that Christ is sufficient...we don't come by the fulfilling of the law (because we do not frustrate the grace of God and Christ is not dead in vain) and that no works are required on my part for salvation.

Sorry, I don't know what we were arguing about then.

Ps. sorry if you caught that before it was done, I am at work and must have hit post before it was done

"The truth" they had quit obeying was Christ's gospel truth. Christ said "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" Rev 2:26. The verb "keepeth" being in the present tense showing an ongoing, sustained action. So there is no way possible for a Christian to not keep Christ'w works, not keep obeyng the truth and be saved....no works = no salvation

As to the Galatians, they had falsely believed they could be justified by going back to the OT law and be circumcised. Justifiication comes obeying the turth (CHrist's NT) and not by keeping the OT law. Paul tells them "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." Gal 5:6 Paul says as much in 1 Cor 7:19. Comparing these two verses:

Gal 5:6-------circumcision/uncircumcision does not avail>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but faith worketh by love
1Cor 7:19---circumcision/uncircumcision is nothing>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but keeping the commandments of God

A "faith that worketh by love" of Gal 5:6 is equivalent to "keeping the commandments of God' of Gal 5:6.

We also know that Jesus said if ye love Me, keep my commandments, Jn 14:15. So Jesus equates love with keeping His commandments.

So for a Christian to remain saved his faith must be one that WORKETH by love, that is, WORKS in keeping Christ's commandments.

The end result of these passages is that if a Christian does not do works, does not have a working faith, does not work to keep God's commandments, does not keep Christ's works unto the end (Rev 2:26) then he cannot be saved..........no works = no salvation.

(The purpose of this thread was to demonstrate that 'faith only' cannot save, that no one can be saved without works. But at the same time it is also refuting the man-made theology of eternal security. Not only must a Christian maintain good works to maintain his salvation but that he can fall away and be lost if he does not do those good works God pre-ordained the Christian to walk in. Never hurts to kill two birds with one stone.)

Arnie Manitoba · Feb 12, 2014

There is one simple way to solve this whole misunderstanding about what constitutes works and what constitutes salvation

here is what we all do .... list the individual personal "works" we do

And then Earnest T. can decide which ones of us are truly saved.

I am completely serious.

Stop telling everybody what they should be doing and tell us what you are doing

Stand up and be counted you bunch of wusses.

I am completely serious

Otherwise this argument will never end

I propose Earnest T. publish his list first

I am sure it will be a fine example and set the standard

Thank you

Secondhand Lion · Feb 12, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
"The truth" they had quit obeying was Christ's gospel truth. Christ said "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations" Rev 2:26. The verb "keepeth" being in the present tense showing an ongoing, sustained action. So there is no way possible for a Christian to not keep Christ'w works, not keep obeyng the truth and be saved....no works = no salvation

As to the Galatians, they had falsely believed they could be justified by going back to the OT law and be circumcised. Justifiication comes obeying the turth (CHrist's NT) and not by keeping the OT law. Paul tells them "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." Gal 5:6 Paul says as much in 1 Cor 7:19. Comparing these two verses:

Gal 5:6-------circumcision/uncircumcision does not avail>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but faith worketh by love
1Cor 7:19---circumcision/uncircumcision is nothing>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but keeping the commandments of God

A "faith that worketh by love" of Gal 5:6 is equivalent to "keeping the commandments of God' of Gal 5:6.

We also know that Jesus said if ye love Me, keep my commandments, Jn 14:15. So Jesus equates love with keeping His commandments.

So for a Christian to remain saved his faith must be one that WORKETH by love, that is, WORKS in keeping Christ's commandments.

The end result of these passages is that if a Christian does not do works, does not have a working faith, does not work to keep God's commandments, does not keep Christ's works unto the end (Rev 2:26) then he cannot be saved..........no works = no salvation.

(The purpose of this thread was to demonstrate that 'faith only' cannot save, that no one can be saved without works. But at the same time it is also refuting the man-made theology of eternal security. Not only must a Christian maintain good works to maintain his salvation but that he can fall away and be lost if he does not do those good works God pre-ordained the Christian to walk in. Never hurts to kill two birds with one stone.)

I have no issue with you placing works after salvation as a sign of salvation to men. This is the perspective James is talking about. It again is very plain. James is talking from man being able to tell you are saved. So from man's perspective Faith without works is indeed dead...I can completely agree. Man can not look on the heart, so how else could man tell if I am Christ's if my works do not match. If you need to believe you will lose your salvation...fine...if it helps you walk the straight and narrow...fine...but if you think you will have justification before God (who can look on the heart) with your works, I think God through Paul says you are wrong. I also think Ephesians 2:10 is being misrepresented. It does come after Ephesians 2:8-9. (another very plain statement) You and I completely agree that works should absolutely follow salvation. I do disagree that I can be "kept" by my works, but I just don't care if you need to believe it. I try to do as much good as I know how in this wretched body I live in.

Where I take the real issue with what you are saying, is that it seems you are saying, there are some works that I need to do to "get" my salvation. If you believe this, I do believe there is trouble. No matter how you want to dress it up...if I have to do anything...anything at all...then it is being said that Christ's sacrifice was not complete\sufficient\total. I ALWAYS take issue with that.

I love John 10. I aint the mostest smartest guy in the room, and sometimes I isn't 2 wise, so I must needs hang onto the very plain statements. Door (singular)....any other way? thief and robber. Those of us too stupid (I am the foremost example) to understand these higher beliefs? Thank God He knew we had to come also! He kept it simple...just for me! He did all the work completely because He knew I would mess it up! Praise the Lord, I am completely dependent on Him!

Arnie Manitoba said:
There is one simple way to solve this whole misunderstanding about what constitutes works and what constitutes salvation

here is what we all do .... list the individual personal "works" we do

And then Earnest T. can decide which ones of us are truly saved.

I am completely serious.

Stop telling everybody what they should be doing and tell us what you are doing

Stand up and be counted you bunch of wusses.

I am completely serious

Otherwise this argument will never end

I propose Earnest T. publish his list first

I am sure it will be a fine example and set the standard

Thank you

I unfortunately have no works to offer up that are equal to the finished work of Christ. My list would indeed be nonexistent compared to what He has done. How could I ever compare? I am completely dependent on HIS work. Sorry, if that makes me a "wuss".

(that made me laugh)

Arnie Manitoba · Feb 12, 2014

Secondhand Lion said:
I unfortunately have no works to offer up that are equal to the finished work of Christ. My list would indeed be nonexistent compared to what He has done. How could I ever compare? I am completely dependent on HIS work. Sorry, if that makes me a "wuss". (that made me laugh)

my list is very very short so we are equals

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 12, 2014

Arnie Manitoba said:
There is one simple way to solve this whole misunderstanding about what constitutes works and what constitutes salvation

here is what we all do .... list the individual personal "works" we do

And then Earnest T. can decide which ones of us are truly saved.

I am completely serious.

Stop telling everybody what they should be doing and tell us what you are doing

Stand up and be counted you bunch of wusses.

I am completely serious

Otherwise this argument will never end

I propose Earnest T. publish his list first

I am sure it will be a fine example and set the standard

Thank you

Diversion from the topic does not help your position. I can be the world's biggest heathen and do all kinds of evil works, but that does not change the fact that one cannot be saved without doing works. Consider the good works listed in Matthew 25 and what happens to those who do those good works and what happens to those who do not do those good works.

williemac · Feb 12, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
You posted "Therefore, works are a 'fruit' of salvation, not an assistance toward salvation. The works come afterward."

But going with what you posted here, that being, works are a fruit of salvation. So if this is true:

---can a Christian maintain his salvation without these 'fruitful works'?

If you answer 'yes' then that goes against, Eph 2:10, Matt chapter 25, Titus 2:14 among other verses.

If you answer 'no' then you are making becoming saved and remaining saved conditional upon works. And if you argue that if a Christian does not do good works and that proves he was not really saved to begin with, then how do you get one saved and remained saved WITHOUT doing works at all?

Evidently you did not bother to take the rest of my reply into consideration. It addresses all of your concerns. I am under no obligation to comply with your "yes" or "no" challange. Jesus said: He who believes in me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE.

But Jesus Also cursed a fig tree for bearing no fruit. So in a sense, we do have some indication from God that life has a demand placed on it. This demand is to bear fruit. If we call this "works", then we can say that works are necessary.

But there is a reason I brought up the subject of quantitiy and quality. While in a technical sense, works are vital in the believer's life, in a literal sense, with one exception, there is no such thing as a Christian who is completely void of them. The exception is found in the parable of the talents, where the man who was disqualified had taken the effort to dig a hole and bury the money rather than take even the simplest measure to let it produce interest. The message there is that this is about a person's willingness to submit to, and not oppose, his God given role and purpose.

But let's get one thing straight. Do you honestly think that God, who knows the hearts of all men, would grant eternal life in the first place to one who He knows has no desire to bear fruit?

The mistake is to view salvation as a future event. But I must be careful in calling this a mistake, as there is mention of a future salvation. However, it is in the context of the completion of the work He has begun in us in this life. And we have the assurance that He who has begun this work is also He who will complete it.

If we make it 'our' task to complete the work, then we become disobedient to the truth. The proper understanding is that it is our task to not oppose God, as the man who buried his talent opposed the master. But as I suggested, God already clears that up before He begins the process.

The minute we make our works a matter of a requirement to keep the life that we were freely given, we enter into an arena of doubt, disagreement, and confusion, about just how much performance in this task will be sufficient to merit justification. And therein lies the reason that justification is given by faith; to avoid this whole mess. This is why God has made salvation a matter of humility, where no one can possibly boast.

Consider 1John 5:11-13. 11And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

There is a stronghold afoot in this discussion. The flesh is tempted regularily to justify itself.

Rom.3:28..." Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith APART from the deeds of the law."

1John 5:4 "...and this is the victory that overcomes the world-OUR FAITH".

As important as our works are and our obedience is...it is equally important to keep them out of the arena of justification for life. Life is either a free gift or it is not. The bible says it is. Unless one opposes God. What we need to understand, and it is imperative that we get this: is that we oppose Him if we undermine or minimize what He accomplished in His Son at calvary. There is only One Savior.

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 12, 2014

Secondhand Lion said:
I have no issue with you placing works after salvation as a sign of salvation to men. This is the perspective James is talking about. It again is very plain. James is talking from man being able to tell you are saved. So from man's perspective Faith without works is indeed dead...I can completely agree. Man can not look on the heart, so how else could man tell if I am Christ's if my works do not match. If you need to believe you will lose your salvation...fine...if it helps you walk the straight and narrow...fine...but if you think you will have justification before God (who can look on the heart) with your works, I think God through Paul says you are wrong. I also think Ephesians 2:10 is being misrepresented. It does come after Ephesians 2:8-9. (another very plain statement) You and I completely agree that works should absolutely follow salvation. I do disagree that I can be "kept" by my works, but I just don't care if you need to believe it. I try to do as much good as I know how in this wretched body I live in.

Where I take the real issue with what you are saying, is that it seems you are saying, there are some works that I need to do to "get" my salvation. If you believe this, I do believe there is trouble. No matter how you want to dress it up...if I have to do anything...anything at all...then it is being said that Christ's sacrifice was not complete\sufficient\total. I ALWAYS take issue with that.

I love John 10. I aint the mostest smartest guy in the room, and sometimes I isn't 2 wise, so I must needs hang onto the very plain statements. Door (singular)....any other way? thief and robber. Those of us too stupid (I am the foremost example) to understand these higher beliefs? Thank God He knew we had to come also! He kept it simple...just for me! He did all the work completely because He knew I would mess it up! Praise the Lord, I am completely dependent on Him!

I unfortunately have no works to offer up that are equal to the finished work of Christ. My list would indeed be nonexistent compared to what He has done. How could I ever compare? I am completely dependent on HIS work. Sorry, if that makes me a "wuss". (that made me laugh)

The bible does not put obedient works AFTER salvation but before, consider the order of Acts 2:38 or Mk 16:16 that put obedience BEFORE salvation.

Paul in Rom 6:16 said you serve either one of two masters, you either serve:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto righteosness

I serve obedience unto righteousness. Which do you serve?

God does not just look at the heart, He will judge according to ones deeds, Rom 2:6-11.

Eph 2:8,9 does not eliminate works it includes the work of faith. And EPh 2:10 speaks of those that are already Christians, already saved. Titus 2:14 Rev 2:26 Matthew chpater 25 it is no way possible one can be saved yet have no good works.

To clarify, there are OBEDIENT works that must be done to become saved/become a Chrsitian those being one must believe, Jn 8:24, repent, Lk 13>3,5 confess, Matt 10:32,33 and be baptized for remission of sins Mk 16:16 cf Acts 2:38. After one becomes saved/a Christian then he must do GOOD works that God preordained Christians to walk in. Are you willilng to argue one can be saved yet NOT walk in those good works God preordained Chrisians to walk in? THrefore my argument is that it is no way possible for one to be saved without ever doing any work at all. You cannot show me verses that get one saved by DOING NOTHING or where one is kept saved by DOING NOTHING.

Jn 10:4 "And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice."

Jn 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:"

How can one be a sheep and not do the works of hearing and following? (“Hear” is from akouo, which signifies to listen...it denotes an obedient listening to Jesus (see J.H. Thayer, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 23).

Again, "the finished work of Christ" does not help your argument. What Christ did is sufficient to save every man yet not evey man will not be saved for every man will not obey Christ, Heb 5:9...Christ is the author of salvation to all them that obey him, not all them that do nothing.

Arnie Manitoba · Feb 13, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
Diversion from the topic does not help your position. I can be the world's biggest heathen and do all kinds of evil works, but that does not change the fact that one cannot be saved without doing works. Consider the good works listed in Matthew 25 and what happens to those who do those good works and what happens to those who do not do those good works.

Actually I am not trying to divert

My problem Is that I look a little farther and see motive

Every person I have ever met who tries to tell me I am not doing enough works is actually trying to boast how much better they are than me because I am worse than them

Got that ???

Think deep my friend , think deep.

My works , or my lack of works has absolutely no affect on them or their salvation , it is completely irrelevant ..... but they must hunt for worse Christians in order to convince themselves they are better Christians ... it comes from insecurity (weak faith) along with a pinch of pride (I'm better than you)

And besides , they never actually know me anyway .... they have no idea what I do or dont do.

I hope that makes sense , I can smell motive from a mile away.

Questor · Feb 13, 2014

[SIZE=10.5pt]Salvation is both an event AND a process.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Only because of Yeshua are we able to be saved...we unbelievers who know nothing of what we are to do when we begin.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]We hear the Word of YHVH in all of the Old Testament, and in the New Testament, in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, and all the Epistles, and in the hearing of the Word, we are given information that we can believe in:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]That Yeshua is God, and He came to earth to live a perfect human life, and then, not having sinned, He would die, and take the burden of our sins, and give us His righteousness, eternal life, and a share in His inheritance in the Kingdom to come.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]That by hearing alone, and by trusting the Word we were hearing, we would believe that we need a Savior; that Yeshua was that Savior; that He died for us; bore the curse due for our sins; then rose again; ascended into Heaven, and now sits by YHVH's side, at His right hand, in YHVH's throne, until it is time for Yeshua to return.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]That on hearing the Word, trusting that what we heard was true, and believing that Yeshua is our Redeemer, we repent of our sins, confess Yeshua haMashiach as Lord God, Savior, Redeemer, and are baptized unto righteousness in Him.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Upon that baptism, we are given the seed of faith to reside in us through the Holy Spirit, and are changed, made able to come into obedience to Yeshua, to do as He said to do, which is to Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and our neighbor as ourself.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Then we pick up our cross, and begin to walk in Yeshua's footsteps, obeying all the appropriate commandments in both the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant, even as the Holy Spirit gives us grace to do so. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]These are the works that we do, and these works bear fruit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Grace alone saves us, but upon being saved, we must respond with righteous action, good works, and obedience to YHVH.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]And he who disobeys deliberately and continuously, and turns away from righteousness, and continues to turn away from righteousness will also turn away from grace, and offend the Holy Spirit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Offending the Holy Spirit by deliberately turning away from grace and salvation by continuous and unending rebellion, disobedience and unrighteousness is the only unforgiveable sin. It takes a great deal of wickedness and unrighteousness to offend the Holy Spirit to the point where He seals you from repentance, searing your soul, and making it so that you cannot ever repent again. Among that continuous and unending rebellion, disobedience and unrighteousness [/SIZE]is the refusal to hear the Word, and to act on it.

[SIZE=10.5pt]One may always be sure that when we fall, Yeshua is giving us a hand up, and continuously help us to walk the path of righteousness by the realization of the moment of fear in which we are suddenly aware that we have sinned, for without grace, and the Word within us, we do not fear for the consequences of our rebellion and unrighteousness, and dis-obedience. The more completely we are in obedience, and walking in love, the more tender is our heart for the least sin, and for the prompting of the Holy Spirit within us to continue to repent at each mistake, pick up the fallen cross, and step back onto the path of righteousness, walking in obedience, and love. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]This is our work. Our work is to trust, and have faith in Yeshua, declare Him our Savior, to be baptized, and to walk in His footsteps, and to be obedient and to walk in love. These works bear fruit, and fruit is required of us.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Q[/SIZE]

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 13, 2014

Questor said:
[SIZE=10.5pt]Grace alone saves us, but upon being saved, we must respond with righteous action, good works, and obedience to YHVH.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]And he who disobeys deliberately and continuously, and turns away from righteousness, and continues to turn away from righteousness will also turn away from grace, and offend the Holy Spirit.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Q[/SIZE]

You do understand works are involved but "grace alone" is not how people are saved. Titus says God's grace hath appeared to all men, therefore if grace alone saves then all men would be saved. Yet all men will not be saved for Gods grace is CONDITIONAL upon man's obedience Heb 5:9>>> Eph 2:8 show salvation is a combination of God's grace and man's obedient faith.

Arnie Manitoba said:
Actually I am not trying to divert

My problem Is that I look a little farther and see motive

Every person I have ever met who tries to tell me I am not doing enough works is actually trying to boast how much better they are than me because I am worse than them

Got that ???

Think deep my friend , think deep.

My works , or my lack of works has absolutely no affect on them or their salvation , it is completely irrelevant ..... but they must hunt for worse Christians in order to convince themselves they are better Christians ... it comes from insecurity (weak faith) along with a pinch of pride (I'm better than you)

And besides , they never actually know me anyway .... they have no idea what I do or dont do.

I hope that makes sense , I can smell motive from a mile away.

The thread is not about who does what works. It is about showing one cannot be saved without doing some type of work, therefore faith only can never save anyone.

Matt 25; Rom 2:6-11 judgment is based on works so works has everything to do with where one will be in eternity. Peter's listeners in Acts 2 the jailer in Acts 16 asked what they must DO to be saved. Why was it they were not told to "DO nothing" if works have no part of salvation?

Can a new Christian never do good works and be saved, Eph 2:10; Tts 2:14, Matt 25?

williemac said:
Evidently you did not bother to take the rest of my reply into consideration. It addresses all of your concerns. I am under no obligation to comply with your "yes" or "no" challange. Jesus said: He who believes in me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE.

But Jesus Also cursed a fig tree for bearing no fruit. So in a sense, we do have some indication from God that life has a demand placed on it. This demand is to bear fruit. If we call this "works", then we can say that works are necessary.

But there is a reason I brought up the subject of quantitiy and quality. While in a technical sense, works are vital in the believer's life, in a literal sense, with one exception, there is no such thing as a Christian who is completely void of them. The exception is found in the parable of the talents, where the man who was disqualified had taken the effort to dig a hole and bury the money rather than take even the simplest measure to let it produce interest. The message there is that this is about a person's willingness to submit to, and not oppose, his God given role and purpose.

But let's get one thing straight. Do you honestly think that God, who knows the hearts of all men, would grant eternal life in the first place to one who He knows has no desire to bear fruit?

The mistake is to view salvation as a future event. But I must be careful in calling this a mistake, as there is mention of a future salvation. However, it is in the context of the completion of the work He has begun in us in this life. And we have the assurance that He who has begun this work is also He who will complete it.

If we make it 'our' task to complete the work, then we become disobedient to the truth. The proper understanding is that it is our task to not oppose God, as the man who buried his talent opposed the master. But as I suggested, God already clears that up before He begins the process.

The minute we make our works a matter of a requirement to keep the life that we were freely given, we enter into an arena of doubt, disagreement, and confusion, about just how much performance in this task will be sufficient to merit justification. And therein lies the reason that justification is given by faith; to avoid this whole mess. This is why God has made salvation a matter of humility, where no one can possibly boast.

Consider 1John 5:11-13. 11And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

There is a stronghold afoot in this discussion. The flesh is tempted regularily to justify itself.

Rom.3:28..." Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith APART from the deeds of the law."

1John 5:4 "...and this is the victory that overcomes the world-OUR FAITH".

As important as our works are and our obedience is...it is equally important to keep them out of the arena of justification for life. Life is either a free gift or it is not. The bible says it is. Unless one opposes God. What we need to understand, and it is imperative that we get this: is that we oppose Him if we undermine or minimize what He accomplished in His Son at calvary. There is only One Savior.

I narrowed down to one point you made. You have no obligation to answer any question but your unwillingness to give a yes or no answer actually speaks volumes. As I showed you position left you in a quandary. As does Rom 6:16 when I ask proponents of faith only if they serve 1) sin unto death or 2) obedience unto righteousness. Their theology rules out #2 for them leaving them between a rock and a hard place.

You post "But Jesus Also cursed a fig tree for bearing no fruit. So in a sense, we do have some indication from God that life has a demand placed on it. This demand is to bear fruit. If we call this "works", then we can say that works are necessary.

How many fruits can one bear by doing nothing? And we know what happens to unfruitful branches, Jn 15:6

Rom 3:28 Paul was saying to Jews that deeds of the OT law does not save, nowhere ever did Paul say obedience to Christ's NT does not saved, Again see Rom 6:16..which do you serve.

1 Jn 5:4 says faith, not faith only. (Faith/belief is a works, Jn 6:27-209; 1 Thess 1:3; Gal 5:6)

But none of these verses get around the fact one must do obedient works to become saved, belief repentance confession and water baptism for remission of sins....(unless one is willing to argue that an unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ lost in his unremitted sins can be saved.)

After one obeys the gospel by belief repentance confession and baptism he must do good works. Eph 2:10..no getting around what God preordained.

FHII · Feb 14, 2014

Good heavens, I've been trying NOT to respond to this thread because I've said about everything I want to say on the topic. Not only that, but also I know how set people can be in their thinking. However, there are some things that should be repeated or brought up.

First and foremost, there's the point about repentance, confession, belief, obedience and baptism (real baptism, not necessarily water baptism, which is ok) being needed on top of faith for salvation. I have no problem with that and I agree. But they are not the works that Paul so often talks about as NOT being required. Frankly, I see them as part of faith to begin with, and for the most part, the Bible bears me out on that point. That is, unless you want to pigeonhole "faith" and claim there are thick boundaries around such concepts (which I'm sure some will do)

Second, we have the concept of "good works". Yes, we are to do them. But suggesting that Mat 25 is the standard as to what "good works" is, is not entirely correct. Its an answer that is typical of someone who believes that serving God means loving everybody and helping everybody. It isn't. If you want a clear example of that, look at verse 40. Jesus was referring to helping the brethren. Not everybody. But "good works" is more than simply helping others, though it is included.

There is none good but one, and that is God. So good works are things God does. Not us. Now yes, God can do them through us, and thus we do them. However, a good work is one that benefits God. Learning of him, not forsaking the assembly (that means going to Church so you can learn of him), giving (and I mean TO GOD, that is to his chosen men -- and let me be even more direct: to the preacher!) and yes, helping and loving the brethren (who are the body of Christ, and members in particular) are prime examples of good works.

There may be other examples, but they are still going to be things that are done in service of God, and not yourself or others (with the noted exception of brethren, of course, and even then not always so). But there is plenty that it is NOT going to be. It's not going to be your lifestyle, its not going to be you quitting drinking or lusting after women or men, its not even going to be you obeying the law and staying out of jail (though faith probably won't flourish in that environment). Let me put it more plainly to you: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and our outward man has no bearing on our salvation. Not anymore.

I see Eph 2:10 being brought up as evidence that faith needs works. More specifically good works, and yes I agree with "good works" as described above. But if you are going to say, "Faith needs works" and then talk about Eph 2:10, then the 400 lb gorilla FOR YOU is the two verses above Eph 2:10 which says "For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift from God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Finally, Like I've said I have no problem with confession and repentance (things you only have to do once, by the way), being baptized into Christ and obedience to the word. The problem is that when people say, "See! See! You need works!" and you agree to that, the next step for them is to then work on your fleshly life and to get you to revert back to the Law of Moses (which we are not under) or even worse, the law of man. They'll say we are saved by grace, but you have to stop smoking, you have to stop drinking, women must wear long dresses and no makeup, and don't watch sinful movies and by all means, stay away from Las Vegas!

I ain't falling for that.

lukethreesix · Feb 14, 2014

Define salvation.
Is salvation "making it to heaven" and "escaping hell"?
Or is salvation "reigning with Christ" and "inheriting the kingdom"?

No works must be done for the first. Jesus did it all.
The latter, however, demands much!

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 14, 2014

FHII said:
Good heavens, I've been trying NOT to respond to this thread because I've said about everything I want to say on the topic. Not only that, but also I know how set people can be in their thinking. However, there are some things that should be repeated or brought up.

First and foremost, there's the point about repentance, confession, belief, obedience and baptism (real baptism, not necessarily water baptism, which is ok) being needed on top of faith for salvation. I have no problem with that and I agree. But they are not the works that Paul so often talks about as NOT being required. Frankly, I see them as part of faith to begin with, and for the most part, the Bible bears me out on that point. That is, unless you want to pigeonhole "faith" and claim there are thick boundaries around such concepts (which I'm sure some will do)

Second, we have the concept of "good works". Yes, we are to do them. But suggesting that Mat 25 is the standard as to what "good works" is, is not entirely correct. Its an answer that is typical of someone who believes that serving God means loving everybody and helping everybody. It isn't. If you want a clear example of that, look at verse 40. Jesus was referring to helping the brethren. Not everybody. But "good works" is more than simply helping others, though it is included.

There is none good but one, and that is God. So good works are things God does. Not us. Now yes, God can do them through us, and thus we do them. However, a good work is one that benefits God. Learning of him, not forsaking the assembly (that means going to Church so you can learn of him), giving (and I mean TO GOD, that is to his chosen men -- and let me be even more direct: to the preacher!) and yes, helping and loving the brethren (who are the body of Christ, and members in particular) are prime examples of good works.

There may be other examples, but they are still going to be things that are done in service of God, and not yourself or others (with the noted exception of brethren, of course, and even then not always so). But there is plenty that it is NOT going to be. It's not going to be your lifestyle, its not going to be you quitting drinking or lusting after women or men, its not even going to be you obeying the law and staying out of jail (though faith probably won't flourish in that environment). Let me put it more plainly to you: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and our outward man has no bearing on our salvation. Not anymore.

I see Eph 2:10 being brought up as evidence that faith needs works. More specifically good works, and yes I agree with "good works" as described above. But if you are going to say, "Faith needs works" and then talk about Eph 2:10, then the 400 lb gorilla FOR YOU is the two verses above Eph 2:10 which says "For by grace ye are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift from God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Finally, Like I've said I have no problem with confession and repentance (things you only have to do once, by the way), being baptized into Christ and obedience to the word. The problem is that when people say, "See! See! You need works!" and you agree to that, the next step for them is to then work on your fleshly life and to get you to revert back to the Law of Moses (which we are not under) or even worse, the law of man. They'll say we are saved by grace, but you have to stop smoking, you have to stop drinking, women must wear long dresses and no makeup, and don't watch sinful movies and by all means, stay away from Las Vegas!

I ain't falling for that.

Matt 25 is clear cut in that a Christian cannot do good works for His brethren and be saved. Jesus in the context says what a Christian does (or does not do) to the brethren is the same as doing (or not doing) for Him. And the context gives the eternal consequences for doing and not doing good works for the brethren. Matt 25 is just an example of good works a Christian is to do for his brethren, there is good works to those that are not Christians as the golden rule, love they neighbor as thyself, Gal 6:10 "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith." We have in Lk 10 the parable of the good Samaritan, Lk 10:36,37

Eph 2:9 does not contradict Eph 2:10.

1) faith itself is a work, else it is dead. So Paul would not say one is saved by the work of faith (1 Thess 1:3) and then turn around and contradict himself in the very next verse and say one is not saved by the work of faith.

2) the type of work Paul is speaking of in v10 is not the obedient work of faith but works of merit. The former saves, the latter does not. Some 25-30 years later we read about what happened at the church at Ephesus in Rev 2:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Rev 1:20 candlestick is symbolic for the church and the church at Ephesus would be removed if they did not repent and DO THE FIRST WORKS. The church at Ephesus is told "to him that overcometh Jesus will give to eat of the tree of life. Overcoming involves "keepeth My works unto the end" Rev 2:26 keepeth being a present tense verb, the works of Christ are be ongoing, sustained.

We can also see from this that repentance is not something done just once. It is something that must be ongoing, 1 Jn 1:7

But repentance is a work that must be done for one to be saved, so no works = no salvation (unless someone is willing to argue the impenitent can be saved.)

I have never suggested one is to work to keep the law of Moses to be saved, one must be obedient to Christ's NT to become saved (believe, repent, confess, submit to water baptism) and then do good works to maintain that salvation.

lukethreesix said:
Define salvation.
Is salvation "making it to heaven" and "escaping hell"?
Or is salvation "reigning with Christ" and "inheriting the kingdom"?

No works must be done for the first. Jesus did it all.
The latter, however, demands much!

Rom 5:9 "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

James 5:20 "Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from (spiritual) death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

2 Cor 2:15 "For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:" (Saved is contrasted to perish)

I see salvation can be seen as either escaping wrath, escaping spiritual death which is equivalent to making it to heaven.

What Jesus did is sufficient to save every man, Heb 2:9 so will every man be saved?

FHII · Feb 14, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
Matt 25 is clear cut in that a Christian cannot do good works for His brethren and be saved. Jesus in the context says what a Christian does (or does not do) to the brethren is the same as doing (or not doing) for Him. And the context gives the eternal consequences for doing and not doing good works for the brethren. Matt 25 is just an example of good works a Christian is to do for his brethren, there is good works to those that are not Christians as the golden rule, love they neighbor as thyself, Gal 6:10 "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith." We have in Lk 10 the parable of the good Samaritan, Lk 10:36,37

Huh???? I think you are close, but you got a weird way of wording it. Christians cannot do good works for his brethren, but Mat 25 is an example of good works a Christian is to do for his brethren? Well... I think you are close, but I'm not going to expound on it.

Ernest T. Bass · Feb 14, 2014

FHII said:
Huh???? I think you are close, but you got a weird way of wording it. Christians cannot do good works for his brethren, but Mat 25 is an example of good works a Christian is to do for his brethren? Well... I think you are close, but I'm not going to expound on it.

A Christian cannot be void of good works towards his brethren and still be saved.

williemac · Feb 14, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
You post "But Jesus Also cursed a fig tree for bearing no fruit. So in a sense, we do have some indication from God that life has a demand placed on it. This demand is to bear fruit. If we call this "works", then we can say that works are necessary.

How many fruits can one bear by doing nothing? And we know what happens to unfruitful branches, Jn 15:6

How many believers do you know are doing "nothing"? Technically, you are correct. But you are taking it to a place of intolerance. You are not talking about "no" fruit. You seem rather to be in the business of comparing yourself with others who you feel do not measure up to a certain standard, one that you obviously feel you yourself measure up to. This is not the same as faith without works. This is something else.

FHII · Feb 14, 2014

Ernest T. Bass said:
Eph 2:9 does not contradict Eph 2:10.

1) faith itself is a work, else it is dead. So Paul would not say one is saved by the work of faith (1 Thess 1:3) and then turn around and contradict himself in the very next verse and say one is not saved by the work of faith.

Of course not. But referring to faith as a work -- while not really wrong because 2 or 3 times the Bible does tell us to do the work of faith -- is a contradition. Here's why:

1. Paul so often voiced his objection to faith and works mixing. He said we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. He said that faith and works don't mix. They frustrate each other. He's clearly using the terms as opposites.

2. James (the author of the Epistle of James) is absolultely 100% when he says faith without works is dead! UNLESS he was talking about the "good works" I referred to. You, Ernest, also referred to it... But in a much smaller reference, because helping the brethren isn't the only "good work" (or maybe that's not really a good work.... Not really sure what your stance is on that....). The problem is that I'm not so sure James was speaking spiritually like Paul was.

3. The TRUTH of the matter is that faith itself must be renewed day by day. This is what Jesus meant when he taught the desciples to pray, "Give us this day our daily bread". Unless of course, you are worried about not having your toast in the morning.

Overall, if you want to call "faith" a "work" fine.... But why? Paul didn't. Yes I know he said "the work of faith" a few times (not that often). But he was clearly against works mixing with grace. But why the agenda of pushing it as a work? Why the agenda of contradicting Paul in words? Why not simply say, "folks... Grace comes through faith and not works. There's a few things and points to faith and it does take some effort (your life, really)!"

So why try to force faith and works to coexist?

williemac said:
How many believers do you know are doing "nothing"?

LOL!!! Yea.... Good question!

Ernest T. Bass said:
I have never suggested one is to work to keep the law of Moses to be saved, one must be obedient to Christ's NT to become saved (believe, repent, confess, submit to water baptism) and then do good works to maintain that salvation.

Duly noted. Never said you did. However, I suspect it. Maybe not from you, but it'll come up eventually. If not from you, someone else.

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