Context! Context! Context!

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Wormwood

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lukethreesix said:
Ok, I started this thread talking about Acts 1.20, claiming Peter took Psalms 69 OUT OF CONTEXT and going back and reading it again there is no doubt!
Psalm 69 (in context) is obviously David crying out to Yahweh for help against his enemies. But, as we all know this psalm is prophesying about Christ. In verse 3+4 we see it clearly describing Christs' suffering, but in verse 5 says God knew his folly and wrong-doings? Did Christ have folly and wrong-doings? NO! So can we just remove this verse from which is now the context of Christ? Verse 9, again we have Christ and his "zeal for his fathers house".
and now verse 25 that Peter quotes in Acts 1:20, IN CONTEXT it is CLEARLY the enemies encampment that is to become desolate, NOT the followers of the Annointed? So not only does Peter take this out of context once but twice!
YES, the Holy Spirit reveals the true meaning of scripture many times OUT OF CONTEXT. If we keep scripture only within context we could not find the hidden treasures.
lukethreesix,

David was a foreshadowing of Christ. He was not the Christ. The typological use of the Psalms as predictive of Christ are just that: typological. They are not "out of context" but are viewed in terms of types and shadows. Moses was a type of Christ. He led people out of slavery, through water, to freedom to be sustained by God in the wilderness. So Jesus leads us out of slavery to sin. In baptism we pass out of slavery and are sustained by the manna that is Christ and the water from the rock which is also Christ. These things are types... One points to the fulfillment in Jesus. Yes, David was a sinner and Jesus was not. No one is saying David was Jesus. The idea is that David is a foreshadowing...and imperfect image of the perfect work of God in Christ. Thus, the suffering and betrayal David faced was an image of what God was going to do in Jesus. Does that make sense?

Dadad,

One thing "scholars" do is engage in dialogue and understand that their perspective is not the only one. That is why they write, read, quote one another and have conferences and learn from each other. Something you seem entirely unwilling to do. Scholars don't imply that all others are completely backwards and that they alone hold the keys to the truth. They don't say things, like "I'm sure no one else could possibly understand this" or "come listen to me and I will give you the CORRECT view" or "Scripture and I agree" (as if everyone else is bent on disagreeing with Scripture). I am simply unwilling to explore your wild interpretations that you have already showed me in the past are laced with numerology and all other kinds of far-fetched hermeneutical methods.
 

John 8:32

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If understanding scripture is simply "keeping it in context", then why did Jesus have to "open the eyes" of the disciples in order for them to understand? Peter, in Acts 1:20, takes scripture way out of context! He takes half of two different psalms and paste them together as one. If He kept these in context there is no way he could have got Judas out of it, unless his eyes were opened and taught by the Spirit how to take scripture OUT OF CONTEXT! Context is important to a point, but its not as important as knowing how to take scripture out of context.
It is not just context, it is also calling, God calls whom He will...

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

All are NOT called today. This is not the only day of salvation as the "Great Controversy" doctrine of the SDAs teaches.
 

lukethreesix

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Wormwood, what do you do with verse 25? "Let THEIR encampment..." who is the "their" IN CONTEXT? It is the enemieswhich "hate without a cause". This MUST be taken OUT OF CONTEXT to mean "their" as the disciples. And again in verse 28, let not THEIR names be written in the book of life, again this is THE ENEMIES, not the disciples, so we have to go back and forth taking one verse out of context to mean the disciples and then back again to mean the enemies?
 

DaDad

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Wormwood said:
Dadad,

One thing "scholars" do is engage in dialogue and understand that their perspective is not the only one. That is why they write, read, quote one another and have conferences and learn from each other. Something you seem entirely unwilling to do. Scholars don't imply that all others are completely backwards and that they alone hold the keys to the truth. They don't say things, like "I'm sure no one else could possibly understand this" or "come listen to me and I will give you the CORRECT view" or "Scripture and I agree" (as if everyone else is bent on disagreeing with Scripture). I am simply unwilling to explore your wild interpretations that you have already showed me in the past are laced with numerology and all other kinds of far-fetched hermeneutical methods.

Hi Wormwood,

For someone who argues for all perspectives, you certainly have asserted your denial of J.R. Church's (Host of PROPHECY IN THE NEWS) premise as outlined in his book "Hidden Prophecies in the Psalms". Have you read this 19th Book (for the 1900s) Chapter for year to refute the apparent prophecies: Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1948 International recognition of the Nation of Israel? Or how about Book 19, Chapter 44 = 1944 Holocaust (see verses 11 & 22)?

And of course, I would argue that the Daniel 9 "going forth of the word to establish and rebuild Jerusalem" is provided in Scripture (Psalms 24) exactly as Edward Young suggests:

[SIZE=12pt]"This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God."[/SIZE]


So where you state that you are "unwilling to explore" Scripture and History, I would suggest that we should not fear searching GOD's TRUTH.

1 Cor 14:29
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge. 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.



With Best Regards,
DD
 

Wormwood

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“Answer me, O Lord, for your steadfast love is good; according to your abundant mercy, turn to me. Hide not your face from your servant; for I am in distress; make haste to answer me. Draw near to my soul, redeem me; ransom me because of my enemies! You know my reproach, and my shame and my dishonor; my foes are all known to you. Reproaches have broken my heart, so that I am in despair. I looked for pity, but there was none, and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me sour wine to drink. Let their own table before them become a snare; and when they are at peace, let it become a trap. Let their eyes be darkened, so that they cannot see, and make their loins tremble continually. Pour out your indignation upon them, and let your burning anger overtake them. May their camp be a desolation; let no one dwell in their tents. For they persecute him whom you have struck down, and they recount the pain of those you have wounded. Add to them punishment upon punishment; may they have no acquittal from you. Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous. But I am afflicted and in pain; let your salvation, O God, set me on high!” (Psalm 69:16–29, ESV)

I think the Psalm here is clearly talking about the enemies of Christ. Those who would not pity and instead sought to destroy him. The enemies would have no place. Because Judas was a betrayer and enemy of Christ, there would be no place for him.

For wicked and deceitful mouths are opened against me, speaking against me with lying tongues. They encircle me with words of hate, and attack me without cause. In return for my love they accuse me, but I give myself to prayer. So they reward me evil for good, and hatred for my love. Appoint a wicked man against him; let an accuser stand at his right hand. When he is tried, let him come forth guilty; let his prayer be counted as sin! May his days be few; may another take his office!” (Psalm 109:2–8, ESV)
Again, referring to the wicked that have deceived and attacked innocence. This happened to David as a foreshadowing of what would happen to Jesus. The cry is for those who abuse this innocence to have a short life and their office replaced. Just as those who attacked the innocence of David deserved to have their office replaced, how much is this true with Jesus since David foreshadowed Jesus.

Dadad,

I don't recall saying I argue all perspectives. In fact, I argue against a lot of perspectives on this site. I don't fear searching God's TRUTH. I search it all the time and I have yet to find JR Church there. The word is plain and I don't need someone to provide "hidden" answers through non-contextual Scripture-hopping and numerology.
 

DaDad

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Wormwood said:
I don't need someone to provide "hidden" answers through non-contextual Scripture-hopping and numerology.
Hi Wormwood,

So, without J.R. Church's assistance (Host of PROPHECY IN THE NEWS), have you read the Psalms in context with the events of the 1900's, Chapter for year? And if so, did you read the Psalms typical of: Book 19, Chapter 44 = 1944 regarding the Holocaust (see verses 11 & 22); Book 19, Chapter 48 = 1948 International recognition of the Nation of Israel; Book 19, Chapter 91 Desert Storm? And in doing so, did you judge the Prophecy as Scripture demands?

1 Cor 14:29
Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.


Or, did you summarily discount a potential end-time message from GOD?


With Best Regards,
DD
 

Wormwood

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Well, I think there is a bit of irony in that statement. Not unlike Matt. 22:12. Jesus is heightening the depth of the betrayal by his reference to Judas as a friend. In any event, its clear that Judas was a betrayer and an enemy of Christ though Jesus had done him no wrong.
 

Floyd

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There is no doubt that most teaching of Scripture is "out of context".
Miles Coverdale the great English Translater summarised this in his famous comment:

"It will greatly help understanding of Scripture to see what is spoken or written, by whom, to whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what goes before and what follows."

He was supremely qualified to make such comment, having translated from the Latin (Jerome,) to the English.

Much persecution has taken place due to dogmatic interpretation of Scripture for wrong reasons; witness the Roman Church and the persecution of early Protesters in "the Inquisition"1

The early reformers and Bible translators suffered much martyrdom as they wrested the Bible from the Latin into common English and other European languages, away from the Roman church in Europe. Martin Luther himself was the subject of assassination attempts by the Roman church,
but was protected by a rich and powerful sympathiser.

Predudise is still evident and growing as the end of this Age approaches!

A case in point is the fact of the "Mystery Church" which Paul expounded after the final rejection of Christ Jesus at tne end of Acts.

Acts 4.12





Acts 4:12: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved".



In context the "name" referred to is Jesus the Christ! The statement by the Holy Spirit (the 3rd person) in the Bible supports the concepts both of the only way of Salvation; in this present Age, (the Age of Grace) and the 2nd Person of the Trinity!

The 1st Person of the Trinity is shown in many Old Testament (OT), statements of Almighty God, in particular:



Isaiah 45:22: "Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am GOD, and there is none else".

Here, God (Jehovah of the Jews; the 1st Person), affirms His Unique Status as the only God in existence; and, that He is not to be confused with the many false gods in the world, all originating in the great pretender; SATAN!

This is emphasised in Isa. 45:5; I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no 'God beside Me', and many other places in Scripture.



The reason for starting this paper with the above absolute statements, is that many people and Groups are saying the opposite, and, that has been the plan of Satan from the beginning of his demise, when as the "anointed Cherub, Ezk. 28:14, he challenged God; and fell from Grace"!

Over many "Ages"; (Administrations) since, he has been allowed by Almighty God to try his best (worst) to bring "Creation" under his control; and in these "last times" of this Age; he has accelerated his efforts! See: http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Satan's%20Motivation.htm



Ezek. 28:1:19 describes the origin of these problems, where the Entity called the “King of Tyre” is the type, of the antitype Satan! This is made clear in verse 15, showing that the antitype “was created”, by God!

In verse 14, again reference is made to the supernatural, where Satan was “anointed” the covering cherub, for perhaps a previous Creation (2 Peter 3:6), or the Garden of Eden, v13 (Dr. Bullinger page 1146 CB).

It should be noted here that in verse14, the word translated “art” should be “wast” ie; “were”, so it should read, “you were the anointed Cherub”, denoting the fall of Satan from the Grace of God; and the reasons are given in verses 2, 5, 6, 15, 17, 18.

In the following two verses, are statements by Almighty God which are from Eternity to Eternity!

John 1:1.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”.

Ephesians 1:10.

“That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him”.

These show that Almighty God in Christ Jesus has a Plan for the undoing of the works of Satan, after his fall from God’s Grace, as described above.

The First Stage, Adam and Eve.

The scene is set in the Garden of Eden as described in the well known passages of Genesis, describing the creation of Adam and Eve. The narrative then describes their fall from Grace, after the tempting of Eve, by Satan’s perversion of the Word of God (Gen. 3:3-5), given to Adam by God, (Gen. 2:16-17); which was believed and acted on by both of them. So; at the very beginning of this creation, mankind fell into sin by the perversion of the Word of God by Satan, and their overt acceptance of that perversion!

God brought to an end that Age, (period of time), by the Flood described in Genesis 7, allowing only Noah and his family to remain alive of all the peoples since Eden, so as to eventually fulfil His promise in Genesis 3:15!

The Second Stage, Jacob/Israel- The Nation.

In Genesis 12 is described the calling of Abram out from his homeland of Ur of the Chaldees, leaving his family and relatives, to a land “that I will show thee”, said God Almighty!

Later, when both he and his wife Sarai were old, and well past child bearing age, they had a son (as had been promised by God), named Isaac, and at the same time his name was changed by God to Abraham, which means father of a multitude, or many nations, Gen.17:4, and Sarai’s name was changed to Sarah (princess).

The child Isaac had been promised many years earlier, as had also the boundaries of the future Promised Land (Gen.15:18), which has not yet been fulfilled. The “sign” for all of Abraham’s descendants of the promises made by God to him, especially of the boundaries of their future land is circumcision on the 8th day after birth of all male children (Gen.17:10) and is meant as a constant reminder of God’s Promises!

Although Abraham had other wives and children, especially Ishmael, God established His Covenant (Promises), with Isaac, as he was the son of Promise and miracle!

Isaac had two sons, Esau and Jacob, and Jacob proved to be the continuance of God’s purpose, as he acknowledged God, and his name was changed to Israel, (Gen. 32:24-30).

Jacob/ Israel had 12 sons, who fathered the 12 tribes of Israel, and who served as slaves in Egypt for 400 years.

They were liberated by God, using as their representative to Pharaoh, Moses and his brother Aaron, (Exodus 1-14).

After their liberation from Egypt, God gave them The Law, and the instructions for conduct when they reached the “Promised Land”, which (they promised to keep, Deut. 1-34). In the same instructions were a reiteration of God’s promise of blessings for compliance, and warnings of consequences if they reneged! They did renege, and the consequence was the Babylonian exile for 70 years.

After their return to Jerusalem under Ezra and Nehemiah, they again reneged, and lived by their own interpretation of the Law and the Prophets, which got worse up to the advent of Jesus of Nazareth (Christ Jesus).

John the Baptist, Jesus (The Christ), and the Apostle Paul, tried to draw Israel back to Truth; but to no avail, and by approx. AD 62 the Jewish nation was disowned temporarily by God, because of their rejection of His Son, their Messiah!

They had been Commissioned by God to be His representatives on earth, and had instead joined the Enemy Satan, in corrupting God’s Word, as had happened in Eden!

The major element in their failure, was the use of their freewill to go against God’s Word, as had Satan, as had Adam and Eve in Eden!

The Third Stage, The Church Age.

At Acts 28:28, the Apostle Paul made a startling statement.

“Be it therefore known unto you, that the salvation of God is/was sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it”!

This statement is a turning point in the history of the Jewish people, as Paul refers in verses 25-27 to the prophecy of Isaiah (6:9-10), which meant that they were about to be “put to one side” (Lo-ammi), for a period of time for the denial of Jesus as their Messiah!

Hosea 4 describes their sad state, and v6 specifically details their rejection of Truth and knowledge of God, which is why they refused Christ Jesus, the Pharisaic leaders having miss-taught and misled the people by corrupting God’s Word and Law!

Hosea 1:9 describes this event figuratively, and v10-11 shows the readopting (Ammi) at a later date.

Currently nearly 2000 years have elapsed between v9 and v10-11, and is described in Chp. 3:4.

In Chp. 2, v19-23, and Chp. 3:5, is described the betrothal and readopting of the reunited 12 Tribes of Israel, in the yet future!

The failure of the Jews to be God’s representatives of Truth to the world, Hosea 4:1, meant that God in the Acts 28:28 pronouncement had appointed the Gentiles to be the next Stewards of His Plan to save humans.

The good news of the Sacrificial death of Jesus the Christ on the Calvary Cross, rejected by the Jews, was then to be carried to the world by the Gentile nations.

That is still the case, and although the simple truth of that event has been corrupted by particularly the Roman Church, and latterly by many Sects and Groupings, the Truth is still straight forward, and embodied in: Acts 4:12! “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved”!

This verse refers to Acts 4:10-11, which refers to Christ Jesus!

This is the crux of the matter; unfortunately, this truth is being increasingly neglected, and God’s defined method of salvation is not being preached or taught as God intended. Instead, a new teaching has emerged which states “there are many ways to God”! Some Pastors, Vicars etc. are happy to accept wrong Bible teaching, and people who believe many erroneous concepts, even witchcraft, but do not accept the truth of Acts 4:12!

It has been stated by one Methodist Pastor of the writer’s acquaintance, that the only ones not accepted are “fundamental Bible believing Christians, because they are too bigoted”!

So, the same thing is happening again; the Words of Scripture are being perverted for the convenience of men and Satan, (in this case the Ecumenical Movement under the auspices of the Roman Church), which is the same as Stages 1 & 2 above; the perversion and omission of the Words of God!

As in the examples of 1&2, God Almighty will make a change to ensure that His Plan of Redemption is completed, but as also shown above, it will not happen until the right stage has been reached, as shown with the Jews in Acts 28.

The reason for the failures

In the stages 1,2&3 above, conflict against God and His Truth, in conjunction with Satan perverting God’s Words, produces only failure and death!

The solution is provided by God in the person of Jesus the Christ, His only begotten Son (1 John 4:9).

Most people in the world are in mortal conflict with God, because they cannot accept His way of salvation! They feel that they must earn the result, or do something to obtain the “reward”, and then “they” feel o.k., and can accept such a reward “by their own efforts”.

Some feel that they can “link to God, without the need to go through a mediator”, (particularly New Age adherents).

However, God says that “all our righteousness are as filthy rags”, Isa.64:6.

People do not accept, or know, that they are fallen (Eden), and in need of a supernatural solution!

That “supernatural solution”, is Christ Jesus!

He is provided in Love by God the Father, and is Himself the solution!

“God will provide Himself a Lamb” Gen. 22:8.

“Your Lamb shall be without blemish” Ex. 12:5.

“Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world” Jhn.1:29 & 36.

Those people that can accept Christ Jesus in simple trust and faith, are “sealed in heavenly places” Eph. 4:30.

1) 2Cor. 1:22, sealed and given the earnest (2Cor. 5: 5) of the Spirit in our hearts!

2) Eph.1-13, sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise!

3) Eph. 4:30-32, God for Christ’s sake has forgiven you!

After that has happened, God gives the Christ Spirit to each of His people (Christians), and “the earnest (2 Cor. 5:5 ) & (2 Cor. 1:22 )”, which is “a foretaste and pledge of God’s future benefit”, which is locked into place in heaven!

In the meantime; Christians live with their old natures, but instead of warring against God in partnership with Satan, they war against themselves, in partnership with Christ’s Spirit!

The great Apostle Paul relates this conflict in

Romans 7:15-17, and bemoans the fact.

However, the “faith” of the Christian is in Christ Jesus, and He is the totally sufficient solution, and has satisfied our totally Holy God’s requirements for Christians to be seen as totally redeemed in His sight!

God the Father in heaven, places great value in the faith of a person in Him!

This is seen in the Scriptures; there is in all the OT the hint of God’s acceptance of simple faith, back to righteous Abel, and Enoch!

FAITH!

Hebrews 11 gives a list of the men of faith who are well known, including

Rahab the harlot.

Abram trusted God, and by faith left his household in Ur, on the word of God alone!

About 1500 years later, Habakkuk, stated, “The just shall live by faith”.

So: there is warfare between the flesh and the Spirit, as Paul described in Rom. 7, but, the solution is in the victory of Christ Jesus:

1 Cor. 15:57: “but thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ”! This is the victory over death in context, but, is code defacto for victory also over Satan!

How so?

Almighty God in Christ achieved the victory at the Calvary Cross, in the taking of the sins of the world on Himself.

He arose, and now sits at the right hand of the Father in heaven, awaiting His next function, (Seal release, when His enemies are made His footstool).

All who will may turn to Him at present, and obtain everlasting life, as part of His Body, (by faith alone, Rom. 1:17, Gal.3:11, Heb. 10:38 ).

Our failures (as Paul described) He will forgive, as He is faithful and just: 1Jn. 1:9-10, also the final refining, 2 Cor. 5-10.

In the Capernaum Synagogue, our Lord stated that His Body and Blood was to be eaten and drunk for life to be obtained! This causing quite a stir! He explained to those that would listen, that His Words were/are His Body and Blood! He states clearly, that the flesh “profited nothing”, but that He/ the Word made flesh, is the true bread!

(His Word/s to be “eaten and drunk").





So we see that the Ages old conflict between Almighty God and Satan is coming to a Climax; many think very soon!

However; in the process, many good hearted people (including Christians) are being drawn into the plans of Satan, and are aiding his efforts on earth at this present time!



How, you may say?



Leaving aside the many obvious ways that Christians can be laid low by the enticements of Satan, the most dangerous way at present for both individuals and Groups, is probably the Ecumenical Movement!

This may on first viewing be seen as a rather fallacious statement; but on careful examination shows to be accurate.

Not many people know that the movement is led by the Roman Church, albeit rather surreptitiously. This fact can be verified by reference to various Web Sites, under Google. They have kept the facts well covered until the 1950s, but are now more open re their objectives. As any knowledgeable Christian knows, the Roman Church Teachings are not compatible with the Truth of Scripture; and their Teachings are embodied in the following: http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Why%20the%20Roman%20Catholic%20church%20is%20not%20of%20God%20Almighty.htm



As is well known and documented in Church and World History, the excesses and cruelty of Rome when their grip on the European population decreased after Martin Luther; led to the appalling torture of many true Christ-Ones in the Inquisition! These brave men and women would not denounce their trust in the Saviour, Christ Jesus, and Acts 4:12!!



This verse in Holy Scripture, is the one which defines the whole of the New Testament message to the world, and clearly states the mind of Almighty God in His Plan for the salvation of mankind; and is why Satan wants all church groups to not adhere to its straight forward and stark message.

There is no other Name under heaven for a person to be saved than that of Christ Jesus!

Acts 4: 10-12.
 

Wormwood

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Floyd,

I suggest that if you want to engage in this dialogue or have someone read your comments that you make your comments more concise. Very few (including myself) are willing to read 20 pages of material in one post. The beauty of this format is that you have opportunity to respond and you don't have to say everything there is to say in one post.
 

Purity

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Floyd.

You mentioned the trinity as being "Scriptural" and within the context of the Bible, am I reading you correct?

Purity
 

Floyd

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Hello Purity.
Yes, I believe so.
I can put up some interesting info. if you wish?
Floyd.
 

Wormwood

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Has nothing to do with one's attention span. It has to do with this format being a dialogue, not a monologue. Not only is reading a single post for 15 minutes time consuming, but it also makes responding incredibly difficult. How can I respond concisely to 20 pages of information...especially if I disagree with most of it? I am not saying don't post your ideas, but maybe just one at a time. Reading these posts at times is like trying to drink from a fire hose.
 

Purity

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Floyd said:
Hello Purity.
Yes, I believe so.
I can put up some interesting info. if you wish?
Floyd.
I don't wish to enter a lengthy discussion on the trinity suffice to say this - you cannot provide any Scripture context which supports the Catholic teaching of the Trinity - the Apostles Creed yes - but not the trinity.

Though I am fearful you will try ;)
 

Floyd

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I too Purity do not wish to enter a lengthy dialog on the "trinity".
I also do not support the R. Catholic Church; just the opposite!
No; to me, there are Scriptures that support a "plurality" of Godhead, which I have to say, I thought all or most true Christ-ones knew, or accepted!?
Two quick and easily read Scripture verses that make the point (if you accept Scripture as "God breathed") are: Gen.1:26; and 11:7; both state plurality.
Regards.
Floyd.
PS: as mentioned; I can post links of considerable substance, should you wish.
 

Purity

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Floyd said:
I too Purity do not wish to enter a lengthy dialog on the "trinity".
I also do not support the R. Catholic Church; just the opposite!
No; to me, there are Scriptures that support a "plurality" of Godhead, which I have to say, I thought all or most true Christ-ones knew, or accepted!?
Two quick and easily read Scripture verses that make the point (if you accept Scripture as "God breathed") are: Gen.1:26; and 11:7; both state plurality.
Regards.
Floyd.
PS: as mentioned; I can post links of considerable substance, should you wish.
Hi Floyd,

The plurality argument doesn't carry the weight Trinitarians infer as we both know Yahweh's name (Yahweh Elohim) is "I will be whom I will be", or "I will be known through a group of mighty ones". Where you place the Lord Jesus Christ in Gen 1:1,2 etc the Bible teaches clearly this plurality is the Angelic Host.

The word occurs some 2,470 times, and is related to El, might, power; but being plural (indicated by the additional im), it signifies "mighty ones". It is a word applied to the angels who are mighty ones, being strengthened by Yahweh to become such.

It ironic this thread is about context and now we are discussing how Christians have wrested the context of so many passages to force Jesus in Genesis - the extent people will go to uphold error:

Elohim is used of men (Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 1 Sam. 28:13-14; Psa. 45:6-7; 82:1,6; 97:7,9; 136:2 — cp. John 10:33-35); translated "judges" (Exod. 21:6; 22:8-9; 1 Sam. 2:25); "gods" (Gen. 3:5; Exod. 32:8,23,31; Deut. 10:17); "angels" (Psa. 8:5; cp. Judges 13:21-22) etc. Therefore its use, in regard to the Lord, does not support Trinitarian teaching; for though Jesus was called "God" (John 20:28), so also was Moses (Exod. 7:1). The Lord himself went to pains to explain the significance of the term, pointing out the fact that the Old Testament Scriptures applied it to men (John 10:33-35).

Happy for you to test the context of each of those passages ;)

Purity
 

Floyd

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As you know Purity, Moses was a "God to Pharaoh", for the purpose of spiritual battle ensuing. As a man he died, as is the way of "all flesh". "It is given unto men once to die, then the judgement".
I hope you are not an Arian?
Regards.
Floyd.

Arianism, and Arius (4th century CE)



The history of this movement, and its propagator, is given in the following extraction from the Encyclopedia Britannica. The crux of the matter is the premise by Arius that Jesus was “a” son of God, as opposed to “The” Son of God. In effect Arius was proposing that Jesus as “Christ” (the Anointed or Elect) was not co-equal to God, and was not therefore “Divine”.



Arianism was a Christian heresy first proposed early in the 4th century by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius. It affirmed that Christ is not truly divine but a created being. The fundamental premise of Arius was the uniqueness of God, who is alone self-existent and immutable. The Son, who is not self-existent, cannot be God.



An ascetical, moral leader of a Christian community in the area of Alexandria, Arius attracted a large following through a message integrating Neoplatonism, which accented the absolute oneness of the divinity as the highest perfection, with a literal, rationalist approach to the New Testament texts. Christ was viewed as the most perfect creature in the material world, whose moral integrity led him to be "adopted" by God as a son but who nevertheless remained a secondary deity, or Logos substantially unlike the eternal, uncreated Father and subordinate to his will. Because the Godhead is unique, it cannot be shared or communicated so that the Son cannot be God. Because the Godhead is immutable, the Son, who is mutable (being represented in the Gospels as subject to growth and change) cannot be God. The Son must, therefore, be deemed a creature who has been called into existence out of nothing and has had a beginning. Moreover, the Son can have no direct knowledge of the Father since the Son is finite and of a different order of existence. This thesis was publicized ~323 through the poetic verse of his major work, Thalia (Banquet), and was widely spread by the tactic of popular songs written for laborers and travelers.



According to its opponents, especially Athanasius, Arius' teaching reduced the Son to a demigod, reintroduced polytheism (since the worship of the Son was not abandoned), and undermined the Christian concept of redemption since only Christ who was truly God could redeem the world. From the outset, the controversy between both parties took place upon the common basis of the Neoplatonic concept of ousia ("substance" or "stuff"), which was foreign to the New Testament itself.



Following an exchange of condemnations (323-324) between the Arians and various gatherings of clergy in Egypt, Palestine, and Syria, Constantine, eager for unity and peace, sent emissaries to mediate the conflict. This effort failed, and he summoned the Council of Nicaea (the First Ecumenical Council) in May 325, to settle what he termed "a fight over trifling and foolish verbal differences". The bishops issued a creed to safeguard orthodox Christian belief. This creed states that the Son is homoousion to Patri (of one substance with the Father), thus declaring him to be all that the Father is: he is completely divine. When Arius refused to sign the creed, the bishops declared him a heretic and exiled him and the Arian leaders. This seemed to end the controversy, but it was only the beginning of a long-protracted dispute.



Although the Arian leaders were exiled, they tried by intrigue to return to their churches and sees and to banish their enemies. They were partly successful. Influential support from colleagues in Asia Minor and from Constantia, the Emperor's daughter, succeeded in effecting Arius' return from exile and his readmission into the church after consenting to a compromise formula, despite the opposition from Athanasius. Shortly before he was to be reconciled, however, Arius collapsed and died while walking through the streets of Constantinople in 336.



When Constantine died in 337, Constans became emperor in the West and Constantius II became emperor in the East. The former was sympathetic to the orthodox Christians and the latter to the Arians. At a council held at Antioch (341), an affirmation of faith that omitted the homoousion clause was issued. Another council was held at Sardica in 342, but little was achieved by either council.

In 350 Constantius II became sole ruler of the empire, and under his leadership the Nicene party (orthodox Christians) was largely crushed. The extreme Arians then declared that the Son was anomoios (unlike) the Father. These Anomoeans succeeded in having their views endorsed at Sirmium in 357, but their extremism stimulated the moderates, who asserted that the Son was homoiousios (of similar substance) with the Father, and conservatives, who asserted that the Son was homoios (like) the Father. Constantius at first supported the Homoiousians but soon transferred his support to the Homoenas, led by Acacius. Their views were approved in 360 at Constantinople, where all previous creeds were rejected, the term ousia ("substance" or "stuff") was repudiated, and a statement of faith was issued stating that the Son was "like the Father who begot him".



After Constantius' death in 361, the orthodox Christian majority in the West consolidated its position. The Arian persecution conducted by Emperor Valens (364-378) in the East and the success of the teaching of Basil the Great of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus led the Homoiousian majority in the East to realize its fundamental agreement with the Nicene party. When the emperors Gratian (367-383) and Theodosius I (379-395) took up the defense of orthodoxy, Arianism collapsed. In 381 the Second Ecumenical Council met at Constantinople. Arianism was proscribed and the Nicene Creed was approved.



Although this ended the heresy in the empire, Arianism continued among some of the Germanic tribes to the end of the 7th century. In modern times some Unitarians are virtually Arians in that they are unwilling either to reduce Christ to a mere human being or to attribute to him a divine nature identical with that of the Father. The Christology of the Jehovah's Witnesses is also a form of Arianism; they regard Arius as a forerunner of Charles Taze Russell, the founder of their movement.



There are still some who claim that Arius was correct, and of course the above mentioned groupings or “Sects” are well known. Some go further, and state that they have “proof” of Arius’s assertion. Proof or otherwise in the temporal sense, could only be ascertained from documentation, which is accepted as “genuine”, and such documentation does apparently exist in the form of “Pshitta”, called by some “A”, which is derived from the “Old Syriacs”. The dating of these is in dispute, and range from just after the execution of Christ, to AD 400 approx.

Regarding our western Bibles, one theory holds that these are derived from the “Pshitto”, called by some “O”, translated to the Greek, followed by Latin, and then the languages of Europe. Others maintain that the originals were in Greek. See:

Ancient Aramaic Manuscripts, Pshitta “O” and “A”



The assertion of Arius, negating the Divinity of Christ, has been possible to be re-examined in the “temporal” sense, since the availability of the “Old Syriac Pshitta A”. Translations have been produced since the 1800s, but only two are recorded using the “A” document. The first by Dr. George Lamsa, (1892-1975), who as a native Turk spoke Syrian Aramaic, and was a member of the Syrian church of the East. His translation has the question mark against it, as to how close Syriac Aramaic is to Palestinian Aramaic. Also, his rendering of Christ’s utterances on the cross are different to the accepted.



The second is by Victor Alexander, an ancient languages scholar, who has produced a recent translation, see Supporters Page : (Translation of the Pshitta, by Victor Alexander).



The interesting point about these translations is the way they treat John 17:14. Victor Alexander’s renders the words of Christ; “I have given them your Trinity”, which goes to the heart of the above debate! Lamsa, shows “your word”. Murdock and Etheridge, using the “O” document show, “your word”.



In the “Spiritual” sense, the “Trinity” is not doubted. This latter translation is timely, as confirmation of what is implicit in both Old and New Testaments, regarding the Triune God. See; The Triune God;
 

Purity

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Floyd said:
As you know Purity, Moses was a "God to Pharaoh", for the purpose of spiritual battle ensuing. As a man he died, as is the way of "all flesh". "It is given unto men once to die, then the judgement".
I hope you are not an Arian?
Regards.
Floyd.
I had a little chuckle when reading you above remarks because you say Moses was like a God to Pharaoh in regards to the spiritual battle then proceeded to deny him being God because 1. He was a man 2. He died.

Now I don't know what mode of religion you have been trained in but the Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches to those two points.

1. "For there is one God and one intermediary between God and humanity, Christ Jesus, himself human" or as the AV "The Man Christ Jesus"
2. "But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs."

So on both points you are correct - Moses though being called God was not - Even Jesus was referred to as being God though he was not.

Arianism, and Arius (4th century CE)
No sorry not an Arian.

In regards to the history why don't you put up the history of the councils where the Trinitarian doctrine was formulated?

Makes for interesting reading ;)

Purity