A Meditation On Hell

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lukethreesix

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Slow to anger, not abundant in anger. Abundant in loving-kindness! Eternal torture would qualify as abundant in anger, but as the psalmist said, "Gods anger is but a moment, His mercy abideth forever"...His anger does not abide forever! His Grace and Mercy Does!!!! Praise YAH
 

UppsalaDragby

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lukethreesix said:
Slow to anger, not abundant in anger. Abundant in loving-kindness! Eternal torture would qualify as abundant in anger, but as the psalmist said, "Gods anger is but a moment, His mercy abideth forever"...His anger does not abide forever! His Grace and Mercy Does!!!! Praise YAH
"Sing to the LORD, you saints of his; praise his holy name. For his anger lasts only a moment, but his favor lasts a lifetime; weeping may remain for a night, but rejoicing comes in the morning."
 

lukethreesix

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What kind of "justice" is it, to torture someone for eternity after they have been tortured all their life? You know not the meaning of Justice. What kind of sick doctrine teaches that 6,000,000 Jews who were tortured by Hitler, will for all eternity, wish they were still being tortured by Hitler because, "what Hitler did is nothing compared to the horror the God of Love has waiting for them." Sick! Pure sickness!!!
 

Purity

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Elizabeth, I am waiting for your explanation on the "worms that never die"...are there immortal worms in your fiery place of torture?

Or have you not understood the context of Jesus' teaching? :rolleyes:

Purity
 
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Elizabeth

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williemac said:
If the soul cannot die, then God cannot kill the soul. If that is the case, the advice from Jesus in Math;10:28 is.." Do not fear the one who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul (this would include God)..." Do you really think Jesus thought the soul cannot be killed (immortal)? If so, why did He say we should fear God?
"But I see I must speak a little more carefully of the nature of death," says Saint Augustine. He continues, "For although the human soul is truly affirmed to be immortal, yet it also has a certain death of its own. For it is therefore called immortal, because, in a sense, it does not cease to live and to feel; while the body is called mortal, because it can be forsaken of all life, and cannot by itself live at all. The death, then, of the soul takes place when God forsakes it, as the death of the body when the soul forsakes it. Therefore the death of both—that is, of the whole man—occurs when the soul, forsaken by God, forsakes the body. For, in this case, neither is God the life of the soul, nor the soul the life of the body. And this death of the whole man is followed by that which, on the authority of the divine oracles, we call the second death. This the Savior referred to when He said, “Fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” And since this does not happen before the soul is so joined to its body that they cannot be separated at all, it may be matter of wonder how the body can be said to be killed by that death in which it is not forsaken by the soul, but, being animated and rendered sensitive by it, is tormented. For in that penal and everlasting punishment, of which in its own place we are to speak more at large, the soul is justly said to die, because it does not live in connection with God; but how can we say that the body is dead, seeing that it lives by the soul? For it could not otherwise feel the bodily torments which are to follow the resurrection. Is it because life of every kind is good, and pain an evil, that we decline to say that that body lives, in which the soul is the cause, not of life, but of pain? The soul, then, lives by God when it lives well, for it cannot live well unless by God working in it what is good; and the body lives by the soul when the soul lives in the body, whether itself be living by God or no. For the wicked man’s life in the body is a life not of the soul, but of the body, which even dead souls—that is, souls forsaken of God—can confer upon bodies, how little so-ever of their own proper life, by which they are immortal, they retain. But in the last damnation, though man does not cease to feel, yet because this feeling of his is neither sweet with pleasure nor wholesome with repose, but painfully penal, it is not without reason called death rather than life. And it is called the second death because it follows the first, which sunders the two cohering essences, whether these be God and the soul, or the soul and the body. Of the first and bodily death, then, we may say that to the good it is good, and evil to the evil. But, doubtless, the second, as it happens to none of the good, so it can be good for none. "
Purity said:
Elizabeth, I am waiting for your explanation on the "worms that never die"...are there immortal worms in your fiery place of torture?
What God has declared concerning the eternal torments of the damned shall come to pass. Do not deceive yourself lest you find yourself in eternity, crying out with the rich man, "I am tormented in this flame" (Lk. 16:24). He is tormented by an unquenchable fire and his soul is gnawed by a worm of anguish. As the earthy Father of the Church explains, "in a body thus tormented the soul also is tortured with a fruitless repentance." Because in eternity repentance will come too late.
lukethreesix said:
What kind of "justice" is it, to torture someone for eternity after they have been tortured all their life?...Sick! Pure sickness!!!
Saint Francis of Assisi used to cry out in the streets, "Love is not loved!" A saint once rightly observed that the greater part of men will set no value on the blood of Christ, but will continue to offend Him. Who can say without blaspheming that it is unjust for God to condemn criminals to hell? And yet does He really condemn them to Hell or is it more accurate to say they condemn themselves to Hell by preferring the slavery of the devil to the sweet yoke of the Lord? "Be not deceived: God is not mocked." Yet He would be mocked if the wicked could go on offending Him, and afterwards escape their just punishments.
 

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Elizabeth said:
"But I see I must speak a little more carefully of the nature of death," says Saint Augustine. He continues, "For although the human soul is truly affirmed to be immortal, yet it also has a certain death of its own. For it is therefore called immortal, because, in a sense, it does not cease to live and to feel; while the body is called mortal, because it can be forsaken of all life, and cannot by itself live at all. The death, then, of the soul takes place when God forsakes it, as the death of the body when the soul forsakes it. Therefore the death of both—that is, of the whole man—occurs when the soul, forsaken by God, forsakes the body. For, in this case, neither is God the life of the soul, nor the soul the life of the body. And this death of the whole man is followed by that which, on the authority of the divine oracles, we call the second death. This the Savior referred to when He said, “Fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” And since this does not happen before the soul is so joined to its body that they cannot be separated at all, it may be matter of wonder how the body can be said to be killed by that death in which it is not forsaken by the soul, but, being animated and rendered sensitive by it, is tormented. For in that penal and everlasting punishment, of which in its own place we are to speak more at large, the soul is justly said to die, because it does not live in connection with God; but how can we say that the body is dead, seeing that it lives by the soul? For it could not otherwise feel the bodily torments which are to follow the resurrection. Is it because life of every kind is good, and pain an evil, that we decline to say that that body lives, in which the soul is the cause, not of life, but of pain? The soul, then, lives by God when it lives well, for it cannot live well unless by God working in it what is good; and the body lives by the soul when the soul lives in the body, whether itself be living by God or no. For the wicked man’s life in the body is a life not of the soul, but of the body, which even dead souls—that is, souls forsaken of God—can confer upon bodies, how little so-ever of their own proper life, by which they are immortal, they retain. But in the last damnation, though man does not cease to feel, yet because this feeling of his is neither sweet with pleasure nor wholesome with repose, but painfully penal, it is not without reason called death rather than life. And it is called the second death because it follows the first, which sunders the two cohering essences, whether these be God and the soul, or the soul and the body. Of the first and bodily death, then, we may say that to the good it is good, and evil to the evil. But, doubtless, the second, as it happens to none of the good, so it can be good for none. "

What God has declared concerning the eternal torments of the damned shall come to pass. Do not deceive yourself lest you find yourself in eternity, crying out with the rich man, "I am tormented in this flame" (Lk. 16:24). He is tormented by an unquenchable fire and his soul is gnawed by a worm of anguish. As the earthy Father of the Church explains, "in a body thus tormented the soul also is tortured with a fruitless repentance." Because in eternity repentance will come too late.

Saint Francis of Assisi used to cry out in the streets, "Love is not loved!" A saint once rightly observed that the greater part of men will set no value on the blood of Christ, but will continue to offend Him. Who can say without blaspheming that it is unjust for God to condemn criminals to hell? And yet does He really condemn them to Hell or is it more accurate to say they condemn themselves to Hell by preferring the slavery of the devil to the sweet yoke of the Lord? "Be not deceived: God is not mocked." Yet He would be mocked if the wicked could go on offending Him, and afterwards escape their just punishments.
So is God asking us to be mocked when we turn the other cheek? Seems hard to believe He would ask us to behave more morally than Himself....

The state of Hell is much worse than the place. People are sanctifying themselves for the state of Hell - thankfully, we have another option because of Gods love for us. He takes no pleasure in throwing people into a fiery pit forever - based on His character, it seems more likely that He will be weeping on Judgment Day because of the terminal illness called The State of Hell, which will afflict some of His creation
 

Purity

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Elizabeth said:
What God has declared concerning the eternal torments of the damned shall come to pass. Do not deceive yourself lest you find yourself in eternity, crying out with the rich man, "I am tormented in this flame" (Lk. 16:24). He is tormented by an unquenchable fire and his soul is gnawed by a worm of anguish. As the earthy Father of the Church explains, "in a body thus tormented the soul also is tortured with a fruitless repentance." Because in eternity repentance will come too late.
So you believe these eternal torments are the abode of immortal worms which feed on what? Gods immortal soul?

Elizabeth, I don't know if you appreciate how far from truth you are on this subject? For instance, you say "He is tormented by an unquenchable fire and his soul is gnawed by a worm of anguish" but Luke 16:24 does not mention soul anywhere? It mentions body parts but no ethereal soulish nonsense to which you infer. Where in Luke 16 are worms of anguish?

You have some issues to reconcile in your understanding:
  1. The passage speaks about bodies not souls. E.g., eyes, bosom (Luke 16:23) tip of finger and tongue (Luke 16:24).
  2. Souls are said to be immaterial (the material body being left in the grave), how then could Lazarus (if really a soul) be carried by angels? (Luke 16:22).
  3. The passage states that there was a great gulf fixed between Abraham and the rich man, yet they could both see and converse with each other (Luke 16:26). Is the great gulf to be taken literally?
  4. Is heaven literally a place where conversations can be carried on between those enjoying bliss and those agonizing in hell?
  5. How could Lazarus go literally to Abraham's bosom? Abraham (as now) was unquestionably dead and without his reward. (Heb. 11:8, 13, 39, 40).
Elizabeth, you cannot use RCC dogma with all their ungodly notions against careful reading of Gods Word.

Its a slippery path you are on.

Purity
 

Elizabeth

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Purity said:
So you believe these eternal torments are the abode of immortal worms which feed on what? Gods immortal soul?
I believe that after the General Judgment the damned will suffer eternal torments in both body and soul. I believe the "worm that dieth not" is the tormented conscience of the condemned soul owing to a fruitless repentance.


Concerning the rich man, since you deny the eternal punishment of the damned, where do you believe the rich man was when he exclaimed, "I am tormented in this flame"? Do you believe that he was lying when he said he is tormented? And, if not Hell, where is his place of torment?

Concerning your needless attack on my faith and the Roman Catholic Church. First of all, it is a great blasphemy refer to Church Jesus established or His revealed truths (i.e. dogmas) as "ungodly." Secondly, your rejection of the eternal punishment of wicked men (Matt. 25:41; Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10 etc.) is an open rejection of God's Word. Thirdly, do you know the answers to your own questions concerning Lazarus and the rich man? These can readily be answered with the truth but seeing you have so enthusiastically committed yourself to rejecting the truth, of what use is it to continue with you? 2 Thess. 2:10

I would like to share the following with those who may be interested.

Chapter 23.—Against Those Who are of Opinion that the Punishment Neither of the Devil Nor of Wicked Men Shall Be Eternal.

First of all, it behoves us to inquire and to recognize why the Church has not been able to tolerate the idea that promises cleansing or indulgence to the devil even after the most severe and protracted punishment. For so many holy men, imbued with the spirit of the Old and New Testament, did not grudge to angels of any rank or character that they should enjoy the blessedness of the heavenly kingdom after being cleansed by suffering, but rather they perceived that they could not invalidate nor evacuate the divine sentence which the Lord predicted that He would pronounce in the judgment, saying, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”For here it is evident that the devil and his angels shall burn in everlasting fire. And there is also that declaration in the Apocalypse, “The devil their deceiver was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also are the beast and the false prophet. And they shall be tormented day and night for ever.” In the former passage “everlasting” is used, in the latter “for ever;” and by these words Scripture is wont to mean nothing else than endless duration. And therefore no other reason, no reason more obvious and just, can be found for holding it as the fixed and immovable belief of the truest piety, that the devil and his angels shall never return to the justice and life of the saints, than that Scripture, which deceives no man, says that God spared them not, and that they were condemned beforehand by Him, and cast into prisons of darkness in hell, being reserved to the judgment of the last day, when eternal fire shall receive them, in which they shall be tormented world without end. And if this be so, how can it be believed that all men, or even some, shall be withdrawn from the endurance of punishment after some time has been spent in it? how can this be believed without enervating our faith in the eternal punishment of the devils? For if all or some of those to whom it shall be said, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels,”are not to be always in that fire, then what reason is there for believing that the devil and his angels shall always be there? Or is perhaps the sentence of God, which is to be pronounced on wicked men and angels alike, to be true in the case of the angels, false in that of men? Plainly it will be so if the conjectures of men are to weigh more than the word of God. But because this is absurd, they who desire to be rid of eternal punishment ought to abstain from arguing against God, and rather, while yet there is opportunity, obey the divine commands. Then what a fond fancy is it to suppose that eternal punishment means long continued punishment, while eternal life means life without end, since Christ in the very same passage spoke of both in similar terms in one and the same sentence, “These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal!” If both destinies are “eternal,” then we must either understand both as long-continued but at last terminating, or both as endless. For they are correlative,—on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end.- St. Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church
 

williemac

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Elizabeth said:
I believe that after the General Judgment the damned will suffer eternal torments in both body and soul. I believe the "worm that dieth not" is the tormented conscience of the condemned soul owing to a fruitless repentance.

Concerning the rich man, since you deny the eternal punishment of the damned, where do you believe the rich man was when he exclaimed, "I am tormented in this flame"? Do you believe that he was lying when he said he is tormented? And, if not Hell, where is his place of torment?
I will give you some advice. It would be profitable for you if you allow yourself to listen to what the scripture says regardless of what your religious affiliation is telling you to believe.

You make a good point about the rich man. Yes, his soul was alive and in Hades, and he was tormented (not tortured, as some call it). But our language is weak, in that our translators used "hell" for more than one original language word.

So then, In Math 10:28, "hell" comes from Gehenna. This was actually the name of a local garbage dump in their day. As was the custom then, and even until recent history, refuse was taken to places such as this to be burned and destroyed. It is agreed upon by bible scholars that Jesus used this word to describe the Lake of Fire, and not Hades.

So in Math.10:28, we have two scenarios of death described by jesus. In the first one, the body dies but not the soul. This is how we find men like the rich man alive in torment. However, after the 1000 year reign of Christ, there will be another death called the second death, which will come after the Great White Throne judgment. It is said that death and Hades will be thrown into this lake of fire. This is what Jesus meant by "Gehenna". This is where BOTH body and soul will be destroyed.

Now, you can quote any of your mentors all you want. They are not infallable. The bible is our final authority. And in Isaiah 66:24 is where we find the first mention of a worm not dying. Here is the full verse:
" And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh"

Note the word "for". For their worm does not die. Have you ever seen a corpse? It is a lifeless, dead, body. However, come back in 20 years or so and see if it looks the same. They decay and rot, and are eaten by maggots, etc., and if they are in fire, they will be burned to ashes. However, this would make it impossible for anyone to gaze upon the corpse as a remembrance, so God has decreed that the corpse will not decay, rot, or be consumed by the fire. These coprses will remain in a perpetual state of death without decay. For how long? Forever. The punishment of death is everlasting, with no chance of ever being reversed, no chance of any resurrection. Therefore it is an everlasting punishment. The permanency of this is indicated by the worm not dying, nor the fire being quenched.

Now, you might well concede that this is what happens to the body, while the soul remains alive. However, in Math.10:28, Jesus says different. He claims that BOTH body and soul will suffer the same fate. Don't forget, this passage is about death, and whether or not the soul can be killed. Jesus said don't fear the one who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul.

But in this nasty stronghold of a doctrine, men have concocted an excuse that while a soul can indeed die, it is not really dead. They say that this is not a real death, but rather just a figure of speech.

So let's put this interpretaion into Math.10:28 and see how it looks. Don't fear the one who can literally kill the body but cannot literally kill the soul, but rather fear Him who can literally kill the body and can "figuratively" but not literally, kill the soul. Your going to tell me that Jesus changed the meaning of death in mid sentence? So neither man nor God can 'literally' kill the soul? Then as Jesus suggested, don't fear either. This "immortal soul" business is a huge, huge issue that needs to be corrected.

But rather than focus on vague and hard to prove passages, why don't we revert back to what Jesus said in John 6:50,51? He said that not everyone will live forever, and not die. That should be as plain as our noses. But apparently, some people have no nose, to smell out the truth.
 

lukethreesix

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Elizabeth said, " For they are correlative,—on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end.- St. Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church

The only thing Augustine ever got right was when he said "the church is a whore"....
Aionios (eternal/everlasting) is the adjective. Just as a BIG mouse and a BIG house are both described as BIG, does not mean they are equal in size. Neither does AIONIOS punishment mean that it is of equal duration as AIONIOS life. Mouse and house are two very different things, they can both be BIG but not equal. LIFE and PUNISHMENT are two very different things, even though they both can be described with the same adjective does NOT make them equal.

Know God. Learn His character. His punishment is ALWAYS corrective! ALWAYS!!!
 

williemac

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lukethreesix said:
Elizabeth said, " For they are correlative,—on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end.- St. Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church

The only thing Augustine ever got right was when he said "the church is a whore"....
Aionios (eternal/everlasting) is the adjective. Just as a BIG mouse and a BIG house are both described as BIG, does not mean they are equal in size. Neither does AIONIOS punishment mean that it is of equal duration as AIONIOS life. Mouse and house are two very different things, they can both be BIG but not equal. LIFE and PUNISHMENT are two very different things, even though they both can be described with the same adjective does NOT make them equal.

Know God. Learn His character. His punishment is ALWAYS corrective! ALWAYS!!!
Great post. Some things worth thinking about.
However, I prefer my version, which is that the term eternal punishment does not tell us anything about the NATURE of the punishment, but merely the duration. For example, if the nature of the punishment is to be spanked, then one would expect to be spanked eternally. However, this is called the second death. The wages of sin is death, the punishment described with words such as death, destruction, perish. Therefore if death is the naure of the punishment, then it is permanent (eternal), with no chance of coming back to life. This would correctly be called an eternal or everlasting punishment. I see that many people are not willing to admit that they are making a huge assumption that the term implies one being conscious forever so that he consciously experiences being punished forever. This would only be true if the nature of the punishment is incarceration. If that were the case, then why would God choose to use deceiving descriptions such as perish, destroy, die?

And BTW, God's chastening is always corrective. There are two words in scripture that appear similar: chastisement, and chastening. In looking up these words, I have found that they do not mean the same thing whatsoever. Chastisement is punishment for wrongdoing. Hence, "the wages of sin is death". Chastening is harsh correction for the purpose of moral improvement.
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him (Jesus) (Is.53:5). The shedding of blood has nothing to do with correction, my friend.
 

lukethreesix

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Willie Mac, I think your version is better than the churches but not as good as what God has planed for His creation.

Jonah chapter 2 (KJV), ....after Jonah's rebellion against God, he is swallowed up into the abyss (Sheol, Hell, the Pit). Why? For correction and repentance. How Long? Jonah says he was there "forever" (Olam) in verse 6, but it took only 3 days. This word "olam" is the same word used in Daniel 12:2, that Jesus quotes in Matt 25:46. All throughout the OT it is translated "everlasting". Jonah was not everlastingly in Hell (vs 2 KJV), but would be there AS LONG AS it took for repentance and correction to take place. Aionios is the NT version of Olam, it does NOT literally mean "time without end" but rather an "unknown duration of time".

Gods punishment of the rebellious will last as long as it takes for that person to fall on their knees in repentance, submitting themselves to Gods will and His ways (Ps 25:8, because God is good, He will teach sinners the way. Ps 1:6, the way of the wicked will perish.)
Gods will is for all to come to repentance, and is not willing that any perish. Is He not both able and willing to do so? Every knee will bow and worship God. Yes, our ways will perish and all will be taught HIS WAY!
 

Purity

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I believe that after the General Judgment the damned will suffer eternal torments in both body and soul. I believe the "worm that dieth not" is the tormented conscience of the condemned soul owing to a fruitless repentance.
Hold on Elizabeth!

The everlasting and unquenchable fire is literal but the worm is figurative.

Convenient.
I will give you some advice. It would be profitable for you if you allow yourself to listen to what the scripture says regardless of what your religious affiliation is telling you to believe.
Does Elizabeth possess the humility to receive your good advice?

Supernatural images of demons and devils is nowhere found in the Word of God but the RCC has filled little Children as Elizabeth once was with all forms of ungodly notions. The judgements Yahweh will pass on this organisation will be profound for causing Elizabeth such an offence.

The millstone is coming! But its not a literal Millstone ;)
that Jesus quotes in Matt 25:46. All throughout the OT it is translated "everlasting". Jonah was not everlastingly in Hell
His hell was a watery grave but thankfully he repented and came to his right mind.