A Meditation On Hell

Love a God who promises to torture me if I don't?
Would that really be love, or just fear of being tortured?
I love God because He promises to put an end to the separation and pain, not continue it forever?
If sin and hatred towards God exist and remains now and always, then I serve a weak God.
My God will destroy completely the evil that exist, it will not remain anymore. Now that's a promise to hold to!

John 6:47Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

Conscious torment will not last forever. For one to be conscious, one must be alive. According to Jesus, and Gen.6:22, man is not universally designated to live (remain alive) forever. After the 1000 yr. reign of Christ, death and Hades will be tossed into the Lake of Fire. This is called the second death. This is where both body and soul are destroyed, as opposed to the first death, where merely the body dies, but not the soul. The English word 'hell' is translated from more than one Greek word. In Math.10:22, the word is "Gehenna", which is a reference to the Lake of Fire, not Hades.

Elizabeth, you said, " The soul is immortal and the body will rise again to be joined with the soul forever either in Heaven or Hell." This mean everyone has "eternal" life, Some alive forever in pain while other alive forever in paradise. Either way, both have life everlasting. This is not what the bible teaches.

You have it all wrong. The soul is immortal and the body will rise again to be joined with the soul forever either in Heaven or Hell.

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Bible quote please - but beware how you look

Elizabeth said:

How about these two?

Matthew 25:41: - "Then He shall say to them also that shall be on His left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels."

Mark 9:44: - "And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting than having two feet to be cast into hell of unquenchable fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished."

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Were you careful in how you looked Elizabeth?

Lets take your first example.

You are using this passage to prove the eternal torment of the wicked.

The problem of reading the Bible literally without understanding as you have shown causes a number of issues.

The word "everlasting" is used of a result, not a process!

1. "eternal judgment" (Heb. 6:2)
2. "eternal redemption" (Heb. 9:12)

Now, if we took your method of Bible reading I could conclude that both the coming judgement and redemption are eternal processes which are everlasting. Of course, you would be foolish to agree with me and rightly so, as you understand the result of the judgement has eternal consequences, not that the judgement is eternal, as does the redemption through Christ Jesus for obvious reasons.

Here is the kicker for you Eliabeth.

What is the "everlasting" consequence for the Wicked?

Can you show us from the Word....here are but a few; Psa. 146:3,4; Eccl. 9:5. We know the wicked are to suffer torment on their judgement day, but again this is not literal eternal torment as you sadly have been led to believe. Matt. 8:12; 13:30, 40-42, 49-50; Luke 12:47,48

This is why I asked you to look carefully.

Elizabeth said:

Mark 9:44: - "And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting than having two feet to be cast into hell of unquenchable fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished."

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Clearly you believe in a place which is perpetually on fire...if its a literal place can you describe what fuels this unquenchable fire? Is it wood? or some other substance?

Also in Rom 16:25KJV the Greek word (aionios) which you use to mean eternal or never-ending reveals it has limitations:

"Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began"

Once you understand the Scrpitures are teaching the permanent result of the punishment, rather than an ongoing process of punishing you then can be lead into truth. And what a truth it is both concerning the Kingdom of God and the Character of Almighty God.

Take 2 Thess 1:9 “Everlasting life is existence that continues without end, and everlasting death is destruction without end, that is destruction without recall, the destruction of obliteration.

Both life and death hereafter will be everlasting in the sense that both will be irreversible.” Aiōnios should be taken qualitatively and with the connotation of irreversible rather than everlasting.

Elizabeth, I hope this has helped in some way.

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Below are some Bible passages which speak to the subject of the dead.

"(Man's) breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day (moment) his thoughts perish" (Ps. 146:4).

"The dead know not anything...their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished" (Ecc. 9:5,6). There is no "wisdom in the grave" (Ecc. 9:10) - no thinking and therefore no consciousness.

Job says that on death, he would be "as though he had not been" (Job 10:18); he saw death as the oblivion, unconscious-ness and total lack of existence which we had before we were born.

Man dies as the animals do (Ecc. 3:18); if man consciously survives death somewhere, so must they, yet both Scripture and science are silent about this.

God "remembereth that we are dust. As for man, his days are as grass: as a flower of the field, so he flourisheth...it is gone; and the place thereof shall know it no more" (Ps. 103:14-16).

Hezekiah (See Isa. 38:17-19) and David (See Ps. 6:4,5; 30:9; 39:13; 115:17) are good examples of this. Death is repeatedly referred to as a sleep or rest, both for the righteous and the wicked (Job 3:11,13,17; Dan. 12:13).

But the reward of the wicked is plainly taught, which is Hell.


"Let the wicked...be silent in the grave" (sheol [Ps. 31:17]) - they will not be screaming in agony.

"God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave" (sheol [Ps.49:15]) - i.e. David's soul or body would be resurrected from the grave, or 'hell'.

This is one of the clearest teachings in Scripture...but sadly the imaginations of many have conjured up notions that find no place in the Bible.

Purity

lukethreesix said:

Love a God who promises to torture me if I don't?

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That is not the deal. The deal is... God is good and just to all. God in His goodness has given us free will. God in His justness will give to each man accordng to His deeds / choice. The devil and the fallen angels are loved by God for all eternity! But they, simply do not love Him. Wolves and lambs are separated by God. Wolves want to be wolves and they cannot live alongside lambs.

If sin and hatred towards God exist and remains now and always, then I serve a weak God.

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A God that gives true free will and tolerates the sinner for eternity is an extremely good and powerful God!

My God will destroy completely the evil that exist, it will not remain anymore. Now that's a promise to hold to!

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You make your own god. You want a god that makes you a robot?

Elizabeth said:

You have it all wrong. The soul is immortal and the body will rise again to be joined with the soul forever either in Heaven or Hell. It is the wicked who undergo two deaths - that is, first the death of the soul and then the death of the body. This death of the body and soul does not mean they will cease to exist. Rather, when the we say the soul dies we mean that it is spiritually dead, being deprived of sanctifying grace by willful and grievous sin (i.e. drunkenness, fornication, the sin of Sodom, etc.). These being the "sins unto death" of which St. John spoke. At the final judgment those who have done good will be reunited to their glorified bodies (because man is both body and soul) but those who have done evil will be reunited to bodies all corrupt and filthy, and will there receive the second death at those dreadful but most just sentence of Christ, "Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels."

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If the soul cannot die, then God cannot kill the soul. If that is the case, the advice from Jesus in Math;10:28 is.." Do not fear the one who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul (this would include God)..." Do you really think Jesus thought the soul cannot be killed (immortal)? If so, why did He say we should fear God?

However, according to the bible, the soul is not the spirit. We are body, soul, and spirit (2Thess.5:23). To say that a dead soul is only spiritually dead is a confusion. It is like saying a dead body is only spiritually dead. No, I have seen a dead body. It is called a corpse. It is a lifeless body. Death is the cessation of life. Spiritually dead would mean that the spirit is dead, not the soul or body. As well, bodily death would mean the body is dead. God is not in the business of giving us a language and then messing with the meanings of the words in that language. He is a Master communicator, not a Master of confusion.

In fact, this is the reason I quoted John 6:50,51. Whatever Jesus meant by the word "die", it was given as the alternative to "live forever". They cannot be the same. This also goes for John 3:16, where to perish cannot be the same as to have everlasting life.

The everlasting fire was prepared not for man, but for the devil and his angels. These are spiritual beings. It is quite possible and actually quite apparent, that they are eternal. Man on the other hand was denied this ability to live forever in Gen.3:21. I say we take it literally. Man will not live forever unless it is granted by God to do so. A person in forever conscious torment is alive, not dead, at least in the part of him that is conscious. That is the soul. The soul cannot be alive and dead at the same time any more than the human body can be. We don't bury live bodies. Therefore it is merely an assumption that the lake of fire will have the same effect on a man as it is designed to have on a fallen angel. Both the body and soul of a man will be destroyed there. Are we going to change the meaning of that word as well?

I have seen people give examples of words being used metaphorically and then insist that this metaphorical use is the only way the word should be understood in scripture. This would render the literal meaning of that word as pointless. The correct protocol is to examine the word in its context. Then the way we can understand if a word is being used metaphorically is if it is used in a way that the literal meaning would make no sense in the context. For example..." I am undone". Since a person cannot literally be undone, this is obviously a figure of speech. When a knot is undone, this is no figure of speech, and therefore we should not make the first example a rule of thumb. The term has an original meaning. This is all basic language 101.

The church at large is being taught that it is ok to conveniently use metaphors to support a pre determined doctrine.

Elizabeth said:

Mea culpa. "Through my fault." The eternal torment of the damned is the just result of having willfully and obstinately despised Supreme Goodness in this life by refusing to love Him. Now is the time to love Him. In Hell it will too late. Now is the time for mercy; after death, judgment. Remember, life is short and Hell is forever.


What is clear is that you've acquired only a shallow and misguided understanding of the Scriptures. You are sadly spiritually blind. It is of the faith that the pains of Hell are eternal. Jesus Christ clearly declares this in Mt. 25:41 and Mark. 9:44.

The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46). Of Judas Jesus says: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. Again, God says of the damned: "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:10; Galations 5:21), etc. The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, "De Angelis", III, viii). We merely call to mind the testimony of the martyrs who often declared that they were glad to suffer pain of brief duration in order to escape eternal torments... - Catholic Encyclopedia: Hell

To deny the immortality of the soul is no less a heresy than the denial of eternal punishment.

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Elizabeth

All you have done above is string a long list of passages together with no explanation of their depth and meaning. You follow through by assuming heresy on my part, which is often a strong sign one is out of their depth on a matter (sorry).

Read your response again and explain this is not merely special pleading on your part?

My original post is still unanswered.

Clearly your hyper literal reading of the Word is causing you some grief here.

1. Do you also believe there are eternal everlasting worms in Hell



Note: I will number my questions to you in the hope of them being answered

Purity

I treat my dogs better than your 'loving' god treats His friends. If I was confronted by such a god at my death, I would ask to leave because I would surely have wandered into Hell on accident.
I sure wish Dante had kept his comedy to himself - too many people have taken his story as scripture.

aspen said:

I treat my dogs better than your 'loving' god treats His friends. If I was confronted by such a god at my death, I would ask to leave because I would surely have wandered into Hell on accident.
I sure wish Dante had kept his comedy to himself - too many people have taken his story as scripture.

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Hi Aspen

Could you elaborate on your above comments - I havnt a clue what you are talking about i.e Dante, dogs, god etc?

No doubt you have a point its just I don't know what it is

Purity said:

Hi Aspen

Could you elaborate on your above comments - I havnt a clue what you are talking about i.e Dante, dogs, god etc?

No doubt you have a point its just I don't know what it is

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Ha! Yeah my post was pretty vague. I was speaking out against people who characterize God as an abusive parent and teach us that it is actually a good thing. And how we should worship even more so he will not damn us on a whim. My point about the dogs was that even a lowly servant of God, like myself, treats my pets better than the abusive parent god preached by some Christians - if I met that god, I would not recognize him at all.

Dante wrote about Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven in a three part poem - his depiction of Hell was so vivid that it has stuck in the minds of religious people ever since - Purgatory and Heaven were boring in comparison. I wish his imagination had not gotten away from him because the poem has done more harm that good.

My point is that the God I know is sovereign - not insecure, bully-sovereign. He doesnt display His power by damning people, left and right - instead his power is shown in His mercy and long suffering.

Amen Aspen. AMEN!

Guys you just don't get it. God will not force anyone to be in heaven. Now how is a God that does, good?

You don't believe the devil and humans are evil?

Lambs and wolves will NOT live together!

Anyone who believes God tortures people that person does not know God. Their god is ink on paper and they have not the Holy Spirit teaching them, but the doctrines of men. The same spirit lives in them as did the disciples in Luke 9:54-55. The god of the church makes Hitler look like a saint. WWJT Who Would Jesus Torture? No one! EVER! Jesus is the GOD of Exodus 34:6, a God of compassion and favor, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and faithfulness.

That God is good, there is no argument. But being slow to anger does not mean anger does not come. That is simply wishful thinking and not reading what is written.

Suggesting it to any in sin is putting their blood on your hands.

Why do you think scripture says 'it pleased God to bruise Jesus'?